Author Topic: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues  (Read 28141 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Fester

  • Ad Free Member.
  • *
  • Posts: 6660
  • El Baldito
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2013, 08:51:19 pm »
An interesting article, if a little verbose.

Dave, given that you speak English with the precision and vocabulary of a BBC News reader, what would you like to see in addition to the Welsh Assembly's furtherance of Cymraeg in schools, hospitals, signage and most other walks of life?

Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline DaveR

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 13712
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2013, 09:08:10 pm »
I fall into this camp, sadly:

"And that includes the majority of Welsh people who were brought up speaking English; who have been taught at English language schools, watched English telly, listened to English music and read English books.

And I’m one of them. Language was a choice made for me by the school I went to. I was taught to read and write in English with Welsh only taught at secondary school. It was treated the same as any other foreign language – like French or German. It gave you tourist Welsh – enough to ask directions to the nearest zoo in Colwyn Bay – and not much else."


The problem with the Welsh was that they were always far too tolerant of their English neighbours. The Scots resisted English colonialism far more successfully and are, subsequently, far more developed as a potential independent nation. The Irish went to far more extreme measures to resist English rule and it certainly paid dividends for them too.


Offline Fester

  • Ad Free Member.
  • *
  • Posts: 6660
  • El Baldito
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2013, 09:47:13 pm »
An interesting perspective.

The Scots, despite more advanced plans for independence, still would be quite unlikely to speak in a language other than English.
The Irish, despite genuine independence in the Republic, do not adopt Erse or Gaelic as their primary language.

If Wales had gone down the Irish route, apart from the obvious religious divide, there would have been decades of strife and bloodshed leading to a North/South divide, probably for all eternity.
Hmmm, perhaps it has already happened!
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline DaveR

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 13712
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2013, 10:02:21 pm »
With reference to the other Celtic nations, I wasn't really referring to their language usage, but more their degree of resistance to English rule & culture.

Interestingly, at one time the Free Wales Army had links with the IRA. Things could easily have escalated here in the late 1960s.

Offline Fester

  • Ad Free Member.
  • *
  • Posts: 6660
  • El Baldito
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2013, 10:18:47 pm »
Maybe that is a lesson for us all, in terms of passive resistance and determination.

You see, with considerably less bloodshed, the Welsh language has taken its very prominent place in Wales.
Also, (I believe) that there is very little real enmity between the Welsh and the English.
Of course it exists, I'm not that naive... but compared to that between Scousers and Mancs, Arabs and Jews, Bosnians and Sebs etc... and the list is endless.

Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline Ian

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8954
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2013, 09:12:31 am »
Quote
The problem with the Welsh was that they were always far too tolerant of their English neighbours. The Scots resisted English colonialism far more successfully and are, subsequently, far more developed as a potential independent nation.

If you go back into the dim and distant past - by which I mean the last Ice age - the inhabitants of what is now modern Wales originated in Central and Southern Europe, and it was these hunter-gatherers who made their homes in Wales (and the rest of the UK).  At that time, however, the UK and Ireland  were a peninsula of Europe, and it wasn't until some five or sic thousand years later that the Irish sea and the English channel formed.

Moving forward a few thousand years and the Romans arrive on the scene, happily subjugating anyone and anything that stopped them building roads - such as the A5. Prior to their arrival, however, we know that what is now Wales was assimilating immigrants from all over Europe and  exchanging ideas  with Saxons and others to learn new skills in Bronze work, jewellery crafting and the technologies of the time. Five tribes evolved which divided Wales between them, and what's interesting to note is that the origins of these tribes are thought to have been Central Europe, and  - although there's significant scholarly  debate about this - it appears that the tribe holding Central and North Wales (the Ordovices) originated from Romania. So, Hugo, you probably have some long-lost ancestor living in Eastern Europe :-)

The Romans, not being the type to pat heads gently, beat the living daylights out of the tribes in the North - mainly because they saw the value in holding Holyhead - and built Llanrwst in passing, plus a nice stretch of sea-front track in Colwyn Bay. So, by 400AD, we can assume that most of who we call Welsh were a mixture of Romanian and Italian descent.

(It’s taking a while to make the point I’m trying to make, but bear with me).  The next significant phase came when the Plantagenets took the English Throne (through murdering the competition) and we all know that they were - essentially - French. It was they who built Conwy Castle and here we finally get to my first point: much as revisionists might like to suggest that the ex-Romanians and ex-Italians who comprised the Welsh at that time    were simply too tolerant and happy, it seems that it was the educated Welsh - the top tier, if you like - of the Welsh themselves who decided that they wanted in at the Royal court and started a pattern which - ironically - has persisted to this day. They left Wales and moved to the Home counties, and the Statute of Pleading in 1362 established English as the language of the Court, where the Welsh there fell over themselves in the rush to learn and use it.

Now to the second point: it’s not that the Scots have “resisted English colonialism far more successfully”; it’s simply that - historically - Scotland is a country which few have ever wanted. The Romans did eventually get to the North of Scotland but a combination  of Midges, weather, temperatures and extremely difficult terrain led them to concentrate efforts on the South of the country. During the Middle ages, the various tribes fought with each other endlessly, until eventually the Picts, from Ireland, became the ascendant tribe.

In the 12th Century, the Davidian revolution, combined with an influx of French and Germans (probably one of the few cultures acclimatised to the Scottish weather) combined with the Norse tribes that originally held the Orkneys  led to a pleasantly peaceful time for the Scots, until Alexander III popped his clogs, and Scotland’s ruling elite decided to make a treaty with France, to avoid having to fight them in Edward’s army.

That didn’t stop them all fighting among themselves, however, but Scotland was ready to reap the rewards of immigration and passed the Education act of 1486, which made Scotland the first country since Sparta in classical Greece to implement a system of general public education.  No wonder they produced the world’s best engineers, then. What cut short Scotland's proud independence, ironically, was the near bankrupting of the Scottish landowners when they became involved in a get-rich-quick scheme in Panama in 1698.  It was then easier and safer fro them to enter a union with England.

What all that goes to show is this dewey-eyed regard some have for what they consider ‘their country’ and ‘their language’ is actually more the result of a hotch-potch of immigration, cross marrying, endless fighting, murdering and torching and bad financial decisions. We are - all of us - from Central Europe; and, going back even further, probably from India (Pakistan). Where we;re born, and where we grow up is simply an accident of serendipity.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8954
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2013, 10:28:06 am »
One of the reasons English has attained its status as the international language is, I believe, actually because no one tries to 'keep it pure'. English has always welcomed innovation, from whatever sources, and - unlike the French  we don't seek to determine what 'proper' English (some do, I accept, but they're the ones who can't accept language is a living, dynamic entity).

If you look at English closely, you can see that it's based on German, as it originated from Schleswig-Holstein, but also contains a fair amount of Norse, French, Dutch, Latin, Greek and Indian and it's now acquiring words from Mandarin and Cantonese.  It's this adaptability and flexibility that makes English so valuable throughout the world. Historically, countries who have tried to preserve what they see as 'their own' languages have almost inevitably lost the battle. In England, the Great Vowel Shift that began in the south of England in the 15th century is the event which established what we now think of as English. But the English themselves (a mongrel breed if ever there was one) admittedly through conquest, Piratical endeavour and sheer greed not only spread English as a language, but also incorporated the best bits from all the conquered territories.

Language itself is valuable in determining history and culture, of course, and it's in the Latin and Greek roots that a lot can be learnt in that respect.  What makes me smile in regard to Law's emotively-laden but rather inaccurate article is when he suggests a scenario whereby German became the national language, revealing a rather deep gulf between his beliefs and understanding of language. To all intents and purposes, we speak a version of German, now (one reason why German is so incredibly easy for an English-speaker to learn) although our version has evolved to encompass words and structures from all over the world.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Michael

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1623
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2013, 07:59:57 pm »
  Some mega long posts here.

   I'll keep mine short, four words. Ian,  "incredible
 easy to learn German."

                   You'd have fooled me.         Mike

Offline Ian

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8954
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2013, 08:51:27 pm »
 :)
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline snowcap

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 822
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2013, 09:08:13 pm »
well Mike that explains why you keep nipping home to India. lol.

Offline Fester

  • Ad Free Member.
  • *
  • Posts: 6660
  • El Baldito
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2013, 12:15:54 am »
Ian's posts, in a more succinct (but by me less interesting) summary are telling us that in Britain, there really is no such thing as 'Nationalism'.
You see, there were humans in Britain, over 30,000 years ago and surely even further back.... but around 12,000 years ago the vast majority of what we know as Britain was encased in 40 metres (120ft) of solid ice.  Therefore all humans retreated back into the warmer climes of central Europe.  Britain was uninhabited.

As Ian says, Europeans were able to walk back into Britain, as we were linked by land to Europe at that time before sea levels rose.

Many different factions / races / creeds, came and went over the next 2,000 year or so... and due to several invasions or threats from the East, it was natural for indigenous Britons, (Brethoniau) to flee West, into what we now call Wales for relative safety.
One of the many connotations of the word 'Welsh' is 'those who ran away, or Welched'
In the Dark Ages..(500AD to 1000AD)... the word Welsh was generally accepted to mean 'Those who were brothers of mainly the Romans'   After a few years of giving the Romans a good hiding, the five tribes of Wales were given little option other than to toe the line.

History aside,  the Cymraeg language is a beautiful medium which has changed very little in 1500 years.
I wish I had the ability to learn it to a decent standard, but it is beyond me at my age.
In fact, Llandudno Library are running courses starting this week to learn Cymraeg.  It is only an imminent 2 week holiday that is preventing me signing up for that. $walesflag$


Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline DaveR

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 13712
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2015, 08:42:21 am »
The Headmaster of Ruthin School has written this interesting letter, regarding his thoughts on the impact of the Welsh language on education in Wales. He believes that by forcing children to learn Welsh, it is imposing an unnecessary burden upon them and hampering their future careers if they choose to live/work outside Wales?

It's certainly true that the education system in Wales is poor. Not only is Wales ranked the worst in the UK for the quality of education, but is very poorly ranked in the worldwide PISA rankings - for Maths, we are ranked 41st worldwide - a truly appalling statistic for a supposed first world country. I'm not sure myself what impact the Welsh language has on these statistics, but does the Headmaster have a point in saying that the focus on Welsh is turning out school leavers that cannot compete against their English/Scottish/Irish counterparts when it comes to University places and jobs outside of Wales?

Offline born2run

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1792
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2015, 09:07:55 am »
Easy. Substitute Welsh for French/German and make it the only language they learn.
There is never going to be a job in Wales where the user MUST speak French but there is many where they have to speak Welsh.
Therefore get rid of the less important one and no additional learning hours are lost.

Offline Fester

  • Ad Free Member.
  • *
  • Posts: 6660
  • El Baldito
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2015, 07:32:42 pm »
Mr Belfield has a point, and it took great courage for him to say it on the BBC News tonight.
I noticed that he struggled to find the correct, (politically correct?) word, to get his point across.

Cymraeg should be optional in my opinion, but I realise that feelings run for every high on this issue.
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline majormellons

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 123
Re: Cymraeg - Welsh language issues
« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2015, 01:30:16 am »
I thought I'd read that children who are multilingual, tend to be more intelligent.....or have I just made that up, who knows?.

I've put my daughter into a welsh first language school as I believe that it will give my daughter a far better chance of a decent job, once she finishes her education, should she want to find a job locally.....and that the Welsh language should be kept alive, of course!