Author Topic: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS  (Read 10914 times)

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Offline jom

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Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« on: August 27, 2016, 06:48:58 am »
I am trying to discover if Sarah Ann is my relation and also whether she may be the mother of family fable "Eric".

So far I have discovered that this couple were in 43, Clifton Rd, Llandudno in 1939 (1939 register).  This shows a son Robert Eric bn 1930.  I think this Sarah Ann was born DAVIES (although another surname listed is OWEN), and married Robert Edward in 1920, having done fairly rigorous searches for marriages.

My relations were Sally and son Eric bn abt 1928 and living in a B and B / guest house in about 1946.  Sally may have been born Sarah Ann DAVIES daughter of David and Emily Agnes (Owen) DAVIES of Ormonde Terrace.  She also had a daughter we believe.  Nothing is known by the family of her husband.  Eric was said to have fallen from the Orme collecting eggs, as a relatively young lad and sustained a head injury.  Any help would be most welcome but firstly I wonder if some one may be kins enough to look up 43 Clifton Road for me in the 1939 Directory if ther is one or one of a slightly later date.  I am interested to know if it was a B and B or Guest house.

Ever hopeful


Offline PhilMick

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2016, 08:46:50 am »
Hi Jom - http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,367.msg13162.html#msg13162

Could this be a distant cousin?

Look under the murder most foul on this forum:

..................................................

The murderer was John Thomas Davies, a 46 year old factory worker, of Clifton Road, Llandudno.

It was Llandudno's first recorded murder and took place at Jubilee House, 24 Lloyd Street, on June 2 1970.

The victim, 72 year old Mrs Florence Roberts, was stabbed twice by Davies, on his way to attack his 43 year old girlfriend who was also stabbed. His girlfriend however, recovered after hospital treatment.

Davies made his getaway aboard a Crosville bus, which was stopped by Police at Deganwy. Davies stated "I killed the wrong woman"

He pleaded guilty to murder at Chester Assizes Court, and was sentenced to life imprisonment.


Offline Cambrian

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2016, 08:54:04 am »
Jom,

A couple of things of interest:

Clifton Road was largely made up of guest houses and B&B properties, over the years many have been converted into flats and holiday flats.

In 1939, the head of household at 43 was Robert E Williams.  The property was also called "Windermere".

In the mid-1950s the head of household at 43 was J K Owen. By 1969 it was Ellen Hudson.

Possibly your family has a connection with J K Owen ?




Offline jom

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2016, 12:59:43 am »
Thank you Philmick and Cambrian. 
I've no idea re the murder but will investigate that article with great interest.  Our relative philmick or rather your wife's and mine (we are in touch via email and ancestry lol) is one Sarah Ann DAVIES daughter of Emily Agnes OWEN.  I suspect Sarah may have been known as Sally and therefore possibly the mother of the elusive Eric my mother recalls from her first and only meeting when she met her at the age of 16.  My Dad had taken her to Llandudno to meet relatives!  All a bit scary for her as this included his grandparents

As for the fact that no end of properties in Clifton St/Rd were guest houses, Cambrian, makes me feel I should obtain the certificate for one of the children ie Robert Eric perhaps or rather the marriage cert of his parents.  I have a feeling this may just be my mystery Eric whom my mother recalls.  Thank you both for your input.  Hopefully a brick wall demolished ... we shall see $good$

Offline jom

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2016, 10:47:48 pm »
Sorry Cambrian, have just re-read your kind response and realised that you don't specifically say whether or not 43 Clifton rd was a guest house in 1939.  I did understand that clifton road properties changed with some regularity to being guest house/ private/ flats/ appartments etc so whilst 1939 it may have been doesn't mean it was in 1948 when my mother visited IF this was in fact the right street and household!!!

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 09:05:19 am »
Jom,  Clifton Road is a street made up of large houses which years ago were either private houses or guest houses and even some of he private houses took in guests especially during the Summer months.
My relatives lived in a couple of the houses there and I had friends living there who also took in guests.
The conversion of some of the houses to flats and apartments mainly took place after the decline in the late 1960's of the holiday industry.
Before you go to the expense of getting any certificates etc let me have a look at some of the records in the Archives and see what I can find.
In you last posting you said "it was in 1948 when my mother visited IF this was in fact the right street and household!!!"
Is there a doubt now about the address because Cambrian has already established that there was a Robert E Williams at No 43 in 1939?     



Offline jom

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 10:32:31 am »
Sorry if my original request wasn't clear.

I am trying to find out who in my tree is Sally with a daughter , name unkown and a son Eric bn abt 1928ish. She had a guest house in about 1946/1948 ish but we don't know the street.  Having researched for many years, my best guess is that she was Sarah Ann Davies daughter of Emily Agnes and David Davies of Ormonde Terr from my tree
We don't know who Sarah's husband was. Too many options.

I have now found a family on the 1939 register who may fit ie Robert Edward snd Sarah Ann Williams who, with their son Robert Eric bn 1930 and a n other were living at 43 clifton rd. So I was wondering if 43 was a guest house. This may add to my suspicions that this family could be the one for whom I'm looking. I have actually sent for their marriage cert as I feel the chances of it being Sally and family are relatively good and worth the effort thanks to extra puzzle pieces supplied from Cambrian

In the meantime I have been researching further in my Owen tree and just discovered that my Sarah Ann had a cousin John K Owen (possibly John Kenneth) son of John ( known as Jack) and Bertha , nee Allen. I wonder if this is John K Owen who was at 43 clifton rd in the fifties thst Cambrian mentioned. Gosh things get complex don't they.

Anyway hope this clarifies my puzzle hence trying to find out if 43 specifically was a guest house and therefore increasing the chance that Sarah Ann Williams was in fact my mysterious Sally

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 11:45:02 am »
Thanks for clarifying that Jom,  I'll have a look in the Archives when I next go there and see what records are available that I can look at and will post it on here.
By the way, Clifton Road is facing the Archive building so I'll have a look at No 43 when I'm there.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 05:53:30 pm »
I went to the Archives today and had a look at some records and this is what I found:-

The Street Indexes for 1914 and 1929 show No 43 as Apartments.  In the 1939 street index it does not show any occupation so I assume that they were still apartments in the 1940's.
In the 1914 index the house was previously called Trevor House.
I took the two photos today of No 43,  it's the one with the umbrella outside.
In the 1914 Street Index living at Ormonde Terrace on the Great Orme were two families called Davies
At No  2 was Ed Davies a plumber
At No  6 was David Davies a cab driver

I looked at the Burial Indexes for St Tudno's and St Hilary's in Llanrhos but the graves were not listed in it.  The records are Church records but the family could still have been buried in the cemetery but in the Council owned part of it.

I looked at the Marriage Registers  for St George's Church and Holy Trinity Church but could find no entry for the marriage in either one.  I did not follow any more up as you said that you have applied for the Marriage Certificate so that should give the details on it.

I then had  a look at the Baptism records from 1920 to 1940 and there were only two entries registered for the family.  The first was for Awenna Williams   daughter of Robert Edward and Sarah Ann Williams of Wayside   Llwynon Road and his occupationwas a carter.
I couldn't read Awenna's name at first but checked it on the computer and she was born in June 1927.
Then there was Robert Eric's Baptism on 12th July 1931 and the family still lived at Llwynon Road. The father's occupation was Railway carter.
I had the records photocopied so that you could see all the details on the register.

I did not follow up on Robert Eric but hope that what I did find helps in some way

 

Offline jom

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2016, 01:13:28 am »
Well what can I say ... Once again the forum has hit gold for me.  Thank you ALL. 

Firstly The DAVIES family ie David and Emily - parents to my Sarah Ann whom I believe may be my mysterious Sally were at 6 Ormonde Terr. My mother recalls visiting in 1948 and census returns confirm this address.  David was often noted as a labourer (baptism records of their children) and on the 1911 Census was noted a a limestone quarryman.

2. David died before 1962 as Emily's probate noted her as a widow in 1962 when she died.  They had been married in sep qtr 1895

3. Robert Edward and Sarah Ann were married Mar Qtr 1920 and will update the forum if any one is interested when I receive the certificate.

4. I had noted Awenna previously as a potential candidate for another family mystery but had vaguely dismissed her as I believed her needing to have a brother Glyn which wouldn't fit this Awenna ... However we (ie the family) may have assumed the enigmatic photo of "Awenna and Glyn" that we possess, was of a brother and sister.  Who knows.  So I may have just discovered the identity of the photo of "Awenna" too ...

5.  I see from the BMD records that Awenna looks to have married a chap called Ewart F BALL in Sep Qtr 1950 in the Conway Valley District but can find no other trace of her.  Further investigation may be required if the arrival of the marriage certificate puts another piece in to this puzzle.

Thank you SO much.  You've all been great D)


Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2016, 07:45:45 am »
Jom, just a couple of add ons for your info.  Firstly Llwynon Road is just below Ormonde Terrace so the family were very near to each other location wise.
Secondly the Baptism records in the Archives go back to about 1700 so there is a lot of info there if you ever need it and most people then had their children baptised

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2016, 01:46:47 pm »
If you receive the Marriage Certificate for Robert Edward and Sarah, I'd be interested to see the address on it for Robert as there were a number of Williams' on the Great Orme (that's where Ormonde Terrace and Llwynon Road are).
Awenna is not a common Welsh girl's name so it's possible that another Awenna may be related, as families often named  their children after relatives, if you have any dates for her birth then it may be traceable either online or at the Archives

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2016, 03:27:23 pm »
Just a thought but could Awenna W Morris born in the Conway Registration District in the Q   Sept - Dec   1926 be any relation?

Offline rhuddlan

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2016, 05:56:38 pm »
 My curiosity made me look on the internet for an Awenna Ball and I found one mentioned in the Electoral registers for Chester.
I then had a look for the husband as his name is unusual to.
I found this :-

Their son, Ewart Jnr, married Awenna Jones from Llandudno and he worked at the Inland Revenue.  They had three children, Janet, Sheila and Trevor.  Sadly, Ewart died when he was in his early 40’s.  Awenna is now 80 years old and lives an active life in Chester.

For more info click on this site :-   scroll down to Harold for the above comment and continue scrolling down a bit to Ewart

http://www.kidsgrove.info/family/Ball.htm#ewartball

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Edward and Sarah Anne (Davies) WILLIAMS
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2016, 10:25:12 pm »
That's very interesting and a really good find Rhuddlan and it helps a lot in research when the people you are looking for have unusual names like Awenna and Ewart.
Ewart  F Ball was born in Chester in 1926  (Q  July to Sept)  so there must have been a strong connection to Chester or perhaps his work took him there.