Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: jom on February 05, 2015, 10:20:53 pm
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I have been looking for this couple off and on for a while now and since a previous comment quite some time ago in "Great Orme Cemetery", I think, I have a little more information, which may help in my search.
Thomas WILLIAMS was born probably Caernarvonshire, may be Caerhun/Rowen. He was a shoemaker.
His wife Emma was born about 1772/75 in Caerhun as stated by census returns in 1841 and 1851. Thomas and Emma would have married some time around 1814 or earlier having their first known child baptised in 1814 at St. Mary's in Caerhun, (I have the baptism record). This was their daughter Mary. They are noted as living in Ro-Wen with Thomas noted as being a shoemaker. Their son John was similarly baptised in 1817 (I have his record too).
Son John was usually noted as being from Rowen or Caerhun on his subsequent census returns.
In 1841, Emma is found at Chapel Street, Tre Y Dre, Llanrwst, Denbighshire with Mary and John but no sign of Thomas, her husband. By 1851 Emma is in Scotland Street, Llanrwst, Denbighshire with her daughter Mary and presumably Mary's illegitimate daughter, Mary PRITCHARD. Emma is noted as a widow. She died at the same address in 1860 at the stated age of 88, noted as widow of Thomas WILLIAMS, shoemaker, with son John in attendance. She had at one time been a spinning woman.
Mary their daughter,never married as far as I can tell, dying about 1887 I believe in Llanrwst. Mary's daughter Mary Pritchard may have married John LLOYD about 1875 in Llanrwst
John, Emma and Thomas' son married before 1865, to whom I know not and then married Martha ELLIOTT of Daventry in 1865. He was a gardener and became the publican of the Telegraph Inn on the Orme as mentioned in other forum messages. I still am not sure of John's whereabouts in 1851 or the identity of his first wife.
ANY snippets of information gleaned would be MOST welcome as this has been a huge brick wall for me. I have found virtually nothing about Thomas and only what I have mentioned on Emma. Hugo has very kindly checked Caerhun marriages for Thomas and Emma previously but was unable to find anything that fitted. Since then, though I have more of an idea of age of Emma at least. Keeping my fingers crossed
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I have found an Emma Evans in the Caernarvonshire Baptism Transcriptions for Caerhun it reads:- Emma the daughter of Edward Evans shoemaker by his wife Mary was baptised 29th March 1775.
I'm not sure if this is your Thomas & Emma but there is a marriage in Llanddoget on the 27th October 1812 between Thomas Williams and Emma Evans, it states the Bride's parish is Llanddoget and the grooms Llanrwst.
I really hope they are the right ones, after your long search for them. I have hit a brick wall on my tree and have been trying to solve it for 5 years, so I know how frustrating it can be.
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Thank you very much for that. What is the proximity of Caerhun and Llanddoget. Would it be reasonable for Emma from Llanddoget to note herself being from Caerhun on the census returns. Was there an occupation noted for Thomas on the marriage entry. Will try to follow up tomorrow. Getting excited D)
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LLanddoget is about one and a half miles from Llanrwst and is on the opposite side of the river Conwy to Caerhun.
Emma appears to have been born and baptised in Caerhun as mentioned on the Census.
When she married in 1812 she must have been living in Llanddoget possibly in service, bearing in mind she would have been around 37 years old or the family could have moved there.
Thomas's occupation wasn't mentioned on the marriage banns but it did mention the witnesses as Robert and Margaret Jones, but I can't see how that would help your search.
Sorry I can't help you further but perhaps it will give you something to work on.
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In the old Census records they often listed the parish as the place where they were born. Caerhun parish included the villages of Rowen , Tal Y Cafn, Tyn Y Groes and I think Llanbedr Y Cennin
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Thank you Meleri and Hugo. I am itching to do some searches to see the feasibility of the fit. Obviously not knowing the area makes it a little difficult trying to find folk if they have strayed from their apparent home.
By the way I too have a worldwide ancestry subscription these days, so am happy to search for bits as and when for anyone. Least I can do to return all the favours given to me.
$thanx$
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Jom, this area is called the Conwy Valley and all the places you have mentioned are not too far away from each other. In those days before the railway came people didn't travel too far so it's likely that there may be info in the Conwy Archives as it deals with the areas stated.
Thomas Williams is probably buried in the Conwy Valley area and if he had a headstone on his grave then it will be recorded on one of the many Burial Indexes they have there, only problem is which index!
I remember looking at a booklet in the Archives some time ago and it was all about the old Rowen but whether Thomas is mentioned there or not I don't know but when I'm next there I'll have a quick peek.
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Thank you for the offer Hugo,
I suspect he died before 1841 although the census return for Emma does not state she was a widow at that time, merely that the 1841 census carried less information.
1851 Emma was noted as a widow.
I have a copy of a death certificate for a Thomas WILLIAMS, shoemaker who died in 3 April 1857, aged 58 at Old Road, Llandudno, informant being John HUGHES of Bryncryno?, Llandudno. I doubt this is the right man however.
i also have a copy of a Thomas WILLIAMS who died 15 Nov 1841 at Felin Ucha, Caerhun, a labourer aged 72. Not convinced this is right either! The informant was Grace ROBERTS of Roe
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Been doing a quick bit of searching and came across a baptism for a Thomas WILLIAMS of Llanrwst bearing in mind the marriage of Thomas to Emma stated he was of the parish of Llanrwst.
The baptism record I have found states he was baptised 16 Apr 1769 at Llanrwst son of John WILLIAMS by Elizabeth his wife. Whilst totally circumstantial I accept, the fact that this Thomas' father was John and mine's son was John. This particular family of MINE tended to name children traditionally. At least Thomas son John, did. Much more investigation required me thinks but may be getting a little closer to bashing that wall after all
Ever hopeful ... ;)
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I had a look at the Burial indexes for Llanrwst (4) Rowen and Caerhun but couldn't find anything for Thomas or Emma Williams. The Burial Index for Llanddoged wasn't there and neither was that booklet that I saw previously on Rowen.
Sorry about that Jom but I'll keep looking when I'm next there.
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Thanks for that Hugo. I do have Emma's death cert, 20 jun 1860, if memory serves. She died at Scotland St Llanrwst with son John in attendance. I also have her burial record, sorry for not mentioning previously. She is registered in the Llanrwst burial register 5 days after her death, aged 88 matching her death cert. Once I have proper access to my PC again, I can upload both. Hence the actual date of death is from memory.
I wonder if Thomas died early on in the marriage in view of only having found 2 children for him and Emma so far ie Mary and John. John was born about 1817 in Rowen following Mary in 1814
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These are the records for Emma
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Thanks for posting them Jom, it was very interesting looking at them. As those burial records were from Llanrwst it would seem that Emma was buried there but I couldn't find the grave in the Burial Index at Conwy Archives. I did find 4 separate graveyards for Llanrwst but checked each one and couldn't see anything.
I'll double check on it again though.
I did notice from your postings that Emma must have been in her 40's when she had those children which seems quite old for her first children
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If they had a headstone you may find it on the web site www.clwyd-mi.co.uk (http://www.clwyd-mi.co.uk) Clwyd Monumental Inscriptions have digital photographs of headstones found in the old County of Clwyd which covers the burials from St Grwst, Scotland Street Tabernacl, Penual Baptists, Chapel Seion and St Mary all in Llanrwst. It may be worth having a trawl through. ££$
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Thanks very much for posting that link Meleri, it looks a very good site indeed and I'm sure that everyone will find it useful, especially our overseas forum friends $good$
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Thank you Hugo and Meleri,
You have voiced the concerns I have had for some time and certainly relevant if the marriage you dug up Meleri is correct. The problem is finding more information on either Thomas Williams and Emma EVANS marriage or finding my Thomas. I do feel nearer an answer one way or another and am going to look at the site you have suggested too. Cheers, both
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Following on from the baptism you found for Thomas on 16th April 1769 Llanrwst, I have found a possible Burial record for him on 11th June 1836 in Llanrwst. His age is given as 68 making the birth date about 1768. The abode is Brynsyllty, which sounds to me like a house name and then I found it in the Dyffryn Aur Hamlet of Tafarn Y Fedw which is about 1 mile north east of Llanrwst.
It's the nearest match I can find from the information we have cobbled together, perhaps Hugo can find out more when he is next in the Archive.
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Thanks Meleri. Bit of a blow in some ways as it's before the 1837 registration so won't get a certificate to see occupation etc. It does fit with why Emma was on her own in 1841. Shame it doesn't state married or widowed on her census return.
So, at the moment and assuming he is the right one, which I'm not actually, and putting thoughts down, the story would go something like this ...
Thomas Williams, bn abt 1769 Llanrwst a shoemaker, (though we don't know that the Thomas born 1769 was a shoemaker) (may be son of John and Elizabeth of Llanrwst) marries Emma EVANS (Bn abt 1775 to Edward and Mary Evans, a shoemaker of Rowen, Caerhun), 1812 in Llanddoget, once a spinning woman. But why marry Llanddoget? Emma was noted as being of the parish at the time of marriage so may have gone there for work. Both Thomas and Emma were noted as single, but this would make them 43 and 37 years old respectively, as you say Hugo, unusual. May account for only 2 children though.
They have 2 known children Mary Bp 1814 Caerhun, (Noted as being from Rowen when baptised) who did not marry but had an illegitimate daughter Mary PRITCHARD (who married shoemaker John LLOYD in 1875, at Llanrwst) ...
and John Bp 1817 Caerhun, (noted as being from Rowen in census and baptism records) a gardener and later publican of the Old Telegraph, who married before 1865 to someone unknown. Having been widowed and no sign of surviving offspring, he married Martha ELLIOTT in Daventry in 1865 and took her to Llandudno. (Northampton area being well known for shoes of course but this may be irrelevant).
An awful lot of assumptions and little corroboration for the early part. Somehow don't think we will attain a greater degree of certainty and will always be a vague possibility, but fun figuring it out!
I am awaiting access to the website you mentioned to look for Thomas in the cemeteries
Thanks again ... enjoying the hunt
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I'll have a look again in the Archives when I'm next there, but not sure when that will be.
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The link certainly leads to a wonderful site Meleri. Sadly not found anything in Llanrwst or Llanddoget. Will keep looking and googling. Certainly a site for future searches though. Thanks to you and Hugo
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I had a look in the Archives yesterday and rechecked the Burial Indexes for Llanrwst. The ones I checked were the St Grwst, St Mary's. Tabernacle and Hen Gapel Bethel but according to the web site there were 5 Cemeteries there so one is missing.
Anyway there was no trace of Emma or Thomas' burial in any of them. Also missing was the Burial Index for Llanddoged and the Archivist didn't seem to know where the record was although some one researching records there knew that there was one as she had actually read it.
So it's still a mystery.
I did see the wedding banns in the Llanddoget Register for Thomas and Emma and had a photo copy done but I must have had a senior moment and left it there but I did phone and they are keeping the copy for me.
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Thank you Hugo. Very kind. Really appreciate the help you have kindly given. The only headstone photos I've not searched from the earlier link are those for the possible missing cemetery "Sceion" if memory serves. Will be doing that soon. Some of course are illegible.
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I was in the Archives and the Llanddoged Burial Index is still missing so I looked through the Church Parish Register but couldn't find anything between 1836 and 1860 for Emma and Thomas Williams. There was a Thomas Williams from Tafarn Y Fedw who died in 1846 but he was only 16 at the time.
I came across 4 magazines about the main streets in Llanrwst, Scotland Street, Denbigh Street, Station Road and Watling Street.
I had a look at the one for Scotland Street and in it they listed the people living in the street in 1851 and also their occupation. The shoemakers there were:-
Owen Williams at No 2
David Williams at No 7
William Williams at No 7
but no mention of Emma or Thomas Williams
I collected the copy of the Wedding Banns and attach it below
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Thank you Hugo. Kind and helpful as always. Looks as though this brick wall may remain that way for some time to come but always hopeful. At least I have possibilities and clues. More than I did thanks again to this great forum
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Jom, I'm in Llandudno on Tuesday and will call in at the Archives and concentrate on finding Emma's grave. As she remained a widow it's possible that she is buried with Thomas. That's what I'm hoping for anyway.
It's a mystery as there was a Cemetery in Scotland Street Llanrwst very close to her house but she did have connections with other villages in the Conway Valley too.
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Thanks very much. That would be lovely and will keep my fingers crossed ££$
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I found a link last week called British History Online which is very handy for looking at old addresses and you might find it interesting.
I put in Henryd and was looking for something in the area when I came across Derwen Deg Copper mine (disused) and it struck a bell on another topic.
Your ancestor Moses Jones lived there and died in Gyffin in 1842 ( I think) I was never able to find his grave but often wondered where Derwen Deg was and it was there right at the very top of the map.
Henryd and Gyffin are villages next to each other in the Conwy Valley.
Anyway this afternoon I'll go to the Archives and see what I can find out about Emma and will post it here.
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I did call at the Archives today but sadly didn't find out anything about Emma from the computer system they had there and her burial isn't in the 4 Cemetery records for Llanrwst that they have there.
They do have records for Burials, births, baptisms etc and some go back to the 1600's. If you tell me what you would like me to search for then I'll have a look next time I go to the Archives.
I've just noticed that the witness to Emma's death lived in Llandudno but haven't checked St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme for her burial. Is there any chance that she could be buried there?
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hi Hugo,
Thanks so much. Will have a think and put down some logical thinking. Emma's informant was her son John who was buried at St. Tudno cemetery plot A074. In the same plot is his wife Martha (nee Elliott) and daughter Mary Alice. Have attached transcription of the gravestone, churchyard map and photo which I think you may have taken for me :)
As for the maps, wow such a help for me over here. Great site thanks. Will have a good think to figure out where best to look. Do shift work so it may be a day or two but thank you
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I have recently found out the person who set up The Clwyd Monumental Inscription site I told you about, has also got some transcriptions of burials in Llanrwst before 1920. Perhaps if you e-mail him with names,dates etc. he could help. ££$
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thanks for the tip. Will try that $good$
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I know that it's not in the right topic but I've been on a walk today and visited the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden where some of your relatives are buried.
There has been some work undertaken to tidy up the old part of the Cemetery but it still needs a lot of TLC before people can really visit this spot. The grave of Hugh Jones is the one in the first picture and doesn't look in too bad a condition but when I first saw it some time ago it was impossible to identify until I took the Ivy off it.
Even the new part of the Cemetery has taken a battering when a large branch snapped on one of the Fir trees nearby.
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Gosh that's quite some achievement from the original photos you posted Hugo. VERY interesting. Thank you. Such a shame that so many cemeteries are no longer maintained. Always grateful to folk like yourself unearthing the past. It's certainly looking a lot better already. Thank you for thinking of me. Will add to my collection. Coming to the Uk in Autumn but think time will be too tight too do a research trip but it is in my mind I must say ;)
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Gosh that's quite some achievement from the original photos you posted Hugo. VERY interesting. Thank you. Such a shame that so many cemeteries are no longer maintained. Always grateful to folk like yourself unearthing the past. It's certainly looking a lot better already. Thank you for thinking of me. Will add to my collection. Coming to the Uk in Autumn but think time will be too tight too do a research trip but it is in my mind I must say ;)
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Hope that you enjoy your trip here whatever you decide to do, but will you please bring your nice weather with you when you come here.!
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It's still a mystery of where Emma and Thomas are buried. It is hoped that they were buried together, but where?
I can see from the posting on 17th Feb 2015 that Emma's burial is recorded as being in the Parish of Llanrwst but it does not mean that the burial was is in Llanrwst town itself. The Parish covers Maenan in Caernarfonshire but will also cover Eglwysbach further north in Denbighshire and the surrounding areas around the town of Llanrwst including Llanddoged.
There is a Cae Melwr Cemetery in Nebo Road Llanrwst that I haven't seen the records of and also two Cemeteries in Llanddoged that I haven't been able to see either.
It's just a hunch but Emma was living in Llanddoged and got married there so she had a strong connection with the village and it's possible that is where they are both buried.
St Doged is the Church there but I've just noticed that there is Tan Y Bryn Chapel there too. Unfortunately the records are missing in the Archives for the Church and usually Chapel records are harder to find.
I'll have another look in the Archives when I visit there next. I had a look at the link provided by Meleri but it didn't help unfortunately.
The Burial Indexes in the Archives provide the inscription on the headstones, the people listed alphabetically and their addresses also listed alphabetically. It's very easy to find that way IF of course they have the books available
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Cheers Hugo,
I am unable to see any connection to Llanddoget other than Emma (if we have the right marriage) was of that parish when married. If we then stretch it further looking for an Emma EVANS of the right age we come up with an Emma EVANS of Ro, which is where my Thomas and Emma's children Mary and John were born. Emma and Thomas as we have previously mentioned would have been quite old to be marrying for the first time. As it is she seems to have been in her early 40s when they were born. So it's all a little unusual ANYWAY.
I too had looked at the site from meleri's link and not found either Thomas or Emma but as you say there is another cemetery in the Llanrwst area with no records available.
When Emma died in 1860, daughter Mary was also in Llanrwst and son John was in Llandudno. I still have no other siblings. My gut feeling remains with Llanrwst at the moment but I too, am looking further afield. The burial record states Llanrwst parish so presumably this includes Llanddoget?
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Yes. Llanddoged is in the Parish of Llanrwst. Emma died in Scotland Street and there is a Cemetery there but it seems that she isn't in that one. The other Cemetery I found was in Nebo Road which isn't that far away either but her resting place remains a mystery, for now anyway.
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I was at the Archives yesterday and had a look at all the Burial Indexes in the Conwy Valley that they have at the Archives but couldn't see anything for Emma Williams.
I found the Burial Registry for Emma that has been shown on here but there was no info on it that we are not already aware of.
The Archivist said that the person who conducted the Burial, had conducted many others and thought that it may be St Grwst Church where the burial took place but there was no evidence to prove that. that was the case or the location of the grave in the Cemetery
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Thank you for your continued dogedness Hugo. Seems to be taking an interesting turn. Great reminder that things are not as straight forward as they may seem always :o
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I've found nothing new about the family but I am still puzzled about the missing Llanddoged Burial Index at the Archives as it still hasn't turned up.
When I questioned the lack of info about Thomas and Emma they did say that as the family lived in Denbighshire, the Archive at Ruthin may hold some info for them. I'm not sure of the name of the office there, it may be the Clwyd Archives.
I was in Llanddoged today so I took some photos of the Church just in case you haven't seen it. We know that they were married there but there is no evidence of which Church or Chapel they are buried at.
There were a number of graves around 1860 and prior and although I did have a look, could find no headstone for them.
The Church is quite interesting inside and I've not seen one like it before. It has rows of pews on one edge but the majority of them are in small blocks in the middle of the Church and each one has a number on it.
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Thank you for the pictures Hugo,
As you may have guessed, I haven't been doing much in the way of genealogy at the moment, and am about to fly over to Blighty tonight. Really grateful for keeping me and my research in mind. Looks to be a lovely wee church. I think I have come across a church set out similarly in my time but can't recall where. May have been in my childhood in the wilds of Lincolnshire, but it is certainly unusual.
Still don't know as yet if I will manage a trip to Llandudno but if time allows will certainly make the effort.
many thanks again. I will download to add to my collection
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I hope that you have a safe flight and enjoy your stay in the UK, it would be nice if you could bring some of your weather over here.
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I have been looking for this couple off and on for a while now and since a previous comment quite some time ago in "Great Orme Cemetery", I think, I have a little more information, which may help in my search.
Thomas WILLIAMS was born probably Caernarvonshire, may be Caerhun/Rowen. He was a shoemaker.
His wife Emma was born about 1772/75 in Caerhun as stated by census returns in 1841 and 1851. Thomas and Emma would have married some time around 1814 or earlier having their first known child baptised in 1814 at St. Mary's in Caerhun, (I have the baptism record). This was their daughter Mary. They are noted as living in Ro-Wen with Thomas noted as being a shoemaker. Their son John was similarly baptised in 1817 (I have his record too).
Son John was usually noted as being from Rowen or Caerhun on his subsequent census returns.
In 1841, Emma is found at Chapel Street, Tre Y Dre, Llanrwst, Denbighshire with Mary and John but no sign of Thomas, her husband. By 1851 Emma is in Scotland Street, Llanrwst, Denbighshire with her daughter Mary and presumably Mary's illegitimate daughter, Mary PRITCHARD. Emma is noted as a widow. She died at the same address in 1860 at the stated age of 88, noted as widow of Thomas WILLIAMS, shoemaker, with son John in attendance. She had at one time been a spinning woman.
Mary their daughter,never married as far as I can tell, dying about 1887 I believe in Llanrwst. Mary's daughter Mary Pritchard may have married John LLOYD about 1875 in Llanrwst
John, Emma and Thomas' son married before 1865, to whom I know not and then married Martha ELLIOTT of Daventry in 1865. He was a gardener and became the publican of the Telegraph Inn on the Orme as mentioned in other forum messages. I still am not sure of John's whereabouts in 1851 or the identity of his first wife.
ANY snippets of information gleaned would be MOST welcome as this has been a huge brick wall for me. I have found virtually nothing about Thomas and only what I have mentioned on Emma. Hugo has very kindly checked Caerhun marriages for Thomas and Emma previously but was unable to find anything that fitted. Since then, though I have more of an idea of age of Emma at least. Keeping my fingers crossed
hi folk
it's been a while since I looked at this forum. Hope you all are keeping well.
I'm still trying to track down Thomas WILLIAMS as above (husband of Emma EVANS) and father to Mary Bp 1812 Caerhun and John Bp 1817 Caerhun.
I am no nearer tracking Thomas' death records. As above the 1841 census for Emma in Llanrwst makes no comment re her status (married or widowed) but in 1851 Llanrwst she IS noted a widowed.
I do have a death certificate for a Thomas of Old Road Llandudno, Shoemaker who died 1857 aged 58 but I can't find this particular chap on any census or in any directory. My John WILLIAMS was living in Llanrwst in 1851 with his mother and sister and in 1860 was in Cwlach street, Llandudno when his mother died. When Thomas WILLIAMS was married he is noted to be of Llanrwst
I'm running out of lateral thinking power and wondered if there were any directories for before 1841 listing him
Any ideas/ help would be much appreciated. I haven't reposted any of the records I have but can if needed
Marriage to Emma EVANS (Llanrhychwyn)
Baptism of daughter Mary (Caerhun)
Baptism of son John (Caerhun)
1841 Census Emma and Family (Llanrwst)
1851 Cemsus Emma and Family (Emma noted as a widow) (Llanrwst)
Marriage of son John noting father as a shoemaker x 2 (Married twice) (1st marriage Llanrhychwyn, second marriage Daventry , northants) (John went on to live at the Old Telegraph Station with his second wife Martha)
Death of Emma noting thomas as a shoemaker (llanrwst)
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Hiya. I've just re read the whole thread here and realise the research is pretty much exhausted. I've tried to delete this last posting but can't so please ignore and forgive
Hope all's well with everyone
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Hello Jom,
I haven't read the full thread of this post but recall having looked at this in the past.
I wouldn't give up on this as there is so much more information going online all the time. I have searched Ancestry to see if I can find anyone with this family tree but this was unsuccessful. I did find John's marriage in Daventry and note that he didn't show his father as deceased at that time. This doesn't always happen but John is shown as a widower. He would have been about 48 at the time of this marriage in 1865. I would be surprised if he didn't have children from his first marriage which would be expected to be c1837/8. I saw he had a number of children with Martha Elliot. Have you tried tracing these down to find a living relative?
Have you found John, or Mary, on census returns from 1861 onwards? There is a John Williams in Llandudno in the 1861 census. He is shown as age 39, born Caerhun and a gardener but this age doesn't quite agree his birth year. He is in the household of John Jones, age 24 and a bricklayer. This could be him as it would mean he was able to remarry in 1865.
I will have a further look at this when time permits. Let me know if you prefer to give up!
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I have just found 15 Family Trees on Ancestry for John Williams. Some of them don't give information but you can contact the tree owner for this. One has Thomas Williams born 1799 but no source for this date. I would try these as they contain a substantial amount of information on this family. They all show Thomas Williams died 3 April 1857 in Old Road, Llandudno.
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Thanks helig
I know who these relatives are. Whilst they have Thomas bn 1799 and died 1857, I'm pretty sure Thomas was born earlier because he married 1812. Through this outlet and others, I'm pretty happy that I'm on the right track with his wife being Emma Evans and kids Mary bn 1814 and John bn 1817.
Of course the age on the death cert can easily be wrong. It wasn't a family member who was the informant of his death, though Thomas was noted a shoemaker. If this is my Thomas' death cert, I'm unable to find him on any census records
I have all the records for son John and families. His first marriage was to Catherine Hughes in 1856 but she died in childbirth that same year.
He married my g g gmother in 1865 and then went to live at the old Telegraph
Living relatives seem as stuck as me
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I was wondering if there are any directories for Llandudno 1856 or 1857 which might help me place the Thomas Williams who did 1857. I haven't been able to find him in the census returns
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I was wondering if there are any directories for Llandudno 1856 or 1857 which might help me place the Thomas Williams who died 1857. I haven't been able to find him in the census returns. For llandudno,caerhun, llanrwst
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I was wondering if there are any directories for Llandudno 1856 or 1857 which might help me place the Thomas Williams who died 1857. I haven't been able to find him in the census returns. For llandudno,caerhun, llanrwst
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I think it was possible for people to marry at much younger ages back then. I have read that boys could marry at age 13/14 and girls at age 12.
The age shown on the death certificate may be wrong but it is the only evidence we have.
Can you post his marriage certificate to Emma please?
What might explain some of the mysteries is an entry in the Criminal Registers for the County Assizes in Denbighshire. It is dated being for the year 1838 and shows Thomas Williams age 42 being convicted of horse stealing on 24th March and sentenced to transportation for 15 years. It is impossible to know if that is the right person as it is such a common name. It could explain why he cannot be found on census returns and the death you have would be in some doubt.
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Hi Helig
Thanks so much for your thoughts. I have reached out to my "cousin" again to obtain her thoughts.
I have attached the marriage record hopefully! Obviously I appreciate the age noted on the death certificate for the Thomas who died in 1857 may well be wrong especially as it doesn't seem to be a family member as the informant.
There is another theory which is that there is a Thomas WILLIAMS who got 3 months at Denbigh Assizes for bigamy (no occupation) in 1843 aged 65 who had an alias of JONES but not satisfactorily tracked him down.
I do wonder if Thomas' parents might be John and Elizabeth of Llanrwst bp 1769 but no further evidence to suggest they are the correct people. Too many variables
I presume ther are no Llandudno street directories for 1856 and earlier to trace the shoemaker of Old road back?
Look forward to your thoughts and no I'll never give up :-\
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Hello Jom,
Thank you for posting the marriage banns for Thomas and Emma. I had obtained these on Ancestry but wanted to check they were the correct ones. I am dubious about the death certificate being for the right Thomas Williams. There is no possibility of verifying this with other information for Thomas. In the circumstances I think it should be regarded as a possible death for him but not certain. Assuming Emma was born c1772, I should have thought Thomas would have been born within 5 years either way of that. A 27 year age difference is unlikely. Having said that I knew a couple who had a 20 year age difference, he was 20 years younger than his wife and they were happily married for over 40 years.
I have found Mary Williams with her daughter, Mary Lloyd (Pritchard) in the 1881 census. Mary Williams is aged 67 and shown as Mother in law. They are living in Plough St, Llanwrst. I agree that it appears Mary Pritchard married John Lloyd in 1875. I wonder why Mary was named Pritchard if she was illegitimate? It would be usual for an illegitimate child to be given the mother's surname. I see Mary Lloyd died in 1918 and is buried in St Mary's, Llanwrst. The 1911 census shows John and Mary Lloyd had 7 children of whom 5 were still living.
I cannot help you with the directories as I don't live near Llandudno. The last time I was there they kept a number of these in the library there. The record offices would be able to help you with this query. There is the Caernarfonshire RO:
https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/Residents/Libraries-and-archives/Archives-and-family-history/Archives-and-family-history.aspx
Plus the Denbighshire RO:
https://www.newa.wales/
I seem to be out of date with their names.
Ancestry seems to be playing up today so I will pursue this again.
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I don't know if this is of any interest to you:
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llanrhychwyn
It shows just how spread out this was and that it was very rural. Bear in mind that the non conformist chapels were able to baptise people but were not licensed for marriages. I wonder if there were non conformist links to this family which would make it difficult as few of their registers survive.
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Hi Helig
Many thanks for those tips. Particularly like the North East Wales Archives site. One to keep in mind. Not really had any other thoughts as yet but always thinking. Thanks for the tips
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I did have another think on this over the weekend. I am doubtful whether you will solve this by online research only. It would be useful to search the parish registers for a baptism for Thomas Williams the problem is which registers would you need to search (or have searched). I reckon Llanwrst would be a good start, followed by Conwy and Rowen, possibly Caerhun. You would be the best person to decide which places to look at as you have by far the best knowledge of the family.
The information you have on Emma is corroborated by census returns, death certificate etc. Since the 1851 census shows her to be a widow, I think I would accept that which means you need to look for a burial, or death, for Thomas prior to that. He is missing from the 1841 census too, that didn't require people to state their status, so it is likely he had died before that. He would have been alive when the children were baptised so the period in question is 1817-1841 (possibly 1851). I reckon Llanwrst would be a good place to look. I have attempted a search on Ancestry and Find my Past but nothing shows up for him. It it possible the parish registers of burials haven't been transcribed as yet for Llanwrst, or other possible places.
I suspect Thomas's age would be quite near to Mary's and c1770-1775. I note Mary's age wanders a bit, 76 in the 1851 census and 88 in 1860. Ancestry shows her baptism as being in Caerhun on 29 March 1775, "Daughter of Edward Evans of the shoemaker by Mary his wife".
I think the best bet would be to try and find his death, or burial, and work back from that.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I have tried that on numerous occasions over the years as per this thread ancestry etc. Very kindly people have searched the l9cal archives too.
Just trying anything which might provide a clue.
Really appreciate your ideas and support
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There is nothing coming up on either Ancestry, or Find my Past so I looked at Freereg for some possible matches for Thomas Williams. There were two burials in St Grwst, Llanwrst which might fit. The first in 25/02/1829, Thomas Williams buried age 52. That gives a year of birth as 1777. The second was on 11/06/1836, age 68. That is born c1768. The search was for the years 1817 to 1841. Of the 9 results these were the only two possible matches.
I did another search from 1841-1851 and this produced 5 results. The only one that looked possible was a burial on 14/06/1849, age 71. The year of birth would be c1778.
There is a death certificate registered for the one in 1849 but the others are pre registration.
It is all a bit strange as they married for the first time so late in life. My initial impression that it must be second marriage for both but the Banns state they were bachelor and spinster. Could this be wrong?
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I'd forgotten about freereg though certain I've checked it out previously.
I have seen all three records in the past looking at previous search histories.
The 1849 record is for a Thomas WILLIAMS of Capel Curig. I don't know of any connection with this place, so feel it is less likely
The other two are certainly possibles and I do have both records in my unconfirmed folder, already. The first who was buried in 1829 was noted as being of Llanrwst whereas the second (Buried 1836) was noted as being of Brynsyllty. I presume this is an area of Llanrwst or a house name but have not been able to find it to see if it relates to Emma's later residences.
None of these entries state an occupation, sadly.
I obviously favour either the 1829 or the 1836 entries as USUALLY the simplist answer is more likely rather than getting in to "well if he's not with the family in 1841, where was he?" etc.
I shall revisit my searches for the two more likely Thomas' and see if any family result at either "addresses" in baptism records etc to try to disprove their mine!!
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These days I am the same and tend to use Ancestry and Find my Past.
It doesn't look as though the baptisms in Llanwrst in the 1760s and 1770s are on Freereg.
Brynsyllty appears to be a hamlet outside Llanwrst. Google the place name and a number of results come up for it.
Trying to find out more information on the two burials pre registration is going to be tricky. I doubt you will be able to determine the Thomas Williams who is your ancestor with any certainty. At best it will be a possible, or possibles, for him.