great orme cemetery

[Llechwedd]

The Mostyn papers are lodged at Hawarden archive.  You have to make an appointment as it is very small.  You can email a query there as I have in the past - most helpful.  They will get stuff ready for your visit.

[Nemesis]

Had to E Mail Motyn Estates this a.m. Auto reply received back--- I am not in the office till Sept. 6th !!
Grrrr :rage:

[Hugo]

Emma, I've been to the Archives again and passed on your thanks to Leyla.  While I was there I found out this info:-
I checked out the burial records for Richard, Ann and Betsy just to make sure that I had copied the dates out correctly which it turned out I had. Betsy was simply listed there as Betsy Roberts with no address etc  but I also came across this burial record which I'll translate for you.    At Section A grave No 051  was William son of Richard and Ann of Tynycoed who died aged 15 on 17th December 1877  also buried there in the same grave was Ann Roberts who died on the 16th May 1945 aged 61.
I didn't take a photo of the grave although I've got the exact location of it down on paper and it is further into the undergrowth than the grave of Richard.

I checked the 1911 and 1914 Street index and listed at 3 Ormonde Terrace Tyn y coed Road was Mrs Ann Roberts, her name was not listed in the 1922 Street index.  Your Ann would have died in 1917 so this may well be your relative. The Census of 1911 may help to confirm this.

Regarding the whereabouts of Rofft Bach, I'll quote the following extract from a book of streets in the Archives.
Rofft Place:-
In 1843 the rent of Rofft Farmstead was £4.10s.0d per annum!  The four houses here were built on the site of Rofft Bach
So that's the answer where Rofft Place is now was the site of Rofft Bach. 

[emma p]

hi hugo,
Thanks for this new info.
Ive been trying to get my head round it for 10 minutes !
This would fit as Enoch was living in Tynycoed when he married Mary in 1876 aged 23. This would make William his younger brother (poor lad). In 1860 Richard and Anne were living at 3, Pendyffryn and had 3 children at the time-
Elizabeth aged 9
Enoch aged 7
Evan aged 6mths
Richard was 44 but Ann was much younger than him (ill have to look back at your findings at Glanwydden cemetery, i havent written that down)
Just worked it out she was 31 in 1860. She died in 1917. So who is 'Ann' (b.1884 ?)
Could this be the 'grandaughter' living with them at Rofft Bach ?
Great to get that address.....3 ormonde terrace. Please tell me its still standing
Im gonna get my facts together and try to get it down in order......boy it gets confusing.
Cheers.

[emma p]

Just googled Ormonde Terrace.....and its still standing   D) Number 3 is called Gull Cottage. So this is the house Enoch was living in with his mom and dad when he married Mary Thomas.
Found the reference to 'Annie', grandaughter of Richard and Anne from older posts.
In 1891 census she is aged 4, so born 1887. Ann Roberts who is buried with William was 61 in 1945 so that puts her as being born in 1884 ? mmmmm
Also, would she be a Roberts ? no mention of the father. maybe im barking up the wrong tree.
Have we done 1881 census for Richard and Anne ? They must have moved from here to Rofft Bach as they were there by 1891.
Questions questions !!
Sorry i cant really do much from this end with no access to Ancestry and the like.
Gonna google Rofft Place now. I know that there is a way of getting the page on here but i havent got a clue !!! 

[emma p]

Been on ancestry this morning very quickly and found a possible record for William Roberts.
b.1862 d.1877 disrict of Conway
volume 11b p.361
Cant get any further unfortunately.

[DaveR]

Gonna google Rofft Place now. I know that there is a way of getting the page on here but i havent got a clue !!! 

rofft place - Google Maps

[Hugo]

I had a look at the 1841 Census to see if there was any other info about Richard but before I had a look  I read the bits at the bottom of the page which were:-
The ages of people over 15 years of age were usually rounded down to the nearest 5 years         therefore if someone who was actually 24 would have their age shown as 20. If they were 27 then their age would be shown as 25.    Doesn't really help when you're trying to trace someone now.
Anyway, I put in Richards details and out of 106 possibilities the nearest match was a Richard Roberts aged 30 living at Pen yr ogof Llandudno and working as an agricultural labourer. Living with him was Margaret Roberts also aged 30.
The Census did not stipulate the relationship between Richard and Margaret but it made me wonder because of the age gap between Richard and his wife Ann that perhaps it was Richard's second marriage.   
I'm not convinced that this is your Richard on the 1841 Census so I'll have another go soon,

[emma p]

mmm 

[Hugo]

Foe some reason I couldn't view the 1911 Census today so I looked at the Census for 1901 instead.  This is the info I found at 3 Ormonde Terrace:-
Ann Roberts   Head of house  Widow Aged 71  born Capel Garmon  Welsh speaking only
 
Elizabeth Roberts  Aged 50 born Llangystennin  S for marital status (single ? )   Laundress working for herself from home  Welsh speaking only

Annie Roberts   Aged 14  niece born Llandudno   still at school    both Welsh and English speaking

I went back to the Cemetery in Glanwydden and took these photos of William and Ann's grave.   The first photo is of the newest part and is ok to see. The second photo is of the earliest graves and is like a jungle.  The 3rd is the grave before I cleared the vegetation away and the 4th is the headstone. I'm just sorry about the quality of the photo.
Whatever you do Emma don't even consider going in there to have a look.  I wore protective clothing (except for gloves --ouch )  and I took my garden loppers in to cut my way through all the stuff. Just visit the Queens Head instead!     

 

[Hugo]

Some photos of Capel Garmon that I took on a walk up there

[Hugo]

Suepp, you're an expert on Ancestry and Census findings and I'm struggling at the moment.   I was hoping to find the 1831 Census on Ancestry but the earliest one I can find is for 1841.
I know that they did the Census before 1841, but is 1841 the earliest year on line?

[emma p]

Hugo,
these pictures are just beautiful and so kind to go there and do this for me. hope you didnt hurt yourself !
Capel Garmon looks a very pretty village.....its not far from Betws-y-coed if im right. ill look it up later. and that view from the graveyard just stunning.......add that to my must see list ! Good job were coming for a fortnight next summer !
Our 'Annie' is down as niece on that census.....wasnt she a grandaughter on an earlier one when she was 4 ? mmmm
This is most definately them dont you think ?
The houses in ormonde terrace - are they the original houses ? they look like they are.
Id say that Elizabeth is Betsy too, buried with her mom and dad.
Must try and find a marriage cert for richard and anne, but may be quite tricky.But knowing Richard was from Glanwydden and Annie was from Capol Garmon ill have a go and guess the year. If they were married in Glanwydden then Llandudno town hall should have a copy. Ill ring the nice man there again.
Hugo you are so lucky to be living in such a stunningly beautiful country.......i am very jealous.
 

[emma p]

PS. Have a definate date with The Queens Head.  D)

[Hugo]

I think that you can be sure that this Ann Roberts is your relative. Although I couldn't see the 1911 Census records I did see a summary of it and Ann was listed as living at Ormonde Terrace with two other females (probably Elizabeth and Annie)
Sounds like Elizabeth was a spinster but was Annie Elizabeth's  daughter?     
Capel Garmon is a very small village high above Betws Y Coed with stunning views over Snowdonia. Here's some more pics of the village including a much older burial ground.