Author Topic: Walking  (Read 822430 times)

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Offline Fester

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1140 on: August 04, 2013, 09:32:58 pm »
I think my original point was a much wider one, although it seems to have turned into a fanciful nostalgic journey about luxurious rolling stock and monorails.

My original point was borne out of concern, in fact worry, about the young people of today being able to aspire to some of the finer things in life we have all benefitted from.

When I was the same age as my daughter is now, everywhere I turned there was well-paid employment, always with a pension, always with good advancement prospects and bonuses.... and often with a company car included.

This is not for the Walking thread, I admit, but it seems to me that it is much harder now for the youngsters.
There is now only one wage,   THE wage,  the minimum wage.
Free bus fares was the original point.  What I feel about that is that it came from an era of 'fictitious' wealth, borrowed money... as did the bloated value of our houses.
Fester...
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Offline Ian

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1141 on: August 05, 2013, 07:45:29 am »
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This is not for the Walking thread, I admit, but it seems to me that it is much harder now for the youngsters.
There is now only one wage,   THE wage,  the minimum wage.

That's simply wrong.  There are still extremely good jobs with all the perks you mention to those willing to become suitably qualified. Youngsters who gain degrees in Engineering, for instance, will find no shortage of good jobs available. This fanciful nostalgic image you seem to have of "well-paid employment, always with a pension, always with good advancement prospects and bonuses.... and often with a company car included" did exist - for those suitably qualified. But for those who were unable - for one reason or another - to become suitably qualified, before the minimum wage was introduced, they were frequently paid as little as the employer could get away with.

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Free bus fares was the original point.  What I feel about that is that it came from an era of 'fictitious' wealth, borrowed money... as did the bloated value of our houses.

On that we agree. In fact, we can even trace the start of all this fictitious wealth to which you refer: it came about when the greatest con trick of all time was mounted - the decision to sell back to those who already owned them the nationalised industries. It continued when building society after building society suddenly declared itself a bank, promising all manner of goodies if the members voted in favour of the conversion. Suddenly, those who'd had a few quid in a Building society account for ten years found themselves the recipient of a wad of cash. That, plus the essential rationale on which the capitalist economic system is predicated - speculation - ensured that money was apparently in abundance.  Except no one queried where it was all coming from - until it didn't.

Free Bus passes, however, are a different issue, partly because they seek to assist less fortunate members of society, for instance those who may no longer be able to drive, or those who live in remote areas. It's true that issuing them to everyone on the basis of age is a little odd, but I seem to remember there was a study done when it was first mooted which suggested it was actually cheaper to issue them to everyone as means testing each applicant would actually cost more.  The other aspect was that the wealthier would probably choose not to travel on public transport, anyway. I suppose the cities don't all have the delights of the Conwy Valley line.

Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.


Offline Ian

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1142 on: August 05, 2013, 07:49:32 am »
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It would require a miracle, rather than imagination, Ian, as I don't believe there is any suitable rolling stock on the UK railway network today. Design & construction of a single new observation carriage would easily reach well into six figures. A shame, as it would be an excellent idea.

Yes, but what about buying in a couple second-hand from those who already use them? Even allowing for transport by container to these shores, I bet that'd be a lot cheaper.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Bri Roberts

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1143 on: August 05, 2013, 08:35:21 am »
I am sorry, Ian, but that Rocky Mountaineer would never squeeze through the long tunnel leading into Blaenau Ffestiniog.

Do you think if they abandoned the Concessionary Travel Pass or stopped it being used on the Conwy Valley Line, would the line remain financially viable?

Offline Ian

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1144 on: August 05, 2013, 08:57:06 am »
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that Rocky Mountaineer would never squeeze through the long tunnel leading into Blaenau Ffestiniog

Yes - some of the curve radii on the line are very tight, I'd noticed that. But I suspect there are similar requirements on other railways, some of whom might want to flog a couple of the shorter coaches. We should consult our resident rail expert.  Any ideas, ME?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1145 on: August 05, 2013, 09:03:45 am »
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Do you think if they abandoned the Concessionary Travel Pass or stopped it being used on the Conwy Valley Line, would the line remain financially viable?

The WA is considering upgrading the line to carry slate from BF but I'm guessing that without utilising the line's numerous attractions and marketing it carefully then it would struggle. But this is precisely why Railways tend to be operated by governments in most countries. They're expensive things to maintain.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1146 on: August 05, 2013, 09:08:04 am »
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It would require a miracle, rather than imagination, Ian, as I don't believe there is any suitable rolling stock on the UK railway network today. Design & construction of a single new observation carriage would easily reach well into six figures. A shame, as it would be an excellent idea.

Yes, but what about buying in a couple second-hand from those who already use them? Even allowing for transport by container to these shores, I bet that'd be a lot cheaper.
I doubt that foreign rolling stock would work on UK railways due to operational/design differences. At very least, significant modifications and testing would be required before permission could be obtained to use them.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1147 on: August 05, 2013, 09:09:41 am »
I am sorry, Ian, but that Rocky Mountaineer would never squeeze through the long tunnel leading into Blaenau Ffestiniog.

Do you think if they abandoned the Concessionary Travel Pass or stopped it being used on the Conwy Valley Line, would the line remain financially viable?
The line has NEVER been financially viable, Bri, so it wouldn't make a lot of difference. As a community/visitor transport method, however, it has great value.

Offline Ian

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1148 on: August 05, 2013, 09:31:48 am »
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I doubt that foreign rolling stock would work on UK railways due to operational/design differences. At very least, significant modifications and testing would be required before permission could be obtained to use them.

As to the second part, yes;  I imagine the biggest stumbling block would be insurance.  But much of the UK stock is or has been made abroad, anyway, so I'm not sure.  New coaches cost £1m+, which is unsustainable, but I wonder how much it would cost to convert existing stock?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1149 on: August 05, 2013, 09:48:49 am »
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that Rocky Mountaineer would never squeeze through the long tunnel leading into Blaenau Ffestiniog

Yes - some of the curve radii on the line are very tight, I'd noticed that. But I suspect there are similar requirements on other railways, some of whom might want to flog a couple of the shorter coaches. We should consult our resident rail expert.  Any ideas, ME?

Me an expert?  :laugh: I love the old preserved lines, especially the Festiniog Railway of which I am a member and shareholder. I always found that the old DMUs from the Sixties, with their larger windows gave the best views on a scenic railway (as used on the preserved Llangollen Railway). I'm sure there would be many problems using foreign stock, loading gauge, braking systems for a start, would any companies be interested anyway? The Conwy Valley line could no doubt be marketed much better than it is, some time ago I tried to find the fares online, not easy, seems it is in fact very cheap, it would be good to see regular steam on it too if viable! The biggest problem though is that railways are very expensive to run and a good percentage of passengers do not pay (I am in favour of free passes for retired people, they've paid enough taxes over the years! )
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Offline DaveR

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1150 on: August 05, 2013, 10:03:06 am »
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I doubt that foreign rolling stock would work on UK railways due to operational/design differences. At very least, significant modifications and testing would be required before permission could be obtained to use them.

As to the second part, yes;  I imagine the biggest stumbling block would be insurance.  But much of the UK stock is or has been made abroad, anyway, so I'm not sure.  New coaches cost £1m+, which is unsustainable, but I wonder how much it would cost to convert existing stock?
Made abroad, yes, but to UK specification, that's the difference.

Perhaps the Conwy Valley line should be handed over to the Festiniog Railway to operate. They could use heritage DMUs like Class 101s and the odd steam train as a visitor attraction, whilst maintaining or even enhancing the current timetable in order to receive a yearly subsidy from WG.

Offline hollins

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1151 on: August 05, 2013, 10:13:27 am »
If volunteers can do it.......WHR photos.

Offline Ian

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1152 on: August 05, 2013, 10:20:28 am »
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Made abroad, yes, but to UK specification, that's the difference.

Indeed, but I'd be interested to know how UK requirements differ.  Presumably they'll be the rail equivalent of the Custom and use regulations that cover vehicles.

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Perhaps the Conwy Valley line should be handed over to the Festiniog Railway to operate. They could use heritage DMUs and the odd steam train as a visitor attraction, whilst maintaining or even enhancing the current timetable in order to receive a yearly subsidy from WG.

It was actually those lines - Highland as well - that made me wonder just how difficult it is to run bought-in stock on our lines. I know there are some pretty stringent regs covering the inter-city stock, but that's because of the speeds they attain. The Conwy Valley trains rarely exceed 50mph flat-out, downhill with the wind behind them and - I'm guessing - with observation carriages they'd actually go a lot slower so people could - you know - observe :-))  But the heritage aspect is appealing and could have some mileage.

Trains are incredibly appealing to folk and I just think Arriva could do a lot more than they do at the moment to market that line.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1153 on: August 05, 2013, 10:26:39 am »
H's pics of the WHR (very nice, H:-) and a recent visit to the Virgin train website brought another thing to mind: hiring a train for a special party. You can hire any Virgin train or just a carriage, if you wish, for parties, excursions or just private travel, so I wonder if Arriva would do the same?  Or - and here's a thought for the entrepreneurs - what if someone formed a limited company that would hire an Arriva train, then sell that train for the day to companies for training or management bonding exercises.  The company could provide catering, cleaning, and any extras requested.  On the longest single-track line in the UK, could it be a money-spinner?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SDQ

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Re: Walking
« Reply #1154 on: August 05, 2013, 10:36:03 am »
H's pics of the WHR (very nice, H:-) and a recent visit to the Virgin train website brought another thing to mind: hiring a train for a special party. You can hire any Virgin train or just a carriage, if you wish, for parties, excursions or just private travel, so In wonder if Arriva would do the same?  Or - and here's a thought for the entrepreneurs - what if someone formed a limited company that would hire an Arriva train, then sell that train for the day to companies for training or management bonding exercises.  The company could provide catering, cleaning, and any extras requested.  On the longest single-track line in the UK, could it be a money-spinner?


The biggest problem with that is the fragmented privatised railway. As well as hiring a train from a TOC you would then have to negotiate with Network Rail to run it on the infrastructure between the many scheduled services that run daily.
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