Unemployment and Benefits

[Hugo]

Jeremy Hunt a Tory Cabinet Minister said on TV last night that there should be a ceiling on benefits paid to big families and implied that if the families are going to apply for benefits that are more than the average wage then they would not support it.
It's time that we got away from this benefit culture and I hope they can do something about it.
I'm surprised too that no government has tapped into what is a valuable resource and asked or requested that anyone who is  physically and mentally capable of work do so in order to pay for their benefits.
Perhaps it would be too difficult to administrate or contravene their human rights.

[Fester]

I very much agree with taking urgent and positive steps to tackle the benefit culture, and the appaling waste of resource, but bear this in mind.
There will be no change in the human propensity for greed, laziness and need for material things.  Nor will the urge for drugs or alcohol magically disappear, therefore the following equation is true.

Reduced benefits = higher employment ..(people must get money from somewhere) ... but also HIGHER CRIME.

Because those who don't get given money....and refuse to earn it ... will find a way to get what they must have.

[Ian]

I'm surprised too that no government has tapped into what is a valuable resource and asked or requested that anyone who is  physically and mentally capable of work do so in order to pay for their benefits.
Perhaps it would be too difficult to administrate or contravene their human rights.

In theory, anyone who is both "physically and mentally capable of work" has to work, because they won't get benefits unless they fall into the category of young single mother. Once children are involved, you have an entirely different ball-game, so stopping benefits will be seized upon by the tabloids as action little short of that proposed by Hitler and his chums.

There are several issues here, and  none is easy to solve. Most relate to Human rights legislation - to which we adhere - and many relate to the DFM - the Daily Mail and its slime-caked compatriots.   

It's important to realise that the DFM's agenda is pro-Tory but it's also conscious that its reader-base is the very group often caught cheating on benefits. Ultimately, their aim is to make money, which they will always try to do through the routine demolition of careers, aspirations and achievements of those non-Tories in the public eye, yet even the DFM is having trouble with the latest child benefit proposals.

Finally the other problem with the suggestion that all able-bodied are required to work is practicality. If there's simply no work available, what d'you do?  Put them to work building roads, perhaps?  Administration after administration has tried to stem the welfare tide, yet none has succeeded.  But there's one other thing it's worth thinking about.  HMRC estimates indicate that Welfare and benefits are running at about £2bn per annum, while tax evasion is estimated at £8bn per annum.  Maybe we're concerned about the wrong groups of people...

[DaveR]

Why should anyone have a problem with the latest Child Benefit proposals? I've seen no-one put forward a cohesive argument as to why a Couple earning more than £44,000 should receive any benefits at all? As I said before, in a area where most people earn around £15,000 a year, it is indefensible and comes across as pure greed.

[Ian]

Absolutely.  But those earning over the threshold will be sure to 'need' the cash.

[Hugo]

Most people live up to their income and would probably argue their case for retaining the benefits but cuts have to be made and it is only fair that there is to be a threshold at which these benefits are paid.
What is not fair is that anyone solely on benefits should receive more money than the average working wage.   I was brought up to believe that if you want anything you have to work to get it.
It seems that there is a growing minority in this country that expect things to be handed to them on a plate and not have to work for it at all.
Another concern of mine is that of Tax Credits, perhaps a good idea in principle but I believe the majority of payments for Tax Credits are made to non UK citizens.   It is no wonder that so many potential illegal immigrants are waiting to come to the UK with our benefit system as it is.   

[Ian]

What is not fair is that anyone solely on benefits should receive more money than the average working wage.   I was brought up to believe that if you want anything you have to work to get it.

Yes - I agree, totally.  However, what do you do about the family with fifteen kids? The DFM and their ilk will soon start running stories about starving children.

[Ian]

Another concern of mine is that of Tax Credits, perhaps a good idea in principle but I believe the majority of payments for Tax Credits are made to non UK citizens.   It is no wonder that so many potential illegal immigrants  waiting to come to the UK with our benefit system as it is.

I've spent some time trying to verify your assertion that the majority of payments for Tax Credits are made to non UK citizens, Hugo, but to no avail. However, I think the Tax Credit system has been an unmitigated disaster from the outset, and really should be consigned to the waste bin of history.

On your second point - that of potential illegal immigrants  waiting to come to the UK with our benefit system as it is - then I concur, again, but the problem is - curiously - one of easy and quick identification. It was actually because of his desire to control illegal immigrant access to the social and welfare services that Tony Blair wanted to introduce identity cards.  They would have acted as a form of insurance, as well as a passport to claiming benefits, and health care.  Interestingly, the Tories - who had previously  supported the idea - decided it was politically expedient to oppose it.

[DaveR]

Interesting to see the results of the Sunday Times survey that said that 75 percent of people supported the Govt's plans to axe child benefit for the well off.

[Ian]

The Telegraph reported  53% in favour.  Always fun wondering what the figures would have been had it been a Labour government suggesting it....

[Hugo]

I can't see why anyone would object to having an identity card other than the cost of it, but I don't think that is the answer. The criminal masterminds and gang leaders are already capable of forging documents, including passports and they'll do the same with ID cards.
I think that the Government should get tougher on the illegal immigrants as the present system is ridiculous as anyone who has seen the TV programme UK Border Force can vouch.
When the frontline HMRC officers are searching for people working here illegally they have no powers to detain and deport those people unless they can obtain the illegal's passport.  They ask for the passport and will search for it but if they can't find it and the illegal states that they haven't got one then they have to release that person even knowing that they are here illegaly.  What they do is simply caution the suspect and put a condition on the caution that they report to a Police Station at specified intervals.
It's not rocket science but anyone knowing they face deportation will do a runner
Another thing I heard about, although I cannot verify the accuracy is that when an illegal immigrant voluntarily requests to be deported they can be deported with a resettlement payment of £3K.     I did read that this illegal immigrant after deportation, if he makes his way back into the UK  can also make the same claim again.  It's his right apparently!!!             :rage:

[Ian]

The criminal masterminds and gang leaders are already capable of forging documents, including passports and they'll do the same with ID cards.

That - and the upfront cost to the UK citizen - are the reasons given for binning the idea. But it's now possible to produce cards which are mighty difficult to forge - the UK credit card companies have been enjoying significant success in that area over the past couple of years - and I think the selling point is their ability to prioritise services for UK taxpayers. But the cost of getting the scheme started will almost certainly mean it's a non starter.

[Hugo]

I've got the latest form of debit card and that didn't stop the b******s from hacking into my bank account last week!      :rage:

[Ian]

I've got the latest form of debit card and that didn't stop the b******s from hacking into my bank account last week!

If they got into your account, then I assume they took money out? If so, the problem many find is proving that the account was indeed 'hacked', and that someone hadn't simply found your pin.

[Hugo]

It was done in Portugal 2 weeks ago and they had 3 more attempts the day after,. although they weren't successful on those attempts.   :rage:.