Crime and criminals

[DaveR]

Nope, my limerick was better.... before you MODERATED it! 

I've not touched it.

[Ian]

I left this a day before commenting further as I wanted to see what sorts of things would be posted.

  It's sad that you're more interested in the criminal than the victims, Ian.

That's not worthy of you, Dave, and a bit naughty, as I'm sure you're aware:-))  For those who don't realise what Dave was up to, it's called a Straw Man argument.  He's tried to infer from my posts that I 'care' more for the defendant than the 'victim', although, being a person of substantive intellect, he's chosen his words very carefully.

The facts are very simple:  it took Fatandy to discover the boys' ages (interestingly, one was indeed 17, the other 15) so now we at least know they were unlikely to have been seduced in their innocence. In fact, had the perpetrator been a 17 year old girl naked in her car I wonder what the reactions in here would be then?

There's also another point. here; the defendant could not possibly have known the ages of the boys and, in any case, one was above the legal age of consent in this country, as were both in most countries around the world. Finally, Fatandy also mnakes a very pertinent point when he posted 

To be honest the thing that surprises me the most is that they didn't take the £250 and then do a runner.  It's not like he could have sued them for not posting the photos online. 

While I agree with Dave's response I wonder if - when the two young men realised he was slightly dotty and wasn't going to pay them anything - they decided to 'shop' him because they felt irritated with the outcome.

  Ian, 2 words, James Bulger. Now do one and go and hug a tree. Your posts on this issue make me fume lad

Sorry, but I simply don't see the relevance of that remark. Firstly, the Bulger case was totally different in so many ways it's hard to know where to start and, as it lacks any sort of premise and is merely a statistical syllogism, I can't really respond. Child-on-child murders are - thankfully - rare, but when they happen they make a massive impact.  The Bulger case was truly horrifying but has no bearing on this man's actions.

[Ian]

Some more insight into this case from the NWWN today. Disturbingly, it seems that he twice asked the boys to get into his car before they ran off and found a policeman. 

Hmmmm…gosh, a 17 year old and a 15 year being lured into a car for..sweeties?

I wonder if he still has his driving licence Hmm! deranged and driving a bit of a worry as well. 

Sorry, Linda, I found that incredibly funny, probably because I was trying to think if any part of the Road Traffic Act mentioned driving while only wearing a bra :-))

As far as the man being an ex soldier and possibly saving many lives etc I disagree with the sentiment in that one im afraid.   

Linda - it wasn't a sentiment.  I was trying to demonstrate  how mitigating factors, such as the types of traumatic stress disorders soldiers can experience do play a part in determining how sufferers can translate the effects into their behaviour in daily life, confabulation being one such exceptionally worrying example.

my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

The sentence wasn't feeble. As I've said, we don't know the details, but the facts we do know are not only bizarre but are such that the specialists that will have been consulted do not feel institutionalising this man is the best course of action for society.

Im not saying this person shouldnt be treated but im very concerned that he is free to wander and possibly target even younger folk. 

I suspect he's far from 'free' in that sense, and will be closely supervised as a condition of the sentence.

Too many kids have suffered needlessly when the authorities were aware of these 'Risky' people….my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

There is no evidence that those who commit crimes towards children are influenced from knowledge of severer sentences.  It's the single fact that the DFM fails to grasp on every occasion: increasing the severity of sentences has no discernible effect on crimes. The US has the death sentence in several states, yet gun crime there is the highest in the world.

[Ian]

I also find it interesting that the questions I posed have not been answered or even debated.

Perhaps we ought to be concerned with more obvious crimes towards children, such as the Stephen Lawrence affair, which resulted in the Met Police being condemned as institutionally racist. Or the thousands of children being brutalised, starved, raped, beaten and maimed in countries like Syria, or the children who attempt to flee countries like N Korea who are recaptured by the N Koreans and who then face torture and possible death.   

What about these crimes? Why are we not posting passionately about them?

I think you missed the part about him masturbating in front of the two young boys, Ian? One would hope that you would not consider that acceptable behaviour in front of young children? 

But, as we now know, (although I suspected) they were far from being 'young boys', weren't they?

 

    So we deal with all incidents judged purely on the act and not take into account any reasons or motives?  Is that what you're saying?

The focus should be on protecting innocent people (especially children) from people like Tunney, who obviously cannot control his actions.

Er, yes, but you haven't answered the question...

[Linda]

Some more insight into this case from the NWWN today. Disturbingly, it seems that he twice asked the boys to get into his car before they ran off and found a policeman. 

Hmmmm…gosh, a 17 year old and a 15 year being lured into a car for..sweeties?

I wonder if he still has his driving licence Hmm! deranged and driving a bit of a worry as well. 

Sorry, Linda, I found that incredibly funny, probably because I was trying to think if any part of the Road Traffic Act mentioned driving while only wearing a bra :-))

Ian,
I have no problem with transvestites etc as living and running a Pub for years I consider I am open minded in a lot of ways. It was the flashing and masturbating in public in front of anybody! that i have a problem with! and seeing as the Judge has found this man to have
mental problems, Id like to add the a Car is a lethal weapon on the road to someone with severe mental health problems, which clearly is the case

As far as the man being an ex soldier and possibly saving many lives etc I disagree with the sentiment in that one im afraid.   

Linda - it wasn't a sentiment.  I was trying to demonstrate  how mitigating factors, such as the types of traumatic stress disorders soldiers can experience do play a part in determining how sufferers can translate the effects into their behaviour in daily life, confabulation being one such exceptionally worrying example.

my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

The sentence wasn't feeble. As I've said, we don't know the details, but the facts we do know are not only bizarre but are such that the specialists that will have been consulted do not feel institutionalising this man is the best course of action for society.

Im not saying this person shouldnt be treated but im very concerned that he is free to wander and possibly target even younger folk. 

I suspect he's far from 'free' in that sense, and will be closely supervised as a condition of the sentence.

Too many kids have suffered needlessly when the authorities were aware of these 'Risky' people….my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

There is no evidence that those who commit crimes towards children are influenced from knowledge of severer sentences.  It's the single fact that the DFM fails to grasp on every occasion: increasing the severity of sentences has no discernible effect on crimes. The US has the death sentence in several states, yet gun crime there is the highest in the world.

[Ian]

I suppose it depends on exactly what it's hoping will be achieved by capping benefits. If it means the feckless will have to work for a living, then it seems a practical solution to an otherwise intractable problem. But I'm uneasy. First off, it's politically motivated and not needs-led, which means it's a measure designed to punish and penalise. But if it's intended to lower the cost to the tax payer, then I can't see how it will (and seriously going after the big tax avoiders would probably work a lot better).

Any family with children will be protected because of the Children Act, so being booted out of their homes won't be an option. So I'm not sure how it's going to help.

[Ian]

It was the flashing and masturbating in public in front of anybody! that i have a problem with! and seeing as the Judge has found this man to havemental problems, Id like to add the a Car is a lethal weapon on the road to someone with severe mental health problems, which clearly is the case

I agree.  But it depends on exactly what his problems are and how they manifest. DVLA has a lit of conditions that disbar drivers from holding a licence, and I'm sure that will be looked into.

The reaction to masturbation and flashing illustrates the dichotomy that exists in the British psyche regarding sex. On the one hand, millions of people applaud comedians and watch TV shows that contain a lot worse, yet those same millions throw up their hands in horror at this sort of article. Masturbation, particularly in men, has long been associated with shame and concealment, and - for that very reason - is a sure fire way for comics to raise a laugh at their gigs. But I worry that we try to bring children up to preserve their innocence as long as we can, while at the time entertainers make double entendres and advertisers seek to sexualise little girls. It's a very difficult issue, as I'm sure you're aware.

[Hugo]

That's an interesting theory Ian, although I don't think that it's politically motivated seeing that all the other parties support the idea in principle.
When you say that families with children will be protected, are you saying that they will be exempt from the £26K Benefit capping?

[Linda]

We obviously have to agree to defer on your softly softly approach Ian,. When i first moved to North Wales my husband was a police officer having worked in Manchester his 'beat' Moss side,coming here was wonderful in a way that the crime rate was so low .Not the same worry about his safety. Try explaining to the families of victims that there loved ones have been attacked, killed by someone who clearly had severe mental problems and that was known to the authorities to be a risk. Example (No names) child dragged out of a tent in Craigydon and murdered a number of years ago, numerous others also. As far as overseas atrocities other than support the revelant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me. The great compassion I feel towards these youngsters as a mother I would like to gather them and put them somewhere safe.
In brief answer to the British attitude towards masturbation its a damn good job most of the public has control as and where  .   I agree there should be no shame attached but keep it private!!!!!!!! 

[born2run]

It's a token principal mainly set out to help appease the angry right wing voters who are upset about the gay marriage bill.
I don't know why anybody is even taking it seriously - this is politics by numbers 

[Yorkie]

We obviously have to agree to defer on your softly softly approach Ian,. When i first moved to North Wales my husband was a police officer having worked in Manchester his 'beat' Moss side,coming here was wonderful in a way that the crime rate was so low .Not the same worry about his safety. Try explaining to the families of victims that there loved ones have been attacked, killed by someone who clearly had severe mental problems and that was known to the authorities to be a risk. Example (No names) child dragged out of a tent in Craigydon and murdered a number of years ago, numerous others also. As far as overseas atrocities other than support the revelant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me. The great compassion I feel towards these youngsters as a mother I would like to gather them and put them somewhere safe.
In brief answer to the British attitude towards masturbation its a damn good job most of the public has control as and where  .   I agree there should be no shame attached but keep it private!!!!!!!!

Why does your Husband being a Police Officer make any difference? 

As for the Sophie Hook murder, the purpetrator was convicted and sentenced accordingly.

What does one do about the Madeleine McCann case where the child was allegedly abducted after being left unattended, and without supervision, whilst the parents went out for dinner and drinks with their friends?  Have the parents been castigated?  No!  Has any other child ever attracted so much attention, involved so much Police time, and cost so much money?  No!   And all because she was left alone with her younger siblings, and without protection.

If parents put their children at risk they must accept the blame.

[Ian]

When you say that families with children will be protected, are you saying that they will be exempt from the £26K Benefit capping?

BTR is correct.  What happens is that the family who finds their cap is insufficient to pay their rent will be found more money through the system.  They won't be 'exempt' as such, just that more money will come their way through  various means. The Children Act has two main effects:  it won't permit the children to be made homeless and it won't allow families to be broken up. All the main parties support it because they're concerned about looking bad in the eyes of the electorate if they didn't.

[Linda]

I apologise if I didn't fully explain , the fact that my hubby was a police officer doesn't have much bearing at all ,except for the fact of him comparing the crime rate which  seemed very very low in comparison to where he had worked before. Now seems to me that our area now has caught up on  crime, drug scene ,assault etc. I was merely pointing out what we believed at the time of moving that this area was great to bring our family up, and i didn't word it correctly.
I also agree children should be under constant parental supervision.  All children should be safe playing and maybe they would be safer if we were not so lenient with some of these sentences.That is my argument.Sadly some folk are downright naive to think i wont happen to them and there are some folk downright negligent where their children are concerned. It STILL doesn't give anyone the right to touch that child. My opinion is firm on that one, it doesn't matter whether a poor uncared for little mite or a child from a nurtured environment walks down the road, we have a duty to make that walk a safe one as far as our resources allow.

[Yorkie]

I concur with all you say. 

[Ian]

Now seems to me that our area now has caught up on  crime, drug scene ,assault etc

Nope.  It's nothing near, Linda.  My niece and Nephew are both Met officers and crime in the cities is much, much worse.

All children should be safe playing and maybe they would be safer if we were not so lenient with some of these sentences.That is my argument

Not true.  More children were abused and killed years ago than now. Check out the stats.  And don't forget: it's not strangers that abuse children: in the main it's family relatives and friends. In fact, apart from families and friends, children are safer today than they've ever been.

As far as overseas atrocities other than support the relevant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me.

I don't understand that. How do the atrocities 'overseas' differ in any way at all from the subject we were discussing? They both involved 'children', you personally knew neither of the parties and they both involve needless suffering, although possibly not the Tunney affair.  The only differences as far as I can see is that the overseas issues are far more severe and they're further away. How does that stop anyone posting about them?