Thomas and Emma WILLIAMS possibly of Caerhun

[Helig]

Hello Jom,

I haven't read the full thread of this post but recall having looked at this in the past.

I wouldn't give up on this as there is so much more information going online all the time. I have searched Ancestry to see if I can find anyone with this family tree but this was unsuccessful. I did find John's marriage in Daventry and note that he didn't show his father as deceased at that time. This doesn't always happen but John is shown as a widower. He would have been about 48 at the time of this marriage in 1865. I would be surprised if he didn't have children from his first marriage which would be expected to be c1837/8. I saw he had a number of children with Martha Elliot. Have you tried tracing these down to find a living relative?

Have you found John, or Mary, on census returns from 1861 onwards? There is a John Williams in Llandudno in the 1861 census. He is shown as age 39, born Caerhun and a gardener but this age doesn't quite agree his birth year. He is in the household of John Jones, age 24 and a bricklayer. This could be him as it would mean he was able to remarry in 1865.

I will have a further look at this when time permits. Let me know if you prefer to give up!

[Helig]

I have just found 15 Family Trees on Ancestry for John Williams. Some of them don't give information but you can contact the tree owner for this. One has Thomas Williams born 1799 but no source for this date. I would try these as they contain a substantial amount of information on this family. They all show Thomas Williams died 3 April 1857 in Old Road, Llandudno.

[jom]

Thanks helig

I know who these relatives are.  Whilst they have Thomas bn 1799 and died 1857, I'm pretty sure Thomas was born earlier because he married 1812.  Through this outlet and others, I'm pretty happy that I'm on the right track with his wife being Emma Evans and kids Mary bn 1814 and John bn 1817.
Of course the age on the death cert can easily be wrong.  It wasn't a family member who was the informant of his death, though Thomas was noted a shoemaker.  If this is my Thomas' death cert, I'm unable to find him on any census records
I have all the records for son John and families.  His first marriage was to Catherine Hughes in 1856 but she died in childbirth that same year.

He married my g  g gmother in 1865 and then went to live at the old Telegraph
Living relatives seem as stuck as me

[jom]

I was wondering if there are any directories for Llandudno 1856 or 1857 which might help me place the Thomas Williams who did 1857.  I haven't been able to find him in the census returns

[jom]

I was wondering if there are any directories for Llandudno 1856 or 1857 which might help me place the Thomas Williams who died 1857.  I haven't been able to find him in the census returns. For llandudno,caerhun, llanrwst

[jom]

I was wondering if there are any directories for Llandudno 1856 or 1857 which might help me place the Thomas Williams who died 1857.  I haven't been able to find him in the census returns. For llandudno,caerhun, llanrwst

[Helig]

I think it was possible for people to marry at much younger ages back then. I have read that boys could marry at age 13/14 and girls at age 12.

The age shown on the death certificate may be wrong but it is the only evidence we have.

Can you post his marriage certificate to Emma please?

What might explain some of the mysteries is an entry in the Criminal Registers for the County Assizes in Denbighshire. It is dated being for the year 1838 and shows Thomas Williams age 42 being convicted of horse stealing on 24th March and sentenced to transportation for 15 years. It is impossible to know if that is the right person as it is such a common name. It could explain why he cannot be found on census returns and the death you have would be in some doubt.

[jom]

Hi Helig

Thanks so much for your thoughts.  I have reached out to my "cousin" again to obtain her thoughts.

I have attached the marriage record hopefully!  Obviously I appreciate the age noted on the death certificate for the Thomas who died in 1857 may well be wrong especially as it doesn't seem to be a family member as the informant.

There is another theory which is that there is a Thomas WILLIAMS who got 3 months at Denbigh Assizes for bigamy (no occupation) in 1843 aged 65 who had an alias of JONES but not satisfactorily tracked him down.

I do wonder if Thomas' parents might be John and Elizabeth of Llanrwst bp 1769 but no further evidence to suggest they are the correct people.  Too many variables

I presume ther are no Llandudno street directories for 1856 and earlier to trace the shoemaker of Old road back?

Look forward to your thoughts and no I'll never give up 

[Helig]

Hello Jom,

Thank you for posting the marriage banns for Thomas and Emma. I had obtained these on Ancestry but wanted to check they were the correct ones. I am dubious about the death certificate being for the right Thomas Williams. There is no possibility of verifying this with other information for Thomas. In the circumstances I think it should be regarded as a possible death for him but not certain. Assuming Emma was born c1772, I should have thought Thomas would have been born within 5 years either way of that. A 27 year age difference is unlikely. Having said that I knew a couple who had a 20 year age difference, he was 20 years younger than his wife and they were happily married for over 40 years.

I have found Mary Williams with her daughter, Mary Lloyd (Pritchard) in the 1881 census. Mary Williams is aged 67 and shown as Mother in law. They are living in Plough St, Llanwrst. I agree that it appears Mary Pritchard married John Lloyd in 1875. I wonder why Mary was named Pritchard if she was illegitimate? It would be usual for an illegitimate child to be given the mother's surname. I see Mary Lloyd died in 1918 and is buried in St Mary's, Llanwrst. The 1911 census shows John and Mary Lloyd had 7 children of whom 5 were still living.

I cannot help you with the directories as I don't live near Llandudno. The last time I was there they kept a number of these in the library there. The record offices would be able to help you with this query. There is the Caernarfonshire RO:

https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/Residents/Libraries-and-archives/Archives-and-family-history/Archives-and-family-history.aspx

Plus the Denbighshire RO:

https://www.newa.wales/

I seem to be out of date with their names.

Ancestry seems to be playing up today so I will pursue this again.

[Helig]

I don't know if this is of any interest to you:

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llanrhychwyn

It shows just how spread out this was and that it was very rural. Bear in mind that the non conformist chapels were able to baptise people but were not licensed for marriages. I wonder if there were non conformist links to this family which would make it difficult as few of their registers survive.

[jom]

Hi Helig
Many thanks for those tips.  Particularly like the North East Wales Archives site.  One to keep in mind.  Not really had any other thoughts as yet but always thinking.  Thanks for the tips

[Helig]

I did have another think on this over the weekend. I am doubtful whether you will solve this by online research only. It would be useful to search the parish registers for a baptism for Thomas Williams the problem is which registers would you need to search (or have searched). I reckon Llanwrst would be a good start, followed by Conwy and Rowen, possibly Caerhun. You would be the best person to decide which places to look at as you have by far the best knowledge of the family.

The information you have on Emma is corroborated by census returns, death certificate etc. Since the 1851 census shows her to be a widow, I think I would accept that which means you need to look for a burial, or death, for Thomas prior to that. He is missing from the 1841 census too, that didn't require people to state their status, so it is likely he had died before that. He would have been alive when the children were baptised so the period in question is 1817-1841 (possibly 1851). I reckon Llanwrst would be a good place to look. I have attempted a search on Ancestry and Find my Past but nothing shows up for him. It it possible the parish registers of burials haven't been transcribed as yet for Llanwrst, or other possible places.

I suspect Thomas's age would be quite near to Mary's and c1770-1775. I note Mary's age wanders a bit, 76 in the 1851 census and 88 in 1860. Ancestry shows her baptism as being in Caerhun on 29 March 1775, "Daughter of Edward Evans of the shoemaker by Mary his wife".

I think the best bet would be to try and find his death, or burial, and work back from that.

[jom]

Thanks for your thoughts.  I have tried that on numerous occasions over the years as per this thread ancestry etc.  Very kindly people have searched the l9cal archives too. 
Just trying anything which might provide a clue.

Really appreciate your ideas and support

[Helig]

There is nothing coming up on either Ancestry, or Find my Past so I looked at Freereg for some possible matches for Thomas Williams. There were two burials in St Grwst, Llanwrst which might fit. The first in 25/02/1829, Thomas Williams buried age 52. That gives a year of birth as 1777. The second was on 11/06/1836, age 68. That is born c1768. The search was for the years 1817 to 1841. Of the 9 results these were the only two possible matches.

I did another search from 1841-1851 and this produced 5 results. The only one that looked possible was a burial on 14/06/1849, age 71. The year of birth would be c1778.

There is a death certificate registered for the one in 1849 but the others are pre registration.

It is all a bit strange as they married for the first time so late in life. My initial impression that it must be second marriage for both but the Banns state they were bachelor and spinster. Could this be wrong?

[jom]

I'd forgotten about freereg though certain I've checked it out previously. 
I have seen all three records in the past looking at previous search histories.
The 1849 record is for a Thomas WILLIAMS of Capel Curig.  I don't know of any connection with this place, so feel it is less likely
The other two are certainly possibles and I do have both records in my unconfirmed folder, already.  The first who was buried in 1829 was noted as being of Llanrwst whereas the second (Buried 1836) was noted as being of Brynsyllty.  I presume this is an area of Llanrwst or a house name but have not been able to find it to see if it relates to Emma's later residences.
None of these entries state an occupation, sadly.
I obviously favour either the 1829 or the 1836 entries as USUALLY the simplist answer is more likely rather than getting in to "well if he's not with the family in 1841, where was he?" etc.

I shall revisit my searches for the two more likely Thomas' and see if any family result at either "addresses" in baptism records etc to try to disprove their mine!!