Three Towns Forum
The Local => Local News & Discussion => Topic started by: Fester on June 20, 2011, 09:32:38 pm
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It seems that a serious issue, involving firearms, erupted when a New pub manager objected to locals ordering thier drinks in Welsh! $walesflag$
See here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-13829967 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-13829967)
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I thought the locals' response was a tad restrained, if anything. :twoface: :laugh:
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I was talking to a lady at the boot sale on Sunday and she was telling me all about it. She said the manager was a lad from Manchester he'd told the locals to speak in English while in his bar, of course the locals kicked off. He then went upstairs and returned to the bar with a shot gun and cartridges which he placed behind the bar and announced "he wasn't afraid of anyone" bloody idiot, I mean if your not scared you wouldn't pull a stunt like that would you. He has since had his licence revoked and been kicked out by the pub-co. The lady who was temporarily running the place while tenants were being sought has since returned. I was gob smacked when I was told, he will undoubtedly serve a sentence for that as according to her the gun was loaded. :o
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We used to live not far from there and I have to say the local Welsh people were always great with us, but to have someone move there and tell the locals not to speak their own language in their own area make my blood boil, it's idiots like that that stir up resentment big time! $angry$ (and I was born in England!) How was someone who is clearly nuts ever taken on in the first place?
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here's a blog post about the incident
http://jacothenorth.blogspot.com/2011/06/love-wales-hate-welsh.html (http://jacothenorth.blogspot.com/2011/06/love-wales-hate-welsh.html)
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Article in the Telegraph:
Fancy a cwrw down the tafarn? Then you will be glad that the Royal Oak in Penrhyndeudraeth is back under Welsh-language friendly management.
Ordering a beer down the pub in the native tongue used to be a straightforward exercise in this village on the edge of Snowdonia – after all, this is Welsh Wales, where 60 per cent of the population are native speakers.
That fact failed to impress the recently arrived (and now departed) manager of the pub, however. On Friday night, it has been reported, a row broke out at the bar when some customers insisted on ordering their drinks in Welsh. A weapon, thought to be an air rifle, was allegedly brandished and the manager, aged about 25, was arrested on suspicion of possessing a firearm with intent to cause fear of violence.
Such passionate fall-outs over language have been rare of late, even in Gwynedd, a redoubt of Welsh nationalism. People in Penrhyndeudraeth are mystified as to why the landlord and his partner, understood to be from Tyne and Wear, and employed under a temporary contract, should end up alienating the majority of their clientele.
“They tried to ban people from asking for their drinks in Welsh, not because they didn’t understand but more so because they seemed to want to rub people up the wrong way,” says Dewi Lewis, the village newsagent and a member of Gwynedd county council. “This is a Welsh-speaking community and people speak Welsh first, English second. People have always ordered their drinks in Welsh. No one has a problem speaking English if others don’t understand them but you can’t really come into a Welsh-speaking pub and demand that people speak English. It’s bound to antagonise.”
Penrhyndeudraeth may be forgiving of the linguistic limitations of the English but it is a haven to nationalist sentiment.There are an estimated 600,000 Welsh speakers in Wales, a fifth of the population, and Gwynedd is the principality’s linguistic heartland.
A place where a little diplomacy and cultural sensitivity might come in handy, then. Trouble is, it seems this was not the strong point of the managing couple. The two were employed to run the pub until the end of July by an agency operating for the brewery Marstons. Apparently, relations took only two days to break down irrevocably.
It was just after midnight on Friday when Anglo-Welsh hostilities commenced. Village rumour has it that a number of young men, who were incensed by the ban on Welsh, insisted on calling at the Royal Oak and ordering drinks in their own language. They were soon running from the pub, allegedly following threats from their host.
The Royal Oak (Derwen Frenhinol), which offers pool and darts (pwl and dartiau) and bar food (bwyd bar) is now under the management of Pauline Williams, who ran it before the arrival of the temporary pair. A Welsh couple will take up permanent residence at the pub next month.
A centre for walkers, drawn by the beauties of Snowdonia and the coast, Penrhyndeudraeth has its share of English residents. A Cheshire-born woman who has lived here for 22 years says she has never encountered discrimination: “If someone says something you don’t understand, and as long as you are polite and explain you’re English, no-one has a problem.”
Down at the Royal Oak tonight they will again be ordering their pints of cwrw, their English foe vanquished. Still, being generous in victory, they may just be persuaded to accept an order in Saesneg.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/wales/8587445/In-Wales-mind-your-language.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/wales/8587445/In-Wales-mind-your-language.html)
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I still wonder how such an idiot with such strange ideas was ever taken on to be a manager, I can't believe that his previous history was good? Also if he had such strange ideas why did he accept the post in Penrhyndeudraeth?
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He no doubt thought that what he perceived as the 'ignorant Welsh' would do as they were told by their English masters. :laugh:
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He no doubt thought that what he perceived as the 'ignorant Welsh' would do as they were told by their English masters. :laugh:
yes,he was wrong about that too! hopefully he will serve time and never return to Wales! $walesflag$
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It's just unbelievable, the ignorance and arrogance of some people never ceases to amaze me. $walesflag$
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Welsh motorists in parking ticket language protest - Telegraph http://tgr.ph/ywHVCL (http://tgr.ph/ywHVCL)
Read the comments at the bottom of the page, very borderline racist.
BBC iPlayer - The Radio Wales Phone-In: 20/01/2012 http://bbc.in/xgAQDn (http://bbc.in/xgAQDn)
The first hour is given over to discussing the issue
What's the forum's members views on this subject?
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The usual response from Little Englanders, the very same people that vote BNP and complain bitterly when someone speaks a language other than English.
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What a lovely insult to the English, Dave! Not my fault that my school did not teach me the language of an ajoining country - and I have never voted BNP in my life!
However, I may not speak Welsh apart from the few words I have learnt, but I do speak other European languages.
I don't know of any other Country that makes such a fuss about their language which is only spoken by the minority. >>>
I have nothing against Welsh, Gaelic, or Erse and am all in favour of preserving the old languages but slating those who do not speak it will do nothing to get those people on your side.
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I read the Dave's comments as applying to the comments left on the Telegraph article, quite rightly too! I'm sure you and I were not the targets :)
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Absolutely right, Merddin, I was specifically referring to the 'Little Englander' subset of the English. Most English people are perfectly pleasant.
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I read the Dave's comments as applying to the comments left on the Telegraph article, quite rightly too! I'm sure you and I were not the targets :)
Then it should have been made plain that it was with reference to the Telegraph (which I do not get) - maybe their comment needs a little editting! >>>
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It's quite plain, Yorkie. I clearly referred to 'Little Englanders', not 'the English'. Z**
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I cannot get away from it. I worked for years in Carlisle where many in the office were Scots, so it was a regular occurrence to have "that" battle which occurred hundreds of years ago in which the Scots had their bottoms busted, brought up. Now I am in Wales...................................................................HELP!
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The trouble is, for some reason everyone hates the English.
What no-one seems to realise is that the English hate the English for the most part too.
Scousers hate Mancs, Yorkshire folk hate Lancastrians, ... Midlanders hate the Black Country folk ... Geordies hate each other with a passion depending on which river they live near, (Tyne, Tees, Weir etc) ... and all English people hate the Cockneys. (that's really easy to do, to be fair).
I think the English 'muckied their ticket' during the 80's and 90's due to football hooliganism and disgraceful behaviour on Spanish holidays.
But what our foreign detractors fail to undertand is that a good percentage of those behaving that way these days are actually from Cardiff, Glasgow or Swansea.
But no one hates the British, just the English.
When I visit family in Yorkshire, I hate most of them too. Especially those with turbans and long black beards.
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It's quite plain, Yorkie. I clearly referred to 'Little Englanders', not 'the English'. Z**
Sorry but I am not aware what Little Englanders are! Small Englishmen perhaps?
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and all English people hate the Cockneys. (that's really easy to do, to be fair).
I love the Cockneys having been brought up amongst them, despite having Yorkshire roots, or further back, Cumbrian and Scots! But then I'm also half Dutch - generally, just a crazy mixed up homo sapien! L0L
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Fester, I never realised that your family in Yorkshire includ turban wearers and long black beards mike Only joking but that's what you just said
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It's quite plain, Yorkie. I clearly referred to 'Little Englanders', not 'the English'. Z**
Sorry but I am not aware what Little Englanders are! Small Englishmen perhaps?
"Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of English people who are regarded as "xenophobic" and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander)
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"Little Englander is an epithet applied in criticisms of English people who are regarded as "xenophobic" and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Englander)
Ah! Well now I know, that will rank as the daily advancement in my knowledge of the English language. From this can one assume that the same epithert can be attatched to every nationality?
$walesflag$
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It could be...but it's not... ;)
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I have been looking at many interesting points to come out of the 2011 census results.
Many were entirely predictable.
However, the reduction in the number of people speaking Welsh caught me by surprise.
The physical number and the percentage has fallen in the last decade. $walesflag$
I expected the oppose to be true.
Article here... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20677528 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20677528)
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Jac o' the North Blog post: Census 2011: Language
http://jacothenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/census-2011-language.html (http://jacothenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/census-2011-language.html)
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Jac o' the North Blog post: Census 2011: Language
http://jacothenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/census-2011-language.html (http://jacothenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/census-2011-language.html)
Usually, when people post just a link and no summary, I don't click on it.
In this case out of curiosity I did click, and now wish I hadn't.
That was as big a pile of self-indulgent rubbish as I have read in many a long year.
Replete with disjointed arguments and insults aimed at anyone who disagrees.
Thats the problem with blogs in general, they are often just one persons rantings with little in the way of sensible interaction.
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Why is it that when arguments are put forward in support of the Welsh language, whether in Blogs, Demonstrations, Publicity material or speeches they are generally made in English?
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If you make a statement or speech, you need it to have the maximum effect by being understood by the maximum number of people.
Only approximately 20% of the people in Wales speak Welsh so what is the point of it being only in Welsh.
If you make the point in English it could possibly reach almost all of the population and may have some effect regarding urging people to learn the language.
Or, make it bi-lingually, simple.
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Perhaps I should have referred to the activists rather than just anyone.
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Sorry Yorkie, didn't mean to sound snotty.
The Welsh school who were in the news last week for punishing pupils who spoke in English at school sent out the warning letters to parents in, wait for it, English.
Sorry again.
Tosh
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I would imagine, (although there are no specific census figures on this) ...that in England, the incidence of English being spoken as the 'first' language will have fallen by more than any 2% in the last decade.
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Sorry Yorkie, didn't mean to sound snotty.
The Welsh school who were in the news last week for punishing pupils who spoke in English at school sent out the warning letters to parents in, wait for it, English.
Sorry again.
Tosh
There's no truth in that story. It was started by an English parent who did not want changes to Cardigan school. They created a website which was seen by the Telegraph and Mail and the result was very anti-Welsh reports in the paper.
For some strange reason the allegations have now disappeared from the website.
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I would imagine, (although there are no specific census figures on this) ...that in England, the incidence of English being spoken as the 'first' language will have fallen by more than any 2% in the last decade.
The Census did show that in 4% of households no one speaks English as their main Language!
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I would imagine, (although there are no specific census figures on this) ...that in England, the incidence of English being spoken as the 'first' language will have fallen by more than any 2% in the last decade.
The Census did show that in 4% of households no one speaks English as their main Language!
.... and in certain parts of many ENGLISH cities, that will be nearer 40%
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you should speak the language you are taught when you are a school child and if you are lucky enough to be able to speak other language's then so be it . i wish i could speak fluant welsh being born and bred in wales but it wasn't to be, that's life you just have to grin and bear it, i moved to another country and was able to speak the language better than those who lived there, yes i moved to England. I Do, have a different accent than i used to have i am welsh to the core and proud of it, may be moving to another part of GREAT BRITAIN was a way of showing me that there is more to life than just complaining about how the other folk don't want to sound just like what i do or speak the language that they think i should speak. We all live on the same planet and breath the same air so learn to live with it, your only here for a short spell why make it harder than what it is. By the way if you see me in the local I'll have a Grouse and ice
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you should speak the language you are taught when you are a school child
What happens when parents speak one language and the schools teach in another? This isn't an issue unique to Wales, either; it exists in one form or another throughout the world. It is however, one of the most expensive issues in fiscal terms and the prime cause - along with religion - of torture, genocide, war, mass murder and child rape.
Language is a tool of thought. It's also the way in which humans communicate with each other and, given the capacity for misunderstanding which exists between them as it is, anything which might contribute to potential misunderstanding is obviously not desirable.
Colonisation of land by the major powers during the 15th - 19th centuries is largely responsible for the world's language distribution today. In the 1960s, prior to widespread television broadcasting, the international language was believed to be French, but this saw a gradual shift as trade between the previously xenophobic communist bloc countries and the West increased. Partly because the US has traditionally spearheaded both trade and colonisation through anti-communist adventuring, and partly because WWII was won by English-speaking countries (although Europeans might disagree), English supplanted French and is now acknowledged as the international language of Trade and diplomacy. The process was accelerated by the advent of satellite broadcasting. Astra footprints ensured that the Scandinavians could get Sky and - led by the linguists of Europe - the Dutch - the entire Northern Europe conglomerate became fluent in English. The ever-pragmatic Chinese, meanwhile, decided that their population, speaking 292 different languages between them, would be taught English as a common tongue, which left little choice for just about any other country other than to adopt English as their primary second language.
Today, mastery of English is essential for progression in any profession and the ubiquity of satellite broadcasting ensures that advertisers will not support minority languages. Even the great world languages such as Hindi are accepting this, and - particularly for Dalits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit), whose status often eliminates opportunities to learn English - protection has been seen as necessary so their chances to live and work successfully in India will not be damaged.
The case of India and Pakistan is also interesting, in that it clearly shows the lethality of bigotry and mindless nationalism in separating what had been one homogeneous society into two, nuclear powers based solely on language and religion and it seems clear that the world will one day end through a conflagration sparked by little more than unreasoning hatred and bigotry for the language and beliefs of others. It's a sobering through that were an advanced civilisation from the stars able to visit us, they would almost certainly view us as in need of serious education and possible fumigation.
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I would imagine, (although there are no specific census figures on this) ...that in England, the incidence of English being spoken as the 'first' language will have fallen by more than any 2% in the last decade.
The Census did show that in 4% of households no one speaks English as their main Language!
.... and in certain parts of many ENGLISH cities, that will be nearer 40%
?{}?
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Interesting blog post:
http://syniadau--buildinganindependentwales.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/refuting-idea-of-britain-as-nation.html (http://syniadau--buildinganindependentwales.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/refuting-idea-of-britain-as-nation.html)
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Fester i think you know we all love you,i think you will find its the english press ,politicians at westminster that are the problem,you will find that we all laught when England get beat at anything because we get it rammed down our throats,England,England,England,England,tv,press ,radio so i hope you understand its not the English we hate its the system which you cannot control.
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Are there no Welsh Politicians at Westminster, or any Welsh Press, or Welsh Television, or Welsh Commentators?
They can't be doing a very good job for you if that is what you feel! $walesflag$
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Well Yorkie,the BBC is supposed to be the british,not the english broadcasting company,the Sun,the Mirror,the Guardian,Daily Mail,Telagraph,are all British papers so i don;t see why i should have to be reduced to just the Daily Post or Western Mail to read about my country when all the nationals should be covering my country just as much as England,your problem Yorkie is your English,you moved to wales and nothing is different if i moved down south can i walk into the newsagents and buy my Daily Post ,no.
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Well Yorkie,the BBC is supposed to be the british,not the english broadcasting company,the Sun,the Mirror,the Guardian,Daily Mail,Telagraph,are all British papers so i don;t see why i should have to be reduced to just the Daily Post or Western Mail to read about my country when all the nationals should be covering my country just as much as England,your problem Yorkie is your English,you moved to wales and nothing is different if i moved down south can i walk into the newsagents and buy my Daily Post ,no.
Actually, Wrex, I am half Dutch and half Yorkshire. I don't see any literature from Government available in either Dutch or Yorkshire. However, I could get them in Urdu, Swahili, Polish, or any other of 54 languages if I asked. But I don't complain because I am not a Nationalist.
$walesflag$
It is up to the Welsh Press to decide where to market their products. Maybe they feel there is an insufficient market dahn Sahf! But when we lived in the Midlands we did get the Weekly News by subscription which is another option for any Newspaper or magazine. Nowadays with the Internet it hardly seems worth buying a newspaper or magazine.
$uk
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Stop sounding so hard done to.
You've got BBC1 Wales, BBC2 Wales, ITV Wales and also S4C which could disappear because hardly anybody watches it.
The English do not look down on you and they do not rejoice in your failings.
It is the Welsh who are always complaining about about the English not liking them and to be perfectly honest they don't actually care, it's all in your minds.
Get over yourselves and stop thinking that everybody is against you because they're not.
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CYMRAEG : OES DYFODOL?/ ANY FUTURE FOR WELSH?
http://www.mikejenkins.net/1/post/2012/12/cymraeg-oes-dyfodol-any-future-for-welsh.html (http://www.mikejenkins.net/1/post/2012/12/cymraeg-oes-dyfodol-any-future-for-welsh.html)
$walesflag$
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Actually, Wrex, I am half Dutch and half Yorkshire. I don't see any literature from Government available in either Dutch or Yorkshire.
I'd love to see the 'Yorkshire' literature from the government! Although I've seen double Dutch many times! :laugh:
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CYMRAEG : OES DYFODOL?/ ANY FUTURE FOR WELSH?
http://www.mikejenkins.net/1/post/2012/12/cymraeg-oes-dyfodol-any-future-for-welsh.html (http://www.mikejenkins.net/1/post/2012/12/cymraeg-oes-dyfodol-any-future-for-welsh.html)
$walesflag$
I see that this author advocates the wearing of a letter C to indicate ones affinity with the Welsh language.
I seem to remember a certain person named Hitler who wanted people to wear signs to indicate nationality or religion.
Barking up the wrong tree in my opinion. >>>
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Actually, Wrex, I am half Dutch and half Yorkshire. I don't see any literature from Government available in either Dutch or Yorkshire.
I'd love to see the 'Yorkshire' literature from the government! Although I've seen double Dutch many times! :laugh:
If you take a trip to Cwm Penmachno and the birthplace of William Morgan who translated the Bible into Welsh there is a collection of Bibles in a number of dialect languages including Scouse, Pidgin, Cockney and many others. There may even be a Yorkshire one!
:D
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I know I'm nit picking here but William Morgans birthplace is close to Penmachno. Cwm Penmachno is anything up to 5 miles from the house. Mike
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Sorry Yorkie i was talking about the British press,they don;t cover all of Britain fairly,if wales are playing football i don;t expect to see them on the back page but it would be nice to see more than one little column stuck three pages in when when all the other pages have been about England,but i dont expect you or Tosh to understand as it don;t effect you.
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Sorry Yorkie i was talking about the British press,they don;t cover all of Britain fairly,if wales are playing football i don;t expect to see them on the back page but it would be nice to see more than one little column stuck three pages in when when all the other pages have been about England,but i dont expect you or Tosh to understand as it don;t effect you.
I have just returned from a very pleasant few days in Edinburgh, (a fantastic city, Wrex you would have LOVED the Xmas markets, yes there were TWO of them!)
But I was in the company of many North Walian people, about a third of which had Cymraeg as their primary language.
We all got on really well, and we talked about the Welsh language issue at length.
Well, we had plenty of time to kill on a 9 hour coach trip!
The most incredibly interesting point was when they all confessed to a deep-seated dislike of people from South Wales as they could not understand a word they say, (when speaking Cymraeg)
It was pretty strong stuff I can tell you.
They also felt very embittered about the lack of public resources spent in the North compared to the South.
I wished them 'Nadolig Llwalen' as I got off the coach and they continued on their way to Llanberis, Caernarfon and Bethesda.
I wished them
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Sorry Yorkie i was talking about the British press,they don;t cover all of Britain fairly
True; but the press seem to think the civilised world ends slightly North of Barnet...
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Hate is the word here,its not hate its rivalry this is the real word,Llandudno hate Colwyn Bay,Bradford hate Leeds when really they don;t hate each other its just rivalry,we are all mixed,Scots marry English,Irish marry Welsh even Men marry Men so lets not say HATE lets just settle for we are rivals,we could;nt coup without visits to Chester,Liverpool or Manchester and the English couldnt coup without Snowdon and their daytrips to Llandudno,LOVE this is the new hate.
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Sorry Yorkie i was talking about the British press,they don;t cover all of Britain fairly
True; but the press seem to think the civilised world ends slightly North of Barnet...
And I always thought it was Watford Gap! ZXZ
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Hate is the word here,its not hate its rivalry this is the real word,Llandudno hate Colwyn Bay,Bradford hate Leeds when really they don;t hate each other its just rivalry,we are all mixed,Scots marry English,Irish marry Welsh even Men marry Men so lets not say HATE lets just settle for we are rivals,we could;nt coup without visits to Chester,Liverpool or Manchester and the English couldnt coup without Snowdon and their daytrips to Llandudno,LOVE this is the new hate.
I nominate WREX for the Nobel Peace Prize, and also to replace Kofi Annan as the next Sec.General of the United Nations.
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Fester i will settle for the three town council,we can change Llandudno for the better.
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Hate is the word here,its not hate its rivalry this is the real word,Llandudno hate Colwyn Bay,Bradford hate Leeds when really they don;t hate each other its just rivalry,we are all mixed,Scots marry English,Irish marry Welsh even Men marry Men so lets not say HATE lets just settle for we are rivals,we could;nt coup without visits to Chester,Liverpool or Manchester and the English couldnt coup without Snowdon and their daytrips to Llandudno,LOVE this is the new hate.
I nominate WREX for the Nobel Peace Prize, and also to replace Kofi Annan as the next Sec.General of the United Nations.
Fester i will settle for the three town council,we can change Llandudno for the better.
Wrex speaks a lot of sense and I'll second that. I'm sure that Wrex will light up the Three Town Council better than those Christmas lights will ever do! $good$
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There is a difference between being passionate about a subject, and taking it to ridiculous extremes.
See here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-20860465 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-20860465)
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There is a difference between being passionate about a subject, and taking it to ridiculous extremes.
See here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-20860465 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-20860465)
He's well known in the Welsh Language community as a bit of on an eccentric.
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Thanks for that Dwsi, I hope someone reassures that poor traumatised shop assistant.
If I behaved like that I would be arrested for a 'Public Order' offence.
Maybe thats what he was hoping for?
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Thanks for that Dwsi, I hope someone reassures that poor traumatised shop assistant.
If I behaved like that I would be arrested for a 'Public Order' offence.
Maybe thats what he was hoping for?
You say 'behaved like that' If I take that literal, that means that you would be demanding that a person working in an English shop asked you to pay your bill in the English language? Due you think it would be unfair for you to expect that?
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you would be demanding that a person working in an English shop asked you to pay your bill in the English language?
There may well be many shops in the UK manned by those from abroad where the knowledge of English is marginal at best. In the instance mentioned, however, the gentleman concerned clearly spoke the national language of the United Kingdom and was simply trying to make a point, without caring who was traumatised in the process.
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It's a storm in a teacup, certainly but I don't understand why, when the assistant was a fluent Welsh speaker, she wouldn't speak to him in Welsh though?
It's also pretty poor, in that part of the world, that the first Police officer who arrived could not speak Welsh. &shake&
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It's also pretty poor, in that part of the world, that the first Police officer who arrived could not speak Welsh.
I agree, although I'd believed a compulsory Welsh Language fluency requirement was part of the Police application process, and has been for some time.
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According to the newspaper I have seen, the issue was not that the assistant did not speak Welsh to him (it seems she did) but that she preferred to give the amount owed in English. In my experience a great many Welsh speakers tend to use English when referring to numbers.
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It's also pretty poor, in that part of the world, that the first Police officer who arrived could not speak Welsh.
I agree, although I'd believed a compulsory Welsh Language fluency requirement was part of the Police application process, and has been for some time.
And as the requirement of some fluency in Welsh spreads around the retail and service sectors, there will only be jobs for Welsh speakers. This has already been seen in Hospitals and in some shops (shall I mention Betwys y Coed?), and efforts have been made elsewhere. Let's remember that in this case the man did speak English and was just wanting to exercise his "rights" whatever they are.
Bloody good job that all the British and English owned businesses take on Welsh speakers!
This old chestnut about language needs burying and we should all get on with our normal lives.
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Surely, in the case of those jobs, learning Welsh is only another skill that needs to be learned?
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Surely, in the case of those jobs, learning Welsh is only another skill that needs to be learned?
Learning a language for an adult is not the easiest thing in the World. But it has been noticed that for most professional people such as Doctors, Lawyers, Surgeons, etc. etc. there does not seem to be any requirement to speak or even understand the Welsh language! Funny old world we live in.
Have a look at public service adverts and the phrase "the ability to communicate with the client in their preferred language" appears. But that only covers Welsh and English and therefore implies that applicants must be bi-lingual. There is no one available to speak to me in Dutch as far as I am aware.
$walesflag$
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It's also pretty poor, in that part of the world, that the first Police officer who arrived could not speak Welsh.
I agree, although I'd believed a compulsory Welsh Language fluency requirement was part of the Police application process, and has been for some time.
A 'basic' degree of Welsh is required when applying for the Police, and a CD is available for applicants to practise with.
However, if you want 'Fluent' speakers, then you would rule out over 80% of the population.
This would very seriously impair and restrict the quality of the police officers that are recruited.
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It's also pretty poor, in that part of the world, that the first Police officer who arrived could not speak Welsh.
I agree, although I'd believed a compulsory Welsh Language fluency requirement was part of the Police application process, and has been for some time.
A 'basic' degree of Welsh is required when applying for the Police, and a CD is available for applicants to practise with.
However, if you want 'Fluent' speakers, then you would rule out over 80% of the population.
This would very seriously impair and restrict the quality of the police officers that are recruited.
Similarly, how would an English only speaking Policeman be able to deal with a situation where everyone is speaking Welsh? People who don't think this is a problem have never spent any time in areas of North Wales where large numbers of the population express themselves best in their first language, Welsh.
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Similarly, how would an English only speaking Policeman be able to deal with a situation where everyone is speaking Welsh? People who don't think this is a problem have never spent any time in areas of North Wales where large numbers of the population express themselves best in their first language, Welsh.
Your final comment implies that such folk are also able to converse in another language, so why not use it when it is really required to do so?
The situation you mention would be handled effectively and efficiently as the English Police Officer does in parts of the major cities where such happenings occur regularly and neither of the antagonists speak English let alone the same language! I am sure that if it were required of a Welsh policeman to deal with me (should I chose not to speak English) he would find a translator quite easily as dealing with other languages is now a common occurrence. When I was in the Met we had a complete mix of nationalities and whilst language was a problem it was never insurmountable.
ZXZ
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Similarly, how would an English only speaking Policeman be able to deal with a situation where everyone is speaking Welsh? People who don't think this is a problem have never spent any time in areas of North Wales where large numbers of the population express themselves best in their first language, Welsh.
Your final comment implies that such folk are also able to converse in another language, so why not use it when it is really required to do so?
The situation you mention would be handled effectively and efficiently as the English Police Officer does in parts of the major cities where such happenings occur regularly and neither of the antagonists speak English let alone the same language! I am sure that if it were required of a Welsh policeman to deal with me (should I chose not to speak English) he would find a translator quite easily as dealing with other languages is now a common occurrence. When I was in the Met we had a complete mix of nationalities and whilst language was a problem it was never insurmountable.
ZXZ
Of course, the Welsh person can speak two languages, unlike the English only speaking Policeman. However, being as Welsh is their first language, the nuances and detail of what they are trying to say may be lost or distorted when it has be translated into English, particularly in a stressful situation. I'm sure you'd agree it would be very important to get accurate information in such cases.
Given the Met's history on race relations, i.e. being found to be 'institutionally racist', they may not be the best example to quote!
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Similarly, how would an English only speaking Policeman be able to deal with a situation where everyone is speaking Welsh? People who don't think this is a problem have never spent any time in areas of North Wales where large numbers of the population express themselves best in their first language, Welsh.
Your final comment implies that such folk are also able to converse in another language, so why not use it when it is really required to do so?
The situation you mention would be handled effectively and efficiently as the English Police Officer does in parts of the major cities where such happenings occur regularly and neither of the antagonists speak English let alone the same language! I am sure that if it were required of a Welsh policeman to deal with me (should I chose not to speak English) he would find a translator quite easily as dealing with other languages is now a common occurrence. When I was in the Met we had a complete mix of nationalities and whilst language was a problem it was never insurmountable.
ZXZ
Of course, the Welsh person can speak two languages, unlike the English only speaking Policeman. However, being as Welsh is their first language, the nuances and detail of what they are trying to say may be lost or distorted when it has be translated into English, particularly in a stressful situation. I'm sure you'd agree it would be very important to get accurate information in such cases.
Given the Met's history on race relations, i.e. being found to be 'institutionally racist', they may not be the best example to quote!
Suggest to withdraw the final comment unless you have proof certain. The Met have been accused of institutional racism but no court has yet supported the accusation as being general throughout the Force although some individual Officers have been brought to book.
I would also remind you that the predominant language in Wales is, in fact, English. Only a minority of the population speak Welsh and even then there is the great divide in the language twixt North and South.
I also note that your Forum operates in English and there is not one thread that uses only the Welsh language, so there is an idea for you. Or even make it all Welsh and see what happens.
;)
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I really think that there are some subjects that should be left,can you imagine us Welsh getting involved in the imigrants coming into England must speak English debate,the facts are that like myself most of us people along the coast have been either lazy or brain washed into not adopting our language,but the facts are we have our own language and we respect those who choose to use it.
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The Voice of Reason speaks again! $walesflag$
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The Voice of Reason speaks again! $walesflag$
Exactly!
$uk
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A news item today reporting on the Welsh Language demonstration in Carmarthen comments:
Cymdeithas yr Iaith says 500 people signed a pledge at Carmarthen County Hall, entitled 'I want to Live in Welsh' Credit: Cymdeithas yr Iaith
Forgive me for being thick but what do they mean by LIVE IN WELSH?
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>>> I would think they mean to use Welsh only Yorkie,the way the French ban any English being spoken or sung on their radio stations.Not really for me Yorkie but i respect their ways and wants,im quit happy in my Welsh ,English enviroment,but each to their own.
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That's what I thought they may meant. Somewhat of an impossibility with 99.99% of the Country able to speak English and only 20% or so able to speak Welsh. Unless, of course, they confine themselves to a single part of the Country.
Just wonder how they could survive without ever using another language, but I wish them luck.
$walesflag$
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The english goverment are not happy with immigrants who do not speak english so maybe the welsh goverment should make us all speak welsh
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I just find the whole thing unbelievable, what race of people would go to another country and then tell them what language they should be speaking in the others country. ???
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what race of people would go to another country and then tell them what language they should be speaking in the others country
Well, technically, all humans belong to the same race - Homo sapiens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human), although there are some minute genetic differences between groups. A race consists of distinct genetically divergent populations within the same species with relatively small morphological and genetic differences, so it's possible to classify Aborigines, for instance, as a race, but certainly not Caucasians.Variations in the human race are extremely small, probably because at some point in our ancestry the entire race was reduced to a small number of breeding pairs.
Also, when does one decide to whom a country 'belongs'? Does England 'belong' to the English? Who are the English? Language is a tool of thought, and it's also dynamic, so the more people who speak it and the greater the diversity of nationalities that use it the more the language evolves. And it's important that we get our facts right. When wrex says "the French ban any English being spoken or sung on their radio stations" they certainly played a lot of English songs the last time I was there. The Parisienne intelligentsia did act to try to outlaw the use of 'Americanisms' such as 'weekend' some years ago, but they're now part of the French language, along with Burger', in the same way as we use 'chauffeur' and 'savvy'.
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Is French speaking Swiss person any less Swiss than a German speaking one ?
What language should Australians and New Zealanders be speaking ?
Anyone else notice that the Delhi police use English on the side of the vehicles and the Magistrates' Court there still has that on its signage.
Intolerance is not right whether it comes from Welsh only speakers or English only speakers.
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I just find the whole thing unbelievable, what race of people would go to another country and then tell them what language they should be speaking in the others country. ???
Have I missed something?, who has done that Hugo? Genuine question as I've been away for a few days.
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I just find the whole thing unbelievable, what race of people would go to another country and then tell them what language they should be speaking in the others country. ???
Have I missed something?, who has done that Hugo? Genuine question as I've been away for a few days.
Yorkie for one, unless I'm missing the point. He's right in so much saying that the aims of Cymdeithas Yr Iaith's ambitions are unrealistic but the Welsh Language should have equal status with English here in Wales.
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Ah, Thanks Hugo, I agree.
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Thanks Fester, hope you had a nice time while you were away and that the bad weather didn't spoil it for you.
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Thanks Hugo, and yes we did.
In fact the swirling snow as we walked around from place to place added a certain romance! :-*
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Cachau Bant: Mind Your Language
by Tom Law 15 February 201313
Angry about the 150 year crushing of his native Welsh language, the writer asks 'How would you feel if you were made to speak German?'
It’s hard to give a toss about language when you’re an English speaker. Because losing your language is not something you’ll ever have to worry about; thanks to the glory days of the British Empire.
English is a dominant language – the third most common in the world. It’s a source of national pride – a gift to the planet. It helped to civilise the fuzzy wuzzies and spread culture and joy throughout distant lands.
So when you hear people bleat on about their language disappearing – it doesn’t really register. There are more important things to worry about in life than some bloke in Aberystwyth demanding a bi-lingual sign on his local fish and chip shop.
But what if things were different – if the cultural boot was on the other foot? If the English language found itself under attack. Let’s say those loony UKIP types were right – Brussels really did want to absorb Britain into some creepy all-powerful Euro state.
And that’s exactly what they did.
The Welsh language has declined so rapidly because the English placed a pillow over its face and smothered it.
Germany emerged as the dominant player and German became the common language. It started being used in the legal, government and business worlds, so more English began to learn German as a way to improve their job prospects.
German corporations controlled the media and began to bludgeon the public with anti-English messages. The English language was causing many of the country’s problems – it was dusty and outdated. It helped to explain why the English were such a backwards, thick and bigoted people. The language was holding the nation back – blocking its progress.
Middle-class parents wanted the best for their children, and that meant giving them the gift of German. The BBC began to broadcast more of its output in German. And society started to split and divide along language lines.
Your prospects in life became determined by the language you spoke. German became something for the educated and the powerful. English for the manual classes and the poor – for the people who clean your office toilets.
And within a couple of generations, it was all over for English. It’s now a cultural curiosity – spoken only by weirdos at clog dancing festivals in Northumberland.
As a German speaker you’re sick of hearing these people drone on about their language. You’re sick of them chuntering on about Dickens and Keats and Dad’s Army and The Beatles and all the rest of the cultural twaddle that you don’t understand. You don’t care about some bloke in Altrincham moaning about the German signs on his local fish and chip shop.
Now, this all sounds absolutely nuts; like the deranged ramblings of some purple nosed Daily Mail columnist. But this is what has happened to Wales and the Welsh language over the past 150 years. It was done by England and it continues to tear the country apart, affecting every aspect of Welsh life.
Because back in the 1840s, around 80 percent of people living in Wales were Welsh speakers, many of them spoke no English at all. Fast forward to the recent 2011 census and that number has dropped to below 20 percent.
But this hides the true scale of the decline. Welsh used to be the language of the everyday world, people would spend their entire lives never speaking English. Now, it’s rare to hear Welsh being spoken on the streets, apart from in a dwindling number of communities in north west Wales.
You probably don’t care much about this if you’re an English speaker – it doesn’t affect you. And that includes the majority of Welsh people who were brought up speaking English; who have been taught at English language schools, watched English telly, listened to English music and read English books.
And I’m one of them. Language was a choice made for me by the school I went to. I was taught to read and write in English with Welsh only taught at secondary school. It was treated the same as any other foreign language – like French or German. It gave you tourist Welsh – enough to ask directions to the nearest zoo in Colwyn Bay – and not much else.
So why did Welsh schools stop teaching children to speak the language?
The popular narrative is that it’s just a natural process – a stronger and healthier language replaces an older and weaker one. That the Welsh language is dying of natural causes – like an elderly relative withering away. It’s sad but inevitable. What can you do?
That’s the common explanation – but it’s bollocks.
The Welsh language has declined so rapidly because the English placed a pillow over its face and smothered it. It has taken around 150 years to complete, there have been occasional bouts of kicking and thrashing against, but it’s pretty much job done.
And it was only when the body was limp that England placed some chocolate biscuits on the bedside cabinet – bilingual road signs, a Welsh TV channel. And then started to berate the lifeless patient for its lack of appetite.
England’s policy towards Wales is not the only reason for the decline, but it’s the main one. It’s the consequence of the state treating the Welsh language as a sickness which needed to be cured.
It’s the way that the British Empire used language to control their various colonies during the C19th. It was a benign method of dominating occupied nations with minimal bloodshed or confrontation – a very English form of tyranny.
Whether it was Ireland, Singapore, Nigeria or North Borneo – the method was the same. English would become the official language used for government, commerce and law. Natives chosen for positions of power would be sent off to English public schools to learn the language and the ‘British’ way of life.
It would seep down through society, exploiting people’s natural desire to better themselves, to have the best opportunities in life. In doing so, it created a vicious form of divide and rule – collaborators versus separatists, English speakers versus native speakers. It was a seed which, once planted, took on a malevolent life of its own – spreading and mutating over generations.
This is exactly what happened in Wales. The country in the C19th was viewed by the English as being a dangerous and lawless land – Wild Wales. It was a fear fuelled by the growth of Welsh working class radicalism; the rise of the Chartist movement, outbreaks of rebellion such as the Merthyr Rising of 1831 and the Rebecca Riots of the 1840s.
These were Welsh people joining together to fight against corruption, inequality and injustice. But they were portrayed in the London media as being a kind of sub-human rabble; wild and barbaric people who babbled and plotted in their primitive language. It was a view endorsed by the Government; an 1847 report into the state of Welsh education and morality found the country’s population to be dirty, lazy, drunken and over-sexed.
The report concluded that the main problem with Wales was its language. And the cure was simple – the eradication of Welsh from the education system. It proposed that state funded English language schools should be set-up – and that’s what happened. It’s one of these schools where I, like most Welsh people, was taught.
So a deranged report by three English inspectors who couldn’t speak Welsh and who didn’t have any background in education became the blueprint for Welsh schooling; the reason that generations of Welsh people have been taught only English.
But the report’s other toxic legacy was to give many Welsh speakers a deep-rooted sense of inferiority and shame about their language. It was no longer something to be proud of, it was a problem that needed to be tackled. It was a sickness infecting the country, something the English had found the cure for.
The power of this feeling can be seen during the late C19th with the practice of ‘Welsh Not’. The ‘WN’ initials were carved onto a wooden plaque which school kids were made to wear around their neck if heard speaking Welsh in the classroom. The pupil wearing the plaque at the end of the day would be beaten. It was a practice endorsed by Welsh parents who wanted the best for their children.
This division of the population by language has been eating away at the country ever since. It has created two versions of Wales, two distinct cultures which view the other as a threat. What one side gains, the other side loses. What’s good for one, is bad for the other.
It has left non-Welsh speakers feeling like outsiders in their own country, forever left out in the cold and staring back in at a history and culture they can’t access; at jobs they’re not qualified to do. For Welsh speakers, they have been battered from all sides, endlessly under attack, having to justify the use of their own language – mostly to fellow Welsh people.
It’s a cultural civil war which has brought out the worst aspects of both sides. A nation which once fought for its rights, which fought against inequality and injustice has been effectively turned in on itself.
If the attack on the Welsh language was done to subdue and weaken the country, to create a servile and utterly compliant people who would accept their British medicine – then it can only be seen as a monumental success.
Wales has become a husk of a nation. The decline of the language, the stripping away of links to its history and culture, has induced a kind of dementia. It’s a country which no longer remembers who or what it is – so it simply exists. And accepts the guiding hand of its neighbour.
The removal of the Welsh personality has created a void which is being gleefully filled by the English media’s tub thumping brand of Britishness – the royal family, the Armed Forces, Team GB and all that. And there seems little hope of anything changing.
There’s no fight or energy left. No upsurge of anger. No dissent. No political will. No obvious solution. Just a blank stare, a rugby top and a grim Welsh cheeriness; a nihilistic acceptance of fate. While Scotland gains confidence and considers independence, Wales is left retreating into the arms of its abusive partner and going gently into that good night.
http://www.sabotagetimes.com/life/mind-your-language/ (http://www.sabotagetimes.com/life/mind-your-language/)
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An interesting article, if a little verbose.
Dave, given that you speak English with the precision and vocabulary of a BBC News reader, what would you like to see in addition to the Welsh Assembly's furtherance of Cymraeg in schools, hospitals, signage and most other walks of life?
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I fall into this camp, sadly:
"And that includes the majority of Welsh people who were brought up speaking English; who have been taught at English language schools, watched English telly, listened to English music and read English books.
And I’m one of them. Language was a choice made for me by the school I went to. I was taught to read and write in English with Welsh only taught at secondary school. It was treated the same as any other foreign language – like French or German. It gave you tourist Welsh – enough to ask directions to the nearest zoo in Colwyn Bay – and not much else."
The problem with the Welsh was that they were always far too tolerant of their English neighbours. The Scots resisted English colonialism far more successfully and are, subsequently, far more developed as a potential independent nation. The Irish went to far more extreme measures to resist English rule and it certainly paid dividends for them too.
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An interesting perspective.
The Scots, despite more advanced plans for independence, still would be quite unlikely to speak in a language other than English.
The Irish, despite genuine independence in the Republic, do not adopt Erse or Gaelic as their primary language.
If Wales had gone down the Irish route, apart from the obvious religious divide, there would have been decades of strife and bloodshed leading to a North/South divide, probably for all eternity.
Hmmm, perhaps it has already happened!
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With reference to the other Celtic nations, I wasn't really referring to their language usage, but more their degree of resistance to English rule & culture.
Interestingly, at one time the Free Wales Army had links with the IRA. Things could easily have escalated here in the late 1960s.
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Maybe that is a lesson for us all, in terms of passive resistance and determination.
You see, with considerably less bloodshed, the Welsh language has taken its very prominent place in Wales.
Also, (I believe) that there is very little real enmity between the Welsh and the English.
Of course it exists, I'm not that naive... but compared to that between Scousers and Mancs, Arabs and Jews, Bosnians and Sebs etc... and the list is endless.
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The problem with the Welsh was that they were always far too tolerant of their English neighbours. The Scots resisted English colonialism far more successfully and are, subsequently, far more developed as a potential independent nation.
If you go back into the dim and distant past - by which I mean the last Ice age - the inhabitants of what is now modern Wales originated in Central and Southern Europe, and it was these hunter-gatherers who made their homes in Wales (and the rest of the UK). At that time, however, the UK and Ireland were a peninsula of Europe, and it wasn't until some five or sic thousand years later that the Irish sea and the English channel formed.
Moving forward a few thousand years and the Romans arrive on the scene, happily subjugating anyone and anything that stopped them building roads - such as the A5. Prior to their arrival, however, we know that what is now Wales was assimilating immigrants from all over Europe and exchanging ideas with Saxons and others to learn new skills in Bronze work, jewellery crafting and the technologies of the time. Five tribes evolved which divided Wales between them, and what's interesting to note is that the origins of these tribes are thought to have been Central Europe, and - although there's significant scholarly debate about this - it appears that the tribe holding Central and North Wales (the Ordovices) originated from Romania. So, Hugo, you probably have some long-lost ancestor living in Eastern Europe :-)
The Romans, not being the type to pat heads gently, beat the living daylights out of the tribes in the North - mainly because they saw the value in holding Holyhead - and built Llanrwst in passing, plus a nice stretch of sea-front track in Colwyn Bay. So, by 400AD, we can assume that most of who we call Welsh were a mixture of Romanian and Italian descent.
(It’s taking a while to make the point I’m trying to make, but bear with me). The next significant phase came when the Plantagenets took the English Throne (through murdering the competition) and we all know that they were - essentially - French. It was they who built Conwy Castle and here we finally get to my first point: much as revisionists might like to suggest that the ex-Romanians and ex-Italians who comprised the Welsh at that time were simply too tolerant and happy, it seems that it was the educated Welsh - the top tier, if you like - of the Welsh themselves who decided that they wanted in at the Royal court and started a pattern which - ironically - has persisted to this day. They left Wales and moved to the Home counties, and the Statute of Pleading in 1362 established English as the language of the Court, where the Welsh there fell over themselves in the rush to learn and use it.
Now to the second point: it’s not that the Scots have “resisted English colonialism far more successfully”; it’s simply that - historically - Scotland is a country which few have ever wanted. The Romans did eventually get to the North of Scotland but a combination of Midges, weather, temperatures and extremely difficult terrain led them to concentrate efforts on the South of the country. During the Middle ages, the various tribes fought with each other endlessly, until eventually the Picts, from Ireland, became the ascendant tribe.
In the 12th Century, the Davidian revolution, combined with an influx of French and Germans (probably one of the few cultures acclimatised to the Scottish weather) combined with the Norse tribes that originally held the Orkneys led to a pleasantly peaceful time for the Scots, until Alexander III popped his clogs, and Scotland’s ruling elite decided to make a treaty with France, to avoid having to fight them in Edward’s army.
That didn’t stop them all fighting among themselves, however, but Scotland was ready to reap the rewards of immigration and passed the Education act of 1486, which made Scotland the first country since Sparta in classical Greece to implement a system of general public education. No wonder they produced the world’s best engineers, then. What cut short Scotland's proud independence, ironically, was the near bankrupting of the Scottish landowners when they became involved in a get-rich-quick scheme in Panama in 1698. It was then easier and safer fro them to enter a union with England.
What all that goes to show is this dewey-eyed regard some have for what they consider ‘their country’ and ‘their language’ is actually more the result of a hotch-potch of immigration, cross marrying, endless fighting, murdering and torching and bad financial decisions. We are - all of us - from Central Europe; and, going back even further, probably from India (Pakistan). Where we;re born, and where we grow up is simply an accident of serendipity.
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One of the reasons English has attained its status as the international language is, I believe, actually because no one tries to 'keep it pure'. English has always welcomed innovation, from whatever sources, and - unlike the French we don't seek to determine what 'proper' English (some do, I accept, but they're the ones who can't accept language is a living, dynamic entity).
If you look at English closely, you can see that it's based on German, as it originated from Schleswig-Holstein, but also contains a fair amount of Norse, French, Dutch, Latin, Greek and Indian and it's now acquiring words from Mandarin and Cantonese. It's this adaptability and flexibility that makes English so valuable throughout the world. Historically, countries who have tried to preserve what they see as 'their own' languages have almost inevitably lost the battle. In England, the Great Vowel Shift that began in the south of England in the 15th century is the event which established what we now think of as English. But the English themselves (a mongrel breed if ever there was one) admittedly through conquest, Piratical endeavour and sheer greed not only spread English as a language, but also incorporated the best bits from all the conquered territories.
Language itself is valuable in determining history and culture, of course, and it's in the Latin and Greek roots that a lot can be learnt in that respect. What makes me smile in regard to Law's emotively-laden but rather inaccurate article is when he suggests a scenario whereby German became the national language, revealing a rather deep gulf between his beliefs and understanding of language. To all intents and purposes, we speak a version of German, now (one reason why German is so incredibly easy for an English-speaker to learn) although our version has evolved to encompass words and structures from all over the world.
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Some mega long posts here.
I'll keep mine short, four words. Ian, "incredible
easy to learn German."
You'd have fooled me. Mike
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:)
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well Mike that explains why you keep nipping home to India. lol.
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Ian's posts, in a more succinct (but by me less interesting) summary are telling us that in Britain, there really is no such thing as 'Nationalism'.
You see, there were humans in Britain, over 30,000 years ago and surely even further back.... but around 12,000 years ago the vast majority of what we know as Britain was encased in 40 metres (120ft) of solid ice. Therefore all humans retreated back into the warmer climes of central Europe. Britain was uninhabited.
As Ian says, Europeans were able to walk back into Britain, as we were linked by land to Europe at that time before sea levels rose.
Many different factions / races / creeds, came and went over the next 2,000 year or so... and due to several invasions or threats from the East, it was natural for indigenous Britons, (Brethoniau) to flee West, into what we now call Wales for relative safety.
One of the many connotations of the word 'Welsh' is 'those who ran away, or Welched'
In the Dark Ages..(500AD to 1000AD)... the word Welsh was generally accepted to mean 'Those who were brothers of mainly the Romans' After a few years of giving the Romans a good hiding, the five tribes of Wales were given little option other than to toe the line.
History aside, the Cymraeg language is a beautiful medium which has changed very little in 1500 years.
I wish I had the ability to learn it to a decent standard, but it is beyond me at my age.
In fact, Llandudno Library are running courses starting this week to learn Cymraeg. It is only an imminent 2 week holiday that is preventing me signing up for that. $walesflag$
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The Headmaster of Ruthin School has written this interesting letter, regarding his thoughts on the impact of the Welsh language on education in Wales. He believes that by forcing children to learn Welsh, it is imposing an unnecessary burden upon them and hampering their future careers if they choose to live/work outside Wales?
It's certainly true that the education system in Wales is poor. Not only is Wales ranked the worst in the UK for the quality of education, but is very poorly ranked in the worldwide PISA rankings - for Maths, we are ranked 41st worldwide - a truly appalling statistic for a supposed first world country. I'm not sure myself what impact the Welsh language has on these statistics, but does the Headmaster have a point in saying that the focus on Welsh is turning out school leavers that cannot compete against their English/Scottish/Irish counterparts when it comes to University places and jobs outside of Wales?
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Easy. Substitute Welsh for French/German and make it the only language they learn.
There is never going to be a job in Wales where the user MUST speak French but there is many where they have to speak Welsh.
Therefore get rid of the less important one and no additional learning hours are lost.
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Mr Belfield has a point, and it took great courage for him to say it on the BBC News tonight.
I noticed that he struggled to find the correct, (politically correct?) word, to get his point across.
Cymraeg should be optional in my opinion, but I realise that feelings run for every high on this issue.
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I thought I'd read that children who are multilingual, tend to be more intelligent.....or have I just made that up, who knows?.
I've put my daughter into a welsh first language school as I believe that it will give my daughter a far better chance of a decent job, once she finishes her education, should she want to find a job locally.....and that the Welsh language should be kept alive, of course!
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I thought I'd read that children who are multilingual, tend to be more intelligent.....or have I just made that up, who knows?.
I've put my daughter into a welsh first language school as I believe that it will give my daughter a far better chance of a decent job, once she finishes her education, should she want to find a job locally.....and that the Welsh language should be kept alive, of course!
Well done Majormellons, I've read something similar too. When I worked in Bangor most of the people I worked with had Welsh as their first language but children can absorb knowledge like a sponge, especially when they are very young.
Some Chinese children there could speak Cantonese, English and Welsh fluently so the ability to be multilingual has to be an advantage, especially if you speak the language of the country that you are living in. So well done again $good$
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I thought I'd read that children who are multilingual, tend to be more intelligent.....or have I just made that up, who knows?.
I've put my daughter into a welsh first language school as I believe that it will give my daughter a far better chance of a decent job, once she finishes her education, should she want to find a job locally.....and that the Welsh language should be kept alive, of course!
The problem can be that a focus on Welsh can sometimes lead to the child having a substandard grasp of English (compared to those children who have English as their first language), which can lead to many difficulties later in life if the child wishes to go to study/work in England/Scotland/America/Australia etc etc. There just aren't many well paid jobs in Wales, sadly. Just being pragmatic when I say this.
I think the problem is with the education system in Wales, in that it's just not up to the job of providing a comprehensive education in both English and Welsh. &shake&
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I thought I'd read that children who are multilingual, tend to be more intelligent.....or have I just made that up, who knows?.
I've put my daughter into a welsh first language school as I believe that it will give my daughter a far better chance of a decent job, once she finishes her education, should she want to find a job locally.....and that the Welsh language should be kept alive, of course!
The problem can be that a focus on Welsh can sometimes lead to the child having a substandard grasp of English (compared to those children who have English as their first language), which can lead to many difficulties later in life if the child wishes to go to study/work in England/Scotland/America/Australia etc etc. There just aren't many well paid jobs in Wales, sadly. Just being pragmatic when I say this.
I think the problem is with the education system in Wales, in that it's just not up to the job of providing a comprehensive education in both English and Welsh. &shake&
If you are saying that education through the medium of English, with Welsh being taught as any other subject is wrong then I disagree with that completely.
My education was done in English but we had Welsh, albeit compulsory being taught in the same way as any other subjects.
It didn't stop me from obtaining an O level in English grammar but I'm still involved with the Welsh language whereas I've had no need since leaving school to use any Latin or French that I may have learnt there.