Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)

[Hugo]

When I've reread the posts above it has just clicked with me who Miriam is.     Miriam and Micox lived in the same street as me and I lived at the opposite end of the street.
My brother was working on St Petrocks some years ago and phone Miriam so she could see the cave for herself,  it's a small world

[Hugo]

Here are a couple of photos of St Petrock's on the Marine Drive Llandudno.   The strange shaped building on the shore side of the road is the Summer House belonging to St Petrock's
Sadly it has fallen into disrepair but I do remember many years ago when it was still in use and it's in a stunning location.   Some books on Miriam and Isaac say the cave is behind the garage door but I do know that there is a tunnel under the road linking the Summer House to St Petrock's.    I wish that I'd have been able to see the actual cave myself

[Helig]

Thank you for this information, AK. It has given me much more to work on. I shall get going and post my findings in due course. It may be later on next week before I can do this but I shall make a start with the research.

[AJ]

Diolch Hugo and Helig for all you support, it's really kind of you to give your time.I walk along Marine drive often and always hope that the owner of Petrock have the garage doors open.

[Hugo]

No such luck AJ,  the owners live nearby but not in St Petrock's,   I've even had a cheeky look through the letterbox in the garage but it's covered over on the inside so you can't see anything
iF you walk along the Marine Drive from the West Shore, look out for a road on the right called Pen Y Ffordd Goch because that's where the Gogarth Tea Rooms once was.   The steps where Miriam stood in the photo are still there and if you look at the cottage from Pen Y Ffordd Goch you will see the quarry tiles from her kitchen and they still look in good shape

[Helig]

I have been there as I remember the red tiles.

I have been looking at John Jones following the information posted by AJ. This will take a while to research due to having such a common name.

On the 1911 census he states that he has been married less than one year. His wife is Annie, age 24, born Trefriw. The only marriage I can find which looks likely is in the June quarter of 1910 registered in Conwy District. John Jones married Annie Ellen Williams. Reference is Vol 11b, page 745. It would be worthwhile getting their marriage certificate as that would show the name and occupation of his father.

I found a possible person for him in the 1901 census. He is a servant in the household of John Calvin Jones in Maenan. John Calvin Jones is a farmer living in Maesygroes. It shows John Jones, servant, age 20, Carter, born Roewen. It is Llanwrst district, schedule 8, piece 5242, folio 87, page 2.

There doesn't appear to be a John Jones born Rowen in the 1891 census. I have tried to find him in this as he should be with his parents but he has eluded me to date. There is a John Jones age 8 living with his parents in Maenan. This states he was born in Maenan.  His father is Robert Jones, age 31, farm labourer born Maenan.

One thing that intrigues me is that on the 1911 census Lydia Evans is shown as his sister, she is single. Why is her surname Evans? I have tried searching for her as her name is not so common but this has drawn a blank up to now. The only birth registration that comes up is for Lydia Evans born 1891 and registered in Wrexham RD.

I shall continue my search.

[AJ]

Hugo and Helig, thank you so much for everything you have shared, you have been amazing
My Great Nain was an Evans before they were married. they ran off to S, wales because the family was against the relationship, John worked down the pit for a few years before returning to trefriw so they may have married there.  Lydia was my Great Nains sister. I have managed to trace her side of the family but John is proving to be difficult. My mam thinks if they did get married, they married in Llanrwst before going to S. Wales

[Hugo]

AJ,  this is just an observation but I think that the address of John Evans showing Llanffyfni is misspelt.      It should be Llanllyfni near Nebo which is in Gwynedd  and is by Caernarfon

[Helig]

After I posted the previous message I thought that Lydia may be the sister of Annie, rather than John Jones. I have searched for a marriage between John Jones and Annie there is a possible entry for them in Llanwrst RD in the December quarter of 1910 in Llanwrst RD. John Jones married Ann Evans. Vol 11b page 591. That fits with the census entry which states they had been married for less than one year at the census date in 1911.

I have had another attempt to find John Jones in the 1891 census. This was unsuccessful again.

Do you know if John and Annie had any children?

[AJ]

That's wonderful thank you.  They had four girl, Margaret, Em (not sure of her full name, we just called her aunty Em)  Eleanor and Sian who was born after her father's death. 

[AJ]

I've ordered a copy of the marriage certificate as it looks promising, hopefully it will have John's parents' names so it will bring me a step closer to Miriam and Isaac

[Helig]

I hope the marriage in 1910 proves to be the right one for them.

It might be that his mother was Margaret as they tended to name children after their parents, girl after mother and boy after father.

The situation regarding the entry on the 1891 census has been food for thought. I wonder whether a place search for Rowen would help identify the family, or at least give a few possibles. I shall look into this and see how extensive it would be. I have looked for Jones in Rowen but nothing comes up. In the 1881 census (family might be in Rowen if he was born c1883) it is the same. There are very many Jones families in Maenan then. It is possible he was born somewhere else too the places they give for their birth are often inaccurate.

A place search for Trefriw might be worthwhile. I have had a quick look at the 1881 census for Trefriw and it has 26 pages. I will see what 1891 looks like.

[Hugo]

I was looking at the free bmd records on line and there is a possible marriage for Isaac and Miriam in 1839.     I don't subscribe to the site so I can't be absolutely certain but it looks a possibility.
The marriage was in 1839 at Llandrillo Yn Rhos  ( I'm assuming in those days that Llanelian Yn Rhos was in that parish )

Now according to a book I have just read Isaac and Miriam had 15 children but by 1877 only Rebecca aged 11 remained at home, the home then being the Gogarth Tea rooms.      I think that they  had about 3 sets of twins in their family

I don't know if the childrens' names are shown in a family tree but if not their names may appear in the Baptism records for the Parish of Llandudno.     If AJ finds the name of his relative's parents it could narrow the search a bit

[AJ]

Thanks Hugo and Helig.
Margaret was Annie's mother's name but it was such a common name it could also have been John's mother.
I'm on the familysearch web site but data is missing, I put in my Nain's birth dateto test it  and it didn't find her so I do not know how good it site is.
I didn't realsise that books had been published abour Isaac and Miriam, have you got the tiles please?

[Hugo]

AJ   The book I was reading was called "Llandudno Queen of the Welsh Resorts" and it's by a great author called Ivor Wynne Jones.   It's about the town of Llandudno and describes the streets by street with points of interest.
My copy is about 50 years old and well and truly read over the years.    I've attached the reference to Isaac and Miriam from the book for you to see
Just as an add on in case you are unaware of it, one of their descendants was a lovely guy called Ted "Yr Ogof "  Jones.   Ted was a local boatman and always had a smile and a chat whenever we walked past him.   Sadly Ted died on the promenade and a plaque in his memory was put near the spot where he died.    His son Ed Jones is a forum member