Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)

[Hugo]

Thank you Hugo that's so kind of you,  i still wish you would let me pay for it because they aren't cheap. I have tried to PM you by clicking on your name but it says I don't have access.

You are very welcome AJ but your thanks are enough as I have enjoyed  helping out   If Ian the Admin can help with the message facility then I can send the certificate on to you but don't post any personal details on here
You mentioned going to look for the grave in Trefriw on a good day,  I know it won't be today as it's like a monsoon here at the moment.
I don't know if you are aware of the fact but the Conwy Archives has a list of Church graves that have headstones.   The person's names are listed alphabetically so they are easy to trace, also listed alphabetically are house names etc and they all give the plot number of the grave together with a plan  of where they are in the graveyard.   It's very helpful if you need it

Now the other point is that since 1837 all births in the UK have to be registered  so there will be a registration for Robert Jones.   The Church register may be in the Conwy Archives too so if it is then that entry may give you the final link from John Jones to Robert then to Isaac   I'll  try to search online over the weekend

[Helig]

I have had some more time to look at this and have the entry for John Jones in the 1891 census. It isn't the same person that I saw last time round. The entry is on the same page however. The household comprises:

Nant y Felin, Maenan.

Robert Jones - not at home.
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 38, born Denbighshire. Language spoken: Welsh. This applies to all of them.
John Jones, son, age 10, born Maenan.
Ellen Jones, daughter, age 7, born Maenan.
Anne Jones, daughter, age 5 (not very clear could be 6) born Maenan.

In the next household, also Nant y Felin, there is a Mary Jones, Head, age 69, widow, pauper, born Maenan. I just wonder if she is related to Robert Jones, could be his mother.

The household following this lived in Maenan Mill. This is just to give you an idea of the location.

This is definitely the right entry as it has them in Nant y Felin. The other John Jones is shown as John R Jones, age 8, with the household residing at Dolfadog/Dolfadeg. The head of that household is Robert Jones too.

It is a bit of a struggle to find the right people but I did get Robert and Elizabeth Jones in the 1911 census. They are still living in Nant y Felin, Maenan.

Robert Jones, Penteulu, 58, Priod, married 33 years, 7 children, six living, one died. Labrwr ar ffyrdd, born Roewen, Caerns
Elizabeth Jones, Gwraig, 57, Priod, born Llandudno, Caerns. Both speak Cymraeg.

I shall have another look for more information on them shortly.

[Helig]

I think this is the right people in the 1901 census. Some of the details differ from other ones but it looks a possible for them.

Maenan, Coedyffynnon.

Robert Jones Head, married, age 46, working on the roads, born Caerhun.
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 47, born Llandudno.
David Jones, son, age 9, born Maenan.
Thomas Owen Jones, son, age 7, born Maenan.

All Welsh speaking.

Details in the 1911 census are that they had been married for 33 years then. This would put their year of marriage as c1878. I wonder if they married in Llandudno as Elizabeth was born there.

[AJ]

Helig and Hugo, you're both amazing, thank you so much.   I do know that my great Taid had a brother called Thomas, because my Nain said her uncle Tommy fought in WWI and that Fits.  Robert's place of birth in Caerhun fits because in one census John's place of birth is recorded as Rowen.  Unless Miriam and Isaac lived in Caerhun, then  Robert Jones can not be related to Isaac. If my family is related to Miriam and Isaac, it has to be on Elizabeth's side. 

[AJ]

There are two possible Robert Jones born in Caerhun 1854 in the 1861 census, both have parents called John and Ann but different ages and one in Caerhun and the other in Llangelynin at time of census.  Definitely not connected to Isaac
 Interestingly in the 1901 census, there is a John Jones working as a farm servant on a farm in Llangelynin near Caerhun with estimated dob 1881 which fit his age from the 1891 census and age on his wedding certificate with  his occupation is farm labourer.  Unlike the 1891 census, his birth place Caerhun but in the 1911 census, his place of birth in Rowen.

[Helig]

I agree that any connection with Isaac and Miriam Jones must be on Elizabeth's side. I thought that when I saw she was born in Llandudno. There are a couple of marriages for Robert Jones and Elizabeth registered in Conwy in 1877. In the Sept quarter 1877 Robert Jones married either Elizabeth Williams, or Elizabeth Anne Williams. Reference vol 11b Page 716. Also in the Sept quarter 1877, Robert Jones married Elizabeth Fletcher. Vol 11b page 708. There is a marriage registered in Llanwrst district in the March quarter of 1878. Robert Jones married Elizabeth Lloyd. Vol 11b page 447. There is nothing else on FreeBMD that looks likely for them.

It would be interesting to see how the witnesses to the marriage of John Jones and Annie fit in with his family.

[Hugo]

AJ      I don't know why the place of birth should differ in the Census records for John Jones, it could be that the Parish name was put in the  1891 Census but he  put the actual location of Rowen in the 1911 Census
It's interesting but also very frustrating with so many John Jones' and Robert Jones' in the local area but I'm sure that something will turn up

Helig, Robert's age and therefore date of birth differ in the Censuses for 1901 and 1911  and it would make Robert's date of birth as either C1853 or C1855  but there may well be a reason for it.       The fact that the 1911 Census shows that they have been married for 33 years is another clue and puts the date of marriage at C1878, a few years before John was born.   
As Elizabeth was born in Llandudno the marriage may have taken place there and if so there is a possibility of Church records being available at the Conwy Archives
As you have suggested Isaac may have been married before but he could have been married before the 1837 date when everything had to be registered so I hope that we can find out the names of Robert's parents.

[Helig]

The only way I know to establish John Jones' date of birth would be to search the records for the employers he had in Dolgarrog. I am sure their records would have details of his date of birth. They are available in the archives in Conwy per previous posts.

I am still trying to find Robert Jones in earlier census returns but am ties up with medical appointments at the moment. I spent all day yesterday going to see the consultant who is some distance away. Today I am limited due to extreme tiredness. I hope I can get down to it later this week.

I am sure we have Robert Jones' family in the 1891 census and the 1911 census. Not so sure about the 1901 census as they are living in another address. Since they were in Nant y Felin the 1891 and 1911, I should have thought they would be there is 1901 as well. There is a question as to where was Robert Jones in 1891? I aim to look for him in 1861, 1871 and 1881. Also, the 1911 states they had 7 children of whom 1 died. Given they married in c1878, I should have expected to see more children at home with them in 1901. I am unhappy about the changes in birthplace for both Robert Jones and John Jones. There may be an explanation but in my experience it is common for these to differ and I wonder how well the enumerator took these down at times. Could be the enumerator was English and had trouble translating details of people who were Welsh speaking.

[AJ]

Thank you both, when I have some time I will go to Conwy archives.  If Elizabeth was related to Isaac and Miriam, then she would have to be a Jones.  From what I remember from my Nain,  I do know that Elizabeth's main language was Welsh and I don't think she could speak much English.

I hope you start to feel better soon Helig

[Helig]

I have been trying to establish the situation with regard to Robert Jones, father of John Jones. It isn't easy to put it mildly. As AJ has discovered there are two families with the names of John and Ann Jones who are the potential parents of Robert Jones. It is extremely difficult to determine which ones are the family of Robert Jones, father of John Jones, who we are interested in. I would be interested to know if AJ had any views on this.

There is a WW1 service record for Thomas Owen Jones showing his father to be Robert Jones of Pen y Groes Ffordd, Maenan. The document is dated 1916.

There is an entry in the 1881 census which looks interesting to me:

Caerhun, Plas Ofer.

Robert Jones Head, married age 25, Farm labourer born Caerhun.
Elizabeth Jones, wife age 27, born Llanrhos.
Robert Jones, son, born Caerhun.

The ages of Robert and Elizabeth are similar to those in other years. Elizabeth is shown born Llanrhos which is near to Llandudno. It would also fit with a marriage c1878.

In the 1861 I tend to favour the family of John and Anne Jones as follows:

Caernalach, Caerhun.

John Jones Head, married, age 61, Farmer, born Caerhun.
Anne Jones wife, age 45, born Trefriw.
John Jones son, age 9, born Caerhun.
Robert Jones, son, age 7, born Caerhun.
Elizabeth Jones, daughter, age 5, born Caerhun
Robert Owen, visitor, age 15, born Caerhun.

This brings in the Owen name which appears elsewhere. There is also a link to Trefriw.

There is a large difference in age between John and Anne Jones which suggests to me that John Jones may have been married before.

There is an entry for them in the 1871 census which has Robert Jones age 16. They are living in the same place as the 1861.

It is of interest that in the entry for the 1891 census, Robert Jones was missing from home. There is an entry for Robert Jones age 36 in Caerhun in the same place as his family were previously. This is as follows:

Caernalach (Caemalach?) Caerhun, Robert Jones Head, widr, age 36, Farmer, born Caerhun. The only other people in the household are two servants.

The difficulty with it is he is shown as a widower.

I would appreciate your thoughts before I do any more on this.

I have seen a tree on Ancestry which shows Robert R Jones bc 1854 Caerhun, d 29/07/1916, Pen y Groes, Ffordd Maenan, Llanwrst, to be the son of John and Ann Jones. John 1826-1905, Ann Thomas 1827-1913. Robert's wife is Elizabeth Ann Williams, 1854-1920. Elizabeth is shown as born Llandudno and died Maenan (with a query). Their children include John Jones 1881-1916 and Thomas Owen Jones 1894-1944. The tree owner is Emlyn. The trouble is you cannot rely on these being accurate.

[Hugo]

Hi Helig, you've certainly been very busy with all that info.    I haven't had time to digest it all but thought that I'd mention this as you have come across two places of birth for Elizabeth ie Llandudno and Llanrhos.
Strangely both could be correct because the town of Llandudno was built over two Parishes.   That's Llandudno and Eglwys Rhos (  Llan Rhos )
Just in case you didn't know it the boundary was roughly down Trinity Square and just north of Trinity Avenue.  Llandudno was to the north and Eglwys Rhos to the south.
In 1905 the two Parishes were amalgamated to form Llandudno cum Eglwys Rhos
I was born in Llanduno but where I was born was originally in the Parish of Eglwys Rhos ( Llan Rhos )  hope that that makes some sense

https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Place:Llandudno_cum_Eglwys_Rhos%2C_Caernarvonshire%2C_Wales

[Helig]

Thank you for that information, Hugo.

There is another contender for Robert Jones in the 1861 census. They are living in Caerhun and details are as follows:

Garning (??)

Robert Jones Head, married, age 37, ag lab born Llangelynin.
Ann Jones wife, age 36, born Llanfair
Ann Jones, daughter, age 15, born Gyffin
Robert Jones, son, age 8. born Llangelynin
Richard Jones, son, age 5, born Caerhun
John Jones, son, age 2, born Caerhun
William Jones, son, age 4 months, born Caerhun.

There is a grave shown for Robert Jones buried in Llanddoged cemetery. This shows he was born in 1833 and died 27/07/1916. His wife is shown as Elizabeth and he has a daughter by the name of Elizabeth. This looks to be the same Robert Jones which was in the tree on Ancestry. There is a query about it if his birth was in 1833 and not 1854 as it has given. The details are that he was aged 82/3. To add to the confusion, there is a death registered for Robert Jones in July 1916 in Llanwrst RD which shows his age as 63.

My view is that it is the family living of John Jones in Caernalach/Caemalach in Caerhun and later Robert Jones' family living in Nant y Felin, Maenan.

The tree on Ancestry shows David Jones born in Nant y Felin on 03/10/1891. He was a servant in Llangelynin in 1911.

There are some photos of this family on Ancestry which may be of interest.

The only way to establish the facts is to obtain the birth certificate for John Jones which should be possible if his date of birth can be found in the employee records of the works in Dolgarrog. That would give his place of birth and mother's maiden name.

[AJ]

Thank you both, it's certainly confusing.
I do know that my great grandfather had a brother called Tommy who fought in WWI
If you look at the wedding certificate, I am sure that John Jones' address is Nant y Felin - it's defiantly   something y and it looks like felin after.
That would tie in with Robert and Elizabeth Jones in Maenen Nant Y Felin.  By the 1901 census, John would be over 14 and probably working on a farm somewhere.
I have contacted Llandudno registry office and they are looking for his death certificate but they are short staffed at the moment and may take a while.
Hopefully going to make it to Conwy this week, I rang archives and they have some Dolgarrog work's there.

[AJ]

I have seen a tree on Ancestry which shows Robert R Jones bc 1854 Caerhun, d 29/07/1916, Pen y Groes, Ffordd Maenan, Llanwrst, to be the son of John and Ann Jones. John 1826-1905, Ann Thomas 1827-1913. Robert's wife is Elizabeth Ann Williams, 1854-1920. Elizabeth is shown as born Llandudno and died Maenan (with a query). Their children include John Jones 1881-1916 and Thomas Owen Jones 1894-1944. The tree owner is Emlyn. The trouble is you cannot rely on these being accurate.

This defiantly fits in with my Great Grandfather John's date of birth and death.
In the newspaper reports, it says that Robert Jones attended his son's funeral which was June 1916 so he may have died not long after his son.
I don't know when Elizabeth died, but my Nain who was born 1914 stayed with her when she was a little girl as Anne had to work and she did say  she remembered walking up the hill in Trefriw to the cemetery when she died.
   

[Cambrian]

Just a quick note re Llandudno cum Eglwysrhos.  This was a civil parish which, ordinarily, post-1894 would have been administered by a Parish Council.  As the civil parish was co-terminus with the Urban District boundary the UDC was given the powers of a Parish Council to undertake certain parochial matters  eg appointment of Trustees. The pre-existing Ecclesiastical Parishes of Llanrhos and Llandudno still exist, although Llanrhos has been subsumed into one of the latest Church in Wales ideas and now forms part of the Mission Area of Aberconwy.

The boundary between Llanrhos and Llandudno - which also forms the Diocesan boundary between St Asaph and Bangor - was adjusted in the 1930s to more or less follow the railway line.

The former St Andrew's Mission Church off Trinity Avenue was an outpost of Llanrhos but once Llandudno had built Church of Our Saviour, it was effectively redundant.