Points to Ponder

[Dave]

The Telegraph puts things in perspective regarding the current terror scare:

Graphs comparing numbers killed over the years in UK & Europe --

"Terror is killing far fewer people in the UK now than it was in the 1980s [and 1970s]"
"Despite public concern, the terror threat in Europe is relatively low​"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/many-people-killed-terrorist-attacks-uk/

It's all very dreadful but how many people were killed on the roads yesterday? The last published records show 132 people died on London's roads alone in 2013.
That said, it doesn't make the horror of recent terrorist attacks the less worrying but knee jerk reactions like rounding up thousands of people will only cause greater division and probably create more terrorists and support for terrorism.
Arming the police? Maybe we should ask them first if they all want to be armed,not all do. After all in London there were armed officers on the scene within 2 minutes.You can't expect much better.
I do agree that foreigners who commit crimes should be deported immediately they have completed their sentences but that hasn't been possible due to European Court rulings on human rights. ( Yes I know, crazy).
It's also true that a policeman who shoots dead a suspect will be suspended from duty while an independent enquiry takes place and a ruling on that will take up to 2 years. What a waste of manpower and training but on the other hand look at the number of people shot dead by the police in the USA, some as we have seen have been totally unjustifiable ( and it also questions the sense in arming all police officers).  In the case of rampaging terrorists it's pretty obvious that they have taken the right decision. Enquiry should take place in the background whilst the officer is still deployed just to double check operational procedures couldn't have been improved.Should be concluded in weeks not years.

[BMD]

Btw, the above Telegraph article says we're more likely to be killed by dogs than by terrorists.

I guess we should be vigilant with Afghan Hounds.

[SteveH]

Llandudno engineering firm claims Welsh Government loan snub hits jobs
North Wales Engineering Solutions bosses say they would get support if they ran a tourism business.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-engineering-firm-claims-welsh-13137462

[Ian]

I've temporarily hidden the topic started by John Oddy until we can achieve a consensus as to its status.

I do believe we have to examine and debate controversial topics, and the current terrorist attacks are the current issue. John may sound extreme, but he was cautious about his wording and, despite some feeling it was in breach of the law, my feeling is that it wasn't. But his last post bears discussion: what is the solution?

The two main aspects of civilisation that have incurred war, death and destruction over the past 5000 years are language and religion. Have we not moved beyond that?

[Hugo]

Sadly, I don't think we have Ian.     Although we are a very tolerant nation, others are not so and would prefer that we still live in the Biblical times.
If they don't believe in democracy and don't integrate with their host nation how can we all get along?        If anyone objects then others may think that the person is racist but all they are saying are facts.

[Ian]

This is a post by the British Humanist Association:

The solution is to deal with the education of the kids growing up - so many of these people are 'educated' UK nationals. The communities seem to be determined to isolate themselves.

The problem is that our education system reinforces these isolationist tendencies. We allow faith schools to exist that segregate kids on the basis of religion (and therefore race) - we all have this warm and cuddly idea of the CofE "Tea and Scones on the lawn with the vicar" Faith school, but if you allow that then you have to allow the Jewish and the Muslim schools that are much more extreme. We allow Madrassas to educate children with no effective control, we allow 'illegal' schools to exist with the tacit approval of local councils - some of them not even teaching in English and certainly not teaching any recognised curriculum. In the everyday state schools we allow RE to be taught on the basis of what the religions want kids to hear*, as the curriculum is determined by the local SACRE (Standing Advisory Committee on Religious Education) full of local faith leaders - thus there is no element of teaching about such issues as critical thinking, the nature of truth, competing claims, conflict or ritualised abuse in religion.

We are creating this situation ourselves.

* I've mentioned before a presentation to a local secondary school where the Muslim (a teacher at a local state faith school) said "Islam means Peace. There is no compulsion in Islam" and then continued his entire presentation in Arabic (presumably a recital from the Koran or a prayer). Later, over lunch we got him to admit that a child of a Muslim family who had decided for himself that he wasn't a believer should "Keep it to himself" but he would be regarded as a traitor and the correct punishment would be death. If this is the behaviour of a 'Moderate Muslim' (moderate enough to be invited to present at a secondary school) then imagine what is going on at his faith school.

[SteveH]

I found this interesting.....

Britain Funding Separateness, Not Integration.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5323/trojan-horse

further topics
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/topics/37/europes-migrant-crisis

[Ian]

We certainly need to discuss this. These are intelligent arguments made by informed people. They're not wild statements intended to provoke. But shutting down debate is dangerously counter productive.

[DaveR]

If they don't believe in democracy and don't integrate with their host nation how can we all get along?

That's it in a nutshell, really. I think the UK is guilty of being far too tolerant of such extremist behaviour over the years. Providing shelter for those in genuine need is one thing, allowing people who hate us and everything we stand for to move to this country is quite unacceptable.

Regarding John's post, he is entitled to his views and censorship of debate (as Ian has already pointed out) is counter-productive.

[SteveH]

Another topic from the Gatestone institute.....

Why Do Muslims Flock to The "Evil West"?

Quote "In reality, millions of Muslims are trying, through dangerous ways, to reach the borders of a civilization they have historically blamed for all the world's evils, including in their own countries'. Turkey's leaders are blaming non-Muslims for the tragedy. But they do not speak a single word about super hydrocarbon-rich Muslim countries in their own neighborhood: Not a word about Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman (all of which employ large numbers of Asian workers) has taken a single Muslim Syrian refugee."

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6488/muslims-evil-west

[born2run]

That name sounded surprisingly reputable for the claptrap they are publishing so I did a quick online search

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute

http://www.alternet.org/investigations/one-americas-most-dangerous-think-tanks-spreading-islamophobic-hate-across-atlantic

You have to be careful what links you are sharing, more often than not they'll be from right wing extremists like this.

[born2run]

If they don't believe in democracy and don't integrate with their host nation how can we all get along?

That's it in a nutshell, really. I think the UK is guilty of being far too tolerant of such extremist behaviour over the years. Providing shelter for those in genuine need is one thing, allowing people who hate us and everything we stand for to move to this country is quite unacceptable.

Regarding John's post, he is entitled to his views and censorship of debate (as Ian has already pointed out) is counter-productive.

For the record I don't particularly want you to censor anything but nor do I want you to get into trouble for publishing hate speech.

You say that he's 'entitled to his views' does that mean that Muslim hate preachers are also entitled to their views? Because what he published (banning Islam, deporting anyone who practised it, deporting family members of anyone who practices Islam ) are entirely similar to those hate preachers but in reverse.

[Fester]

Is getting killed on the roads a growing threat BMD?
Have Afghan hounds declared direct war on you and your way of life?

Those who try and put this threat into some kind of perspective, merely trivialise it.
You only feel complacent in this way because it hasn't affected YOU, YET!

I hope to God it never does, or your 'roses around the door' outlook on life will never be the same again.

[Fester]

I've not been on the forum for a few days,  I can't see this contraversial post by John Oddy, nor any replies.
If it doesn't break the law, can't you display it?

[SteveH]

That name sounded surprisingly reputable for the claptrap they are publishing so I did a quick online search
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute
http://www.alternet.org/investigations/one-americas-most-dangerous-think-tanks-spreading-islamophobic-hate-across-atlantic
You have to be careful what links you are sharing, more often than not they'll be from right wing extremists like this.

I was aware that they were right wing, but hardly "extremists"  nor "claptrap", (I also found that they referenced the more reputable newspapers), and as I said I found the articles interesting and informative, and hopefully debatable.