Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)

[Hugo]

Just an add on about the Parish boundary in Llandudno.    There are still a few boundary stones left in Llandudno.  One is in Bodafon Street, another in Trinity Church grounds and some more in the back streets at the side of the Albert Pub
They are simply marked LL  P on one side and ER  P on the other



https://www.deganwyhistory.co.uk/en/research_articles/parish-boundary-stones/

[Helig]

In view of the tragic accident of John Jones there should be some papers on this in his employer's records. These may give more information on him and his family. Also, there would have been an inquest and it is possible to obtain the records of this. I am not sure of the procedure but think records for inquests are closed for 75 years. It is now long after this so you should be able to see them.

[AJ]

Thank you all for your input.
I have the news paper article for the inquest, I have tried to upload on here but it won't let me.
I just think it's so interesting that Elizabeth was from LLandudno as all my Mam's family are Conwy Valley and Elizabeth is the first relation I've found who was from Llandudno.
I'm hoping John's death certificate with give an accurate date of birth, and if it does I may  be able to find his birth certificate. As soon as i know more I'll post the information.

[Cambrian]

AJ, from memory the entries of death following an inquest are by direction of the Coroner and are noted to that effect.  It may help with the Register Office if you mention that the entry followed an inquest. That would enable swift identification of the correct John.

[Helig]

I don't think they included the date of birth on death certificates for people who died back in 1916. That has only been shown in more recent years. According to Google, it was shown from 1969.

I wonder if the connection to Isaac and Miriam Jones is on Miriam's line. She was Owens prior to her marriage and she had connections with Gyffin. she lived there is the 1841 and 1861 census. In the 1861 census she states she was born in Llangelynin. I shall attempt to look into this when time permits.

The tree on Ancestry shows Robert Jones married Elizabeth Anne Williams in Conwy Registration District in the September quarter of 1877. Vol 11b Page 716. I don't know if it would help you to post more details from that tree here. Please let me know.

I think we can say for certain that Robert Jones who lived in Pen Y Groes, Ffordd Maenan, Llanwrst, and who died in July 1916, is the father of John Jones. The basis for this is his is given as the father of Thomas Owen Jones on the WW1 sevice papers and his address is as above. His address is also shown the grave for him in Llanddoged. Why was he buried in Llanddoged? It suggests there is a family connection with that place.

Freereg has a baptism for a Robert Jones in Llanddoged on 10/12/1854, son of John and Grace Jones of Tan y Celyn, carpenter. It is worth bearing in mind.

There is a baptism for Elizabeth Anne Williams in St Mary and All Saints, Conwy, on 26/03/1851. She was the daughter of Thomas and Isabella Williams. Again, it is worth noting as a possible for Elizabeth, Robert's wife. It shows she is older than Robert and it could be she is a bit older than she claimed when they filled in the census.

[Hugo]

There is a baptism for Elizabeth Anne Williams in St Mary and All Saints, Conwy, on 26/03/1851. She was the daughter of Thomas and Isabella Williams. Again, it is worth noting as a possible for Elizabeth, Robert's wife. It shows she is older than Robert and it could be she is a bit older than she claimed when they filled in the census.

Helig, it's only just an observation but I don't think that this Elizabeth is John Jones' mother.   First of all the Census records show that she wasn't born until at least 1953.   I know that info in the Census should only be taken as a guide but if she was born in Llandudno or even Llanrhos then the Baptism would either be in St Tudno's or St Hilary's Churches.
I know that Conwy Archives has certain Baptism records there because I found my own Baptism record at the Archives
If AJ looks at them then she might find the answer and other info too

[Helig]

I posted this as a possible for his mother and agree that the records for Llandudno and Llanrhos need to be examined in order to see if there is an Elizabeth Anne Williams baptised there. I note there is a birth registered in Conwy RD in the March quarter of 1854 for Elizabeth Ann Williams. The only other birth registration for a lady of that name is the one in Conwy RD in the March quarter of 1851.

I do think John Jones was born in 1881, so it is feasible that lady baptised in Conwy could be his mother.

[Helig]

There is an Elizabeth Williams shown on census returns in Llandudno. Her parents are Robert Williams and Eleanor (Ellen) Hughes. In the 1861 census she is aged 8 and living in Llandudno with her family. The census shows South Part of Llandudno parish division but I cannot make out the residence. The next one is Pentreisaf.

There are 14 Family Trees for her on Ancestry and these show she died in 1920 in Llanwrst, others have she died in Maenan. Some are clearly incorrect.

[Hugo]

Helig,    I used Free Cen and the 1861 Census showed the same details as you found:-
Robert Williams aged 47 born Llanrhos
Ellen Williams (wife )  aged 48 born Chester
Elizabeth Williams Daughter aged 8    born Llandudno
The address is Ty Hen  (old house )  from the description on your findings it must have been on the flat land of Llandudno near the Parish boundary

[AJ]

Thank you all so much.
I was wondering if Miriam and Isaac actually registered the births of their children.  Do we know if there is a full list of the children?  What i don't inderstand is my nain definatly said that one of her nains sold tea on the Orme, that is how the search statrted because I read Miriam's story years later.  Perhaps Elizabeth was one of the children they took in or may have worked with her,
It's a shame that the death certificate won't have the date of birth, I gave them lots of information such as parents, wife, address place of death and reason, they did say there were incredabily busy

[Hugo]

Stick with it AJ and I'm sure that you'll solve this.     I would just like to add this to all the info you have collected and it's this.     Helig found out the marriage between Isaac and Miriam was in 1861.   We believe that Miriam was Miriam Owens who lived in Pen Y Mynydd Isaf Farm ( aka Pink Farm on the Great Orme.
Pink Farm also sold refreshments so Miriam would have been involved there as well as in her own place at the Gogarth Tea Rooms on the Marine Drive

From 1837 it was the law for the registration of births , marriages and deaths so I think that Isaac and Miriam would have registered them and the Conwy Archives should have the Church records there.     I bet someone, somewhere has a full list of the children but the question is where is the list?

[Helig]

I like the picture of Pink Farm and used to do a walk through there when I lived in Llandudno. I had a number of walks on the Great Orme that I did regularly. My mother spoke of it doing teas and refreshments.

I have had a quick look at Miriam Owens she is proving quite difficult to track back. The claim they had 15 children is a bit suspect as far as I am concerned. Would one of the local historians be able to assist with this? What appears to be their first child, Ellen born 1860, was registered under the name of Owens. Could there be other children registered under that name? I shall pursue this but am not optimistic about being successful with it. I should think the local archives would have some information on them.

I found this which covers their story if you scroll down to The Family of Cave Dwellers.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/secret-llandudno-history-unknown-facts-14239141

[Hugo]

There are some lovely walks by Pink Farm Helig and you can just make out the "Teas" on the room of the building
It would be so much easier to do this search for AJ if we knew that someone had already completed a family tree for Isaac and Miriam.   I've had a good go on the Free Reg sites and have had a few red herrings that can't be confirmed.
I think like yourself that the answers lie in the Archives and a visit there may get the answers.       If AJ is unable to visit the Archives I'll try and go there myself but I don't know when I'll be able to do so

[Helig]

Yes, this is a tricky one to track so as to be able to establish the facts for certain.

I have looked at the 1861 census for a William Owen(s) at Wyddfyd where Miriam said she was living in the marriage certificate. This shows that Wyddfyd Farm has a family headed by John Williams living there. He is a farmer of 40 acres born Llandudno. There is then Penymynydd Ucha which has Richard Davies at the head. He is a Farmer of 27 acres and born Llandudno. The next one is Penymnydd Isa which has William Owen head of the family. He is a farmer of 30 acres born Llandudno. The household comprises:

William Owen, head, married, age 53, Farmer of 30 acres born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owen, wife, age 57, born Llandudno.
Mary A Owen, daughter, age 15, born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owen, daughter, age 13, born Llandudno
Jane Owen, age 9, daughter, born Llandudno
Margaret Owen, age 6, daughter, born Llandudno
Elizabeth Williams, age 19, servant. born Eglwys Rhos
Evan Jones, age 18, Carter, born Eglwys Rhos.

In the 1851 census the family is shown as Owens and they are living in Penymynydd. It seesm to be the same family as it is as follows:

William Owens, head, married, age 42, Farmer born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owens, wife, age 41, born Llandudno
Mary Owens, daughter, age 5, born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owens, daughter, age 3, born Llandudno
David Williams servant age 26, ag lab, born Llangwstenin
Catherine Jones, servant, age 24,  born Denbigh Llandrillo
Susanna Davies visitor, age 70, born Denbigh Llandrillo

In this census the residence before this is the Telegraph Station. The one after it is the vicarage.

Hugo, I wonder if you would be able to identify this place as what we now know as Pink Farm. Do you have any idea when they started doing teas etc? William would be of an age to be Miriam's father but the name is Owen, not Owens.

I seem to think Miriam was born c1831 so it will be more difficult to prove anything for her. I cannot find a baptism but in the census returns she shows she was born in a number of different places.

[Cambrian]

I think Pink Farm was known as Penymynydd Inn at one time and later (by 1939) was Pink Farm Inn.

Penymynydd Ucha was the dwelling nearest the tram line and Penymynydd Isaf was the one further north.

Just a guess but I wonder if it became confusing with two Penymynydds in close proximity so the Ucha one became generally known as Pink Farm.  "Inn" suggests refreshment was provided and at some stage the alcohol licence was either surrendered or revoked and teas provided instead.