Unemployment and Benefits

[Hugo]

No

Because that wouldn't work Steve

"Lose their benefits"

What are they going to do then? Starve? Let their Children starve? Are we going to allow that?
Are they? Or will they turn to crime and start burgling and mugging good working people like me and you Steve?

If you get JSA or the equivalent then I thought that you were supposed to be available for work.    If you choose to refuse work knowing the consequences then that is the decision of the claimant surely?

[Ian]

"Lose their benefits"

What are they going to do then? Starve? Let their Children starve? Are we going to allow that? Are they? Or will they turn to crime and start burgling and mugging good working people like me and you Steve?

It's worth looking at Britain prior to the welfare state for answers. In Dickens' time, the workhouse was the only option, and many died in work-related incidents, or starved to death. In the UK the Children Act currently makes it impossible to stop benefits to families with children and those who think we spend too much on welfare should be aware that we spend in total less than half the average of the developed world.

The US is the other place to watch. All the same arguments regarding the work-shy, single parent families, too many benefits, etc. exist over there and what I personally find most interesting are two things: in one of the most technologically advanced countries there is a marked lack of research which clearly establishes links between welfare payments and reluctance to work. The second thing is that the US has experimented with alternatives, and frequently both proponents and opponents used exactly the same research to prove their points. In other words, although there may well be strong perceptions about the effects of benefits, and occasional, cherry-picked examples of ne'er do wells and spongers the truth is that there is no solid evidence to prove one way or another the effects of a welfare system on the desire or otherwise to work.

[SteveH]

Because that wouldn't work Steve
"Lose their benefits"
What are they going to do then? Starve? Let their Children starve? Are we going to allow that?
Are they? Or will they turn to crime and start burgling and mugging good working people like me and you Steve?

I am not saying "lose" but..." a system where they have to "volunteer" their time and skills, or lose their benefits."
Starving children ..of course not, but is that not social welfare rather than unemployment benefit.
The turning to crime issue is very real, but is that not part of what we have created, and in a sense "being held to ransom"
I have a little knowledge of benefits abroad....I believe in Spain if you become unemployed, the amount of benefit and the time you can claim is based on what you have paid in, other countries have various systems, but why do they all want to come here.

[born2run]

This is like Daily Mail roulette. We've gone from unemployment benefits to immigration in one swift spin.

[SteveH]

This is like Daily Mail roulette. We've gone from unemployment benefits to immigration in one swift spin.

Sorry B2R, do not want to go there, used only to make a point on the benefit issue.

[born2run]

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3188/Perceptions-are-not-reality-the-top-10-we-get-wrong.aspx

An interesting article showing how WRONG most people's perceptions are

"3.       Job-seekers allowance: 29% of people think we spend more on JSA than pensions, when in fact we spend 15 times more on pensions (£4.9bn vs £74.2bn)[iv].
4.       Benefit fraud: people estimate that 34 times more benefit money is claimed fraudulently than official estimates: the public think that £24 out of every £100 spent on benefits is claimed fraudulently, compared with official estimates of £0.70 per £100[v].
7.       Immigration and ethnicity: the public think that 31% of the population are immigrants, when the official figures are 13%[viii]. Even estimates that attempt to account for illegal immigration suggest a figure closer to 15%.  There are similar misperceptions on ethnicity: the average estimate is that Black and Asian people make up 30% of the population, when it is actually 11% (or 14% if we include mixed and other non-white ethnic groups)[ix].

This is my personal favourite

9.       Benefit bill: people are most likely to think that capping benefits at £26,000 per household will save most money from a list provided (33% pick this option), over twice the level that select raising the pension age to 66 for both men and women or stopping child benefit when someone in the household earns £50k+.  In fact, capping household benefits is estimated to save £290m[xi], compared with £5bn[xii] for raising the pension age and £1.7bn[xiii] for stopping child benefit for wealthier households.

[SteveH]

Very interesting article, makes you think "look before you leap"

A personal thought from my past, I would have put money on the government changing the retirement age for those born in 1946/47 the post war baby boom, it would have saved them millions or even billions, and I am still pleasantly surprised that they did not.
A small point I would like to make on pensions, is although it appears to be a very high figure, £74bn.those receiving pensions have paid in to the system in some cases, for up to 50 years.
In Mrs S's case, her pension age was raised from 60 to 67 a loss of approx £35.000 pa.over the 7years, there is a thought that when you start the "contract" for a pension, they should not be able to "move the goal posts" later.?

Disability pensions,....later

[Ian]

A lot of the things people perceive are down to the DFM...

[SteveH]

A lot of the things people perceive are down to the DFM...

DFM....? sorry not sure.

[born2run]

Stands for the Daily Flipping Mail 

They follow a set pattern of scare mongering stories daily - usually involving immigrants and the jobless

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792030/jeremy-hunt-warns-ebola-outbreak-deadly-worldwide-aids-epidemic-killed-30million-screening-starts-heathrow.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792593/mother-11-says-s-easy-claim-benefits-plans-bumper-christmas-spending-4-000-taxpayers-cash-children-s-presents-including-ipads-gold-bracelets.html

For example the two stories above are straight from the top of their page today! But everyday is the same in DFM land

[SteveH]

  B2R. felt a bit dumb not knowing!    

[Ian]

Stands for the Daily Flipping Mail

Mmmmm...close enough, I suppose...

[DaveR]

Most newspapers are full of rubbish. No-one, of course, is forced to read them. 

[Ian]

Most newspapers are full of rubbish. No-one, of course, is forced to read them.

The danger is the influence these nasty little, spite-filled organs of bile have on politicians, who assume people do read them and - in the case of the DFM - sometimes even believe the festering ejaculate on which they thrive. Fortunately, since the Murdock slime has been reduced by one - the NOTW - the DFM is the worst of the remaining carrion so anyone with more than a room temperature IQ is able to see through their venomous poison.

[SteveH]

The danger is the influence these nasty little, spite-filled organs of bile have on politicians, who assume people do read them and - in the case of the DFM - sometimes even believe the festering ejaculate on which they thrive. Fortunately, since the Murdock slime has been reduced by one - the NOTW - the DFM is the worst of the remaining carrion so anyone with more than a room temperature IQ is able to see through their venomous poison.

Ian.....Brilliant, love it.....