Author Topic: Police Effectiveness  (Read 74481 times)

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Offline DaveR

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2010, 10:30:44 am »
Even with the CCTV footage handed to the north wales police at the Old White House no arrests have been made.
I saw a still from the CCTV footage in the Daily Post on Saturday and it looked to be very poor quality - I can't see how it could be used as evidence in anything. Businesses like pubs need to have the latest cctv equipment and make sure it works properly.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2010, 10:36:28 am »
i am an advocate for naming and shaming, it might not stop them but it might deter others from following a similar route

I disagree. It woud be too easy for someone with a grudge against someone else to post their name and make up stories about what they have or haven't done. This could start a snowballing rumour against an innocent person.

I am very careful not to state anybody's name. The issue here is about police effectivness and the difficulties faced by them prosecuting.
I'd agree with that. Just to add that we cannot have any names published on the Forum, as that would be libellous.

Anyone with information relating to the perpetrators of a crime should contact the local Police:
http://www.north-wales.police.uk/nwpv2/en/nptSearch/wardResults.asp?ID=13&WID=C05

or Crimestoppers:
 http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/in-your-area/wales


Offline Dave

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2010, 10:46:47 am »

If the former manager of the Blue Bell was prepared to stand up to attempts of extortion I presume he was prepared to speak to the police. Trapping the guilty would then have been pretty easy I would have thought. Did he do so ? It's only suggested the police got wind of a vigilante movement which they had no option but to stop. No matter how we feel, taking the law into our own hands is not an option and certainly not if the matter hasn't been passed on to the law to deal with.
The police are powerless if they don't have witnesses to come forward and tell them what is going on

The former landlord of the Blue Bell did tell the police they were being extorted. The police told them that if there was any trouble (ie if someone shows up in the middle of the night smashing windows) the landlord should call them and they would investigate.

As has been demonstrated by what happend at the Old White House every single window of that pub was smashed in a total of 19 seconds. Do you really think the police can respond in that time? Even with the CCTV footage handed to the north wales police at the Old White House no arrests have been made.

So the former Blue Bell landlord decided to not to wait for the extortionists to smash their windows and instead called in a few rough mates to stand guard. The police decided that having pub windows smashed or paying the extortionists was better than a confrontation and told the former Blue Bell manager to stand down. He did so and left Conwy in disgust.

Everybody in Conwy knows who smashed up the Old White House and there is even CCTV footage of the event. And yet there are no arrests. I'm sure the north wales police will shrug their shoulders and say 'there's not enough evidence to prosecute' yet again and this family will continue to extort pubs just like they have been doing for years and years and years. Of course the 'not enough evidence' excuse can work a few times over a couple of years but after it's been this long you really have to wonder why there is not enough evidence and why the police refuse to prosecute....

Interesting stuff. I am sure we would all like to know the Police's perspective on what you have reported.


Yorkie

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2010, 12:20:24 pm »
I'd agree with that. Just to add that we cannot have any names published on the Forum, as that would be libellous.

It would only be libelous, or constitute an offence against the Defamation Act, if it were untrue.   If the comment will stand up to proof there is no problem.

Defamation Law is quite interesting and worth a read.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2010, 12:38:31 pm »
I'd agree with that. Just to add that we cannot have any names published on the Forum, as that would be libellous.

It would only be libelous, or constitute an offence against the Defamation Act, if it were untrue.   If the comment will stand up to proof there is no problem.

Defamation Law is quite interesting and worth a read.
That may be the case but the Admins are not in a position to be able to prove the validity or otherwise of any allegation, therefore we have no option but to remove all potentially libellous comments.

Yorkie

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2010, 01:46:28 pm »
Of course, I do realise that - I was merely outlining the legal standpoint!      ZXZ

Offline Ian

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2010, 01:47:30 pm »
Quote
It would only be libelous, or constitute an offence against the Defamation Act, if it were untrue.   If the comment will stand up to proof there is no problem.

Neither is it quite that simple.  I refer the honourable member to the case of one Jeffrey Archer, who sued and won substantial damages over an alleged libel some years ago (Archer sued the Daily Star. The case came to court in July 1987. Archer won the case and was awarded £500,000 damages.).  On 26 September 2000, he was charged with perjury and perverting the course of justice during the 1987 libel trial.

The perjury trial began on 30 May 2001 and Archer was found guilty of perjury and perverting the course of justice at the 1987 trial. He was sentenced to four years' imprisonment by Mr Justice Potts.

This was a celebrated case, but there are doubtless many others, of which we never hear. 
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2010, 01:52:15 pm »
Quote
Everybody in Conwy knows who smashed up the Old White House

Do they?  Really?

It's never ceased to amaze me how 'everyone knows' something yet when prod comes to impale the 'everyone' suddenly becomes a 'few', and most of those 'heard it from a mate'. 

If there's evidence, the culprits can be done.  Simple. If - on the other hand - it's simply 'pub gossip' - and we all know how reliable that can be - then it's no surprise, surely,  that no one's been caught.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Pendragon

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2010, 03:12:40 pm »






 and this family will continue to extort pubs just like they have been doing for years and years and years.



I think this is getting blown out of proportion were not dealing with gangsters and the like. get a grip. were dealing with small time t*ssers. Neither do I believe that pubs in Conwy are under threat from extortionists, I mean has any one asked the other landlords in Conwy if they know of a protection raquet. Well I HAVE and there isn't one. Basically the Blue Bell has a high turnover of landlords and manangers, some of the lads try to intimidate the new licensees but this happens in any pub you take over, you'll suddenly find you have a bar full of pubsafe members simply because they know you don't know them from Adam. Ken (landlord now, really nice guy) was asked if he needed door staff, being an ex Outlaw and well connected he said no. Nothing was said about protection just door staff. That came from the horses mouth. Hayden had his windows put through because he upset a couple of lads by not allowing them in one weekend. I'm not condoning their actions far from it, but to insinuate that this is all some big protection racket is ridiculous it also gives all these "no marks" more noteriety which is the last thing anyone wants. Incidentally as I understand it the last manager in the blue bell left as drugs were rife in there and he could not curb it on his own with no help from the police, he was told his windows were going to get smashed as he wouldn't turn a blind eye to the dealing going on in there.
Only hindsight has 20/20 vision
Angiegram - A romantic notion derived from the more mundane truth.

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

Yorkie

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2010, 07:50:51 am »
Where I was brought up we had a couple of lads who started out just as the kids here are going on.  They finished up in clink eventually and were so notorious they had a film made about them.  Their family name only had four letters - K R A Y -  nuff said!    $uk

Offline MrFalafel

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2010, 09:35:39 am »






 and this family will continue to extort pubs just like they have been doing for years and years and years.



I think this is getting blown out of proportion were not dealing with gangsters and the like. get a grip. were dealing with small time t*ssers. Neither do I believe that pubs in Conwy are under threat from extortionists, I mean has any one asked the other landlords in Conwy if they know of a protection raquet. Well I HAVE and there isn't one. Basically the Blue Bell has a high turnover of landlords and manangers, some of the lads try to intimidate the new licensees but this happens in any pub you take over, you'll suddenly find you have a bar full of pubsafe members simply because they know you don't know them from Adam. Ken (landlord now, really nice guy) was asked if he needed door staff, being an ex Outlaw and well connected he said no. Nothing was said about protection just door staff. That came from the horses mouth. Hayden had his windows put through because he upset a couple of lads by not allowing them in one weekend. I'm not condoning their actions far from it, but to insinuate that this is all some big protection racket is ridiculous it also gives all these "no marks" more noteriety which is the last thing anyone wants. Incidentally as I understand it the last manager in the blue bell left as drugs were rife in there and he could not curb it on his own with no help from the police, he was told his windows were going to get smashed as he wouldn't turn a blind eye to the dealing going on in there.

The new landlords of the Bridge were threatened by the same people.
The last landlords of the Albiion were threatened by the same people
The Old White House landlords were not only threatened but gave into the threats by these people. I was told this directly by the landlords in question.

The Bridge said no and the Albion said no and banned those people from their pubs and received many very scary threats. The Old White House mistakenly submitted to the threats and the extortionists started hanging out at the pub which forced the few regulars elsewhere.

None of this is news, the police have been told all about this and yet have done nothing except say 'call if there is trouble'.

Yes it is small time thugs doing this but that doesn't make it any more scary for those involved. Putting it down to a few kids is a big mistake especially considering the patriarch of the family involved is being investigated for very serious charges for a range of long term criminal activities.

There are people in town who are very scared of these people who will not give evidence and others who are indirectly benefitting from their activies so provide a level of protection. This criminal family is embedded into the local economy in such a way that it would be surprising if members of the north wales police were not some how involved.

Yorkie

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2010, 12:58:47 pm »
Quote
It would only be libelous, or constitute an offence against the Defamation Act, if it were untrue.   If the comment will stand up to proof there is no problem.

Neither is it quite that simple.  I refer the honourable member to the case of one Jeffrey Archer, who sued and won substantial damages over an alleged libel some years ago (Archer sued the Daily Star. The case came to court in July 1987. Archer won the case and was awarded £500,000 damages.).  On 26 September 2000, he was charged with perjury and perverting the course of justice during the 1987 libel trial.
The perjury trial began on 30 May 2001 and Archer was found guilty of perjury and perverting the course of justice at the 1987 trial. He was sentenced to four years' imprisonment by Mr Justice Potts.
This was a celebrated case, but there are doubtless many others, of which we never hear. 

Whilst I respect the opinion of my Most Learned Friend, it must, of course, be realised that whilst Archer committed perjury at the initial trial this was unknown to the trial Judge and the case was, correctly at that time, and based on the evidence presented, found to be proved.  It was only at a later date, on the evidence of perjury having been committed that he was found guilty of that offence and convicted and punished accordingly.

And this is the 'onest tr oof Guv'!  L0L

Offline Ian

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2010, 07:19:30 pm »
Ah yes, but it does go to show that the truth - as such - has little bearing on your safety when defending a libel case. The real truth only emerged when Archer's mistress decided she'd had enough.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Trojan

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2011, 05:34:25 pm »
Where I was brought up we had a couple of lads who started out just as the kids here are going on.  They finished up in clink eventually and were so notorious they had a film made about them.  Their family name only had four letters - K R A Y -  nuff said!    $uk

There were a couple of notorious brothers south of the river around that time too!

Their family name had ten letters - R I C H A R D S O N - nuff said!

Yorkie

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Re: Police Effectiveness
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2011, 06:27:04 pm »
Interesting history of the Krays and the lesser known Richardsons at:
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/The_Richardson_Gang

Worth a read.    *&(

More than enuff said!    ;D