Points to Ponder

[Ian]

Interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/07/shootings-iranian-parliament-khomeini-shrine

Iran does arm all its police and revolutionary guard all the time.

[DaveR]

The only way forward is to get the communities themselves to reject and report these people.

Indeed, but what happens when you have a situation where a significant minority of the community in question shows some degree of sympathy towards the aims of the terrorists?

[DaveR]

Denmark doesn't arm all its police, neither do Switzerland, Austria, Finland, France, Germany,  the Netherlands, New Zealand, Jamaica, Australia, South Africa or Sweden.

But my point was really about having Police routinely armed with those MP5s. That's what we see most of the time, and they're remarkably indiscriminate weapons - a sort of 9mm fly spray, in effect. But when you say

We have seen several recent terrorist attacks where Police on the scene were unable to deal with the terrorist due to lack of a gun, and ended up dead/seriously injured as a result.

I can recall the officer who was stabbed in Westminster but not really any others. And the aspect that characterised all the recent attacks has been surprise. A lot of people can get killed by a vehicle before anyone can stop it or react.

When they do react, as in the most recent incident, they shot the attackers 50 odd times. The problem then is that you get no more information from them. And I do think the USA is an excellent case study as to why arming everyone - the logical extension of arming all police - is not necessarily the best idea. 

I'm not sure many think of the UK as 'a bastion of decency and civilised behaviour that does not require armed police', because there are many occasions which would suggest otherwise - I agree. But the simple fact is that although Teresa May presided over the greatest cuts to the Police force in years, when she reduced the force and armed officers from a high under Labour's administration, offences didn't rise and in fact fell. What was more striking was that the number of firearm offences plummeted.

So we obviously need armed response officers, but arming all the police is not going to be effective unless you have enough police to have one on every road in every town at every minute. Which, again, is just what Daesh would like us to do. Think of the Manchester attack.  How would armed police have saved anyone in that instance? No one noticed the attacker until he detonated his bomb.

Or think of the Westminster and London Bridge attacks. The heavily armed police killed them within minutes, yet by that time the damage had already been done. How would having armed police have stopped the vehicle mowing down the pedestrians?

It's very tempting and understandable to demand we arm all the police but every scrap of information we have tells us that it won't work.

Every Police officer I've ever seen in my travels around Europe has been armed, with a hand gun at very least.

In the case of the latest attack, a BTP officer was first on the scene and was stabbed in the face as he took on the terrorists. Had he been armed, he could have shot them and prevented their stabbing spree taking place.

"A single police officer was stabbed in the face as he took on the three attackers behind to the terrorist rampage at London Bridge. The British Transport Police officer was attacked and injured as he waited for back-up from armed police."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-transport-police-officer-stabbed-face-took-on-terrorisist-alone-rushing-to-help-london-a7771751.html

[Ian]

In the case of the latest attack, a BTP officer was first on the scene and was stabbed in the face as he took on the terrorists. Had he been armed, he could have shot them and prevented their stabbing spree taking place.

Perhaps.  It's not clear from the article if any or most of the stabbing had already taken place however.

    The only way forward is to get the communities themselves to reject and report these people.

Indeed, but what happens when you have a situation where a significant minority of the community in question shows some degree of sympathy towards the aims of the terrorists?

This is exactly the situation that prevailed during the '80s with the IRA. It's not going to be easy, whatever approach is taken. However, the IRA were not suicide killers, nor did they target children, although their bombs did kill them.  I believe the Manchester incident was a serious miscalculation in terms of the potential support these people might have enjoyed.

I do believe we have to start when they're young. That also seems to be the intent of Daesh. But we have to get the entire community on side.  In the latest case it does seem that the killers had been reported to police, with one even having featured heavily in a documentary by Channel 4.  Channel 4, however, claimed that the police had made no formal requests for the media evidence nor the transcripts. Quite a bit of blame to go around, I suspect.

[SteveH]

The suggestion of arming all police officers with lethal weapons, in my opinion will never happen, the majority of P.O.'s do not want to carry guns, as much as the public might want them to, not everyone is capable of being responsible for the death of another, even if it is justified.

Former Met deputy assistant commissioner Brian Paddick
"front-line officers would not be keen to face the agonising, split-second decisions faced by their counterparts in specialist firearms units."

"Every case in which a police officer has shot someone brings it home to unarmed officers the sheer weight of responsibility that their colleagues face."

I also think if it was made compulsory, a large number would leave, and future recruitment would be affected, however a large percentage of officers have no objection to carrying non lethal weapons Tasers etc.

[SteveH]

Banned, drunk 100mph driver who only stopped when tank ran dry swerves jail
Dale Joseph Hughes, who has never passed a driving test, admitted dangerous driving, drink driving, driving whilst disqualified and possessing illegal drugs.     http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/banned-drunk-100mph-driver-who-13345193       

[Ian]

That's an interesting case if only because it highlights the impotency of the law in dealing with career offenders. What do you do with someone who's quite happy to break every law they can and take so many and varied substances that they have no memory left of what they did?

[SteveH]

I feel sorry for the Police, the frustration at this type of justice, on the other hand, those in court "who should have known better" get hammered.

[Ian]

Quite.

[Fester]

That's an interesting case if only because it highlights the impotency of the law in dealing with career offenders. What do you do with someone who's quite happy to break every law they can and take so many and varied substances that they have no memory left of what they did?

 

[Fester]

Remember the points system that I advocated a couple of years ago?
If that had been implemented, then this individual wouldn't have existed to commit those crimes.

[SteveH]

After the Grenfell tower disaster, the government are investigating the potential risks to other buildings from exterior cladding......

I watched the TV program "Inside London Fire Brigade" last night, one incident, a new build with the fire within the internal wall insulation.

It's the type of insulation that has a foil coating as a fire retardant, (used in walls and ceilings).....but they already know the foam insulation is flammable ?

I think we are sitting on a time bomb.

and this morning on the BBC.

A large fire has ripped through a residential 79-storey skyscraper in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates - for the second time in two years.
That fire, and other recent blazes in the city, spread quickly because of external cladding, according to fire engineering consultancy Tenable Dubai.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40822269

[SteveH]

More people will die from fires started by faulty white goods if ministers do not act to implement recommendations, the London Fire Brigade, the city's mayor, and safety groups have warned.
In a letter to Theresa May, they say some fridges and freezers are being sold with a flammable plastic backing.
People continue to use products that are subject to recalls.

"Worse still, some fridges and freezers are still being produced with a flammable plastic backing, which offers very little protection against the insulation foam inside catching alight if a fire starts."
There have been 2,170 fires in London involving white goods since 2010, the fire brigade said.
It wants the government to put a single register of product recalls, including all international recalls, on its website.
It also wants risk assessments to be published when a fault is identified and for the "sleeping risk" to be included in these assessments.

The fire service said it was "extremely concerned" that "no substantial changes" have been made in the product recall system since then.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40991800

[SteveH]

Re my post 578 20/1/17....

I never understood why Dylan's was given a tourism grant for a private restaurant business, but apparently not the only one....

This is where North Wales tourism grant cash has gone...and how many jobs it has created
A list of the recipients of the tourism funding, including Dylan's and Greenwood and even Shel Restaurant(Porth Eirias) managed a grant on top of the monies already spent..... has been released.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/north-wales-tourism-grant-cash-13531002

And some of the comments...

"Much as I admire Sean Taylor & Zip World for the revenue they undoubtedly bring to the region, he does himself no favours with the 'Starbucks Defence' - that is "look how much VAT we pay back".

This is a complete red herring.  Businesses do not pay VAT. The end customers pay the VAT, the business merely collects it for the taxman, and hands it over every quarter.

As for the 'additional tax from the jobs' - unless the jobs are full time and paying well over the Income Tax threshold, and the employees are not then claiming back tax credits; there's actually no real take payback at all.
Perhaps a journalist could ask 'how many Full Time jobs have been created (not just Full Time Equivalent)'.


"The directors of Dylan's restaurant must be laughing all the way to the bank, £330,000 of taxpayers money given to this company over 3 years, whose wildly expensive menus would not attract the average man in the street. Absolute disgrace and their should be complaints made to Audit Wales about the unfairness of grant aided projects given at the whim of a faceless jobsworth in Cardiff.  £330,000 pounds would have assisted many small businesses currently fighting to survive due to lack of financial assistance.


"I agree. I suppose they gave the money in the thinking that it would attract "High End diners"  in the belief that it would attract /Entertain high end tourists - Like a filter down effect. Trying to make North Wales in a Monaco - It feels like a playground sometimes.

 I sometimes wonder if the WAG is trying to social engineer a command economy in Wales.  You are certainly right in the unfairness.  If a business needs such a large Capital sum of money, it should apply for a bank loan, and service that debt at the risk of the business, not a grant of us tax payers, including business tax payers of other eateries.

[DaveR]

Looking at that list (below), it would seem that there aren't many new businesses that have setup without some form of grant from WG. I'm personally ok with offering money to support such things, but it should be treated as a loan and repaid, even if interest free, over a period of 10 years.

2016/2017

■ Zip World Ltd & Zip World Fforest Ltd (Signage) Bethesda & Betws Y Coed, Gwynedd £11,500
■ Erskine Arms, Conwy, £140,000
■ Conwy Adventure Leisure Ltd (Signage) Dolgarrog, Conwy £7,947
■ Furnace Farm Ltd, Bodnant Welsh Food Centre (Signage) Tal y Cafn Conwy £3,489
■ National Beekeeping Centre CIC (Signage)Tal y Cafn, Conwy, £1,676
■ Zip World Forest Ltd, Betws Y Coed, Conwy, £320,000
■ Sport Wales, Plas Menai National Outdoor Centre Caernarfon, £170,000
■ Ty Glyndwr, Caernarfon, £25,000
■ Plas Yn Dre, Bala £72,000
■ Dylans Restaurant, Llandudno £190,000
■ Pontcysyllte Tea Rooms Llangollen £30,000

2015/2016

Catch 22 Brasserie Limited Valley Anglesey £65,000 Trecks
Bunkhouse Llan Ffestiniog Gwynedd £5,000
Greenwood Forest Park Y Felinheli Gwynedd £250,000
The Crown Hotel Barmouth Gwynedd £85,400
Enoteca Y Felinheli Gwynedd £30,000
Kinmel Arms Abergele Conwy £7,257
Iscoyd Park LLP Whitchurch Wrexham £35,000
Venu Bar Company Ltd Pwllheli Gwynedd £38,250
The Trotting Mare Caravan Park Ltd Overton Wrexham £5,000

2014/2015

Ship Hotel Aberdaron Gwynedd £45,000
Pen y Garth Lodge Park Bala Gwynedd £30,000
Cyngor Cymuned Llanengan Abersoch Gwynedd £25,000
Nant Gwrtheryn Nefyn Gwynedd £80,000
Dylans Restaurant Criccieth Gwynedd £140,000
Shel Restaurant(Porth Eirias) Colwyn Bay Conwy £135,000
Sea Shanty Restaurant Trearddur Bay Anglesey £134,050
Olif Betws Betws-Y-Coed Conwy £12,176
Lodge Holidays Ltd Bryn Refail, Nr Llanberis Gwynedd £16,512
Cwrw Llyn Pwllheli Gwynedd £10,000