Thomas and Emma WILLIAMS possibly of Caerhun

[jom]

I have been looking for this couple off and on for a while now and since a previous comment quite some time ago in "Great Orme Cemetery", I think, I have a little more information, which may help in my search.

Thomas WILLIAMS was born probably Caernarvonshire, may be Caerhun/Rowen.  He was a shoemaker.

His wife Emma was born about 1772/75 in Caerhun as stated by census returns in 1841 and 1851.  Thomas and Emma would have married some time around 1814 or earlier having their first known child baptised in 1814 at St. Mary's in Caerhun, (I have the baptism record).  This was their daughter Mary.  They are noted as living in Ro-Wen with Thomas noted as being a shoemaker.  Their son John was similarly baptised in 1817 (I have his record too).

Son John was usually noted as being from Rowen or Caerhun on his subsequent census returns.

In 1841, Emma is found at Chapel Street, Tre Y Dre, Llanrwst, Denbighshire with Mary and John but no sign of Thomas, her husband.  By 1851 Emma is in Scotland Street, Llanrwst, Denbighshire with her daughter Mary and presumably Mary's illegitimate daughter, Mary PRITCHARD.  Emma is noted as a widow.  She died at the same address in 1860 at the stated age of 88, noted as widow of Thomas WILLIAMS, shoemaker, with son John in attendance.  She had at one time been a spinning woman.

Mary their daughter,never married as far as I can tell, dying about 1887 I believe in Llanrwst.  Mary's daughter Mary Pritchard may have married John LLOYD about 1875 in Llanrwst

John, Emma and Thomas' son married before 1865, to whom I know not and then married Martha ELLIOTT of Daventry in 1865.  He was a gardener and became the publican of the Telegraph Inn on the Orme as mentioned in other forum messages.  I still am not sure of John's whereabouts in 1851 or the identity of his first wife.

ANY snippets of information gleaned would be MOST welcome as this has been a huge brick wall for me.  I have found virtually nothing about Thomas and only what I have mentioned on Emma.  Hugo has very kindly checked Caerhun marriages for Thomas and Emma previously but was unable to find anything that fitted.  Since then, though I have more of an idea of age of Emma at least.  Keeping my fingers crossed 

[Meleri]

I have found an Emma Evans in the Caernarvonshire Baptism Transcriptions for Caerhun it reads:- Emma the daughter of Edward Evans shoemaker by his wife Mary was baptised 29th March 1775.

I'm not sure if this is your Thomas & Emma  but there is a marriage in Llanddoget on the 27th October 1812 between Thomas Williams and Emma Evans, it states the Bride's parish is Llanddoget and the grooms Llanrwst.

I really hope they are the right ones, after your long search for them. I have hit a brick wall on my tree and have been trying to solve it for 5 years, so I know how frustrating it can be.

[jom]

Thank you very much for that. What is the proximity of Caerhun and Llanddoget. Would it be reasonable for Emma from Llanddoget to note herself being from Caerhun on the census returns.  Was there an occupation noted for Thomas on the marriage entry. Will try to follow up tomorrow.  Getting excited D)

[Meleri]

LLanddoget is about one and a half miles from Llanrwst and is on the opposite side of the river Conwy to Caerhun.

Emma appears to have been born and baptised in Caerhun as mentioned on the Census.

When she married in 1812 she must have been living in Llanddoget possibly in service, bearing in mind she would have been around 37 years old or the family could have moved there.

Thomas's occupation wasn't mentioned on the marriage banns but it did mention the witnesses as Robert and Margaret Jones, but I can't see how that would help your search.

Sorry I can't help you further but perhaps it will give you something to work on.

[Hugo]

In the old Census records they often listed the parish as the place where they were born.   Caerhun parish included the villages of Rowen ,  Tal Y Cafn, Tyn Y Groes and I think Llanbedr Y Cennin

[jom]

Thank you Meleri and Hugo. I am itching to do some searches to see the feasibility of the fit. Obviously not knowing the area makes it a little difficult trying to find folk if they have strayed from their apparent home.

By the way I too have a worldwide ancestry subscription these days, so am happy to search for bits as and when for anyone. Least I can do to return all the favours given to me.

 

[Hugo]

Jom, this area is called the Conwy Valley and all the places you have mentioned are not too far away from each other.   In those days before the railway came people didn't travel too far so it's likely that there may be info in the Conwy Archives as it deals with the areas stated.
Thomas Williams is probably buried in the Conwy Valley area and if he had a headstone on his grave then it will be recorded on one of the many Burial Indexes they have there, only problem is which index!   
I remember looking at a booklet in the Archives some time ago and it was all about the old Rowen but whether Thomas is mentioned there or not I don't know but when I'm next there I'll have a quick peek.

[jom]

Thank you for the offer Hugo,

I suspect he died before 1841 although the census return for Emma does not state she was a widow at that time, merely that the 1841 census carried less information.

1851 Emma was noted as a widow.

I have a copy of a death certificate for a Thomas WILLIAMS, shoemaker who died in 3 April 1857, aged 58 at Old Road, Llandudno, informant being John HUGHES of Bryncryno?, Llandudno.  I doubt this is the right man however.

i also have a copy of a Thomas WILLIAMS who died 15 Nov 1841 at Felin Ucha, Caerhun, a labourer aged 72.  Not convinced this is right either!  The informant was Grace ROBERTS of Roe

[jom]

Been doing a quick bit of searching and came across a baptism for a Thomas WILLIAMS of Llanrwst bearing in mind the marriage of Thomas to Emma stated he was of the parish of Llanrwst.

The baptism record I have found states he was baptised 16 Apr 1769 at Llanrwst  son of John WILLIAMS by Elizabeth his wife.  Whilst totally circumstantial I accept, the fact that this Thomas' father was John and mine's son was John.  This particular family of MINE tended to name children traditionally.  At least Thomas son John, did.  Much more investigation required me thinks but may be getting a little closer to bashing that  wall after all

Ever hopeful ...

[Hugo]

I had a look at the Burial indexes for Llanrwst  (4)   Rowen and  Caerhun but couldn't find anything for Thomas or Emma Williams.     The Burial Index for Llanddoged wasn't there and neither was that booklet that I saw previously on Rowen.
Sorry about that Jom but I'll keep looking when I'm next there.

[jom]

Thanks for that Hugo.  I do have Emma's death cert, 20 jun 1860, if memory serves. She died at Scotland St Llanrwst with son John in attendance. I also have her burial record,  sorry for not mentioning previously.  She is registered in the Llanrwst burial register 5 days after her death,  aged 88 matching her death cert. Once I have proper access to my PC again, I can upload both. Hence the actual date of death is from memory.
I wonder if Thomas died early on in the marriage in view of only having found 2 children for him and Emma so far ie Mary and John. John was born about 1817 in Rowen following Mary in 1814

[jom]

These are the records for Emma

[Hugo]

Thanks for posting them Jom, it was very interesting looking at them.   As those burial records were from Llanrwst  it would seem that Emma was buried there but I couldn't find the grave in the Burial Index at Conwy Archives.   I did find 4 separate graveyards for Llanrwst but checked each one and couldn't see anything.
I'll double check on it again though.
I did notice from your postings that Emma must have been in her 40's when she had those children which seems quite old for her first children

[Meleri]

If they had a headstone you may find it on the web site www.clwyd-mi.co.uk    Clwyd Monumental Inscriptions have digital photographs of headstones found in the old County of Clwyd which covers the burials from St Grwst, Scotland Street Tabernacl, Penual Baptists, Chapel Seion and St Mary all in Llanrwst. It may be worth having a trawl through.  ££$

[Hugo]

Thanks very much for posting that link Meleri, it looks a very good site indeed and I'm sure that everyone will find it useful, especially our overseas  forum friends