Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: jom on August 27, 2016, 06:48:58 am
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I am trying to discover if Sarah Ann is my relation and also whether she may be the mother of family fable "Eric".
So far I have discovered that this couple were in 43, Clifton Rd, Llandudno in 1939 (1939 register). This shows a son Robert Eric bn 1930. I think this Sarah Ann was born DAVIES (although another surname listed is OWEN), and married Robert Edward in 1920, having done fairly rigorous searches for marriages.
My relations were Sally and son Eric bn abt 1928 and living in a B and B / guest house in about 1946. Sally may have been born Sarah Ann DAVIES daughter of David and Emily Agnes (Owen) DAVIES of Ormonde Terrace. She also had a daughter we believe. Nothing is known by the family of her husband. Eric was said to have fallen from the Orme collecting eggs, as a relatively young lad and sustained a head injury. Any help would be most welcome but firstly I wonder if some one may be kins enough to look up 43 Clifton Road for me in the 1939 Directory if ther is one or one of a slightly later date. I am interested to know if it was a B and B or Guest house.
Ever hopeful
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Hi Jom - http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,367.msg13162.html#msg13162 (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,367.msg13162.html#msg13162)
Could this be a distant cousin?
Look under the murder most foul on this forum:
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The murderer was John Thomas Davies, a 46 year old factory worker, of Clifton Road, Llandudno.
It was Llandudno's first recorded murder and took place at Jubilee House, 24 Lloyd Street, on June 2 1970.
The victim, 72 year old Mrs Florence Roberts, was stabbed twice by Davies, on his way to attack his 43 year old girlfriend who was also stabbed. His girlfriend however, recovered after hospital treatment.
Davies made his getaway aboard a Crosville bus, which was stopped by Police at Deganwy. Davies stated "I killed the wrong woman"
He pleaded guilty to murder at Chester Assizes Court, and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
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Jom,
A couple of things of interest:
Clifton Road was largely made up of guest houses and B&B properties, over the years many have been converted into flats and holiday flats.
In 1939, the head of household at 43 was Robert E Williams. The property was also called "Windermere".
In the mid-1950s the head of household at 43 was J K Owen. By 1969 it was Ellen Hudson.
Possibly your family has a connection with J K Owen ?
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Thank you Philmick and Cambrian.
I've no idea re the murder but will investigate that article with great interest. Our relative philmick or rather your wife's and mine (we are in touch via email and ancestry lol) is one Sarah Ann DAVIES daughter of Emily Agnes OWEN. I suspect Sarah may have been known as Sally and therefore possibly the mother of the elusive Eric my mother recalls from her first and only meeting when she met her at the age of 16. My Dad had taken her to Llandudno to meet relatives! All a bit scary for her as this included his grandparents
As for the fact that no end of properties in Clifton St/Rd were guest houses, Cambrian, makes me feel I should obtain the certificate for one of the children ie Robert Eric perhaps or rather the marriage cert of his parents. I have a feeling this may just be my mystery Eric whom my mother recalls. Thank you both for your input. Hopefully a brick wall demolished ... we shall see $good$
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Sorry Cambrian, have just re-read your kind response and realised that you don't specifically say whether or not 43 Clifton rd was a guest house in 1939. I did understand that clifton road properties changed with some regularity to being guest house/ private/ flats/ appartments etc so whilst 1939 it may have been doesn't mean it was in 1948 when my mother visited IF this was in fact the right street and household!!!
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Jom, Clifton Road is a street made up of large houses which years ago were either private houses or guest houses and even some of he private houses took in guests especially during the Summer months.
My relatives lived in a couple of the houses there and I had friends living there who also took in guests.
The conversion of some of the houses to flats and apartments mainly took place after the decline in the late 1960's of the holiday industry.
Before you go to the expense of getting any certificates etc let me have a look at some of the records in the Archives and see what I can find.
In you last posting you said "it was in 1948 when my mother visited IF this was in fact the right street and household!!!"
Is there a doubt now about the address because Cambrian has already established that there was a Robert E Williams at No 43 in 1939?
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Sorry if my original request wasn't clear.
I am trying to find out who in my tree is Sally with a daughter , name unkown and a son Eric bn abt 1928ish. She had a guest house in about 1946/1948 ish but we don't know the street. Having researched for many years, my best guess is that she was Sarah Ann Davies daughter of Emily Agnes and David Davies of Ormonde Terr from my tree
We don't know who Sarah's husband was. Too many options.
I have now found a family on the 1939 register who may fit ie Robert Edward snd Sarah Ann Williams who, with their son Robert Eric bn 1930 and a n other were living at 43 clifton rd. So I was wondering if 43 was a guest house. This may add to my suspicions that this family could be the one for whom I'm looking. I have actually sent for their marriage cert as I feel the chances of it being Sally and family are relatively good and worth the effort thanks to extra puzzle pieces supplied from Cambrian
In the meantime I have been researching further in my Owen tree and just discovered that my Sarah Ann had a cousin John K Owen (possibly John Kenneth) son of John ( known as Jack) and Bertha , nee Allen. I wonder if this is John K Owen who was at 43 clifton rd in the fifties thst Cambrian mentioned. Gosh things get complex don't they.
Anyway hope this clarifies my puzzle hence trying to find out if 43 specifically was a guest house and therefore increasing the chance that Sarah Ann Williams was in fact my mysterious Sally
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Thanks for clarifying that Jom, I'll have a look in the Archives when I next go there and see what records are available that I can look at and will post it on here.
By the way, Clifton Road is facing the Archive building so I'll have a look at No 43 when I'm there.
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I went to the Archives today and had a look at some records and this is what I found:-
The Street Indexes for 1914 and 1929 show No 43 as Apartments. In the 1939 street index it does not show any occupation so I assume that they were still apartments in the 1940's.
In the 1914 index the house was previously called Trevor House.
I took the two photos today of No 43, it's the one with the umbrella outside.
In the 1914 Street Index living at Ormonde Terrace on the Great Orme were two families called Davies
At No 2 was Ed Davies a plumber
At No 6 was David Davies a cab driver
I looked at the Burial Indexes for St Tudno's and St Hilary's in Llanrhos but the graves were not listed in it. The records are Church records but the family could still have been buried in the cemetery but in the Council owned part of it.
I looked at the Marriage Registers for St George's Church and Holy Trinity Church but could find no entry for the marriage in either one. I did not follow any more up as you said that you have applied for the Marriage Certificate so that should give the details on it.
I then had a look at the Baptism records from 1920 to 1940 and there were only two entries registered for the family. The first was for Awenna Williams daughter of Robert Edward and Sarah Ann Williams of Wayside Llwynon Road and his occupationwas a carter.
I couldn't read Awenna's name at first but checked it on the computer and she was born in June 1927.
Then there was Robert Eric's Baptism on 12th July 1931 and the family still lived at Llwynon Road. The father's occupation was Railway carter.
I had the records photocopied so that you could see all the details on the register.
I did not follow up on Robert Eric but hope that what I did find helps in some way
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Well what can I say ... Once again the forum has hit gold for me. Thank you ALL.
Firstly The DAVIES family ie David and Emily - parents to my Sarah Ann whom I believe may be my mysterious Sally were at 6 Ormonde Terr. My mother recalls visiting in 1948 and census returns confirm this address. David was often noted as a labourer (baptism records of their children) and on the 1911 Census was noted a a limestone quarryman.
2. David died before 1962 as Emily's probate noted her as a widow in 1962 when she died. They had been married in sep qtr 1895
3. Robert Edward and Sarah Ann were married Mar Qtr 1920 and will update the forum if any one is interested when I receive the certificate.
4. I had noted Awenna previously as a potential candidate for another family mystery but had vaguely dismissed her as I believed her needing to have a brother Glyn which wouldn't fit this Awenna ... However we (ie the family) may have assumed the enigmatic photo of "Awenna and Glyn" that we possess, was of a brother and sister. Who knows. So I may have just discovered the identity of the photo of "Awenna" too ...
5. I see from the BMD records that Awenna looks to have married a chap called Ewart F BALL in Sep Qtr 1950 in the Conway Valley District but can find no other trace of her. Further investigation may be required if the arrival of the marriage certificate puts another piece in to this puzzle.
Thank you SO much. You've all been great D)
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Jom, just a couple of add ons for your info. Firstly Llwynon Road is just below Ormonde Terrace so the family were very near to each other location wise.
Secondly the Baptism records in the Archives go back to about 1700 so there is a lot of info there if you ever need it and most people then had their children baptised
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If you receive the Marriage Certificate for Robert Edward and Sarah, I'd be interested to see the address on it for Robert as there were a number of Williams' on the Great Orme (that's where Ormonde Terrace and Llwynon Road are).
Awenna is not a common Welsh girl's name so it's possible that another Awenna may be related, as families often named their children after relatives, if you have any dates for her birth then it may be traceable either online or at the Archives
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Just a thought but could Awenna W Morris born in the Conway Registration District in the Q Sept - Dec 1926 be any relation?
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My curiosity made me look on the internet for an Awenna Ball and I found one mentioned in the Electoral registers for Chester.
I then had a look for the husband as his name is unusual to.
I found this :-
Their son, Ewart Jnr, married Awenna Jones from Llandudno and he worked at the Inland Revenue. They had three children, Janet, Sheila and Trevor. Sadly, Ewart died when he was in his early 40’s. Awenna is now 80 years old and lives an active life in Chester.
For more info click on this site :- scroll down to Harold for the above comment and continue scrolling down a bit to Ewart
http://www.kidsgrove.info/family/Ball.htm#ewartball (http://www.kidsgrove.info/family/Ball.htm#ewartball)
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That's very interesting and a really good find Rhuddlan and it helps a lot in research when the people you are looking for have unusual names like Awenna and Ewart.
Ewart F Ball was born in Chester in 1926 (Q July to Sept) so there must have been a strong connection to Chester or perhaps his work took him there.
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Sorry for the delay in replying to you both, Rhuddlan and Hugo and thank you for your further input.
It was very interesting Hugo to know that Llwynon Rd. is the next one on from Ormonde Terrace and certainly adds slight weight to it being a family of relatives. I have looked online at baptisms previously but had not found Awenna. The interesting extra info supporting the possibility of her being my mystery Awenna is that whilst my great Aunt's middle name was Awena (one "n"), the photo we possess of "Awenna and Glyn" distinctly uses double "n" as in Awenna WILLIAMS. Can't wait for the certificate and more than happy to share it Hugo.
As you may or may not recall, I am a direct descendant of a WILLIAMS family too. If you recall Hugo you very kindly found my great great grandparent's grave in St. Tudno's cemetery ie John and Martha (Elliott) WILLIAMS. John had been a one time gardener and later a publican at The Old Telegraph Inn on the Orme. I presume there is no known connection with yours.
Regarding the other Awenna, Rhuddlan, MORRIS is a name connected to my WILLIAMS line but don't believe Awenna MORRIS is part of it. Not to my knowledge anyway. My MORRIS link is that John and Martha (Elliott) WILLIAMS' (as above), daughter Martha married Thomas Bridge MORRIS. They took over the Old Telegraph for a spell following the death of John WILLIAMS. They had 2 sons
John Bridge who became a professional golfer and for a time was at Rhyl golf course (1939 Register). He married Mary WOOD and I have yet to establish any offspring
Richard who according to family was also a professional golfer but have only found him noted as a gardener (1939 Register). I do not know as yet if he married or had children
Thank you too for the added info on Ewart Fletcher BALL. I note from that link that their family tree states she was Awenna JONES but the GRO is quite clear she was WILLIAMS. I found them both in Harrogate (a place I've lived!) on the electoral register between 1952 - 1954. I note that Janet was born here from the GRO whereas Sheila and Trevor were born in Cheshire.
Thank you again. I'll update once I receive the certificate.
;D
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I did have a photo of Ormonde Terrace in my collection but can't find it at present but will take another just so you can see what the cottages are like.
In the early 19th century Llandudno as a town had not developed and most people lived on the Great Orme and worked in the Copper mines or in agriculture. The Williams family that I was helping on the forum lived in Cyll Terrace which is above Ormonde Terrace and although a John Williams lived there I could not establish a link with your John Williams who is buried close to the old St Tudno's Church.
I mentioned Awenna Morris only because of the location and that it was such an unusual name. In fact I had never heard of that name before I went to the Archives.
My walking friend Tellytubby was a member of Rhyl Golf Club until fairly recently and I wonder if he can shed any light on that part of the family.
I'm looking forward to seeing the details on the Certificate you ordered, perhaps it may open some more doors.
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Thanks for the offer Hugo re the photo of Ormonde Terrace but I took one from Google earth a few years ago. This is No 6 where the Davies family (Emily Agnes (Owen) and David DAVIES) lived. My mother vaguely recalls it.
Re Cyll Terr. Emily Agnes' Step mother, Laura (nee ROBERTS) half brother Edward, and half sister Ellinor OWEN (another forum member's grandmother!) lived at no 5 in 1901 after the death of husband and father John OWEN
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D) Well it has finally arrived ... the much awaited marriage certificate for one Robert Edward WILLIAMS and Sarah Ann DAVIES. The answer is ... She IS my relative and therefore the Sally Mum recalls from her one and only visit to Dad's family in Llandudno in 1948! I'm afraid I don't have my scanner available at the moment but the addresses are very clear for both bride and groom.
Details are as follows:
Married 10 Feb 1920 The Tabernacle Chapel, Llewelyn St., Llandudno, by certificate. Minister David DAVIES
Groom: Robert Edward WILLIAMS Age 33, bachelor, Railway carter, ex army, of Green Bauk, Augusta St. Father Robert a general labourer
Bride: Sarah Ann DAVIES Age 24, Spinster of 6, Ormonde Terr., Great Orme. Father David, a cab Driver (which he still is in the 1939 register)
This means that Awenna WILLIAMS is also my missing Awenna for whom I have a photo and then similarly Eric has been found ie Robert Eric WILLIAMS
It is this Eric whom Dad had a recollection of him having fallen from the Orme collecting gulls eggs and sustaining a head injury. Eric was quite a canny chap as he'd refuse to tell paying guests at their guest house where to buy cigarettes but would happily accept money and go and buy them for them. He also once took Dad out to sea in a rowing boat and tried to tip Dad out. However Dad could swim but Eric couldn't!
I have posted this photo before but thought it might be interesting now and is of Awenna with a chap called Glyn (now no longer thought to be Awenna's brother but may be a cousin). The older lady is my Great Grandmother Susannah Anne (Owen) WILLIAMS (different Williams family as far as I know). the second photo is of Awenna as a child with an unknown visitor it says on the back!
Once again the forum has helped no end ;D Thank you
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I'm pleased that you've got another link to your family Jom. The Tabernacle is a Welsh Baptist Church built in 1875 and is one of Llandudno's listed buildings.
I had a feeling that they got married in a Chapel because of the fact that I couldn't find the records at the Archives. They have many Church records but very little Chapel records for some reason.
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I've just been reading something on the internet and it said that in 1827 the Tabernacl chapel for Baptists was constructed in Llandudno, this was built on a site near where the present day Tabernacle Chapel was built in 1875.
The older Chapel was commonly called Capel Bach (Little Chapel)
The family may therefore have had a Baptist background going back well before 1875.
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Sorry for the delay in replying. Been having some major internet issues which are hopefully, now resolved.
Thank you Hugo for all your help.
Whilst in some ways I'm nort too surprised re the baptist link it had thrown my research in terms of access!! I do recall Dad once telling me that his family were quite religious but I believed them to be methodists, But that is my great grandparents rather than this specific line. It may, as you say explain the lack of records on line for John and Margaret (Jones) OWEN'S family as opposed to his family with second wife Laura. I know very little re their specific denomination. You may well be right
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Hi Folks
Long time no chat! Been researching many branches of my tree but have very recently come across some more information to possibly resolve my "Glyn" mystery
I have been researching Thomas DAVIES Bn 1898 probably at 9, Penyffridd, Llandudno to David, a cab driver and Emily Agnes (Nee OWEN) DAVIES. Emily was a sibling of my Great Grandmother. I have his baptism record giving this address, so assume he was born there
I know Thomas married Margaret E JONES in 1920 and in 1939 were living at The Cottage, Council Yard. Thomas being a refuse collector supervisor.
It seems they probably had a son John Glyn DAVIES Bn 1921 who may have emigrated to Australia in 1952. This John was a Joiner and carpenter whose residence on the passenger list was The cottage, Fire Station, Llandudno
1. Would this be the same place as The Cottage, Council Yard?
2. Does anyone know of this family
3. Could John Glyn actually be my Glyn in the bandsman's uniform. Certainly would be of about the right age. This would also make Awenna and "Glyn" cousins
John Glyn DAVIES looks to have married Helen (Nee CONWAY) in 1939 and had 2 sons. I can find as mentioned, the passenger list for John in 1952 but not for his wife or sons, whom through research I note to be Joseph and Alun. I assume they went over too at some point but it would seem not at the same time.
Are the names
Helen, Joseph and Alun DAVIES at all familiar. I may have to wait for the 1921 census!
Look forward to hearing any thoughts.
Do hope you all are well
Happy Guy Fawkes one and all
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Hi Jom
I can shed a bit of light on the Cottage at least. This was a nice, brick-built house in the corner of the Council Yard, immediately behind the old Fire Station which fronted Market Street. I believe it was originally occupied by the Water Inspector (who was also a Fire Brigade member) but in more recent times was occupied by the Foremen of various services. The last occupant was, I recall, "Johnny the Bear" who was in charge of either the Highways gang or Refuse collectors in UDC and early Aberconwy BC days.
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There is a Family Tree for this person on Ancestry. It is the Griffiths family tree.
John G Davies travelled to Sydney in June 1952 as you say. He went to stay at 27 Hodel Street, Townsville, Queensland, Australia. The information on the tree states that this was where Auntie Gwyladys Turner (nee Jones) lived along with some other relations. Gwyladys was from Conwy. I assume she was related via his mother Margaret Elizabeth Jones.
The tree shows he died possibly in Queensland in the year 2000.
It has two children of his marriage to Helen but the details are private.
The tree confirms he is the son of Thomas Davies and Margaret Elizabeth Jones. There are some photos on it.
There is nothing on it to indicate Helen went to Australia. There isn't much information on her.
Helig
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Hi Jom
I can shed a bit of light on the Cottage at least. This was a nice, brick-built house in the corner of the Council Yard, immediately behind the old Fire Station which fronted Market Street. I believe it was originally occupied by the Water Inspector (who was also a Fire Brigade member) but in more recent times was occupied by the Foremen of various services. The last occupant was, I recall, "Johnny the Bear" who was in charge of either the Highways gang or Refuse collectors in UDC and early Aberconwy BC days.
Thanks Cambrian
That is what I had guessed and assumed but good to know I'm on the right track.
I have been in touch with a relative now, of John Glyn and it may be, that he is not the chap in my photo. It looks as though they may be happy to swap photos so will wait and see what they say. Thanks for your clarification. Most helpful
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There is a Family Tree for this person on Ancestry. It is the Griffiths family tree.
John G Davies travelled to Sydney in June 1952 as you say. He went to stay at 27 Hodel Street, Townsville, Queensland, Australia. The information on the tree states that this was where Auntie Gwyladys Turner (nee Jones) lived along with some other relations. Gwyladys was from Conwy. I assume she was related via his mother Margaret Elizabeth Jones.
The tree shows he died possibly in Queensland in the year 2000.
It has two children of his marriage to Helen but the details are private.
The tree confirms he is the son of Thomas Davies and Margaret Elizabeth Jones. There are some photos on it.
There is nothing on it to indicate Helen went to Australia. There isn't much information on her.
Helig
Hi Helig
Many thanks for that input. I'll contact the tree owner and see where that gets me. I'm less certain that he is the chap in my photo though. I'll see what these other avenues produce
Many thanks
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Hi Jom, on a different matter I came across this on an ancestry site and wondered if it had any connection with your family in NZ?
Lynn Owens | Contact Lynn
60's New Zealand
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I have had another look at the Family Tree on Ancestry and it shows Gwladys Jones was a sister of Margaret Elizabeth Jones. She was born Conwy in 1910 and died there in 1973. Gwladys married Ivor Albert Turner in Conwy in 1933 and they were living in Townsville, Queensland in 1949. No date of departure from the UK shown but is seems to have been in the 1940s. She stayed in Australia until her husband died in 1967 and then returned to Conwy according to the information given. She was living at 25 Chapel St, Conwy at the time she died.
This tree has Thomas Davies 1898- having died in Australia but no date, or details, given for his death.
Margaret Elizabeth Davies, nee Jones, died in 1974 and her Probate shows her to be of 25 Chapel St, Conwy.
There are some wonderful photos on this tree.
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Hi Jom, on a different matter I came across this on an ancestry site and wondered if it had any connection with your family in NZ?
Lynn Owens | Contact Lynn
60's New Zealand
Thanks for that Hugo
Worth a punt!
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I have had another look at the Family Tree on Ancestry and it shows Gwladys Jones was a sister of Margaret Elizabeth Jones. She was born Conwy in 1910 and died there in 1973. Gwladys married Ivor Albert Turner in Conwy in 1933 and they were living in Townsville, Queensland in 1949. No date of departure from the UK shown but is seems to have been in the 1940s. She stayed in Australia until her husband died in 1967 and then returned to Conwy according to the information given. She was living at 25 Chapel St, Conwy at the time she died.
This tree has Thomas Davies 1898- having died in Australia but no date, or details, given for his death.
Margaret Elizabeth Davies, nee Jones, died in 1974 and her Probate shows her to be of 25 Chapel St, Conwy.
There are some wonderful photos on this tree.
Thanks Helig. I've had a look at that tree and it is the right crowd
I have also had a better look at the Aussie Electoral Registers and have discovered that John Glyn's wife albeit Helen, I now believe NOT to be Helen CONWAY with sons Joseph and Alun.
John Glyn is living with Orosso Donovon Helen DAVIES. I have also found details of a matching Armed forces marriage overseas in 1944 and again from the Electoral roll have figured the names of their sons.
More work to do re Thomas' (the fatherof John Glyn) death etc. I haven't found a passenger list for him as yet but will take that as my next line of research
Many thanks
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Hi Jom, on a different matter I came across this on an ancestry site and wondered if it had any connection with your family in NZ?
Lynn Owens | Contact Lynn
60's New Zealand
Thanks for that Hugo
Worth a punt!
Hi Jom, I only mentioned it because that name appeared in my family tree