Jones family of LLandudno

[Hugo]

I'm a bit puzzled by certain dates and also places.   I've found a site where I can search the Census records for free but I've only been able to find them because I know the various ways that the towns etc were spelt in the old days.
I've got the 1851 Census up and it shows the following info:-

Tan y Wal      John          Jones     Head      age  34       Stone Mason           born   Llangystennin
                     Elizabeth        "        wife            "                                               "      Llanbedr
                     Anne              "         dau            "   4                                          "      Llanrhos
                     Joseph           "         son             "  2                                          "             "
                     Pierce             "         son            "   6 months                             "             "

Now that would mean that he was born  C 1817   and that is what I based my search for the marriage on but that disagrees with the burial inscription and all the other Census records.      I'm going to have to go back to the Archives to recheck everything but won't be able to do so until some time in January 2017. 

In answer to your question about   "I wonder if Hugo could look in the archives to see if he can find their baptisms in these years?"   I'll gladly do it but John's will be in Llangystennin and I've already found numerous John Jones'  but the DOB is crucial because there were so many.

Now you have also mentioned this "There is a Family Tree on Ancestry which has this line and it shows John Jones born 1814, Llangystenin, father Evan Jones. There are some details on this which are incorrect so it cannot be relied on as being accurate."
I have posted a copy of that marriage on Mull's postings but am not entirely convinced that this is the relation that we are looking for.
It won't be easy to find because of so many John Jones' living in Llangystennin and being born around the same time, it's not impossible because the records are in the Conwy Archives but it will be time consuming because we need to be certain that we have the right person.

[Helig]

Thank you for this information, Hugo. It will be impossible to obtain a date of birth for John Jones. The baptism records are all we have to go on back then. This often causes problems in Welsh genealogy as there are so few surnames and christian names tend to be relatively few as well. In my case I have an ancestor, Mary Williams, b1790, Ysceifiog. When I looked through the parish registers of Ysceifiog for that year, there were three girls baptised by the name of Mary Williams, there is no way of knowing which one was my relative.

I have looked for Richard Hughes in the 1911 census and he is living in Tan y Wal with his wife, Anne. At the time his occupation was Railway Outside Luggage Porter. They have no other family with them.

Richard Hughes is in Tan y Wal in the 1901 census, along with Anne, his wife, and their son, Hugh Hughes. Richard's occupation is Bricklayer and Hugh Hughes is a Shoemaker and seller.

I shall do some more research on Hugh Hughes again. At the moment he looks to be living at Tan Y Wal in the 1911 census, married to Elizabeth and a Boot repairer. This is shown as a separate household from his parents. It shows they have been married for 5 years and had one child which died. Elizabeth was born in Abergele. I will do more on this again.

I wonder whether they worked as Stonemasons in the quarries on the Little Orme? If my memory serves me right, I think  there was a quarry on Nant y Gamar at one time.

Could they very elderly lady in the photograph be Elizabeth Jones? I say this because she lived to a good age and whoever is in the photo looks to be a possible fit. I am not sure if there are any other contenders.

Helig.

[mull]

If you look up Tan y Wal in the Penrhynside book it shows Hugh Hughes as being a Railway carrier. I take it this would be picking up and delivering items around Llandudno.
The book says Hugh had a pony and cart that he kept at Tan Y Wal. Did he carry on after Richard  his father gave it up ?

[Hugo]

That's a lot of really good info you have been able to get Helig, you must have been very busy on the computer.   It's going to be very hard to find the birth details for John Jones but it may not be impossible.
I've seen such records made in a note book but most are in proper registers.  Sometimes the Census records are misleading especially the one for 1841 as peoples ages are rounded down to the nearest 5 years for some reason.
A  24 year would have their age shown as 20 and like wise a 29 year old would be shown as 25 that's quite strange.

I think that John may have been born C1811    but when I check any records I look at them 10 years either side just in case.     There was a large quarry in Nant Y Gamar as well as Penrhyn Bay and Llangystennin also had a big quarry there too.

[Cambrian]

Just a couple of observations on the railway side.

Until the early 1970s, the railway operators provided a "Passengers' Luggage in Advance" service.  This meant that your luggage could be sent ahead and delivered directly to the hotel or guest house in which you were staying to await your arrival. Similarly luggage could be collected for the return journey.  As can be imagined, this was a significantly used facility for Llandudno to the extent that a separate "PLA" shed was built adjoining the station in order to store the various items.  All the luggage was placed therein and delivered locally by railway carriers (or carters as they were also known).  The outside porters were self-employed but licensed by the railway to "tout" for work meeting trains and carrying passengers' luggage usually with a handcart.  There were also "Town Porters" licensed by the Council to act as general carriers within the town. The Llandudno UDC had a set of Bye-Laws regulating the activities of the outside porters and prescribing a schedule of charges depending on the distance from the station to particular streets.  The outside porters were not in railway uniform but displayed an official, brass armlet displaying their individual number.

[Helig]

I have been trying to find John Jones in the 1841 census. There look to be two possibilities for him. The first is in Llandudno, living on the lower slopes of the Gt Orme, near the King's Head. The house name is Green Hill. The whole page is difficult to read as this census was written in pencil.

It has: John Jones, age 30, Ag Lab, born in the same county.
            Elizabeth Jones, age 25, born in same county.
            Mary Jones, age 1, born in same county.

The second is in the household of Thomas Jones in Eglwys Rhos. This shows:

Tyn fr On (not sure about that)

Thomas Jones, age 60, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Mary Jones, age 60, not born in same county.
John Jones, age 30, Ag Lab, bon in same county.
Mary Jones, age 40, not born in same county.
Elizabeth Jones age 17, born in same county.
Thomas Jones, age 7, born in same county.
Robert Jones age 3, born in same county.
David Thomas, age 10, born in same county.

There is another possible for him in Caerhun, I think Elizabeth came from there. This John Jones is married to Elizabeth as well.

I am doubtful about the marriage in 1844 being the right one for him. I would have expected him to have married before that. Also, if his father was named Evan, it would have been usual to name a son of his after his father. In general, the naming pattern was first son after the paternal grandfather, first daughter after the paternal grandmother.

I then found an entry in Eglwys Rhos as follows:

Abode: Pen y Park, John Jones, age 65, Miner, born in same county.
                                Anne Jones, age 60, born in same county.
                               John Jones age 25, Mason, born in same county.
                               William Jones, age 20, Miner, born in same county.

We know that John Jones and Elizabeth had children named John and Anne. The occupation of Mason fits as well.

To be continued...

Helig

[Hugo]

Just an observation Helig,   the Census counts were usually done in the very last days of March but sometimes in the first few days of April so the age of a person cannot accurately be determined.
In the cases of John and Elizabeth most of the Census records that you have found show that John is the younger of the two.
In the 1841 Census you have now shown it has shown John as aged 30 and Elizabeth as 25 but as I pointed out for that year only, the age was rounded down to the nearest 5 years.   Therefore John was in the age group of 30-34  and Elizabeth was in the age group of 25 -29.
John could have been 30 and Elizabeth 29 as their ages were very close, however Elizabeth was the older one so it's possible that the Jones' living at Greenhill were not the ones we are looking for.

It's really hard with so many people called John Jones and so many red herrings.   In January I'll call again at the Archives and go through the records again and like you I am not convinced about the marriage certificate for 1844.

[Hugo]

What makes it difficult to trace John Jones is that we don't actually have an address for him other than the Parish address of Llangystennin.
Now Llangystennin Parish covered the villages of Llangystennin,  Glanwydden,  Mochdre,  Bryn Pydew, Pabo and Marl (modern day Llandudno Junction)
I've found a number of John Jones' in that area and time frame but can't tell which one is the John we are looking for.   A number of house names have come up for these Jones families that have also come up on a previous search for the Roberts family of Glanwydden.     
This Roberts family had relatives that lived just below Tan Y Wal in Penrhynside and I know that JaneP  has done a lot of research in the area we are looking at.
Hopefully if Jane reads this she may be able to help us solve the matter

[Hugo]

I've just had a check of what we have found so far and the 1861 Census puts John Jones' age as 47 so this would mean that he was born C1814  and that year disagrees with every thing that we have found.
I had a look at Find my Past and put 1812  +/-  2 years  and they do not show all the Baptisms for Llangystennin in that period so I'm not going to search on line any more but will look at the Church's records and make a list of each entry for a John Jones

[Micox]

This may be less than helpful Hugo. My maternal Gt grandfather was John Jones, Dob 1837 in Llanfair Caereinion. He married Ann Jones Dob 1835 in Llanwyddellan. They moved to Welshpool and worked in various Inns in menial jobs. They had most of their children in Welshpool, including my Nain, Rose Stallard (nee Jones) Dob 1857. John Jones also eventually had horse drawn transport and latterly would spend the summer season in Llandudno (how he got around the many tolls I don't know) working as a taxi. Sometime between 1860 and 1870 Ann got suspicious about the amount of money John was spending on booze so she upped sticks with all her many children and emigrated to Llandudno (via Liverpool I understand, getting to Llandudno by boat and being carried ashore). The family were in grinding poverty and they managed to get a home in one of Back Madoc Street's yards.  Ann died about 1895 and John (who, I'm told, slept with his horse) died around 1903 and is buried in the fold section of St Tudno's. Rose married Frederick Stallard - apparently they met while working in the Birmingham Arms - and they founded the many generations of Stallards scattered throughout the town. The Jones connections are numerous too, including the Yr'Ogos. If this is of any interest at all I do have many more details, including names.  ZXZ

[Helig]

Yes, the 1841 census entries for John Jones are a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. Un less there is a way of identifying him for sure, it amounts to guess work.

I did wonder if their marriage might have been elsewhere as Elizabeth is shown as born Caerhun in most census returns. In one it shows she was born Llanbedr. It was the custom to marry in the bride's parish. So, could their marriage have been in one of those parishes? I would favour Caerhun as that is shown as her place of birth in most of the census returns.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Helig,  Llanbedr or Llanbedr Y Cennin to give the village it's full name was in the Parish of Caerhun which was in Caernarvonshire.     The Birth/Baptism/Marriage records are in the Caerhun Registers which are in the Conwy Archives.
I've made a list of all the Census records that have been found and I make it that John was born about 1811 and Elizabeth was born about 1812.     That narrows it down a bit but you found something in the 1891 Census that was very interesting and could be the breakthrough that we need.
In the 1891 Census aged 79 the name Elizabeth Anne Jones is recorded and this was the first indication that Elizabeth also had a middle name,   That information could be crucial for when I look at the Caerhun Registers and may quicken the search for the couple.

I'll search for her records first and then look at the Llangystennin Parish Registers and will post my findings on here

[Hugo]

Hi Mike, it was good to hear from you and hope that you had a good Christmas over there in Norfolk.   I've followed all your posts on the Jones,Stallard/Cox  with a lot of interest and you realise how lucky our generation is compared to the hardships that our ancestors went through.   
I often wished that I had asked my parents more about our family as I now have loads of photos of people that I can't put a name to it's a shame really.   
As regards this topic I am only doing the research of the direct line of Mull and also Chad which takes them back to about 1811 then they may want to expand the search to include other family members.
The Jones (Yr Ogof) story is fascinating and I'm surprised that no one has made a family tree to include everyone descended from Isaac and Miriam.  In fact I didn't realise that Ted Yr Ogof was their G Grandson and with so many descendants I bet most of the Jones in the Llandudno area could be related in someway but I'll leave that to others to work out.

Blwyddyn Newydd Dda Mike         

[Helig]

The details we have about the children of John Jones and Elizabeth show they had the following:

(1851 census) Anne, age 4, born Llanrhos
                      Joseph, age 2, born Llanrhos
                      Pierce, age 6 months, born Llanrhos.
(1861 census) William, age 8, born Eglwys Rhos
                      John, age 4, born Eglwys Rhos.

That gives their years of birth as follows:

Anne c1847
Joseph, c1849
Pierce 1850 (known as a fact)
William c1853
John, c1857.

I wonder whether it is possible to find their baptisms to see if these show some useful information, such as where they lived at the time?

I have done a place search of the 1841 census for Eglwys Rhos but couldn't find Tan y Wal. do we know when it was built?

The entry I listed before for John Jones, age 25, Mason, living in Pen y Park looks as though it may be interesting. On the previous page, living in Pen y B--rth (?) there is a family as follows:

Evan Jones, age 60, Ag Lab, born in same county.
William Jones, age 35, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Elinor Jones, age 35, not born in same county
William Jones, age 3, born in same county.
Anne Jones, age 1, born in same county.

Find my Past has transcribed this house, or street name as Pen y Park.

John Jones living in Pen y Park is the fourth house along from Evan Jones. It may not be significant but the house before that of Evan Jones is shown as Graig Llwyd and I am sure I have come across that before.

It occurs to me that the easiest way of determining the details for the wife of John Jones would be to obtain the birth certificate of Pierce Jones. It is in Conwy Registration District, volume 27, page 335. It was registered in the December quarter of 1850. North Wales BMD shows that it is held in Conwy County Borough (Llandudno) reference Creuddyn/05/48.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Helig,  Tan Y Wal is a cottage of 17th century origins so it will be in the 1841 Census somewhere.    It's located in Bryn Gwynt Lane in Penrhynside and was in the Parish of Eglwysrhos.
A little higher up the lane is a single storey cottage called Graig Llwyd. I don't know where Pen Y Park is but I've seen Pen Y Buarth when I've been out walking so they should also be in Penrhynside.
Now the Baptism records may show some info but we do know that they were born when the were living at Tan Y Wal and that is in the Parish of Eglwysrhos  (Llanrhos)

John and Elizabeth's daughter Anne was born about 1846 but had they had any children prior to that?    In any event that marriage certificate I found in 1844 is still a possibility although we are both not entirely convinced that they are Mull's relatives.  John Jones lived somewhere in the Parish of Llangystennin which was the adjoining Parish to Eglwysrhos.

What I'm going to concentrate on is Elizabeth Anne who was born in Llanbedr Y Cennin and was born about 1812.   I'll look at the Birth/ Baptism/ Marriage register in the Archives and just hope that something turns up there.   I've got a lot on this coming week so I don't know when I can go to the Archives though.