National politics

[Bosun]

People can change - wasn't Sillyband called Red Ed at University and promoting Marxism along with his Father?
Tony Blair used to be cool, he was in a band and liked Bruce Springsteen.
Even Churchill switched from the Tories to the Liberals
and It's 'claimed' Farage was in the national front when he was young....so not everyone changes, but you get my point 

Don't you think that they just change their public persona to gain a position of power or responsibility that allows them to pursue their real agenda and beliefs?

[Hugo]

People can change - wasn't Sillyband called Red Ed at University and promoting Marxism along with his Father?
Tony Blair used to be cool, he was in a band and liked Bruce Springsteen.
Even Churchill switched from the Tories to the Liberals
and It's 'claimed' Farage was in the national front when he was young....so not everyone changes, but you get my point 

Don't you think that they just change their public persona to gain a position of power or responsibility that allows them to pursue their real agenda and beliefs?

It seems to be the case but they are damaging the party that they claim to represent.     McDonnell was asked a question in the paper recently and it asked him if Corbyn was to win this contest, wouldn't it split the Labour Party?    His reply was simply "so be it"
Well that attitude says Amen to the Labour Party, clear and simple

[born2run]

People can change - wasn't Sillyband called Red Ed at University and promoting Marxism along with his Father?
Tony Blair used to be cool, he was in a band and liked Bruce Springsteen.
Even Churchill switched from the Tories to the Liberals
and It's 'claimed' Farage was in the national front when he was young....so not everyone changes, but you get my point 

Don't you think that they just change their public persona to gain a position of power or responsibility that allows them to pursue their real agenda and beliefs?

Yes, actually! But it can't be true in every case. I do believe people can change whether they want to is another matter altogether.

[Fester]

I watched Question Time last night, and I have never seen such vitriol around that table.
It got very heated just prior to Brexit referendum, but last night a lot of nastiness emerged.
I actually felt quite sorry for John McDonnel, without really knowing who he is.
He was getting lambasted with some quite serious personal attacks, and he was quite restrained and measured in his response.
I did think that, by the end of the programme, that not one single question had been addressed and that once again politicians in this country were shown in a very embarrassing light.

[Bosun]

Perhaps I'm being cynical in my old age, but I don't believe that professional politicians (as those you mentioned) have an epiphany, or do change their ideals, they maneuverer themselves into a better position for personal and professional advantage and advancement. (Except Neil Hamilton, he just grabbed the first offer from anyone that would have him.) Churchill was an excellent example of a expediency for advancement. Our own Mike Priestly (a good local councillor) didn't have a saintly conversion, he left the Lib Dem's sinking ship for Labour to try and get into Assembly.

As I have said before, Corbyn has no ambition to be PM, he knows that will never happen, he (and McDonnell) want Labour to be a Marxist/Leninist/Socialist Workers Protest Party and the British public may want change, but certainly not to that extent. Whilst the Corbyn agenda has attracted some people to join the Labour Party, he is putting off millions from voting Labour. 80% of his MP's do not support him, he does not have the support of any previous Labour leader, or any of the 'elder statesmen' of the party, all of whom want him to go, so how on earth does any (sane) person suggest he is in a position to form a credible Parliamentary Opposition Party even if he does win the leadership, at a time when a strong opposition is desperately needed?   

[Ian]

Tremendous irony, though, with the same thing being said about Trump.

[Bosun]

Of course the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic.

Except a House of Commons Select Committee say they are. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37656197

Even Shami Chakrabarti, in her enquiry said there is an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and that there was "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes".

But the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic.......

With daily revelations about the Home Secretary Amber Rudd dodgy financial past and Mrs May is not exactly covering herself in glory (especially with her appointments) Nicola Sturgeon (aka The Winging Jock) is romping away, here and abroad. This is the political equivalent of 'the perfect storm' for the U.K.

[Ian]

Hmm.   That wasn't exactly what they said.

"The MPs said the failure of the Labour Party "consistently and effectively to deal with anti-Semitic incidents in recent years risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-Semitic"

So a rather more cautious comment, but nonetheless a worrying one. I note they also mentioned the NUS and Twitter and the fact that the groups most vehemently anti-semitic have traditionally been the far right. This is a vexing question, however; it's all too easy to excuse jokes and comments which betray attitudes towards the Jewish communities because they're not protected specifically, in the same way as black communities, or Gay communities are. And many still believe that anti-race hate legislation is wrong.

I think the problem exists because we're essentially a more tolerant society than many and accept all religions on an equal basis, although Judaism and the Jewish are unlike any other socio-religious group inasmuch as being Jewish is not simply a religion but a cultural identity. But returning to the Labour Party I'm not at all sure that they're inherently any more anti-Jewish than any other party.  However, they're probably a lot less subtle about it.

And this is extremely heavyweight for a Sunday morning...

[Bosun]

Whilst I can only agree with your post in the main, the fact that the report said that the Jeremy Corbyn was creating a safe space for people with “vile attitudes towards Jewish people” and your quote that his actions (or lack of them) “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-semitic” in reality tends to suggest far beyond any reasonable doubt that the Labour Party is anti-Semitic. As I pointed out, even Shami Chakrabarti, in her enquiry said there is an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and that there was "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes". I'm not sure how much more evidence is required.....

However, I agree with you that possibly no more than other some other groups - as you mention, the report mentions the NUS and Twitter, but, and it's quite a large but, those groups are not the official Parliamentary Opposition Party who aspire to government and run the country.

I am also tempted to suggest a new thread - for the most irritating, annoying Politician that you'd like to put in the stocks and pillorise. Then I realised that there'd be too many candidates. But, Jeremy Hunt seconded by Emily Thornbury are leading for me..............   

Oh, is it Sunday today? I hadn't noticed.......

[Hugo]

......

With daily revelations about the Home Secretary Amber Rudd dodgy financial past and Mrs May is not exactly covering herself in glory (especially with her appointments) Nicola Sturgeon (aka The Winging Jock) is romping away, here and abroad. This is the political equivalent of 'the perfect storm' for the U.K.

Jimmy Krankie  isn't popular with everyone abroad

[Fester]

Whilst I can only agree with your post in the main, the fact that the report said that the Jeremy Corbyn was creating a safe space for people with “vile attitudes towards Jewish people” and your quote that his actions (or lack of them) “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-semitic” in reality tends to suggest far beyond any reasonable doubt that the Labour Party is anti-Semitic. As I pointed out, even Shami Chakrabarti, in her enquiry said there is an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and that there was "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes". I'm not sure how much more evidence is required.....

However, I agree with you that possibly no more than other some other groups - as you mention, the report mentions the NUS and Twitter, but, and it's quite a large but, those groups are not the official Parliamentary Opposition Party who aspire to government and run the country.

I am also tempted to suggest a new thread - for the most irritating, annoying Politician that you'd like to put in the stocks and pillorise. Then I realised that there'd be too many candidates. But, Jeremy Hunt seconded by Emily Thornbury are leading for me..............   

Oh, is it Sunday today? I hadn't noticed.......

Ones for the Pillory,  I agree that Jeremy Hunt and Emily Thornbury are idiotic and therefore must be at the front of that queue.
But, that new Tory Secretary of State for Wales who blamed Plaid Cymru for burning down cottages 45 years ago deserves a special place in hell.
The poor standard and low intelligence of politicians in this modern era is mind boggling.

[Ian]

We are becoming disenchanted with politicians across the board. That's one reason why Trump has got as far as he has, I'm sure.

I'm currently watching a chilling documentary series on Adolf Hitler's rise to power and what's specifically chilling about it is that he was democratically elected. German voters voted him and his party in, because he said the sorts of things they wanted to hear. I think that's what worries me the most: we're sliding toward a situation in which 'the will of the people' could bring a lot of problems.

[Fester]

We are becoming disenchanted with politicians across the board. That's one reason why Trump has got as far as he has, I'm sure.

I'm currently watching a chilling documentary series on Adolf Hitler's rise to power and what's specifically chilling about it is that he was democratically elected. German voters voted him and his party in, because he said the sorts of things they wanted to hear. I think that's what worries me the most: we're sliding toward a situation in which 'the will of the people' could bring a lot of problems.

.... Indeed Ian, something I warned about on this Forum about 4 years ago.
It's the apathy of the more peaceful majority that leads to the militant and dangerous minority achieving power.

[born2run]

Hatred is becoming an accepted norm. The Daily Mail gets more outlandish and racist every day. It has been on a steady rise since Brexit I have been monitoring it and it is surely at a peak at the moment.
The top comments from people in their stories now, are not just blaming refugees for problems but actively condoning the murder of all of them, very scary times.

[Bosun]

The Daily Mail is indeed plumbing the depths and putting a worrying slant on most of their 'news' story headlines. I actually agree that there has been a tangible rise in xenophobic comment from everywhere. I don't know if Trump's and Farage's abysmal performances, behaviour and lies have lowered the acceptable standards bar even lower, compounded by the depressing conduct and antics of the political parties here. Politicians have now sunk below the level of the legal profession in my view, and that's saying something.....