Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)

[Helig]

I am sure there was a query relating to a descendant of Isaac and Miriam Jones on the Genealogy board of the Forum some time ago. I seem to think I did some research on this family then.

Isaac Jones can be found on a variety of census returns and was born c1810 in Liverpool, or Amlwch, depending on which census is examined. In 1871, 1881, he is born Liverpool. The 1871 census shows them living in Gogarth Head Rogo. Issac is shown as age 62 and Miriam age 38. Issac is a Fishmonger. They have children as follows: Ellen age 11 (born Liverpool), Kauturah, age 9, John age 6, Isaac, age 5, Rhebecah age 1. The last 4 children were born Llandudno.

By 1881, still living at Gogarth, Isaac and Miriam have only Rebecca living with them. Isaac is age 71 and retired by the look of it.

In 1861 what appears to be Isaac Jones is living in a cave by Gogarth and there are no other members in the household. He is a Boatman and born Amlwch. There is an Isaac Jones living in Amlwch in the 1841 census. He is age 20 and a Labourer.

Isaac appears to have died in 1888 age 75. In the 1891 census Miriam is living at Gogarth age 66 and a widow. Miriam was born Llangelynin. She has children with her Ellen age 32, Keturah, age 29, Rebecca, age 24, Hugh Jones age 9, grandson, John Jones age 2 grandson and William Jones 1 month, grandson.

Miriam Jones is in the 1901 census in Llandudno, living at Gogarth shop. She is age 79 and her occupation Refreshment shop. She is living with a number of relations as: Jonathon Newly, son in law, age 42, Ellen Newley, daughter, age 41, Hughie Jones, grandson age 18, John Jones grandson age 12, Martha Jones, granddaughter age 8, Meriam Newley age 3, granddaughter, Jonathon Newley age 1 grandson, Isaac Newley age 3 months, grandson.

Miriam Jones appears to have died in 1910 as there is a death registered for her in the September quarter of 1910, Conwy RD. Her age is given as 77 but that is a bit suspect.

Ancestry has a marriage for what could be them in Llandudno 13/11/1861, Isaac Jones, full age, bachelor, Fisherman, residence Gogarth, father Hugh Jones, sawyer. Miriam Owens, full age, spinster, residence Wydfyd, father William Owens, blacksmith. This marriage was registered in Conwy RD in the December quarter of 1861. Vol 11b Page 963.

There is a possible baptism for Isaac Jones in the Calvinistic Methdodist Chapel in Beaumaris on 10 May 1813. He was born 29 March 1813 and the son of Hugh and Elizabeth Jones. Hugh being a Farmer.

It looks as though Isaac and Miriam were together before they married.

This is a distraction from the topic but interesting nevertheless.

[Hugo]

That's a  lot of good information you found there Helig, you've certainly been very busy.     I have also looked at marriage records for Isaac and Miriam between the years of 1839 and 1861.
There were only 3 marriages in that time that shared the names of Isaac and Miriam.   One in Nantglyn Denbigh in 1839 another in 1840 in Ruabon but the most likely one is the one you found in Llandudno in 1861

Now that raises more questions that answers because Miriam would have been about 39 then and presumable had most of her 15 children by then but it could explain why the 1861 Census only shows Isaac as living in the cave.   The marriage was about 7 months after the census date.
Now here's a bit of local knowledge that might fit into the details of the marriage that you have found, the Parish of Llandudno in those days was split in to three townships.    Gogarth on the western side of the Orme,  Cyngreawdr on the northern top of the Orme and Wyddfyd
Now if that info is correct then AJ  may have a connection to another forum member
Now this is no more than a guess but although Wyddfyd appears in the marriage records it may not apply to the Wyddfyd Farm.  It may well apply to another farm in the township of Wyddfyd, namely Pen Y Mynydd Isaf also known as Pink Farm
The reason I say this is because William Owens was the farmer there and could well have been a Blacksmith too.    The marriage records for Miriam show that her father was called William Owens from Wyddfyd.   That's too much of a coincidence

[Helig]

Thank you for that information Hugo. I looked at the 1851 census for William Owens and found him at Penymynydd as you suspected. He was shown as a Farmer and age 42. His wife is Elizabeth, age 41. They have 2 children then. This is shown after the entry for the Telegraph Signal Station. It is difficult to say for sure as Miriam's age seems to wander a bit. I will try to look at this again. I have been searching the census records for Rowen and Trefriw recently. Nothing of interest has come from this.

Looking at Rowen, it comes under the Caerhun district and the Genuki site shows that the only places for baptisms in Rowen were non conformist chapels.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Caerhun

It is probable that these records haven't survived.

[Cambrian]

Helig

Just a thought. At the time you are interested in, Rowen was in the Ecclesiastical Parish of Llangelynin, so any relevant info may be under that name rather than Caerhun.  Ancestry have the parish register online from 1782 to 1967.  The parish had two churches, the "old" one up the mountainside and also the 1840s one on the road from the Groes to Rowen - which I think is now a dwelling.

[AJ]

Thank you both for all the information again.  The information on the National census between 1841 and 1901 is incomplete and parts of the records are missing. As the data was collected by hand, a person may not have been included on the census if they were were not present such as staying with family at the time the data was collected. This was used by the suffragette movement in 1911 as an act of protest.
Do you if there is a full list of names for their childre?

[AJ]

Helig and Hugo
I went for a walk round Gogarth yesterday and when I passed the house were the cave was the family were sitting on the terrace.  Someone very kindly showed me inside the garage.  There is no evidence of the cave in the garage apart from a small cupboard in the rock. He explained that the cave did not carry on straight behind the garrage door but ran parallel to Marine Drive, so the garrage door is were the side was rather than the front.  The cave was completely demolished and stretched the length of the garrage and across the patio. He allowed me to take a photo but it just looks like a brick garrage.
Thank you Cambrian for your advice, I shall try that.

[Helig]

I have drawn a blank with a baptism John Jones in either Caerhun, or Llangelynin. He cannot be found in a census in these places as well.

Miriam Owens appears to be in Bodidda, Gyffin in the 1841 census. She is in the household of Elinor Hughes, age 50. There are other Owens children there as follows: Elinor Owens age 10, Miriam Owens age 10 and Elizabeth Owens age 7.

In the 1861 census she is in Groes Ffordd, Bodidda, Gyffin and the details are as follows: Evan Williams age 65, head, ag lab, born Conwy; Catherine Williams, wife, age 64, born Llangelynin; Miriam Owens, age 30, Boarder, Foul Dealer, unmarried born Llangelynin; Ellen Owens, daughter, age 11 months, born Liverpool. That fits in with the information held on her marriage to Isaac Jones in that they were a couple prior to marriage.

There are two births registered for an Ellen Owens in Liverpool RD in 1860. One in the March quarter and the other in the September quarter. I reckon she would be in the March quarter.

I cannot find information on the names of all their children however there is an old post on this family which might help:

http://www.threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4294.15

I knew I had researched Isaac and Miriam before.

You might find some information on this family in Conwy Archives.

[Hugo]

Helig,   the newspaper cuttings give John Jones' age as 36 and 37  so that would put his birth in 1879 or 1880

I've done a Baptism search on FREE REG  using those dates and the County of Caernarfonshire and only one entry came up for the Conwy Valley area and that was a Baptism on the 10th August 1879.
It was at St Mary's Church Trefriw and he was Baptised John Morris Jones and the parents were John and Margaret Jones  and they lived at Tyn Issa'r bont.       The father's occupation was a stone cutter.

I don't think that this is the person we are looking for because if John was born in Rowen then as Cambrian said the Parish would be Llangelynin or it could even be Gyffin
Perhaps if AJ gets the marriage certificate that will make the search that much easier

[Helig]

I was going on his age of 28 years shown in the 1911 census. This gives his year of birth as 1883. The 1901 census if I have the right person, shows him to be 20. That would put his year of birth as 1881. I wonder the source of the newspaper details.

I have searched FreeBMD for a birth registration but there are so many it is impossible to identify him.

I wonder whether a trip to the archives might help with this query. There is nothing like the prime records and this is preferable to online searches.   The archivists may be able to assist with other lines of enquiry.

[Helig]

Is it possible to former aluminium works in Dolgarrog would have kept records for their employees and donated them to the archives when this closed?

The only thing that worries me about the ancestors of John Jones is the children of Isaac and Miriam Jones were born a bit too late for the information available. John Jones bc 1883 and their first born, Ellen, born 1860. One of their children may have been his father but that does not match the details we have.

[Cambrian]

There's a great deal of material deposited by the ACL in Conwy Archives. 
Staff records are numerous but all under the reference CD12/1/6   This can be checked on their Online catalogue but a visit would be needed to check the actual records.

[Hugo]

I've just had a look at the online catalogue  but cannot see CD12/1/6,     Perhaps because of the personal nature of the papers they haven't listed them all?
If AJ receives a copy of the Marriage Certificate a visit to the Archives may not be required but if it is then that reference of CD12/1/6 will be very helpful   

[AJ]

I'm hoping the marriage certificates come up trumps because it will have John's father's name. 
I know the 1911 census is definatly him.
we have looked in the cemetery but I could not find a grave stone, I thought his parents may have been burried with him as my Great Nain was buried with her new husband.
Do you know if there were other families selling refreshments at the same time as Miriam?

[Hugo]

AJ  to the best of my knowledge there was no other families selling refreshments on the Marine Drive but I know that Penmydd Isaf (Pink Farm ) sold drinks and other things but the farm is on the Great Orme itself
At the Conwy Archives they have lists of the Church graves that have headstones and are easy to find as they are alphabetical and give the location of the graves
Do you know the Church where John Jones was buried?

[Helig]

One item the employee records would have is his date of birth. This would be invaluable in tracing him. The marriage certificate may give the information you need. I just hope it is the right one.

In a search of Ancestry there was just one family by the name of Jones that came up in Llanddoged. I am showing the Genuki site on this link:

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Llanddoget

I doubt the church records are available online.

The family is that of Edward Jones b1842 and Margaret his wife, born 1845. They had a daughter, Margaret Ellen Jones born Llanddoged in 1881. They are in the 1881 census living in Llanddoget and they have two children, Edward age 9 and David age 6, both born Llanddoget. They are living in The School Cottage there. 1871 census they are living in Llanddoget and have a son, John Jones age 2, born Llanwrst. In the house next door there is a family headed by John Jones age 66, wife Margaret, age 57 and a son, John Jones age 13 a Tailor born Llanddoget. In the 1891 census Edward, Margaret and their daughter are living in Llanwrst. I have shown these as being a possible connection to your family from there.

It may be worthwhile searching the parish records for Llanddoged but these are in Denbighshire so that would mean a trip to Ruthin.