Jones family of LLandudno

[rhuddlan]

 Hugo says.... I've got a lot on this coming week so I don't know when I can go to the Archives though.
Answer....
Presumably you will be correcting the headlights on your car, ready for our next outing!
 I agree with Tellytuby, we could have some fun discussing your problems Hugo, but  it would be too dangerous  to cast the first stone , says the  ex gra...a kid in sunny Fv!

[Hugo]

Presumably you will be correcting the headlights on your car, ready for our next outing!

I went out last night and it seemed like the headlights  had sorted themselves out but then I realised that there was only me in the car!       

[Helig]

Hugo, thank you for the information on Tan y Wal etc. The place name is Pen y Buarth, the writing is faint and the letters u and a are difficult to read. I did look carefully at the house and street names but Tan y Wal eluded me. I will try again next week. Could it have been called something else at one time? I recognised some of the names of other places. It isn't too hard to search the 1841 census for Eglwys Rhos parish as there are only 2 districts and 8 pages in each.

It occurred to me that Anne might not the their first born child. John Jones would have been c32 years of age in 1846. It isn't impossible but if the 1844 marriage is right, it would be usual for them to have a child before 1846.

In the past I am sure I have seen entries for the Caerhun parish registers on Freereg but cannot get anything up for these now. I seem to think the parish registers for Llangystennin were on there too. I don't have much success with their new site.

Helig

[Hugo]

Helig, you've been a wizard on the computer finding out so much information about the family, I wouldn't know where to start on some of the sites.     I'm fortunate in that I have lived in this area all my life and that I have some knowledge of the Welsh language, also the Archives where they have many original  records is very near to where I live.

Years ago Welsh houses had names that described the property or where it was located and in this instance Tan Y Wal  ( under the wall)  describes the location of the property.   Names of houses were not changed like they are now and I think that Tan Y Wal must have been the original name.
Over the years street names have changed but we don't need to worry about that in this case as Penrhynside was only a very small community

I'll look at the Caerhun Registers asap  and I'm hoping that the name Elizabeth Anne will be easier to find that of John Jones     

I hope that you have a good Hogmanay up there and Blwyddyn Newydd Dda  too.       

[mull]

Thank you again to those of you who have come up with so much information.
In my case I will be glad to see the back of 2016.

Bliadhna Mhath Ur for 2017.

[Hugo]

Make sure that you don't get too legless with the Hogmany tonight as that leg is still on the mend.    Good health and best wishes for 2017 Mull

[ckirkrph]

Hey guys, hope 2017 has treated you all well so far! I was looking back at some of your conversation and it is funny, because I too had a lot of trouble with John Jones year of birth. I did find some info that made me think  they (John and Elizabeth Jones (Williams )) had a son 1st named John. I think he might have married a Catherine and an Ann. This 1st son John I found was born 1832.Then Mary Jones 1843, Ellen Jones 1845, Thomas Jones 1845, Ann Jones (Hughes) 1847, David Jones 1849, Joseph Jones 1850, Pierce Jones 1850,  William Jones 1853, John Jones 1858. I found a birth certificate for Pierce Jones, which proved me wrong that possibly he wasn't originally named Pierce, but he was. Born  November 3rd, 1850 at Tan Wal. Name Pierce, father's name John Jones, mother Elizabeth Jones formerly Williams. He was registered November 22nd, 1850. I did find a marriage record for a John Jones and Elizabeth Williams. Married May 11th 1838. Married at St David's church in the parish of Liverpool county of Lancaster.  John's father's name is listed as Peter Jones, Elizabeth's father listed as William Williams. Those to witness was Robert Roberts and Margaret Jones. Let me know your thoughts! Chad

[Hugo]

If you look at family records from those old days you sometimes notice that they had two sons or daughters with the same name which does sound strange.
However this is usually because the first named child has died but I've got doubts that the first John you found b 1832  is  your relative.

My reason for thinking this is:-
John and Elizabeth didn't get married until 1838 and although not impossible that was very unusual in those days.
Secondly there is an unexplained age gap for the children from 1832 to 1843

Your search has thrown up a lot of info that I can follow in our local Archives, one of which is why the children from 1845 and back were not shown in the 1851 Census.
Perhaps they had died as young children and if they had died at Tan Y Wal then they may also be buried at the Glanwydden Cemetery.   All being well I'm hoping to go to the Archives on Thursday and we'll see what turns up.

[ckirkrph]

Hmm, I see what you mean. I had wondered if they had come from a previous marriage of hers. Ahh, the joys of on line searching!! Will keep looking! Chad

[Hugo]

I did go to the Archives as promised but did not find anything there to help in the search for John and Elizabeth Jones' origins.

I first looked at the Burial Index for Capel Ainon and looked through the entire book but there were no graves for the Jones family of Tan Y Wal other than the two graves that we already know about.    If those children Mary, Thomas and Ellen died before the 1851 Census then they may have been buried elsewhere.

The Baptism/ Burial Register for Caerhun that I looked at covered from the early 1700's to 1812.  In that Register there was no entry for an Elizabeth Anne but there were seven entries for an Elizabeth between 1810 and 1812 and there was definitely no entry for a William Williams as father of any of the seven Elizabeths that I have found and recorded in my notes. So no luck there.

I then looked at the Baptism Register for Llangwstennin where John Jones was born.   I looked at the records for a Baptism of a John Jones between 1809 and 1812 and there were only two recorded in that period which is when John would have been born and Baptised
The first entry was:-
27th May 2010      John born to Richard Jones and Anne his wife  but no address given.
The second was:-
23rd August 1812       John born to Richard Jones and Mary his wife.  The address given looked like Gist

Due to a lack of time I did not look at any Marriage Registers so for now it's still a mystery

[Helig]

Hugo, thank you for your efforts and sorry you didn't make much progress with this. I have been laid up with an evil lurgy for over a week and just getting back on my feet now. I will try to do some more next week.

I did wonder whether John Jones may have been married twice but at the moment, there is no definite evidence to support this.

Helig.

[Hugo]

My sympathy with the dreaded lurgy Helig, not very nice indeed.    I've been lucky so far but Mrs H  caught it over Christmas.

I haven't given up on finding them yet but it's time consuming and also frustrating when you don't find anything.     I'll be back in the Archives sometime to look at a couple of things.  I have access to the original records here which should make it easier but it's still hard to prove anything with such a common name.

Chad has found a record of a Marriage between John and Elizabeth in Liverpool in 1838 but I've now got serious doubts about that being the one we are looking for.    That's only because there was no Peter Jones or William Williams mentioned in the Baptism records that I looked at but we can't discount it though just in case there are other Church records that I didn't see at the Archives.

[Helig]

Hugo, I can sympathise with the efforts and time you have put in with little benefit from it.

I am wondering if the places shown in the 1841 census are street names, rather than house names. The area we are searching is in District 2 of Eglwys Rhos. Page 3 has names as: Penrhyn .. Farm Yard, Graig Llwyd (which has 3 households), Pen y Buarth (two households), Pany y Ehill; Page 4 has Penyffordd, Pon y Belin, Pen y Gaer, Pen y Park, Gloddaeth Isa Farm Yard, Ty Llwyd,  ---- y Graig, Ty Newydd.

I recognise Gloddaeth Isa but none of  the rest. Do any of these names mean anything to you please? I lived in Penrhyn Bay in the 1960s and used to walk all over the area. I know down by Penrhyn Old Hall and Gloddaeth Woods, plus the Penrhynside area by that. I didn't take much notice of street names back then but know Penrhynside was developed on a largeish scale shortly after that era.

Are there any street, or trade, directories which might help us identify the places and people living there for that time period?

As far as the parish registers are concerned, I have wondered whether they may have been non conformist. This would complicate it as the registers of many of the non conformist chapels did not survive. There is a Genuki page on Llangystennin:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llangwstennin

It is impossible to be certain of entries on many of the online sites as the names are so common, the proverbial needle and haystack. My view is that this might only be solved by obtaining the birth certificate of Pierce Jones since this would show his mother's maiden name. Even then, it might not be easy to identify the marriage.

I trust Mrs H is recovering well now.

Best wishes,

Helig.







 

[mull]

During 1800s there must have been many non conformists living in Penrhynside area.
It was known as the Holy City in the 1950s, 5 churches and 2 public houses.
Church of Wales/England was St Sannan, and if my memory is correct it was a tin building and Hugh Hughes was a member of the congregation.
There were 4 non conformist chapels of different denominations, Nain(Grace Ellen Jones) attended the chapel next door to the Cross Keys.

[Hugo]

Mrs H is better now Helig and thanks for your concern.   I'm going to the Archives this week and there are two Registers I need to look at but if I have no luck there either, then your suggestion of  getting a birth certificate for Pierce Jones would be the best idea.   However that would be up to Mull or Chad to work out as there is a charge for those forms.

As far as I am aware they did not have street names in those days and the names that you have supplied are all house names, some I know and some I don't.   The only trouble is that some records just show the Parish address and Eglwysrhos has Penrhynside,  Llanrhos,  Tywyn,  Deganwy,  Llandudno and probably other places too,  so the address could be anywhere in that Parish.
The ones you have named though all appear to be in the Penrhynside area.

I'll post my findings on here when I have had a look at the other Registers in the Archives