Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof

[Bri Roberts]

I remember many years ago viewing what I believe to be large tithe maps where the land leased by Pwllygwichiad went all the way down Mostyn Street and there was another parcel of land over by the Risboro’ Hotel as we know it today.

KHCYMROCANADA, the book recommended by Hugo has an ISBN 1-84524-095-2 and then below 978-1-84524-095-0.

Btw, you may come across the name of Hugh Hughes during your research. He was a well-respected artist residing for a while at Pwllygwichiad prior to the Jones family moving in.

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thanks to Bri Roberts.

I had also seen the Hugh Hughes info. Thank you. This confused me to start with since the Jones side of the family (much later) ended up marrying a Hughes with roots that also went back to Amlwch and I wondered whether there was a connection here. I don’t believe so.

I am experiencing all the usual problems when dealing with these common Welsh surnames - although work on my mother’s side of the family - with what you’d think would be less common surnames - is resulting in very similar dead ends!

[Hugo]

That's interesting KHCYMROCANADA  about the Hughes name as my name is Hughes too, also my mother's maiden name was Hughes and her mother was from Amlwch

One relation on my mother's side married Harry Whittle and Harry & Peggy went off to Canada to live but that's too much of a coincidence to be your relative

Names and addresses can be spelt differently but if you need anything specific looking at just post it on here and someone may have the answer for you

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thanks Hugo.

Yes - that would be way too much of a coincidence. Your ancestors’ names have not come up in my research.

I am Bangor born/bred and emigrated to Canada in the late eighties.

To complicate matters further for me, I also married a Hughes. My wife’s side of the family (Hughes/Llanllechid and Evans/Brynsiencyn) are presenting similar challenges with their common surnames!

[Helig]

1851 census entry for Pwllygwichiad.

Edward Owen, Head, married, age 38, Farmer, born Llandudno.
Mary Owen, wife, age 30, born Llanasa, Flintshire.
Thomas Owen, son, age 1, born Llandudno.
Owen Roberts, servant, age 28, Farmer's servant, born Llanyffraid, Denbighshire.
Thomas Owen, servant, age 17, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born (entries crossed out).
John Jones, servant, age 27, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Flintshire, Llanasa.
Thomas Foulkes, servant, age 26, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Llanasa, Flintshire.
Owen Jones, servant, age 36, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Llanelian, Denbighshire.
Margaret Williams, servant, age 17, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Holywell, Flintshire.
Joseph Hughes, visitor, unmarried, age 29, born Flintshire, Whitford.

It isn't as easy to identify it in the 1841 census. The spelling isn't the same. I think this is it:

Pwyllygwyrd.

Elizabeth Jones, age 70, Farmer, born in county.
Robert Jones, age 30, Farmer, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 30, Independent, not born in county.
John Jones, age 35, Independent, born in county.
John Jones, age 9, born in county
Owen Jones, age 5, born in county.
Harriet Jones, age 3, not born in county.

The 1871 census for Isaac and Miriam Jones:

Gogarth Head, Rogo

Isaac Jones, Head, married, age 62, Fishmonger, born Liverpool, Lancashire.
Miriam Jones, wife, age 38, born Llangelynin, Caernarvon.
Ellen Jones, daughter, age 11, scholar, born Liverpool.
Katurah Jones, daughter, age 9, scholar, born Llandudno.
John Jones, son, age 6, born Llandudno.
Isaac Jones, son, age 5, born Llandudno.
Rhebecah Jones, daughter, age 1, born Llandudno.

Miriam Owens married Isaac Jones in 1861. In view of his age, was this his second marriage?

In 1881, Isaac, Miriam and Rebecca are living at Gogarth, Isaac is aged 71, no occupation, Miriam is aged 50, Charwoman, and Rebecca aged 11.

I can look for other years on request.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Isaac and Miriam Jones were still living in Gogarth Cave  ( where St Petrocks is ) in the 1871 Census and they moved to the Gogarth Tea Rooms in about 1878 when the Marine Drive was built

[Helig]

There are four Family Trees on Ancestry for Isaac Jones. This is definitely the same person as we are interested in. These trees show the same details, there is no guarantee they are correct. They show Isaac was born 29 March 1813, Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf, Anglesey. He was the son of Hugh Jones and Elizabeth Perry. Isaac was baptised on 11 May 1813in the Calvinistic Methodist chapel at Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf. Hugh Jones was a Farmer of Panty Soar according to the baptism details. The parish register shows the maiden name of Elizabeth to be Jones.

They show the marriage to Miriam Owen in Llandudno on 13 November 1861.

Their children are shown as follows:

Ellen born 1860 Liverpool.
Margaret, born 1862, Llandudno. Died 1862.
Katurah, born 1862, Llandudno. She appears to be a twin of Margaret, both born 22 April 1862.
John I Jones, born 1863, Llandudno.
Isaac, born1865, Llandudno.
Rhebecah, born 1869 Llandudno.

The trees also show a John Jones born 1865, Llandudno.
Jane Jones born 1864, Llanwrst.
Hugh Jones, born 1866 Llanwrst
Martha Jones born 1867 Llandudno.
Mary Jones born 1875, Llanwrst

I am wary of some of the ones in the second list as they cannot be verified with census entries and it seems odd that children were born in Llanwrst when they lived in Llandudno. The John Jones born 1865 fits in with the 1871 census however. All the Family Trees on Ancestry have to be treated with caution as so many of them are incorrect.

Some of the children are shown as having died in Liverpool. I cannot find anything for Isaac Jones born c1809 in Liverpool as shown on the 1871 and 1881 census returns.

Helig.

Helig.

[Bri Roberts]

It isn't as easy to identify it in the 1841 census. The spelling isn't the same. I think this is it:

Pwyllygwyrd.

Elizabeth Jones, age 70, Farmer, born in county.
Robert Jones, age 30, Farmer, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 30, Independent, not born in county.
John Jones, age 35, Independent, born in county.
John Jones, age 9, born in county
Owen Jones, age 5, born in county.
Harriet Jones, age 3, not born in county

I suspect this is the same John Jones who is named on the baptismal register for Eglwysrhos but left blank on the birth certificate of my Gt Gt Grandmother born in July 1837.

[Helig]

Re Hugo's comments about the residence of Isaac and Miriam in the 1871, I think that Rogo is a corruption of Yr Ogof. Could be the enumerator was English with a poor understanding of Welsh.

I have searched Freereg for baptisms of the children of Isaac and Miriam. These are the results:

St Tudno, Llandudno:
baptised 21 April 1862, Keturah, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones. Margaret baptised on the same date.
20 December 1863, John Jones, son of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
27 August 1865, Isaac Jones, son of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
23 September 1867, Martha, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
23 September 1867, Mary, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
5 March 1870, Rebecca, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones.


It would be interesting to know whether they had two sets of twins, or if it was a case of having two children baptised at the same time.

Just to complicate matters there are children being baptised recorded as of Isaac and Mary Jones. These were as follows:

St Tudno,

24 December 1860, baptised Isaac Robert, son of Isaac and Mary Jones.
24 December 1860, Mary Catherine Jones, daughter of Isaac and Mary Jones.
6 May 1865, Ann Ellen , daughter of Isaac and Mary Jones.

It look as though this is a different couple as the dates of birth would be impossible if it was the same people.

Helig

[Hugo]

You are correct about the nickname Rogo, it was Yr Ogof and anglicised and corrupted to Rogo.

According to Ivor Wynne Jones in his book Llandudno Queen of the Welsh resorts Isaac and Miriam lived in the cave for 40 years and had reared 15 children, including 3 sets of twins

[Helig]

That is some feat and just goes to show how modern ideas about hygiene are suspect. I wonder where the other baptisms are?

I have found Miriam Owens in the 1861 census. She is a Boarder in the household of Evan Williams and his wife, Catherine. They are living in Bodidda in the parish of Gyffin. Miriam Owens is shown as unmarried, age 30 and a Foul Dealer by occupation, born Llangelynin. She has a daughter, Ellen Owens, age 11 months, born Liverpool.

Miriam appears to have been living in Gyffin in the 1841 and 1851 census returns. In the 1851 census, she is with her brother, John Owen, age 34 and a Fowl Dealer. John is married with two children,one of whom is named Keturah. John Owen was born in Dwygyfylchi

Had Pwllygwichiad ceased to exist by 1861? I cannot see it in that census and noticed how much Llandudno had been developed in the 10 years prior to that.

Helig.

[Bri Roberts]

Had Pwllygwichiad ceased to exist by 1861? I cannot see it in that census and noticed how much Llandudno had been developed in the 10 years prior to that.

Helig.

That has always been my belief.

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you all.

I apologise for my absence from the forum over the last couple of days. I have been busy researching - and driving myself crazy!

I was not expecting you all to do so much research - very much appreciated. I will need to print off this string and go through it more carefully and cross reference names/dates.

Based on earlier info provided in this string, and since I am pretty confident in the Pwllygwichiad ancestry (still less so in the Yr Ogof connection - and have not yet connected the Yr Ogof family to the Pwllygwichiads) I have been focusing on the Richard Jones born/baptised in Llandudno in 1817 as my primary suspect as the father of Edward Jones. Llandudno baptism records (see attached) show Richard’s parents, Peter and Elizabeth Jones, were of Pwllygwichiad.

I have a Peter Jones (1787-1834) from others’ online trees but have been unable to verify that this is the correct Peter. Neither have I yet been able to confirmed the details of the Peter/Elizabeth marriage (circa 1800?).

I found other Peter/Elizabeth Jones childrens’ baptisms in Llandudno (FindMyPast) - but the image attached to the Richard entry is the only one that indicates Pwllygwichiad - so unable to confirm whether these are all siblings (particularly with the suspicious gap between the first and last named and the other, evenly spaced, children).

Elizabeth - 1792 (Gyffin)
Hugh - 1802
William - 1804
John - 1806
Robert - 1808
Margaret - 1810
Richard - 1817

Also still having difficulty making progress on finding Richard Jones’ marriage (circa 1830/35?) and any other children (espy Edward’s brother Joseph mentioned in his obituary).

I have, however, discovered - from my mother’s records - that Edward Jones married in 1899 in a Manchester Registry office with both he and his wife (Elizabeth Williams) having Manchester addresses at that time. Edward’s father, Richard, is shown as a fishmonger (no details as to where).

It seems that Richard may have relocated to Manchester(?) sometime in the mid/late 1800’s and may have married/had children there? I have found an envelope addressed to him in Manchester. The date stamp is smudged and illegible.

This might explain why Edward married there and why his brother, Joseph, came from Liverpool to Edward’s funeral?

Thank you all again for all your help.

(PS: I thought I had actually posted this yesterday - but must have made an error.)

[KHCYMROCANADA]

I also meant to say that you have all done more than enough research on this topic on my behalf. Again - thank you.

Unless for your own interest, please do not feel the need to do more. My outstanding questions are largely rhetorical and not seeking answers from you!

Diolch eto.

[Bri Roberts]

Perhaps, there are one or two facts here that may help your research.