Author Topic: The Great Orme  (Read 227177 times)

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Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #300 on: August 21, 2012, 08:02:52 am »
So why are the Police not enforcing the one way rule?
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Offline Yorkie

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #301 on: August 21, 2012, 08:15:21 am »
So why are the Police not enforcing the one way rule?

Because it is a private road except for the zig-zag part leading up to the church.    :)
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Offline Ian

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #302 on: August 21, 2012, 08:16:29 am »
The Drive isn't a public road, of course;  it's private, and owned by the council. I suspect (although I don't know for sure) that it enjoys the same legal status as a shop's car park;  it might well fall to the council to enforce the regs.

Edit: I see Y agrees :-))
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

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Offline Yorkie

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #303 on: August 21, 2012, 08:27:00 am »
The Drive isn't a public road, of course;  it's private, and owned by the council. I suspect (although I don't know for sure) that it enjoys the same legal status as a shop's car park;  it might well fall to the council to enforce the regs.

Edit: I see Y agrees :-))

Actually it is I believe, still owned by Mostyn Estates but administered (as is the whole of the Orme country park) by CCBC.     ;)

Just before I retired I had the responsibility of managing Marine Drive and the Tolls and there was no provision for enforcement of the one way system or speed limit.   Access has to be allowed from the West Shore Toll for residents of Llys Helig Drive and Marine Drive.   :-X
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Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #304 on: August 21, 2012, 09:01:26 am »
About one year ago I saw something similar and reported it to the Police via a message on here and I was told...

'Hi, yes it is still classed as a road and the road traffic act applies.that sounds very strange.i dont suppose you saw any of the reg numbers? i will check the cctv camera which covers by the grand hotel to see if they spotted a reg number.we do patrol marine drive but not as often as perhaps we should.one of the reasons is that we lose radio signal once we hit the cafe area'

Make what you will of that, I was under the impression that the road traffic act applies anywhere with public access, any legal experts know?
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Offline DaveR

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #305 on: August 21, 2012, 09:09:35 am »
The Road Traffic Act applies to any road that the public can travel along.

Offline Yorkie

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #306 on: August 21, 2012, 09:41:24 am »
The Road Traffic Act applies to any road that the public can travel along.

Except, of course, that the speed restriction signs do not conform to the regulations.

When I said "no provisions" I was referring to the fact that no one was employed, or instructed to prosecute or otherwise deal with offenders.  Especially difficult due to residents being permitted to drive the wrong way.

The Toll Road Act is an interesting read.    >>>
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Offline Ian

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #307 on: August 21, 2012, 10:26:47 am »
Quote
The Road Traffic Act applies to any road that the public can travel along.

As with most law, it's not quite that simple:

There are said to be about 40,000 private roads in England and Wales. Many are in the Home Counties Surrey seems to have the most, at more than 2,000.   Most date from the end of the nineteenth century or later, though some are older. In private roads, different areas of law meet highway law, property law, tort, administrative law and others.

Is it a highway?

Legally speaking, private roads can be arranged into three main categories. Some are highways, usually because they are through-roads and public use has led to the creation of a highway by dedication and acceptance.   The existence of a highway attracts section 130 of the Highways Act 1980, and the general duty placed on the highway authority to protect the rights of the public. The highway authority has an array of powers, though not the full range which applies to highways maintainable at the public expense (i.e. ordinary public roads). Road humps and other traffic calming devices, for example, can't be installed by the highway authority in private highways, under the powers in sections 90A - 90I of the Highways Act.

Does the public have access?

In some private roads, public use takes place and is tolerated, and the road will be caught by provisions such as the definition in section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988:   Road .... means any highway and any other road to which the public has access... . As a result, many motoring offences can be committed in such roads.   The highway authority s powers, however, will be much more limited, and section 130 of the Highways Act will not apply.   Such roads may be on the way to becoming highways. But until they do the 20-year period under section 31(1) of the Highways Act will usually be determinative for this purpose the status of the road is reversible, since the owner can stop tolerating public use. Once the road is a highway, however, statutory power must be invoked to remove the public right of way: see below.

Does other legislation apply?

Thirdly, some private roads are neither highways nor subject to public access. Highway author- ities again have only limited powers. In some respects such roads are no different from the gen- erality of privately-owned land. But some legislation applies broadly to streets , thereby
including all classes of private road, the main example being the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991and other Acts which import its definition of street , including those which confer powers on statutory undertakers to carry out street works.

In practice, the division into categories is less neat. A private road which is not a carriageway (hence not subject to a public right of way for vehicular traffic) may have a footpath or bridle- way running along or across it.   Or a private road may consist of a stretch which is a carriage- way and a stretch which is not. The question of whether a private road has become a highway through dedication and acceptance may be unclear and in dispute.

Ownership

The ownership of a private road is quite often unknown. This is usually because the developer who laid out the site, perhaps fifty or a hundred years ago, lost interest in the road itself once he had sold off the houses he had built; and his successors in title are either untraceable or unwill- ing to get involved. Claiming title by adverse possession is not easy: the Land Registry is re- luctant to register possessory title to a private road, and the recent case of Simpson v. Fergus (2000) 79 P&CR 398 shows that this approach is well-justified. Here the Court of Appeal stressed the difficulty of adversely possessing parts of a road, since they cannot be fenced off. But frontagers may collectively be able to register title to all or most of the road by relying on the presumption that each owns half the width of the road along his or her frontage.


From A. W. & C. Barsby Legal Research and Publishing
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Tosh

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #308 on: August 21, 2012, 11:33:50 am »
The rock climbers go up the Orme via the tram track and then cut across as if they are going to St Tudno's.
They drive down the zig zag to where the old toll booth used to be, they phone their mates who are climbing back down the one way system and they tell them if the road is clear to drive down.
All that to save the toll fee.

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #309 on: August 21, 2012, 11:57:04 am »
They can by an annual pass for only £15 which even includes parking at the summit!
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Offline Yorkie

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #310 on: August 21, 2012, 01:43:32 pm »
They can by an annual pass for only £15 which even includes parking at the summit!

Or if you have a relative buried on the Orme, or live on the upper parts you can get a free pass!  Details from Highways Department, Parking Sub-department.   ;)
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Offline Tosh

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #311 on: August 21, 2012, 03:43:40 pm »
I have had my pass for a few years nowat £15 per annum.
It is worth it because once you have been round 6 times you have had your money's worth.
I don't think it includes parking at the summit though, but if anyone can prove me wrong I will be more than happy.


Offline Nemesis

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #312 on: August 21, 2012, 03:57:31 pm »
Hope to heck it does !!! I often leave my car there to walk the dog and I haven't been 'done ' yet. I was always led to understand that the pass included parking. The blurb on CBC's website (Highways) doesn't actually say so it seems somewhat of a grey area. I will try to remember to ask one of the toll keepers when I go round.
Ours certainly is worth the money as we walk on the Orme nearly every day, from different areas where we leave the car.
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Offline DaveR

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #313 on: August 21, 2012, 06:55:06 pm »
Quote
The Road Traffic Act applies to any road that the public can travel along.

As with most law, it's not quite that simple:

the definition in section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988:   Road .... means any highway and any other road to which the public has access...
?{}?

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: The Great Orme
« Reply #314 on: August 21, 2012, 07:36:10 pm »
Apart from any legal technicalities, the question is why would any sane person wish to drive the wrong way around the Orme? This time of the evening when the sun is low drivers going the correct way struggle to see with the low sun and the last thing they need is a lunatic coming towards them going the wrong way. Perhaps it's a challenge amongst young drivers?
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