Three Towns Forum

Members' Lounge => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Fester on October 06, 2010, 01:06:36 am

Title: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 06, 2010, 01:06:36 am
I became aware of a very worrying statistic today.

Although 2.5 million people in the UK are ''Unemployed, and on Job Seekers Allowance''

There are another 8 MILLION who are catgorised as ''Economically Inactive''

Children and Pensioners are not included in this figure, but students are.

Am I right to be worried (or sickened) by this?   What does Forum members think about this?


Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 06, 2010, 08:12:49 am
"economically inactive" adults – those that have either chosen not to or given up looking for a job. They include students, parents staying at home to look after children, long-term sick, and the "discouraged", a euphemistic term used by the ONS to describe those that have given up the struggle to find a job."
I think the 'discouraged' should be 'encouraged' to find a job by a swift boot up the rear...  $uk
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 06, 2010, 08:38:59 am
The UK labour market comprises three main groups: the employed, the unemployed and the economically inactive. This latter group consists of those people who are out of work but who do not satisfy all of the International Labour Organisation (ILO) criteria for unemployment. This is because they are either not seeking work or are unavailable to start work.

Economic inactivity lies on the supply side of the labour market framework, as economically-inactive people have the potential to move into the labour market at some point in the future.

Broadly speaking, the inactive group can be divided into those who want a job and those who do not.

Official figures on inactivity are based on the results of the Labour Force Survey (LFS). In addition to the numbers and rates of people who are inactive, the LFS collects information on their reasons for inactivity. It is also possible to look at the characteristics of the inactive group by combinations of the criteria of wanting work, seeking work and availability for work. New questions are being devised which better measure a respondent's attachment to the labour market.

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) publishes monthly statistics on economic inactivity by age and reason in the labour market statistics First Release and in the Economic and Labour Market Review.

In purely local terms, the opportunities for long-term, well-paid employment in this area are fairly limited;  most exist within the pubic service bodies where people on even the most basic jobs are paid significantly more than the minimum wage.  However, with the impending spending cuts, we can expect such positions to become rarer and it;s also wroth noting that hotels - one of the main employer groups - have traditionally found it extremely difficult to get local people to work in them, so have had to turn to the Eastern European community for most of the staff.

Young, single mothers also form a significant slice of the economically inactive locally, so what should be done about them?   I seriously doubt there are any easy answers.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 06, 2010, 10:08:05 am
I have just watched an episode of The Jeremy Kyle show which showed endless amounts of people who do not work, have never worked, and have no intention of working ever.

Neither have thier parents .... and some are encouraging thier kids to do likewise.

It is a social culture problem,  only exacerbated by the lack of ''real'' jobs...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 06, 2010, 10:43:08 am
As long as a teenage girl who doesn't get on with her parents can get a flat of her own simply by getting pregnant then the problem will persist.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 06, 2010, 01:36:39 pm
I had a chuckle when I read Fester's comments on the Jeremy Kyle show. I walk the dog in the morning after the school run and arrive back when the show is on.  There does seem to be a benefit culture in this country and some of the people appearing on the show can only be described as scum.
One thing I did like about the show was the lie detector tests and think that it's a pity that they can't use it as part of the legal process, even if only as circumstantial evidence.  You seldom get accused people asking to do lie detector tests and I wonder why!
With regard to benefit  payments I was half listening to David Cameron the other evening and something he said did make sense.   No one on benefits should receive more money than the average wage earner receives.  That isn't fair to those people prepared to work and the system shouldn't encourage people not to work.
When you read about the family from Llangefni with 7 children and another on the way (she hopes to have 14 children eventually) receiving £815.00 clear in benefits per week and an unemployed Somali family in South Kensington receiving £8000.00 per month in housing benefits for their £2.1 million rented property then something is seriously wrong with the system.     :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 06, 2010, 01:59:47 pm
I believe the new proposals mean that no family will be able to receive more than £500 a week in benefits, which should deal with some of the examples Hugo has mentioned.

I'm finding the uproar about cutting child benefits to rich families amazing...how on earth can a family with an income of £44,000 a year possibly need child benefit? They are nothing more than middle class scroungers, claiming money that could go to people in genuine need.  :rage:

As a letter writer in the Times said today, it's a couple's choice to have children - why should the taxpayer have to contribute?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 06, 2010, 02:44:04 pm
Quote
You seldom get accused people asking to do lie detector tests and I wonder why!

Well, the polygraph is such an unreliable instrument in general that I would advise anyone - particularly the innocent - to stay well clear. One significant issue is that the polygraph only senses when someone is conflicted emotionally, not when they're lying. Normal - i.e. generally honest - folk tend to become conflicted when lying, so it could catch out the honest, or the excessively nervous. However, the habitual liar has frequently been shown to pass such 'tests', simply because they lie so much it doesn't bother them at all. And psychopaths, of course, have no such emotional responses , anyway...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 06, 2010, 02:45:23 pm
Quote
As a letter writer in the Times said today, it's a couple's choice to have children - why should the taxpayer have to contribute?

Indeed.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 06, 2010, 02:46:07 pm
Quote
No one on benefits should receive more money than the average wage earner receives.  That isn't fair to those people prepared to work and the system shouldn't encourage people not to work.

I agree.  But how do you stop it?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on October 06, 2010, 03:41:03 pm
It would be simpler to limit Child Benefit to the FIRST TWO children only.  Then everyone with children receive it and those who don't know how to use, or refuse to use, contraception can have as many as they like providing they can afford them.   ££$

Some will then say, that in poorer families the additional children will suffer.   So maybe it is time to do as the Chinese have done and limit the number of offspring.  Something must be done about the rising World population.   *&(
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 06, 2010, 03:58:17 pm
I'm not sure that it's the numbers of children that are the problem per se;  it's the socio-economic groups to whom the larger numbers are born that present uncertainty.  Most career women and graduates are delaying the arrival of children until their 30s and then only having 1.4 children on average. The real worries are about the teenage, multi-fathered pregnancies that rely solely on state support.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on October 06, 2010, 04:08:42 pm
EXACTLY!   $eu
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 06, 2010, 09:49:12 pm
At the risk of being labelled a Jonah, I can reliably inform you that something WILL be done about the rising world population.
It will not be a managed solution, we are not intelligent enough as a species to achieve that, instead one of the following events WILL sort out the problem.

(those of a nervous disposition look away now)

1, Dwindling resources will inevitably lead to a catastrophic war,  it may be a war based on economic need (food or oil) ... or it may a war based on religious divisions.   But the outcome will deliver a vastly reduced population.

2, A natural disaster, such as Yellowstone Park supervolcano.  The world is overdue obe of those .... and that will do the job most efficiently.

Its only a matter of timing, which one comes first.

Don't bother betting on it though ... there will be no bookies left to collect from!

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 07, 2010, 07:51:26 am
Quote
Dwindling resources will inevitably lead to a catastrophic war,  it may be a war based on economic need (food or oil) ... or it may a war based on religious divisions.

There will certainly be more wars, and I think that they may well be about water - or the lack of it. It's always struck me as particularly sad that wars are instigated by a very small number of people, and are rarely the product of a collective will.  But I think it's safe to assume that wars of the Iraq and Afghanistan variety will increase in number and might well mutate into something much larger.   Z@@
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 08, 2010, 10:05:47 pm
Jeremy Hunt a Tory Cabinet Minister said on TV last night that there should be a ceiling on benefits paid to big families and implied that if the families are going to apply for benefits that are more than the average wage then they would not support it.
It's time that we got away from this benefit culture and I hope they can do something about it.
I'm surprised too that no government has tapped into what is a valuable resource and asked or requested that anyone who is  physically and mentally capable of work do so in order to pay for their benefits.
Perhaps it would be too difficult to administrate or contravene their human rights.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 08, 2010, 11:12:50 pm
I very much agree with taking urgent and positive steps to tackle the benefit culture, and the appaling waste of resource, but bear this in mind.
There will be no change in the human propensity for greed, laziness and need for material things.  Nor will the urge for drugs or alcohol magically disappear, therefore the following equation is true.

Reduced benefits = higher employment ..(people must get money from somewhere) ... but also HIGHER CRIME.

Because those who don't get given money....and refuse to earn it ... will find a way to get what they must have.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 09, 2010, 08:07:56 am
Quote
I'm surprised too that no government has tapped into what is a valuable resource and asked or requested that anyone who is  physically and mentally capable of work do so in order to pay for their benefits.
Perhaps it would be too difficult to administrate or contravene their human rights.

In theory, anyone who is both "physically and mentally capable of work" has to work, because they won't get benefits unless they fall into the category of young single mother. Once children are involved, you have an entirely different ball-game, so stopping benefits will be seized upon by the tabloids as action little short of that proposed by Hitler and his chums.

There are several issues here, and  none is easy to solve. Most relate to Human rights legislation - to which we adhere - and many relate to the DFM - the Daily Mail and its slime-caked compatriots.   

It's important to realise that the DFM's agenda is pro-Tory but it's also conscious that its reader-base is the very group often caught cheating on benefits. Ultimately, their aim is to make money, which they will always try to do through the routine demolition of careers, aspirations and achievements of those non-Tories in the public eye, yet even the DFM is having trouble with the latest child benefit proposals.

Finally the other problem with the suggestion that all able-bodied are required to work is practicality. If there's simply no work available, what d'you do?  Put them to work building roads, perhaps?  Administration after administration has tried to stem the welfare tide, yet none has succeeded.  But there's one other thing it's worth thinking about.  HMRC estimates indicate that Welfare and benefits are running at about £2bn per annum, while tax evasion is estimated at £8bn per annum.  Maybe we're concerned about the wrong groups of people...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 09, 2010, 08:25:51 am
Why should anyone have a problem with the latest Child Benefit proposals? I've seen no-one put forward a cohesive argument as to why a Couple earning more than £44,000 should receive any benefits at all? As I said before, in a area where most people earn around £15,000 a year, it is indefensible and comes across as pure greed.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 09, 2010, 04:19:13 pm
Absolutely.  But those earning over the threshold will be sure to 'need' the cash.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 09, 2010, 05:53:09 pm
Most people live up to their income and would probably argue their case for retaining the benefits but cuts have to be made and it is only fair that there is to be a threshold at which these benefits are paid.
What is not fair is that anyone solely on benefits should receive more money than the average working wage.   I was brought up to believe that if you want anything you have to work to get it.
It seems that there is a growing minority in this country that expect things to be handed to them on a plate and not have to work for it at all.
Another concern of mine is that of Tax Credits, perhaps a good idea in principle but I believe the majority of payments for Tax Credits are made to non UK citizens.   It is no wonder that so many potential illegal immigrants are waiting to come to the UK with our benefit system as it is.   
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2010, 09:33:27 am
Quote
What is not fair is that anyone solely on benefits should receive more money than the average working wage.   I was brought up to believe that if you want anything you have to work to get it.

Yes - I agree, totally.  However, what do you do about the family with fifteen kids? The DFM and their ilk will soon start running stories about starving children.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2010, 09:45:05 am
Quote
Another concern of mine is that of Tax Credits, perhaps a good idea in principle but I believe the majority of payments for Tax Credits are made to non UK citizens.   It is no wonder that so many potential illegal immigrants  waiting to come to the UK with our benefit system as it is.

I've spent some time trying to verify your assertion that the majority of payments for Tax Credits are made to non UK citizens, Hugo, but to no avail. However, I think the Tax Credit system has been an unmitigated disaster from the outset, and really should be consigned to the waste bin of history.

On your second point - that of potential illegal immigrants  waiting to come to the UK with our benefit system as it is - then I concur, again, but the problem is - curiously - one of easy and quick identification. It was actually because of his desire to control illegal immigrant access to the social and welfare services that Tony Blair wanted to introduce identity cards.  They would have acted as a form of insurance, as well as a passport to claiming benefits, and health care.  Interestingly, the Tories - who had previously  supported the idea - decided it was politically expedient to oppose it.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 10, 2010, 01:05:00 pm
Interesting to see the results of the Sunday Times survey that said that 75 percent of people supported the Govt's plans to axe child benefit for the well off.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2010, 01:07:43 pm
The Telegraph reported  53% in favour.  Always fun wondering what the figures would have been had it been a Labour government suggesting it....
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 10, 2010, 04:00:33 pm
I can't see why anyone would object to having an identity card other than the cost of it, but I don't think that is the answer. The criminal masterminds and gang leaders are already capable of forging documents, including passports and they'll do the same with ID cards.
I think that the Government should get tougher on the illegal immigrants as the present system is ridiculous as anyone who has seen the TV programme UK Border Force can vouch.
When the frontline HMRC officers are searching for people working here illegally they have no powers to detain and deport those people unless they can obtain the illegal's passport.  They ask for the passport and will search for it but if they can't find it and the illegal states that they haven't got one then they have to release that person even knowing that they are here illegaly.  What they do is simply caution the suspect and put a condition on the caution that they report to a Police Station at specified intervals.
It's not rocket science but anyone knowing they face deportation will do a runner
Another thing I heard about, although I cannot verify the accuracy is that when an illegal immigrant voluntarily requests to be deported they can be deported with a resettlement payment of £3K. :o    I did read that this illegal immigrant after deportation, if he makes his way back into the UK  can also make the same claim again.  It's his right apparently!!!             :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2010, 06:24:55 pm
Quote
The criminal masterminds and gang leaders are already capable of forging documents, including passports and they'll do the same with ID cards.

That - and the upfront cost to the UK citizen - are the reasons given for binning the idea. But it's now possible to produce cards which are mighty difficult to forge - the UK credit card companies have been enjoying significant success in that area over the past couple of years - and I think the selling point is their ability to prioritise services for UK taxpayers. But the cost of getting the scheme started will almost certainly mean it's a non starter.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 11, 2010, 05:31:19 pm
I've got the latest form of debit card and that didn't stop the b******s from hacking into my bank account last week!      :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 11, 2010, 07:16:42 pm
Quote
I've got the latest form of debit card and that didn't stop the b******s from hacking into my bank account last week!

If they got into your account, then I assume they took money out? If so, the problem many find is proving that the account was indeed 'hacked', and that someone hadn't simply found your pin.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 12, 2010, 11:48:36 am
It was done in Portugal 2 weeks ago and they had 3 more attempts the day after,. although they weren't successful on those attempts.   :rage:.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on October 12, 2010, 11:55:40 am
I been going to Portugal for many a year and have never had problems there.  I've also never used any form of credit or debit card there either, maybe that I why I've been free of trouble.      $wales

I have had a couple of attempts against my Credit Card in the UK, but my card company (Capital One) picked them both up and informed me immediately.   Great service!    :D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 12, 2010, 01:52:48 pm
What actually happened Yorkie was that two attempts were tried and authorised by the bank BUT the bank contacted me as fraud was suspected and the payments were never taken out of my account.  Three other attemts were made but authorisation was forbidden.
So in effect no deductions were made from my account thanks to the diligence of the bank but it has caused some inconvenience and concern for the future.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 12, 2010, 02:06:35 pm
Changing the subject back to benefits, there are obvious flaws in the system that need looking at.      One thing I can't get my head around is the fact that EU people working in this country qualify for child benefits EVEN IF their children are not living in the UK with them and are instead living with the other parent in their own country.
It seems a farce and is open to fraudulent claims.  An example for instance is that of some Polish workers who are working over here and their families remain back  in Poland.  They are claiming child benefits in the UK for their children who are still living in Poland and the other parent still living in Poland is claiming child benefits there too!
In fact the Polish government are concerned over this as there has been a rise of 500,000 new cases in Poland of people claiming these benefits.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: dontheturner on October 14, 2010, 11:29:31 am
Please excuse me, for diving in to comment here, -  as a total Newbie.

I and my thai Wife, are here in Thailand, and have been for four years.

I have my pensions, paid into A Lloyds A/C in the UK, and my Attorney/Son in Law then created a Monthly Credit transfer into the Bangkok Bank. I also have another Lloyds A/C, with a D/D Card, which I use here.

Should I need extra Cash, I call him, via Skype Phone, directly. We never mention cash, I tell him, say, a Thousand Should move, or whatever.

Five weeks ago, My Daughter, emailed me, and advised  me,that  Lloyds Fraud department, wanted to speak to me, as they had a problem, with one of my Payments, so I rang them.
They asked me have you authorised a payment, of near £70, to www.kiddiecare.com (http://www.kiddiecare.com) (guess what they sell)
I told them NO. , and I further told them, that all my payments, are via Paypal, which their Statements show.  I told them to cancel the Debit Card.
The next day they rang me,asking if I had authorised a payment, of..
£389, to www.shareit.com (http://www.shareit.com), I again told them NO.  two days passed, and my Daughter, emailed an attachment
Bank Statement, they had just recieved, showing a drip-feed of EURO withdrawals, bringing my balance down by over £700.  ( I Never Use Euros).
I went berserk, and closed the account, till I return - so cannot ring anyone, nor can II buy my Flight Tickets via the internet,(Bangkok Bank, neither recognises Ebay, nor Paypal)  but I have submitted a claim against Lloyds,and have told them, that it shows,hemorrhage from their Statement,, that someone, was testing their system out,at my expense. Lloyds, gave me the impression, that it would have continued, had I not reacted, as I did. That is my thought.  dontheturner
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 14, 2010, 02:59:13 pm
Sorry to hear about your problems with the bank and I hope they are sorted out as soon as possible and the bank will make good any loss you have had.   My bank said that they would have made good any fraudulent loss but as it happens they intervened before the money was removed from my account.
It's not like a car park where you park at the owners risk, these banks are custodians of our money and I believe that the responsibility for looking after it is theirs.
On another note, some years ago I sent my Thai niece a birthday card with Thai money inside it and it was never reveived.    My brother who lives over there for part of the year said that it happens quite a lot so I never sent any money with the cards now.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on October 14, 2010, 05:08:00 pm
Sending stuff to Italy is dodgy also, especially small parcels!    $eu
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 15, 2010, 08:15:17 am
Sorry to hear about that, Don.  The bank should have records of the electronic transfers involved ,and should be able to at least locate where the money was taken and how.  The problem will be determining how they obtained your log-on info.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 15, 2010, 11:13:39 pm
I would wager a pound against a pile of sh#t, that Don's problem originates IN Thailand!
I have had numerous acquaintances where this phenomenon occured.

I would even confidently suggest that a family connection could be close to the source of this problem... just could be.

It bears close investigation.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: dontheturner on October 16, 2010, 02:49:48 am
I would wager a pound against a pile of sh#t, that Don's problem originates IN Thailand!
I have had numerous acquaintances where this phenomenon occured.
I would even confidently suggest that a family connection could be close to the source of this problem... just could be.
It bears close investigation.

Hello Guys,I really cannot think that,as I have never splashed cash about, in any way here.  Oddly, three withdrawals, were payments to Apple - though that has taken me some digging to discover,  my Daughter, received a new D/D card for me (Lloyds have no direct dealings with me, here, as Julian is my Attorney/S.I.L
and takes care of all that, incl. rental on my UK Home) anyway, she Air Mailed it, and That has never got here!- so after two weeks, that was when I closed the A/C - and will now leave it, till I get back , hopefully for good, in February.. Hope there are not too many closed up shops, there when I come a-visiting.Please, you guys, do look out, for an Old Old man, with a lovely Thai lady, on his arm.  Don =( PS She is OVER  50)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 16, 2010, 08:26:05 am
The riskiest - yet inevitably most compelling - area for card cloning is on line shopping.  We've had our credit cards cloned twice but although it's an inconvenience, there's no risk to you, as you're well protected in law.  Using a debit card is riskier, which is why we don't - ever.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 16, 2010, 09:19:45 am
QUOTE - Please, you guys, do look out, for an Old Old man, with a lovely Thai lady, on his arm.  Don =( PS She is OVER  50)


Good God man, over 50? .... she looks lovely enough to me .... but didn't you say you were 80?

I once had a girlfriend TEN years younger than me,  and for the first few months it was great .... but then it quickly turned into an insane nightmare.
But 30 years difference?    It must be hell.
She won't remember any of the Films and TV shows or music you want to talk about.

I'd be on the lookout for an nice 78 year old ....  oh, my Mum's on the shelf at the moment?   I'll have her here in February for you.




Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: dontheturner on October 16, 2010, 09:47:23 am
 
 I just guessed the last response was from ''Fester'', now I wonder what made me think that?
 No!  just reading your posts! I have no fear, of my Wife, thinking things through for herself - as she has to believe what I tell her!  - she has no prior experience!

 I did comment somehwre about Brixham, but I cannot locate it anywhere.
 I had mentioned a Salvation Army Band, as playing for community Hymn singing.  Now I can confirm it -   , but since I was there last,  it now takes place on the Fish Quay - under the Roof section,, at 3pm, and only from June to September, and only 1st 3rd and 4th weeks of the month., but ithey are also there, on Tuesdays at 8pm.   dontheturner
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: dontheturner on October 16, 2010, 09:58:54 am
 
 Fester!  P.S.  Got a spare shot of Mother for me? as a ''Mai Noi'', is perfectly legal in Thailand. ( Only Joking)   don.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 16, 2010, 10:01:08 am
Thai brides are very different in their cultural expectations (I presume she's Buddhist?). They're generally much more contented and relaxed then their Western counterparts, who - generally - have been fed a diet of unexpurgated materialistic and romantic expectations by the media since their birth.


Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 20, 2010, 06:12:25 pm
Maybe this isn't the right place to post this, but thanks Ian for posting all that info about safety on line.   I would like to think I'm very careful with my details but having experienced attempts on my bank account recently, I'll follow the advice that you have posted.
I didn't realise just how widespread it is until speaking to friends following those attempts, because  they have had the same experience too.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian Ralph on October 22, 2010, 11:03:11 pm
original topic unemployment and benefits- difficult as now seeing the third generation of claiments within one family, Its now a family tradition and you know how defensive people can be about tradition....
Online fraud- I bank, shop,take payments for my business and send money from my mobile(yes to the kids) all online, and i do this Knowing just how easy online fraud is to commit as I see it every day in one form or another.
so easy is the harvesting of card information from so called secure websites it has led to card details being sold on known hack sites for as little as $5 per 1000.  A friend in the banking system tells me each branch get notifications of known fraudulent transactions sent to them weekly, however it is not up to the bank to notify thier customer, more for the bank to have a heads up should the customer come in to complain. The reason I continue to bank and trade online is because everything is recorded and despite having a debit card cloned an account drained to the max o/draft allowance and paypal freezing my balance for a week I have always had all my money back and in the case of the bank account transfers recieved compensation for inconvenience £15.00 (its the thought that counts)
what is annoying is that very few are ever caught or prosecuted.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 23, 2010, 08:19:36 am
Quote
what is annoying is that very few are ever caught or prosecuted.

Good to hear from you, Ian :-))

Is that mainly because so many of the card fraud cases are instigated by people whose geographical location makes them next to impossible to prosecute? Chinese and Far East card fraud seems endemic.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 24, 2010, 04:04:04 pm
In the Sunday Times today, they had a big features on the cutbacks to come. One of the featured people was a woman complaining bitterly because her £140 a month Child Benefit was going to be cut.  Thing is, she earns £36,000 a year and her husband earns £90,000 a year. So, a family income of £126,000 a year and she thinks she's entitled to benefits!! She's no better than a dole scrounger, in my view, just pure greed.  :rage:  :rage:  :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 25, 2010, 08:00:12 am
They were rather canny in tackling child benefits; most people think in the same vein, I suspect.  Not sure there's a case for things like the pensioner fuel allowance, either;  £250 given to everyone who has an over-60 in the household seems odd.   
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Tillymint on October 26, 2010, 10:49:45 pm
Not sure how true this is because I haven't looked into it ..... a friend has told me that all pensioners get the winter fuel allowance and cold weather payments, including ex pats living in Spain etc. What is that all about??
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 27, 2010, 08:22:42 am
If they maintain an address in the UK, then yes;  they will.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 29, 2010, 10:54:03 pm
Cameron was on TV again tonight trying to defend the decision to cap housing benefit at £20K.   Now I'm no fan of his but I can't see how any one can object to this as many people in this area who work full time have to live on less than £20k per annum and their taxes pay for these benefits.
That extreme example I quoted previously of an unemployed Somali with 7 children claiming £96K just in housing benefits just shows that the system was in drastic need of an overhaul and it is long overdue.   :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 30, 2010, 09:39:11 am
You've hit the nail on the head there, Hugo. The Govt have been very shrewd in ensuring that the changes to things like Child and Housing Benefit cannot be seen as anything other than fair by the working person in the UK. It cannot be right that any family receives tens of thousands of pounds in Housing Benefit to live in an area of London where the vast majority of working people would not have a hope of being able to live.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 30, 2010, 10:05:08 am
But as long as we're signed up to the European Human Rights convention, what can we do?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 30, 2010, 10:35:37 am
But as long as we're signed up to the European Human Rights convention, what can we do?
I think the Govt's done it, Ian, Housing Benefit is being capped at £20,000 per year. That still seems pretty generous to me.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 31, 2010, 08:12:11 am
I'll wait to see if that actually happens, I think.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 31, 2010, 08:34:45 am
I don't think they can be seen to back down on it now, and most people support the measure, I suspect.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on December 10, 2010, 04:07:39 pm
It's unbelievable that the government are giving so much away in various benefits and more annoying that people think it is their human right not to have to work for things they want to buy.
The example of alcoholics getting an extra allowance for something that after all is self inflicted is quite annoying , as many a working class person would like to enjoy a drink socially but have to economise on things like that because of the present financial climate.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on December 10, 2010, 04:37:41 pm
I'm not sure alcoholism is self inflicted, any more than claustrophobia or arachnophobia. All are examples of mental illnesses, albeit distinctly anti-social ones, although I suppose most mental illness is manifested through anti-social behaviours. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on December 10, 2010, 04:41:55 pm
Are you saying I'm mental? 

As Arfer English would say, "Play the music, open the cage!"    Z**
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on December 11, 2010, 10:51:29 am
One of the most significant burdens is benefit terms is the young single mother. They are required to be housed and maintained.  This is often cited as one reason why teenage girls become pregnant, often without even knowing the identity of the father.  What do we do about that?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on December 11, 2010, 11:04:12 am
One of the most significant burdens is benefit terms is the young single mother. They are required to be housed and maintained.  This is often cited as one reason why teenage girls become pregnant, often without even knowing the identity of the father.  What do we do about that?
Make them live with their parents, instead of housing and maintaining them?

I had to laugh the other week, I saw a comment on Facebook from a single mum, who was complaining that Cartrefi Conwy were coming to install a brand new kitchen in her flat and it would cause disruption. I thought to myself, shouldn't you be thanking your lucky stars that you are getting it all for nothing?  ???

I'm tempted to have a rant about student protests next.....
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on December 11, 2010, 12:05:11 pm
That is if they were all students!                  )*)&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2010, 12:42:28 pm
Pampering to single mothers on benefits is demoralising to any working person.   Would they really have the kids if the knew that they couldn't receive benefits and would have to work to support any that they plan to have?
My brother was telling me about a single mother in her twenties with two children under school age who has never had a proper job in her life and was offered a brand new council.   They also paid for a computer for her kids but what does she use it for, not for further education or anything that would improve her job prospects but just for facebook.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2010, 12:47:21 pm
I'm not sure alcoholism is self inflicted, any more than claustrophobia or arachnophobia. All are examples of mental illnesses, albeit distinctly anti-social ones, although I suppose most mental illness is manifested through anti-social behaviours. 

If that's the case for alcoholism them I suppose you can classify drug addicts and obese people as having a form of mental illness,      ???
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on December 11, 2010, 02:59:39 pm
One of the most significant burdens is benefit terms is the young single mother. This is often cited as one reason why teenage girls become pregnant, often without even knowing the identity of the father.  What do we do about that?
Have we forgotten that for every child born illigitimatly there's two parents. It's often the case that the lads involved have used no contraception either and do not want anything to do with the girls once their  conquests are complete. Below is a post I wrote on Oscars.

I remember about 6 years ago having a conversation with a guy in his 50s at the bar. He was saying about all these women with children from different fathers. He was quite disgusted. I smiled at him and asked "how long he had been married". He said "25 years" so I said "did you have sex with anyone before you were married" quite shocked he answered "well yes" "oh right" I said "how many times ?" with a cheeky smile he said " about 10 times" "right" I answered " so the fact you can't concieve is the only reason you haven't got 10 kids by 10 different women" He said "I never thought of it like that" not smiling anymore I said "well maybe you should before you judge"
If men don't want kids, (which lets face it is why we have so many single mothers) get the bloody snip!
Young people today are not taught any life skills. Contraception does not always work. How many of you have daughters who are single parents, would you want them to stay with their exs' for the sake of the children, no thought not. Theres always two sides to a story.

12 October 2010 12:38
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on December 11, 2010, 03:23:33 pm
Not the sort of topic I would normally get involved with - however - in reply to Pendragon's comments I would point out that contraception is not just the prerogative of the male of the species and the girls are as much, if not more to blame, by allowing themselves to be fertilised!

I well remember a visit many years ago with a female friend to Marie Stopes clinic in London.  There was no such thing as "the contraceptive pill" or the "day after pill" in those days, so today's young women have "never had it so good"!   It is about time that it is realised that the one with the egg has more to lose and should therefore be that liitle bit more responsible.     >>>
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on December 11, 2010, 03:36:55 pm
it is realised that the one with the egg has more to lose and should therefore be that liitle bit more responsible.     >>>
Times have changed Yorkie your right. However the one with the egg has no longer got the most to lose.  With the introduction  of  CSA the ferrel men are now brought to account too. Condoms are available free the CSA will cost you a third of your wages affecting new relationships and finances for the next 18 years. I'm not trying to aportion blame as I believe both parties should be responsible for the outcome of any fling or mad night of unprotected passion (or in most cases Fumbling) Did you know the CSA only get involved if the mother is claiming benefits though.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2010, 04:42:44 pm
Yorkie said:-

 "It is about time that it is realised that the one with the egg has more to lose and should therefore be that liitle bit more responsible"

A lot of these girls have no job anyway so they have a lot to gain with the extra benefits they will receive. They seem to think that it is ok to get pregnant because the state will look after them anyway and then they can spend the rest of their life on benefits without having to work.
I seem to remember reading in the paper recently that these single mums when the children are of a school age will be taken off benefits and be available for work by claiming job seekers allowance.   I hope they stick to their word but I'm sure that the irresponsible element will get around that by having more kids etc and so the cycle goes around.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on December 11, 2010, 04:55:35 pm
I think there's a lot more tax payers cash paid out to people with non existent ailments and disabilities.  >>>
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2010, 06:12:47 pm
You are probably correct, but two wrongs don't make a right.     What is obvious is that the benefit system is being misused and the Government should make the Legislation and resources available now to stop it.   The treasury does not have a bottomless pit and the public know that something drastic needs to be done.
I just find it inconceivable that anyone can think that it is their human right to be supported from cradle to the grave by the Country.  Just what is wrong working to support yourself, most of us have to do it.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on December 12, 2010, 10:24:04 am
Quote
If that's the case for alcoholism them I suppose you can classify drug addicts and obese people as having a form of mental illness,

In fact, both of those conditions are the consequences of an addictive personality disorder so - yes;  I suppose you could. 

Quote
I just find it inconceivable that anyone can think that it is their human right to be supported from cradle to the grave by the Country

And I suspect most would agree with you, Hugo. But when the great social reformers of the 18th and 19th centuries saw the children needlessly dying, the old people living in the gutters and the babies thrown out with the rubbish they decided that that was no way for an enlightened and civilised nation to behave, and thus laid the foundations for what some now deem the 'Nanny state'. Pendragon argues passionately that there are always fathers in the mix (although ,bearing in mind the current season, perhaps not always :-)) but the evidence suggests that we have a split society - one in which there are structured families, hard-working people and a sense of responsibility that parents view as their duty to pass on to their children, and a separate society composed of very young single mothers, lacking in even the most basic parenting skills, who see society as being responsible for all their needs and those of their offspring.

My question - and it remains unanswered - is what should we do about them?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on December 12, 2010, 10:46:34 am
Let them know as they reach puberty, and continuously thereafter, that the State will NOT support them, apart from maybe a piece of bread and a bowl of gruel once a week!  Or is that too harsh?    >>>

It is not just single Mums we are supporting, but anyone, from anywhere, who deems to live in or travel to this country and take advantage of our over-generous welfare system.     :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on December 12, 2010, 04:41:01 pm
We seem to be labeling single mothers here as the problem.  There are some absolutly fantastic single mothers out there and I think we should refrain from stereotyping. Families with both parents living together can be just as bad. Every time you pick up the paper, there they are complaining they can't afford fags and lager and they and their 6 kids, 2 rotweillers and 4 cats have outgrown their free 4 bedroomed houses.  Social parasites are from all walks of life.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on December 12, 2010, 05:16:20 pm
I have nothing against any single Mum or any other user of our Welfare system providing that they do try to earn a living and make a way for themselves in the World.  As has been said, it is the layabouts and spongers who are the carbuncles on our A***!     No particular sex, race, colour, creed, or social standing excludes or includes people in either category.  D)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on December 12, 2010, 07:02:15 pm
Quote
We seem to be labeling single mothers here as the problem.

I don't believe we are.  What we are doing is trying to identify those who depend most on the state without good reason.  And it's hard not to stereotype when you're talking about teenage single mothers.  They represent the single biggest drain on the benefits system.  Housing benefit, child benefit, Council tax benefit, income support, dental care, free transport to and from hospital and GPs, heating allowance - the list goes on and on.  The real problem, however, is that those children who become pregnant are very often from families where benefit-dependency is a culture. If we're serious about tackling the benefit problem, then where do we start?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on December 12, 2010, 07:03:32 pm
As Dylan Thomas said, (paraphrasing) no race or social tier is ''wholly bad or wholly good'' ... but there are trends and tendencies, which are likely to tar all with the same brush.
What I mean is, there are towns in the UK (and cities) where the vast majority of crime is perpertrated by the ethnic 'minority', and something must therefore be done to discourage that minority from coming her,  or encouraging them to work and be honest.

Like all things in life the 'carrot and stick' principle holds true here.   If it is a cushy number to have underage sex, keep the resultant offspring to avoid work and also get housed for free then it will be an attractive proposition.   If those actions draw ridicule, stigma and massive inconvenience then less of it would go on.

If the punishment for an illegal migrant stealing vodk from Asda was public flogging, followed by immediate deportment then very little of it would go on.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on December 12, 2010, 07:16:20 pm
In an attempt to answer Ian's thorny question....
We start by slowly (and I mean slowly) peeling away those benefits, and therefore slowly encouraging a change in that culture.

But, as I have warned before, there will be a gradual and steady increase in crime..... just as we are reducing the numbers of police officers available to deal with that.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2010, 07:19:01 pm
Just what is wrong in the idea or suggestion that any able bodied person should have to work for a living rather than to expect the state to support them?
Many hard working couples have put off having children until such time that they can afford to have them and to give those children a decent start in life.
With regard to single mothers, one child may be an accident but the irresponsible ones don't learn from this and continue to produce children without any thought as to how they are going to provide for the child's future.   They have no intention of looking for work and expect the state to provide everything for them.   That cannot be  right or acceptable to the majority of people.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on December 12, 2010, 07:31:45 pm
Nothing at all is wrong with it, Hugo, everyone agrees except for the lefty hand wringing brigade, who trot out a constant stream of excuses for these people.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on December 12, 2010, 07:45:40 pm
Sometimes the government make it difficult too for instance if you get a part time job you can no longer let family and friends mind the children unless they have child minding certs and PNCs. they have to be put into a nursery which again costs the government money, most parents including myself would rather family "sit" for their offspring.
Another question is where will all these thousands of new jobs be created.  You need to do 16hrs a week to qualify for child support any less and you get no help.  I suppose there's an element of "you can't win".  What effect would it have on the next generation of kids if both parents have to work full time and they spend most of their time in nurseries with people they don't really know.

 ?{}?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on December 12, 2010, 09:30:38 pm
Population growth must be stemmed!   There are just too many people for the available resources.  China is the only country who are doing anything about it!   Teenage pregnancies - NIL.     $fan$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on December 12, 2010, 09:38:25 pm
That's a very good point. The Earth cannot sustain the present levels of population, let alone any increase. Therefore, I propose that all Child Benefits be replaced with a Child Tax - all parents have to pay for each sprog every year.  :P
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on December 12, 2010, 10:49:54 pm
I'll vote for that!  I've said for years that there are far too many people on the planet and now it seems they all want to go to university mainly doing pointless courses and it seems they don't want to pay for the privilege of going there, so they end up going on marches protesting  :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on December 13, 2010, 12:33:10 am
Amen to that.
There are too many people on the planet, and unfortunately only a massive natural disaster will restore the natural order of things.  Z@@

Something akin to the Yellowstone super volcano (which is due to erupt anytime now)

Speaking from personal experience, there are way too many students.  My own daughter (and the children of most people I know) have contemplated university or college etc... because they don't have any real idea what they want to do with thier lives.    And they really don't fancy the world of work!

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on December 13, 2010, 07:37:31 am
Quote
Something akin to the Yellowstone super volcano (which is due to erupt anytime now)

Good film, that... (2012)  ;D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: suepp on December 13, 2010, 09:11:37 am
Parents need to instil the work ethic into their children, there's nothing wrong with a 14 year old getting a part time job,  the sense of satisfaction when they receive their first pay packet will never go away!I feel sorry for the children whose parents are either apathetic or overly protective as they will get a big shock when they enter the world of work in their early twenties. I know an employer who has tried to get an early morning cleaner for  a few hours a week months, Everyone who has applied only lasts a couple of days as they can't sustain getting up in the morning to go to work.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on December 13, 2010, 09:17:50 am
Very true, Sue. One of Llandudno's busiest cafes has a high turnover of staff, as a lot of the staff they take on last only a week or so, they just can't handle the hard work.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on December 13, 2010, 09:38:00 am
Quote
Parents need to instil the work ethic into their children

And therein lies the problem. Tony Blair saw the nuclear family as the target for changing society's attitudes; he knew - and loathed - full well the effect of benefit dependency and wanted to tackle it at the root. When he tried, however, the Tory press - led by the egregious DFM - ran stories about how Labour were ruining families and how Blair saw himself as God.  But the cycle needs to be broken, and it won't be broken unless politicians of all shades recognise that the root of virtually all the social problems lies with the attitudes of the parent.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on December 13, 2010, 10:30:55 am
I have to say I never saw any evidence of Blair doing anything about Benefit Dependency. He asked Frank Field to 'think the unthinkable' about welfare reform...and then sacked him when he did just that!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on December 13, 2010, 11:05:41 am
He started a few things to get people talking, and each time the Tory press ran the hate stories.  He also stopped Incapacity benefit for millions, and cut back on several other aspects.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on February 16, 2011, 11:28:07 am
Another rise in unemployment, all the key indicators are going badly wrong.
A catastrphic economic outlook.
See here...   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12477563 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12477563)

For me, the most worrying situation is that 20% of people between the ages of 16 to 24 have NO job.
Many more have temporary or part time work only, because they cannot find ''real'' jobs.

So, they are at least 20% into their ''working'' lives... and are unable to create any wealth for themselves, or contribute to society in any way.

This is only going to get worse as the public sector sheds more and more jobs in the next year or two.



Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 16, 2011, 11:32:34 am
it seems the real jobs are now in China  ¢¢##
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on February 16, 2011, 11:34:35 am
We're paying the price now for the Labour years, where the only jobs created were hundreds of thousands of public sector ones. The public sector does not generate one penny of wealth for this country. We need to create a business climate that actively encourages businesses to expand - it's the only way out of this mess..
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: norman08 on February 16, 2011, 12:17:22 pm
sorry dave this all started from the thatcher era when she started getting rid of industries from up north, and that was the start of overseas ownership
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on February 16, 2011, 12:51:21 pm
Those industries closed because they were grossly uncompetitive following decades of weak management, little or no investment and suffered from disproportionate trade union influence in their running. Industries were closing left, right and centre during the 1970s long before Thatcher came to power - you'll recall that the flagship of British engineering, Rolls Royce, went bankrupt in 1971. Blaming Thatcher is a lazy economic argument.

Thanks to the last Govt, we now have public spending at levels so high that we have to BORROW an extra four hundred million pounds...EVERY DAY. Just consider that figure...£400,000,000...EVERY DAY. A complete disaster.  :(

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on February 16, 2011, 07:24:39 pm
Quote
Thanks to the last Govt, we now have public spending at levels so high that we have to BORROW an extra four hundred million pounds.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Most of our current predicament stems from two sources: serious fraud in both the investment and retail banking arms in the US and unwise lending decisions by banks throughout the world.

And Norman is partly right; it was the Thatcher years that saw control being taken off the lending institutions, allowing the years of loan profligacy by business, not the public sectors, and private individuals which, coupled with the opening up of industries already owned by the taxpayer to those who could afford to then buy them and thereby pulling off the most astonishing  con-trick in politics led to the never-never society and contributed mightily to the current climate.

Thatcher's obeisance at the alter of monetarism laid the foundations for today's proboems, but I still attribute most of the blame to the US banks. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on February 17, 2011, 12:11:54 am
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, Ian, Norman, Dave... anyone who fancies chipping in.

But in my experience there are two major forces at work.
In point one, you will see that Dave and Norman are actually saying the same thing, just in a different way.

1, There is not enough  manufacturing industry to create wealth in this country.  We are all basically selling insurance or imported goods to each other. We need to be making things, (food, raw materials, cars, machines) and selling them to oveseas buyers.... but we have lost the skills and the work-ethic.

2, In years gone by people used to borrow money, buy a house or suchlike and dutifully pay it back over time.  When that happens the system works fine and is sustainable.    Then society changed (and the mix of races in this country changed too)  suddenly people borrowed ''money'' which was artificially created, and had no intention of paying it back.
That is when the system collapsed.   The money has to be found from those poor mugs like us who work and pay taxes (Income Tax, or VAT or others)

If people no longer wish to play by the rules,  then the game cannot continue.... house price values collapse back to what can be afforded, and the mega pensions and salaries of the past are consiged to history.  Game over.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on February 17, 2011, 07:58:44 am
Quote
There is not enough  manufacturing industry to create wealth in this country.

That's very true. Effectively, the developed world has priced itself out of the market for consumer items production and that seems to be a pattern throughout the Western World. Interestingly, the UK makes most of its money through financial services, research, weaponry and hi-tech industry.  One major consequence of that is that the job market has become rather polarised between skilled  and unskilled work.  There seems to be precious little of the semi-skilled left.  How that came about was down to the factor I mentioned above, and - interestingly - the Thatcher government, who directed schools to aim most of their pupils towards higher education, and painted apprenticeships as jobs for failures.  

To be fair, I'm not sure any government would have acted differently;  the stats at the time implied that we would need an 80% degree-holding workforce by 2000. Unfortunately, that aspiration conveniently ignored the simple truth that most people couldn't acquire a degree.  To get round that, Polytechnics were given University status, encouraged to run degree courses that almost anyone could pass (Needlework, embroidery etc) and teachers set about subverting the government at every turn to increase their pupils' GCSE and A level exam result grades.

So we now find ourselves without an engineering base to speak of (and we used to be world leaders), a cohort of young people who've been led to believe that everyone should go to university and a world centre for financial transactions, particularly in futures.

Whether it will all implode as Fester suggests, only time will tell. But the world had a nasty scare four years ago, and we're all paying the price. But if it does implode then it will go a lot further than simply falling house prices.  We could witness a return to poverty, the like of which hasn't been seen since the eighteenth century. Then, we'll wish for falling house prices.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on February 17, 2011, 07:08:33 pm
As Ian says, the world DID have a nasty scare 4 years ago.... but since then the pattern in progressively downwards.
What I mean is,  in 2008 there was a ''credit crunch'' which mean that banks would lend to no one, not even each other... certainly not for anyone house buying or launching a business.

From the credit crunch, we then entered a ''recession'' .... and everyone suffered accordingly.

Now, the recession is supposedly ''over'' .... but we are being warned that we are now entering a much worse phase !!   ????   What is it? What next?

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on February 18, 2011, 08:58:37 am
Quote
   
Now, the recession is supposedly ''over'' .... but we are being warned that we are now entering a much worse phase !! 


I find that interesting - and worrying.  How much of this is the government lowering expectations I don't know, but the big tax and NI hits arrive in April, interest rates are likely to rise this year, which clobbers everyone, and apparently raw material costs are rocketing - oil, cotton, grain.  I think things might get a lot worse. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on February 18, 2011, 09:01:58 am
Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better - 2 years worth of misery at least.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on February 18, 2011, 09:55:22 am
Quote
Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better - 2 years worth of misery at least.

And on that cheerful note, here's the weather...


 Z@@
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 18, 2011, 10:03:10 am
reading all this reminds me of this...

Monty Python - Four Yorkshiremen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo#)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on February 18, 2011, 10:57:43 am
Excellent!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2011, 05:30:55 pm
I saw the headlines in one newspaper today and it was about a 20 year old girl who didn't like working as it was boring and she would have had to get up early for work!!!
She had turned down 11 jobs and was still getting £800.00 in benefits.
I just hope this Con/ Lib pact get their act together and make working compulsary for all able bodied people.  These people have got a right attitude and think that it is ok just to pick up benefits without having to work.
 :rage:          :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on February 24, 2011, 07:57:06 am
D'you know which paper carried that story, Hugo? Despite Googling possible combinations, I haven't found anything, but I have found this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1360046/European-human-rights-Rent-arrests-tenant-evicted-rules-judge.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1360046/European-human-rights-Rent-arrests-tenant-evicted-rules-judge.html)

The DFM treads an extremely fine line between lying in its stories and reporting fact. They are manipulators of the worst kind.

In the story above, the clear implication is that - once again - the ECHR has stopped the UK from dealing with the indolent and the feckless. The lead paragraph states:

Evicting a woman from her council home for failing to pay rent would breach her human rights, judges ruled yesterday.

yet that's somewhat wide of the truth.  If we read the actual judgement, given at the foot of the article, two things become apparent.  The first was that the ruling was given because the council had not followed all the correct procedures for eviction, and not simply because it would infringe her human rights.

The second factor is that she could have applied for £15000 in housing benefit, but had completed the forums incorrectly, so didn't get it.

I'm certainly not saying it's right that we continue to support those who have no intention of supporting themselves, but we do face some tough choices, and particularly if the DFM's relentless campaign to get us out of the ECHR succeeds.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on February 24, 2011, 08:16:46 am
There's a story in the Pioneer today about a loser who 'kicked off and became abusive' in Asda when he was refused service. This person, who is on incapacity benefit, went to Asda to 'buy more alcohol'.

My question would be....apart from a hard day's work, what is he incapable of doing? Just withdraw his benefit completely - a worthless waste of space.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on February 24, 2011, 08:22:41 am
These sorts of people are the very individuals who create chaos in Hospital A & E departments.  You have to wonder if it would be wiser to refuse all but the most basic treatment to someone who's drunk and abusive.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2011, 06:54:16 pm
Sorry but I can't remember the name of the paper Ian.  I was so mad at seeing it I didn't like to waste my time looking any further. It was the front page of a tabloid newspaper, it wasn't the Daily Mirror as I get that one but a similar coloured one. Don't think it was The Sun but may be The Star perhaps.
Sorry about that, I'll try and take more notice when I see headlines like that.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on February 24, 2011, 11:02:33 pm
These sorts of people are the very individuals who create chaos in Hospital A & E departments.  You have to wonder if it would be wiser to refuse all but the most basic treatment to someone who's drunk and abusive.

They can be easily cured by a little piece of lead being administered into the left ear............... fired from a gun. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on February 25, 2011, 02:19:09 am
These sorts of people are the very individuals who create chaos in Hospital A & E departments.  You have to wonder if it would be wiser to refuse all but the most basic treatment to someone who's drunk and abusive.

They can be easily cured by a little piece of lead being administered into the left ear............... fired from a gun. 

Hmmm......I'm really begining to think you're E-Thug now!  8)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on February 25, 2011, 10:31:03 am
I'm not E-Thug.....but I think I might know who is....I'M OSCAR !!!!

Oh, no thats not right.....sorry........ I'M SPARTACUS !!!



Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 10, 2011, 11:36:35 am
I watched an interesting TV programme on BBC this Tuesday. It was called "Neighbourhood Watched" and very briefly it was about two families who were living in Social Housing.
The two families were at the opposite end of the spectrum. The first family was a husband and wife who lived in a neat 3 bedroom house. They had worked all their life and brought up the children at the house but now now they were in their 80's and the wife was suffering from severe health problems so they needed to downsize. It had a happy ending because they were eventually rehoused in a one bedroomed flat in a good area.
The second family was typical of the Jeremy Kyle generation. An unmarried young woman with a number of children ( 3 I think    ???)    After being evicted from her last home, she made a false application an was rehoused in a very nice new terraced property.  They must have been the neighbours from hell because they were inviting friends around and having late night parties and playing loud music. They were even playing on a trampoline at 5.00am and using a megaphone to cause a disturbance.  It's typical of the mother's attitude because one of her infant sons was called ASBO!   and the mother and child were telling each other to F*** Off so that kid has got no chance whatsoever of having a decent upbringing.  After having many, many chances they were eventually evicted from that house.   I believe that the authorities have then got the responsibility to rehouse this family elsewhere to no doubt cause trouble in their latest accommodation.
It so frustrating that scum like that do not make any positive contribution to society during their lifetime yet think it is their human right to behave like they do and claim benefits while never intending to seek or obtain employment.    :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 10, 2011, 05:59:25 pm
Disgraceful.
You would hope that the evidence from that TV programme alone would be sufficient to begin the process of taking that poor child (Asbo?) into care...
Thus giving it just a slight chance.

Mass sterilisation is part of the answer. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 10, 2011, 10:11:04 pm
The people in that show, i.e the so called "Jeremy Kyle geneation", (nice by the way to class a whole generation after a two bit daytime tv show, watched by less than two million people) were obviously exploited and manipulated and they played up to the camera simply due to their ignorance. Better education and compassion is the answer, not putting children into care, sterilising people or any other half baked reactionary ideals.

Those people are impecunious, naive, angry and directionless. It is not our hatred they need but our help.
As educated and able members of society we should all be more than willing to give that instead of giving our scorn.

"Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. [Proverbs 16:18] "
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 10, 2011, 10:26:07 pm
we've had 13 years of New Labour compassion and still they take the p**s so on balance I will agree with Fester's idea, it would save a fortune in the years ahead
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 10, 2011, 11:06:28 pm
Hey!!   Don't go quoting the Bible at me Born to Run!

I'll win that game everytime...

My favourite proverb is Austin 3:16  which says...   ''I just whooped your ass!''


Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 10, 2011, 11:15:28 pm
Hey!!   Don't go quoting the Bible at me Born to Run!

I'll win that game everytime...

My favourite proverb is Austin 3:16  which says...   ''I just whooped your ass!''




I remember watching that at the time!

Stone Cold 3:16 Is Born (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxlJtyCG-jQ#)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 10, 2011, 11:16:52 pm
...And thats the bottom line.....................cos Stone Cold Says So !
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on March 11, 2011, 01:40:32 am
Steve Austin......I remember when he was barely alive. Could run at 60mph in a pair of Pumas after the operation mind you.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 11, 2011, 08:36:29 am
Quote
Better education and compassion is the answer, not putting children into care, sterilising people or any other half baked reactionary ideals.

Those people are impecunious, naive, angry and directionless. It is not our hatred they need but our help.

While I agree with the sentiment, the arguments in favour of education and compassion have been made - eloquently - for many years, yet the sorts of attitudes which Hugo describes appear to be on the increase.  And I'm not sure you can describe them as impecunious; in many ways, that's at the root of the problem, since impecuniosity per se was abolished many years ago, and we thus have an entire class of people who work the system for all it's worth. 

Education, in short, doesn't seem to be the answer, so what do you think is?

On the other point, taking steps to remove the children from the baleful influence of their parents is fast becoming the only way to prevent the loop closing; if you leave children to be raised by those whose attitudes are dangerously antithetical to the generally accepted mores of a well structured society, then you only perpetuate and possibly aggravate what is already a deteriorating social situation. 

 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 11, 2011, 06:50:31 pm
Quote
Better education and compassion is the answer, not putting children into care, sterilising people or any other half baked reactionary ideals.

Those people are impecunious, naive, angry and directionless. It is not our hatred they need but our help.

While I agree with the sentiment, the arguments in favour of education and compassion have been made - eloquently - for many years, yet the sorts of attitudes which Hugo describes appear to be on the increase.  And I'm not sure you can describe them as impecunious; in many ways, that's at the root of the problem, since impecuniosity per se was abolished many years ago, and we thus have an entire class of people who work the system for all it's worth. 

Education, in short, doesn't seem to be the answer, so what do you think is?

On the other point, taking steps to remove the children from the baleful influence of their parents is fast becoming the only way to prevent the loop closing; if you leave children to be raised by those whose attitudes are dangerously antithetical to the generally accepted mores of a well structured society, then you only perpetuate and possibly aggravate what is already a deteriorating social situation. 

 


Firstly, I don't believe the "problem" is anywhere near as big as the right wing media portray it to be. So I see no need for any radical solutions. What people seem to percieve as a major downfall of standards is often just this generation acting as they do and the older generations wrongly categorizing this behaviour as something to be frightened of and something  that needs to be stopped. This is nothing new, it happened in the 50s with rock & roll and in the 60s with Hippies, even the 70s had Punks and the 80s New Wave! But even at those extremes (Elvis being filmed from the waist up) I don't remember anyone ludicrous enough to suggest they should be seperated from any offspring they may have! The only time I've heard of that kind of thinking in modern(ish) times were the stolen generations of the poor Australian Aborignes, These Children were supposedly "protected" by their society as well!

In answer to your question, as it was well put and deserving of an answer. The way to stop people "milking" the benefit system is to make them feel valuable and worthwhile members of society, who therefore would not want to take money from the pockets of their fellow citizens and who will then strive to go out and work for the greater good. That takes time I know, so as an immediate effect we need to put up the minimum wage to encourage people on benefits to work (we do this with a Robin hood tax and also through a part benefits system, which would pay for itself as the more people going into work would come directly off benefits - i.e (and this is simplified for the sake of simple maths) Norman gets a job and as a minimum wage he gets paid £7 an hour - the government pays the "top up" of £1 to Norman, the employer pays Norman the £6 they would have paid him anyway - If Norman works 37 hours a week he makes £259 before tax -  which is about £200 take home pay. So Norman is well up on the 60 odd pound he would have had on the dole. The Governement is already up the £60 Norman has paid them in tax - and also probably another 60 to 80 pound in housing benefit - out of that they are only paying the £37 top up to minimum wage so the government (and all of us) are also happy!!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on March 11, 2011, 07:11:38 pm
[The way to stop people "milking" the benefit system is to make them feel valuable and worthwhile members of society, who therefore would not want to take money from the pockets of their fellow citizens and who will then strive to go out and work for the greater good.
You have to understand these people have no interest in working for a living. They are not decent people 'down on their luck', they believe people who work for a living are mugs and they also believe are entitled to get everything for nothing. I've met many of them in my time and they are all the same.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: brumbob on March 11, 2011, 07:20:17 pm
The way to stop people "milking" the benefit system is to make them feel valuable and worthwhile members of society,
but they're not, end of story.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 11, 2011, 08:18:47 pm
Quote
What people seem to percieve as a major downfall of standards is often just this generation acting as they do and the older generations wrongly categorizing this behaviour as something to be frightened of and something  that needs to be stopped.

While there might be something in that, it's not the entire picture. Detailed research by social scientists over the past 50 years reveals some disturbing trends.

For instance, the once stable relationship of marriage has largely given way to single parenting, co-habiting and increasingly repetitious divorce strategies. Over the past 50 years, the one in eight births in England and Wales that were to mothers born outside the UK rose to one in five.  In Great Britain in 2007 the proportion of people living alone (12 per cent) was double that of 1971, in 2005 there were just under 284,000 marriages in the UK, around 27,000 fewer than in 2004, and 197,000 fewer than in 1972, when the number of marriages peaked at 480,000.

Over the last 20 years, the proportion of unmarried men and women aged under 60 cohabiting in Great Britain rose from 11 per cent of men and 13 per cent of women to 24 per cent and 25 per cent respectively, while one in ten men and one in four women forming a civil partnership in the UK in 2006 had been in a previous legal partnership, in nearly all cases a marriage.  The average age of a criminal in the UK is 19, so it's possible to infer a link between a destabilising society in marriage terms and an increase in crime and criminality. Perhaps the most worrying statistic, however, is that at March 2006 there were 32,100 children on child protection registers in the UK. Nearly half of all cases were due to neglect.

So society is changing in some very basic and objectively measurable ways, and it's not simply "the older generations wrongly categorizing this behaviour as something to be frightened of and something  that needs to be stopped."

Your laudable aim of stopping

Quote
people "milking" the benefit system (by) making them feel valuable and worthwhile members of society, who therefore would not want to take money from the pockets of their fellow citizens and who will then strive to go out and work for the greater good

fails to mention how this would work in practice, other than by increasing the minimum wage. However, there is also substantial evidence that many people set out to deliberately abuse the system to obtain tangible benefits they could never otherwise hope to get, even with a marked increase in the minimum wage.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2011, 10:48:15 am
[The way to stop people "milking" the benefit system is to make them feel valuable and worthwhile members of society, who therefore would not want to take money from the pockets of their fellow citizens and who will then strive to go out and work for the greater good.
You have to understand these people have no interest in working for a living. They are not decent people 'down on their luck', they believe people who work for a living are mugs and they also believe are entitled to get everything for nothing. I've met many of them in my time and they are all the same.
These "do gooders" have got to be joking, those people are just scum. The scum do not and do not want to make any contribution to society, all they want to do is take,take,take.
Do these "do gooders" think that it would be wrong for the Government to make any of the able bodied  people to work for their benefits in the way that the vast majority of decent people have to work for a living?  There are many charities crying out for volunteers and there are other jobs that could be done such as litter collecting etc.   so don't say that there is no work for the scum to do.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: brumbob on March 12, 2011, 11:01:14 am
The problem with that Hugo is that it could put already employed litter collectors out of work, then there is the cost of setting up and running another quango plus supervisor wages
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 12, 2011, 12:13:05 pm
[The way to stop people "milking" the benefit system is to make them feel valuable and worthwhile members of society, who therefore would not want to take money from the pockets of their fellow citizens and who will then strive to go out and work for the greater good.
You have to understand these people have no interest in working for a living. They are not decent people 'down on their luck', they believe people who work for a living are mugs and they also believe are entitled to get everything for nothing. I've met many of them in my time and they are all the same.
These "do gooders" have got to be joking, those people are just scum. The scum do not and do not want to make any contribution to society, all they want to do is take,take,take.
Do these "do gooders" think that it would be wrong for the Government to make any of the able bodied  people to work for their benefits in the way that the vast majority of decent people have to work for a living?  There are many charities crying out for volunteers and there are other jobs that could be done such as litter collecting etc.   so don't say that there is no work for the scum to do.

If you have ever seen what a mess the "community service" programme is, you'd know this is not possible.
You can't get non motivated people to work, in short of putting them in chains - I fear that's what some of you would actually like to see happen!! We talk of lowering of standards, but I've never seen such a lowered standard of attitudes towards basic human rights than some of the posts I've read on here. To be honest I would rather be a "do gooder" than a tyrant.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2011, 12:43:49 pm
Quote
If you have ever seen what a mess the "community service" programme is, you'd know this is not possible.
You can't get non motivated people to work, in short of putting them in chains - I fear that's what some of you would actually like to see happen!! We talk of lowering of standards, but I've never seen such a lowered standard of attitudes towards basic human rights than some of the posts I've read on here. To be honest I would rather be a "do gooder" than a tyrant.

I understand that the "community service" programme is in a mess but the majority of people in this country are hard working decent people. Do you think that any of these non motivated people who refuse to work should receive benefits that sometimes are well in excess of what anybody in employment receives for a hard weeks work?
 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2011, 12:52:28 pm
The problem with that Hugo is that it could put already employed litter collectors out of work, then there is the cost of setting up and running another quango plus supervisor wages

You're right of course Brumbob and Born2run is correct in the comments about the community service programme but something has to be done as the Government hasn't got a bottomless pit of money.
We are too soft with benefits for the undeserving minority but perhaps someone on here has got the answer to this problem.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 12, 2011, 12:53:44 pm
[If you have ever seen what a mess the "community service" programme is, you'd know this is not possible.
You can't get non motivated people to work, in short of putting them in chains - I fear that's what some of you would actually like to see happen!! We talk of lowering of standards, but I've never seen such a lowered standard of attitudes towards basic human rights than some of the posts I've read on here. To be honest I would rather be a "do gooder" than a tyrant.

I understand that the "community service" programme is in a mess but the majority of people in this country are hard working decent people. Do you think that any of these non motivated people who refuse to work should receive benefits that sometimes are well in excess of what anybody in employment receives for a hard weeks work?
 

Which is why you increase the minimum wage, have better working conditions for the low paid (I know some younger family members who have worked in big retail shops and I understand they get treated like rubbish, ussualy by power hungry but ill educated "managers")  So that the honest people who work have a better lifestyle than those on benefits (in fact I believe they do already, but it should be even more of a positive gap)

The alternative (as a lot of people on here, I suspect would like) is that you decrease benefits or even stop them altogether! Well if that happens I don't think these un-motivated troubled people will suddenly leap out of bed and go to work! They will get their money by other means, and I hope it's your house they'll be burgling rather than mine!!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2011, 01:31:23 pm
 Would it be fair to everyone if benefits were capped at a level equivelent to the average take home wage so that it would not be beneficially to those who refuse to work.   What do you think?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 12, 2011, 01:31:57 pm
Quote
Which is why you increase the minimum wage, have better working conditions for the low paid (I know some younger family members who have worked in big retail shops and I understand they get treated like rubbish, ussualy by power hungry but ill educated "managers")  So that the honest people who work have a better lifestyle than those on benefits (in fact I believe they do already, but it should be even more of a positive gap)

We're actually talking about two distinct groups here. There are those on benefits who - for one reason or another - simply cannot work, and I'm fairly certain no one on here is seriously advocating we throw the sick and infirm into the workhouse.

On the other hand , there is a growing but significant minority in the UK who do seek to defraud, to who do live lives in which their prime aim is to extract as much out of society as they can without giving anything back in return. It's this latter group that attracts condemnation  - some might argue rightly so - and research for years has indicated the 'vicious circle' mentality that means, fundamentally, we're allowing the gradual erosion of society to continue unabated through a lack of suitable positive action. 

The Chinese have long realised that population control is an essential ingredient in a developing economy, and they achieve this through a combination of legal missives and peer persuasion. But even China hasn't won the battle against those whose primary allegiance is to themselves and not society. With Western Society, it's a question of drawing a line. Trouble is, where is that line drawn?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 12, 2011, 01:36:05 pm
Quote
Would it be fair to everyone if benefits were capped at a level equivelent to the average take home wage so that it would not be beneficially to those who refuse to work

I'm fairly sure this is one of the proposals being considered by the government, Hugo.  I think the biggest problem is housing benefit, however.  In places like London's West End, it's costing millions a year to house relatively few families. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 12, 2011, 01:57:05 pm
Quote
Would it be fair to everyone if benefits were capped at a level equivelent to the average take home wage so that it would not be beneficially to those who refuse to work

I'm fairly sure this is one of the proposals being considered by the government, Hugo.  I think the biggest problem is housing benefit, however.  In places like London's West End, it's costing millions a year to house relatively few families. 

I think the sad fact is probably that industry is so bad - that for a family with three kids to bring up - minimum wages just isn't enough and therefore not an option
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 12, 2011, 04:32:05 pm
Especially after paying for the 42 inch telly, Sky subs, Mobile phones for all the family, the MPV, the Xbox, DVD subscriptions, the Spanish holiday, 3 computers, Broadband, designer clothes,  and everything else that today's modern family considers absolute essentials.   
 ¢¢##
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on March 12, 2011, 05:59:34 pm
I think the sad fact is probably that industry is so bad - that for a family with three kids to bring up - minimum wages just isn't enough and therefore not an option
I have to ask...why have three children then if you can't afford to bring them up properly?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on March 13, 2011, 04:13:49 am
I think the sad fact is probably that industry is so bad - that for a family with three kids to bring up - minimum wages just isn't enough and therefore not an option
I have to ask...why have three children then if you can't afford to bring them up properly?

I agree Dave.

It's always advisable to cover your Johnny Depp with a Trojan.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 13, 2011, 07:48:44 am
Looks like we are back to sterilisation, there are some who have children just for the child allowance  :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 13, 2011, 08:18:49 am
Quote
Looks like we are back to sterilisation, there are some who have children just for the child allowance

I'm not sure if it's child allowance per se, but there is compelling evidence - although principally anecdotal - that there is a trend for teenage girls to have children as this provides a route out of the parental home and into one of their own, as councils are obliged to provide accommodation - which translates into social housing - for parents with children.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on March 13, 2011, 11:06:13 am
Teenage pregnancy is at an all time low.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8531227.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8531227.stm)

Do you not think it's those claiming Incapacity/disability and housing benefit that are draining resources in this country.  More so than pregnant teenagers?

As for sterilisation I think they should concentrate more on the third world regarding this issue.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 13, 2011, 11:16:03 am
Incapacity benefit is a really hard one to judge, especially on mental health issues.
You also have alcohol and drug dependencies to contend with.

As I've said previously, its really not a major problem at all. It's the right wing media badgering gullable people who are making this a mountain out of a molehill.

Spain has an unemployment rate of almost 20% - most other european countries are far higher than us
Britain is under 8% The highest it's ever been was back in the 80s under another Tory government which saw us hit almost 12%
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 13, 2011, 11:26:40 am
Quote
Teenage pregnancy is at an all time low.

My reading of the graph and the information is that teenage pregnancy has lessened by 4% but still is extremely high but has still been rising inexorably for the past 20 years
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 13, 2011, 11:31:59 am
Quote
Teenage pregnancy is at an all time low.

My reading of the graph and the information is that teenage pregnancy has lessened by 4% but still is extremely high but has still been rising inexorably for the past 20 years

Are we looking at the same graph?
It's lower now than it was in 1990.
It's the over 40s line with the massive increase.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on March 13, 2011, 11:35:14 am
The over 40's are surely paying for their own kids though aren't they?  They are usually proffessionals who have decided to have children later.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 13, 2011, 11:45:01 am
Quote
Quote
My reading of the graph and the information is that teenage pregnancy has lessened by 4% but still is extremely high but has still been rising inexorably for the past 20 years

Are we looking at the same graph?
It's lower now than it was in 1990.
It's the over 40s line with the massive increase

You're quite right;  grovelling apologies, Pen  :weeping:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on March 13, 2011, 11:47:36 am
No problem Ian.....................  :P
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on March 13, 2011, 06:17:58 pm
Quote
If you have ever seen what a mess the "community service" programme is, you'd know this is not possible.
You can't get non motivated people to work, in short of putting them in chains - I fear that's what some of you would actually like to see happen!! We talk of lowering of standards, but I've never seen such a lowered standard of attitudes towards basic human rights than some of the posts I've read on here. To be honest I would rather be a "do gooder" than a tyrant.

I understand that the "community service" programme is in a mess but the majority of people in this country are hard working decent people. Do you think that any of these non motivated people who refuse to work should receive benefits that sometimes are well in excess of what anybody in employment receives for a hard weeks work?
 

Good point. I've spoken to people who receive benefits in Llandudno.

The main comment they said was: "There's nothing around here job-wise anymore"

However, the deciding factor for them to stay on benefits, was that if they were to go out and find a job locally, which would more than likely be minimum wage, they would bring home less money than if they were to stay on benefits.

Catch 22.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 13, 2011, 07:00:21 pm
But isn't it true to say that the people who have got off their A*** and looked further afield have managed to obtain decent jobs and have benefitted from a much better standard of living?   

There was nothing here for my kids and those of a lot of my friends, but having left the area and gone in search of a career, they have all made a success of their lives so far.    ZXZ   They are all much better off than living on benefits.

Nick Clegg was commenting at the Lib-Dem conference that they support the "Alarm Clock brigade" - those willing to get up, get out and get on!
 ¢¢##
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 13, 2011, 07:06:50 pm
Anyone who believes that unemloyment in Britain is around the 8% level is completely out of touch with reality.
The 8% refers to those claiming jobseekers allowance.
There are also a hidden army of unemployed people who are not claiming, or are 'unable' to work.
Plus there are vast amounts of people not working and claiming ''other'' types of benefits.
On top of that there are people I know personally who have been declared ''Dormant''

This means that the JobCentre have not found any work for them in TWO YEARS, and now they are permitted to NOT attend the jobcentre, they will still recieve the same money ... but they are no longer counted in the unemployed total.

On top of ALL of this, there are millions in part-time or temporary employment... because thats all there is.
Don't forget the several hundred thousand people who are awaiting redundancy in the next few months.

The REAL unemployment total is nearer 40% of those who COULD work .... if only the government dared to let us know the truth.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on March 13, 2011, 07:07:09 pm
Spain has an unemployment rate of almost 20% - most other european countries are far higher than us
Britain is under 8% The highest it's ever been was back in the 80s under another Tory government which saw us hit almost 12%
8%! That's a work of fiction. There are 8 million people in this country of working age that do not work. It's the rest of us that pays for them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 13, 2011, 07:10:12 pm
It seems that we agree Dave .... those who don't have thier heads in the sand do!

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 13, 2011, 07:48:14 pm
I often wonder which of the government's categories I come under? not working, nor looking to, not claiming anything at all, living off my investments, sort of retired, but well below buspass age, I need to know for the census form  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: brumbob on March 13, 2011, 08:08:06 pm
tramp?


 _))*

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 13, 2011, 08:12:11 pm
A few years ago you would have been refered to as a GENTLEMAN!    And there ain't nowt wrong with that!   ZXZ
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 13, 2011, 08:15:50 pm
tramp?


 _))*




 L0L L0L I might put that one down!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on March 13, 2011, 10:34:19 pm
tramp?


 _))*




 L0L L0L I might put that one down!

 _))*
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Quiggs on March 13, 2011, 11:41:53 pm
My father refered to tramps as 'Milestone Inspectors' Might sound better on the Census Form.   WWW 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: brumbob on March 14, 2011, 05:51:13 pm
Serial benefits dad fathers his 11th child – even though he's 'too sick' to work

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366073/Serial-dad-Keith-Macdonald-fathers-11th-child-16.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366073/Serial-dad-Keith-Macdonald-fathers-11th-child-16.html)

a pair of garden shears will stop this dosser
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on March 14, 2011, 06:31:08 pm
Serial benefits dad fathers his 11th child – even though he's 'too sick' to work

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366073/Serial-dad-Keith-Macdonald-fathers-11th-child-16.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366073/Serial-dad-Keith-Macdonald-fathers-11th-child-16.html)

a pair of garden shears will stop this dosser

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9362000/9362407.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9362000/9362407.stm)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2011, 08:07:13 pm
Utter vermin...... sorry Born2Run .... I see no hope for scum like that, and all they do is create more of the same...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 14, 2011, 08:53:43 pm
No need to apologise to me ;D
I'm not the spokesman for the dispossessed or anything!
But I do have faith in people - and I think that no matter what background or how bad your parents are you can still achieve great things.

Who's to say that one of this guy's eleven kids won't be an amazing and valuable member of society?
Maybe even a prime minister or brilliant scientist, bit unfair to right them off already!
God knows there are many people from affluent and wealthy backgrounds who are wastes of space! Look at Pete Doherty, Peaches Geldof or that pillock Prince Andrew as examples.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 14, 2011, 09:04:47 pm
Truly an excellent sentiment.  However, one out of 11 is only 9%  and we pick up the tab for the other 91%.

Maybe a resrtiction on family size would be a good idea!   This would create many benefits to society and the Planet in general.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2011, 09:33:13 pm
Yorkies maths is undeniable... but I wasn't actually meaning the kids.

I meant HIM.  The Father.

Its highly unlikely that the kids will amount to anything, (everything is stacked against them) but I wish them well, the poor little mites.
I just object to paying for them, thats all.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 14, 2011, 09:54:11 pm
time to stop child allowance beyond say 2 offspring, that should stop it. If they can't provide for them they shouldn't have the kids and expect everyone else to pay for them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 14, 2011, 10:16:21 pm
time to stop child allowance beyond say 2 offspring, that should stop it. If they can't provide for them they shouldn't have the kids and expect everyone else to pay for them.

Child benefit is only £13 a week after the first child - We're not talking massive $$$$ here!
So it's not really going to make much of a difference.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2011, 10:45:48 pm
Yeah....but its MY thirteen quid..... and its multiplied by several million kids.... increasingly non-British too !

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: brumbob on March 14, 2011, 10:53:07 pm
but it's not just child Benefit, it's all the other add ons like free school meals, free nursery care, extra Housing Benefit & Council Tax Benefit, the more kids the more you get etc etc
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2011, 11:19:33 pm
....and I am SICK of it.    :puke2: :puke2: :puke2:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 15, 2011, 07:16:03 am
but it's not just child Benefit, it's all the other add ons like free school meals, free nursery care, extra Housing Benefit & Council Tax Benefit, the more kids the more you get etc etc

seems to me that if they use more services then they should pay more! Why should the rest of us pay for them to be breeding machines?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 15, 2011, 07:21:58 am
Who's to say that one of this guy's eleven kids won't be an amazing and valuable member of society?

more likely that all 11 will be a pain in the backside where they live and that all 11 will also produce 11 kids each and so it goes on......
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 15, 2011, 08:02:22 am
Quote
But I do have faith in people - and I think that no matter what background or how bad your parents are you can still achieve great things.

I agree with that sentiment. And it's amazing how children from apparently dreadful backgrounds can and do go on to become productive and valued members of society. Some children manage to do well despite their upbringing, but sadly, the consequences of bad parenting all too often result in the child adopting that lifestyle.  In a sense, we have the DFM to blame for hearing a lot about those who don't do well and virtually nothing about those who do; after all, there's not a lot of news value in reporting the positive contributions made by those who don't steal, those who always pay their taxes, those who work hard and those who don't claim benefits.

And it's worth remembering that the amount paid out in benefits is still dwarfed by the amount owed by those who avoid and evade tax....
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on March 15, 2011, 08:13:52 am
And it's worth remembering that the amount paid out in benefits is still dwarfed by the amount owed by those who avoid and evade tax....
I don't think there's many people in the world who pay every penny of tax that they're supposed to. It should also be pointed out that avoiding tax is perfectly legal. Even after Cameron's cuts, the Benefits system is still way out of control:

"According to an official Treasury forecast, benefits will cost £170.9 billion in 2010/11. That is equal to what the Government will spend on the NHS, schools and universities combined."
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 15, 2011, 11:23:58 am
One very small consolation is that all the money paid in benefits will be spent by the recipients on high tax items such as fags, booze    Z**  and luxury goods so a good percentage will get back into the system.  The shopkeepers who profit from the purchases will also pay tax as will the people that they spend their money with, so all in all, the overall burden on us tax payers is reduced.    ZXZ

Or is all that just wishful thinking and poor mathematics?     L0L
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Llechwedd on March 15, 2011, 11:42:57 am
Oh god I'm surrounded by fascists!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 15, 2011, 11:55:57 am
Sorry to disappoint you - I am the last person to be a Fascist and I object to being refered to as one!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 15, 2011, 02:05:39 pm
Oh god I'm surrounded by fascists!

not really, just some of us are sick of some people who take the p...  by extremely milking the system. I am sure that when the welfare state was set up it was with the best of intentions, however years later some abused the system and many more jumped on the gravy train, now the gravy is running out! If that means you think I'm a fascist, then thats your opinion, I'm not bothered, I just think it cannot go on like this.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 15, 2011, 02:16:20 pm
These people also take great satisfaction in boasting in the Media about their "abuse" of the Welfare State.  Take the recent chap and his female child bearing machine who is not satisfied with 9 children but would like another half dozen or so.

Child benefit should STOP after the second child irrespective of who you are!   This would make those irresponsible breeding machines who choose to live on the backs of others think twice about producing litters like the bitches some of them appear to be.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 15, 2011, 10:48:04 pm
Well, as the instigator of this topic, I have to say that it was a 'slow burner'
But now, due to dwindling resources, and a worsening economic situation, it seems to be gathering pace.

I have always been averse to forking out my 'hard-earned' to those who just don't fancy working.
Now it seems that government and sectors of society have started seeing things my way.  (well Fest usually knows best, it just takes a while some times)

Like I have always said, if Benefits can no longer be afforded, then a percentage will get a job (if they can find one)  another percentage will struggle on with even less, another percentage will turn to crime to get what they have been used to having.
It just seems odd to me that the Govt are cutting the numbers of Police officers at a time when they will be needed like never before.

 

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: brumbob on March 15, 2011, 11:47:47 pm
Afghan asylum seeker who lived in £1.2million house faces jail over £30,000 benefit fraud

£3,000 a week housing benefit  :o

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366570/Afghan-asylum-seeker-lived-1-2million-house-faces-jail-30-000-benefit-fraud.html#ixzz1GiO5Wtch (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366570/Afghan-asylum-seeker-lived-1-2million-house-faces-jail-30-000-benefit-fraud.html#ixzz1GiO5Wtch)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 16, 2011, 12:51:37 pm
Afghan asylum seeker who lived in £1.2million house faces jail over £30,000 benefit fraud

£3,000 a week housing benefit  :o

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366570/Afghan-asylum-seeker-lived-1-2million-house-faces-jail-30-000-benefit-fraud.html#ixzz1GiO5Wtch (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366570/Afghan-asylum-seeker-lived-1-2million-house-faces-jail-30-000-benefit-fraud.html#ixzz1GiO5Wtch)

That's just disgusting and it's worse that those Somalis that were living in a £2.1 million house in Kensington because they were only getting £8000.00 per month in housing benefits.  That's indefensible, a crime has been committed so a custodial sentance must  be considered as should deportation.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 17, 2011, 08:11:36 am
I don't think they can be seen to back down on (Housing benefit cap) now, and most people support the measure, I suspect.

They've backed down on it.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on March 17, 2011, 08:31:17 am
I don't think they can be seen to back down on (Housing benefit cap) now, and most people support the measure, I suspect.

They've backed down on it.
I've looked through the newspapers and cant see anything that indicates that?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on March 17, 2011, 04:50:27 pm
Oh god I'm surrounded by fascists!

ahem.....

Are you banding me in with that claim? One of the few people on topic who has actually stuck up for the unemployed.
Are are you just grouping us all together like, a, erm.........facist would do?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 17, 2011, 05:44:31 pm
Quote
Quote
They've backed down on it.
I've looked through the newspapers and cant see anything that indicates that?

I'll look it out for you.  It was announced quietly abut a month ago - I've been meaning to post about it.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 17, 2011, 05:51:42 pm
It's here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/feb/17/nick-clegg-housing-benefit-cut-dropped) and here (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/flipflop-dave-uturns-threaten-to-undermine-camerons-image-2219976.html)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on March 17, 2011, 06:19:49 pm
"The government has dropped plans to impose a 10% cut in housing benefit on anyone unemployed for more than a year after a last-minute intervention by Nick Clegg."
That's not quite the same thing. The introduction of the cap on Housing Benefit is still going ahead.  :)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on March 18, 2011, 07:46:01 am
Quote
That's not quite the same thing. The introduction of the cap on Housing Benefit is still going ahead.

Betcha it doesn't  ;D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on March 18, 2011, 08:50:16 am
We'll see....  >>>
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 18, 2011, 12:24:54 pm
Oh god I'm surrounded by fascists!

ahem.....

Are you banding me in with that claim? One of the few people on topic who has actually stuck up for the unemployed.
Are are you just grouping us all together like, a, erm.........facist would do?  :laugh:

These are difficult times that we live in and now many hardworking people find themselves in unemployment through no fault of their own.  I don't think that anyone on the forum is suggesting that all unemployed people are the same. it is like everything else in society, the  small minority spoil it for the remainder.
If you think that it is ok for able bodied people to not want to work and refuse to work and think that it is their human right to expect the state to maintain them in benefits for the rest of their life, which you appear to be suggesting then you are entitled to that opinion.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 18, 2011, 02:24:08 pm
I would love a little job doing 10 to 12 hours a couple of days a week, but they just ain't out there.  Unless, of course, someone knows different and can point me in the right direction.   Or point someone needing help in my direction.   I've done my bit for volunteering so am now seeking a pityful sum for my efforts to supplement my meagre pension(s).     $thanx$,  a 1000 x  $thanx$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: brumbob on March 18, 2011, 02:51:21 pm
Fancy doing a baccy run to France  :laugh:
just joking

part time jobs are hard to get especially now the minimum rate is £5.93 an hour
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2011, 12:17:32 pm
I would love a little job doing 10 to 12 hours a couple of days a week, but they just ain't out there.  Unless, of course, someone knows different and can point me in the right direction.   Or point someone needing help in my direction.   I've done my bit for volunteering so am now seeking a pityful sum for my efforts to supplement my meagre pension(s).     $thanx$,  a 1000 x  $thanx$

I heard that there's a part time job going in Simon Bakers.  Quite well paid and no previous experience necessary just taking Hush Puppies for a walk!    :)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: suepp on March 20, 2011, 12:22:14 pm
social care agencies often need staff for contracts of a few hours per week supporting people in social activities
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on March 20, 2011, 12:27:43 pm
I would love a little job doing 10 to 12 hours a couple of days a week, but they just ain't out there.  Unless, of course, someone knows different and can point me in the right direction.   Or point someone needing help in my direction.   I've done my bit for volunteering so am now seeking a pityful sum for my efforts to supplement my meagre pension(s).     $thanx$,  a 1000 x  $thanx$

I heard that there's a part time job going in Simon Bakers.  Quite well paid and no previous experience necessary just taking Hush Puppies for a walk!    :)

Just the sort of well heeled job I could put my sole into which could lead me to other (p)laces.  I'll nip by and have a bow-wow with Jeff next time I'm passing.     _))*
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2011, 05:53:26 pm
Nice one Yorkie   :laugh:     I'll put a good word in for you when I next see Geoff and you might get that job after all.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 21, 2011, 01:40:36 pm
I'm going to have to get a life as I was watching Jeremy Kyle again!      :o     There was a 20 year old lad who had, had a drinking problem but thanks to his fiancee he had overcome this and seemed to be a decent bloke who had changed his life around.
He was on the show because his mother had chosen her criminal husband over him and she had given him away at birth and she had not seen him since and he wanted answers to some questions so he could move on with his life.
His birth mother came on and explained that she was  only 19 when she had him and couldn't cope with the baby so yes she did choose to stay with her husband and gave the baby to her sister in law.
Prompted by Jeremy, he then asked her the question of whether he had any brothers and sisters and she refused to say, saying that she would tell him in private.
Jeremy then revealed that she had 13 further children and ALL of them had been given away at birth.  Now this scumbag of a mother  (can I say that for fear of offending do gooders and Human rightists? ) had had 14 children and had given them all away. It can't be fair in a decent society and I bet that the husband and wife didn't work and I'm 100% positive that they didn't contribute anything to the 14 kids upbringing.         :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 21, 2011, 01:45:51 pm
I've only ever seen the odd couple of minutes of any Jeremy Kyle programme, it always seems like the same family on every programme!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on March 21, 2011, 03:25:00 pm
You're very wise not watching the programme because it doesn't do the blood pressure much good watching and listening to the type that go on it.
I'm glad the Summer's coming and I'll be out more often,     :)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on March 21, 2011, 08:50:11 pm
I have watched numerous episodes of Jeremy Kyle... always depressing.
Very much like a Wednesday afternoon in Rhyl.

In fact Rhyl IS Jeremy Kyle's waiting room....
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 10, 2011, 10:40:50 am
Some statistics concerning Rhyl - is there no more damming indictment of the failure of the Welfare State and Government over several decades?

46.2% of people living in Rhyl West were found to have literacy skills below the most basic level required to be able to function satisfactorily in everyday life.

1,100 households in Rhyl West are claiming benefits – that’s a higher proportion of people on benefits than anywhere else in England and Wales – save for Rochdale.


http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/05/10/shocking-deprivation-levels-revealed-in-rhyl-55578-28663942/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/05/10/shocking-deprivation-levels-revealed-in-rhyl-55578-28663942/)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on May 10, 2011, 12:04:02 pm
Quote
is there no more damming indictment of the failure of the Welfare State and Government over several decades?

That's debatable.  First, I might agree it's a failure of Government, because the state school system is a direct product of government and it's reasonable, therefore,  to assume a correlation between the quality of state education and the literacy level of adults. But you're conflating education and social service, and I think it's very difficult to do that with any certainty, since they are very different commodities. For instance, there's a wealth of evidence which suggests those who most need social care interventions are those who spend a disproportionate amount of time dodging them. 

On the education front, something clearly needs to be done, but what? Folks often post that this or that has failed, but they often find it difficult to identify strategies that might work. No easy answers, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on May 10, 2011, 04:45:19 pm
If you're from Rhyl I don't see how there's any goal in learning to read and getting a job. As you'll actually be better off staying at home on benefits. All the pubs in Rhyl are choc a block in the afternoons - so there's plenty of £££ floating about. Much of it I'd guess gained illegaly as well as the milking of benefits.

There's only one answer!!! Put up the minimum wage $good$
£8 an hour at least is fair.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 10, 2011, 05:14:40 pm
There's only one answer!!! Put up the minimum wage $good$
£8 an hour at least is fair.
But would you be happy to see all the prices rise so that the extra wage expense could be paid for?

As for the people in Rhyl, maybe they should not be given the choice of staying home on benefits? The rest of us manage to find a job, after all.   ;)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on May 10, 2011, 07:29:37 pm
The area was supposed to have been regenerated three years ago but the WAG withdrew citing "lack of local support".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_east/7545941.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_east/7545941.stm)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 10, 2011, 07:32:28 pm
There's only one answer!!! Put up the minimum wage $good$
£8 an hour at least is fair.

even more jobs would go abroad sadly
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 10, 2011, 07:48:49 pm
The area was supposed to have been regenerated three years ago but the WAG withdrew citing "lack of local support".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_east/7545941.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_east/7545941.stm)
That was just one of the many WAG schemes running in Rhyl; Communities First has not been one of their most successful schemes, although the one on Maesgeirchen, Bangor, has done a good job.

WAG has spent a lot of money in Rhyl over the past few years, and large parts of it have improved to some degree. The problem is that a large part of the population in areas such as Rhyl West consist of people from outside the area. In effect, Rhyl, has been used as a dumping ground for the unwanted of north west England. In turn, their poor behaviour has pushed the 'decent' people out of the area, creating a ghetto with all the problems mentioned in the original press report. Radial action would need to be taken to really solve the problems, anything else is just window dressing.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on May 10, 2011, 08:50:34 pm
In effect, Rhyl, has been used as a dumping ground for the unwanted of north west England. In turn, their poor behaviour has pushed the 'decent' people out of the area, creating a ghetto with all the problems mentioned in the original press report.

You're saying that Merseyside & Greater Manchester councils have dumped their tenants in North Wales?

Or did a large proportion of Rhyl West residents arrive on their own accord?

Another article from three years ago:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2008/03/18/rhyl-west-is-second-worst-in-for-benefits-55578-20638539/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2008/03/18/rhyl-west-is-second-worst-in-for-benefits-55578-20638539/)

In Rhyl West’s area one, there are 610 jobless on benefits out of 895 of working age – 68% of the population.

Nothing seems to have changed.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on May 10, 2011, 11:39:32 pm
That's one thing about Maes G there is a real sense of community spirit there.  Everybody knows and looks out for each other.  As I said on an earlier post Maes G is virtually crime free for this reason.  I have been going to Maes G since the 80s and so have seen the difference and what the Communities First grants etc have achieved.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on May 11, 2011, 12:02:46 am
That's one thing about Maes G there is a real sense of community spirit there.  Everybody knows and looks out for each other.  As I said on an earlier post Maes G is virtually crime free for this reason.  I have been going to Maes G since the 80s and so have seen the difference and what the Communities First grants etc have achieved.

I have found that the vast majority of Welsh people are community spirited, and very kind people in general.
But, the proportion of English people who are of that type  (particularly in the North and North West of England) is not as high.
Its about upbringing I believe.

This might sound contraversial to some, but it is MY experience.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on May 11, 2011, 12:10:59 am
That's one thing about Maes G there is a real sense of community spirit there.  Everybody knows and looks out for each other.  As I said on an earlier post Maes G is virtually crime free for this reason.  I have been going to Maes G since the 80s and so have seen the difference and what the Communities First grants etc have achieved.

The Marchog ward, which covers the Maesgeirchen area, has 117 claimants of the benefit, the same number as the Peblig ward in Caernarfon.

http://www.theonlinemail.co.uk/bangor-and-anglesey-news/where-i-live/bangor-news/2011/04/20/bangor-ward-has-gwynedd-s-joint-highest-dole-claimants-66580-28547701/ (http://www.theonlinemail.co.uk/bangor-and-anglesey-news/where-i-live/bangor-news/2011/04/20/bangor-ward-has-gwynedd-s-joint-highest-dole-claimants-66580-28547701/)

However, Maes G is one of North Wales' largest housing estates with aprox 4,000 residents.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on May 11, 2011, 12:31:37 am
That's one thing about Maes G there is a real sense of community spirit there.  Everybody knows and looks out for each other.  As I said on an earlier post Maes G is virtually crime free for this reason.  I have been going to Maes G since the 80s and so have seen the difference and what the Communities First grants etc have achieved.

I have found that the vast majority of Welsh people are community spirited, and very kind people in general.
But, the proportion of English people who are of that type  (particularly in the North and North West of England) is not as high.
Its about upbringing I believe.

This might sound contraversial to some, but it is MY experience.

I think maybe that the communities in Wales, especially in the north, are smaller, so everyone knows each other, resulting in more of a community spirit.

Large cities do tend to have an anonymous feeling when residing in them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on May 11, 2011, 04:44:13 pm
There's only one answer!!! Put up the minimum wage $good$
£8 an hour at least is fair.
But would you be happy to see all the prices rise so that the extra wage expense could be paid for?

As for the people in Rhyl, maybe they should not be given the choice of staying home on benefits? The rest of us manage to find a job, after all.   ;)

The rest of us are healthy individuals who can read/write and don't have mental health or addiction problems.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 11, 2011, 04:49:30 pm
But they can still manage to get to the pub though?  :P
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on May 11, 2011, 05:10:37 pm

The rest of us are healthy individuals who can read/write and don't have mental health or addiction problems.

Unfortunately - No!  But once there was a wonderful employer of people with mental problems or physical difficulties and operated under the name of Remploy.   Today they have a slightly different role by using their expertise to get placements for such people in the normal environment.  There are many partners who work with Remploy, such as ASDA, who help where they can to give employment to these less fortunate people.

"Remploy's purpose is to increase the employment opportunities of disabled people and those who experience complex barriers to work.  We have an expanding network of town and city centre branches and a comprehensive range of tailored support services provided through them. Developing partnerships with employers is key to delivering success, ensuring we place the right people in the right roles."
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: hollins on May 12, 2011, 08:50:03 am
When I saw the photos recently of the disused Hotpoint factory on the Llandudno  junction thread it brought back some memories of my own.
I was employed as a  designer in the textile industry for 25 years. I was made redundant when all the manufacturing was moved to India.
I think it is so sad that so many manufacturing jobs have been lost. People love to go shopping but they do not seem to mind where the product was made.
The company I worked for employed many people who had unique skills and all these were lost.
Many employees were forced to take a job in a “shed” or a supermarket unable to use their well earned experience any longer.
Some skilled workers were sent to India to show them over there how to make the products only to be made redundant at a later date..
They took great pride in making  the products and it is difficult to find another job with that amount of job satisfaction these days.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 12, 2011, 09:18:25 am
People love to go shopping but they do not seem to mind where the product was made.
That's it in a nutshell. People expect to be able to buy everything cheaply (anything else is regarded as a 'ripoff' apparently), yet bemoan the death of British manufacturing. They can't have it both!
Title: I could not believe
Post by: crd on May 13, 2011, 08:45:40 pm
I could not believe some of the comments while Reading this blog!!
It suggest to me that people would be happy to see anybody they think that are a drain on the system be removed, maybe pensioners living longer should be sent to the gas chambers, anybody claiming benefits could be sent to the salt mines, we could have Euthanasia programs for people with mental health problems, children with any deformity or learning disability could join the pensioners on the train to the gas chambers.
All the English be given £40 and shipped out of Wales, any gypsies or immigrants sent to a penal colony on the island of Anglesey.
This would solve our monetary shortfall in one fell swoop, thus paving the way for us to remove most of the swindling politicians, local council officials that are robbing the system blind.
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: Trojan on May 13, 2011, 08:59:05 pm
 $3towns$




 _))*
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: Paddy on May 13, 2011, 09:10:33 pm
Welcome to the forum CRD!
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: crd on May 13, 2011, 09:17:01 pm
Thank you paddy

(http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae95/dogsnob1/David.png)
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: TheMedz on May 13, 2011, 09:54:36 pm
Not that I'm going anywhere thank you I really rather like it round here but £40 - it would cost me more than that in petrol or rail fare  to get back into England.
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: DaveR on May 13, 2011, 10:01:54 pm
Yes, you'd have to offer more than £40, I think....
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: Fester on May 13, 2011, 10:18:30 pm
Welcome to the Forum CND, or whatever your name is....

I will leave Wales for £40, a flask of soup, a BIG pack of sandwiches,   and a life-long free ticket to all Disney theme-parks.

Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: Paddy on May 13, 2011, 10:22:40 pm
I could get four in my taxi for £40 each!
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 13, 2011, 10:53:08 pm
I could not believe some of the comments while Reading this blog!!
It suggest to me that people would be happy to see anybody they think that are a drain on the system be removed, maybe pensioners living longer should be sent to the gas chambers, anybody claiming benefits could be sent to the salt mines, we could have Euthanasia programs for people with mental health problems, children with any deformity or learning disability could join the pensioners on the train to the gas chambers.
All the English be given £40 and shipped out of Wales, any gypsies or immigrants sent to a penal colony on the island of Anglesey.
This would solve our monetary shortfall in one fell swoop, thus paving the way for us to remove most of the swindling politicians, local council officials that are robbing the system blind.



All sounds very reasonable apart from  ' All the English be given £40 and shipped out of Wales'  L0L  Welcome anyway  ;D
you forgot to mention selling gollies on the pier  _))*
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: crd on May 14, 2011, 09:46:35 am
Don’t worry all immigrants will be ok Paddy has done a shady deal with George, free travel to there homeland
(http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae95/dogsnob1/paddystaxiMediumSmall.png)
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: crd on May 14, 2011, 09:54:35 am
Welcome to the Forum CND, or whatever your name is....

I will leave Wales for £40, a flask of soup, a BIG pack of sandwiches,   and a life-long free ticket to all Disney theme-parks.

My name is immaterial uncle fester anonymity is part of forum life it gives spineless peeps a voice
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: crd on May 14, 2011, 10:04:00 am
Yes, you'd have to offer more than £40, I think....

So you are one of the English who has decided to Grace our county with his self importance,
Enjoying the beauty and tranquility but not really fitting in but more suited to apartheid in South Africa
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on May 14, 2011, 10:20:53 am
Welcome to the forum CRD. 
It's always a pleasure to welcome another friendly forum member, I take it you are a fellow Welshman? 
Title: Re: I could not believe
Post by: DaveR on May 14, 2011, 10:34:48 am
Yes, you'd have to offer more than £40, I think....

So you are one of the English who has decided to Grace our county with his self importance,
Enjoying the beauty and tranquility but not really fitting in but more suited to apartheid in South Africa

Sorry to disappoint but I was born in St. Asaph 42 years ago and have lived here all my life. If you'd taken the time to read some of the posts on this Forum instead of just running your mouth, you would have learnt that i am one of the biggest defenders of Welsh Culture and the Language on here.

 $walesflag$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: crd on May 14, 2011, 10:49:43 am
Dave
Please take my comments in a light hearted way I am not here to shout my mouth off or offend anybody! Except Muslims, all supporters of any political parties, religious do gooders
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on May 14, 2011, 10:54:55 am
i am one of the biggest defenders of Welsh Culture and the Language on here.


...........and I'll be another one.   :D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on May 14, 2011, 05:27:46 pm
i am one of the biggest defenders of Welsh Culture and the Language on here.


...........and I'll be another one.   :D

A fi hefyd     $walesflag$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on May 14, 2011, 06:57:10 pm
CRD !!
I was born in Bradford, over 46 years ago... so should I be offended?  (Being probably Muslim  L0L)

Plus...there is no one on this Forum more self-important than me... so please give me my £40 without delay!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on May 15, 2011, 02:08:05 pm
£40.OO seems a bit cheap really when the UK Government gives £500.00 plus to illegal immigrants who want to return to their home country.
Apparently it is within their human rights and in accordance with the present system etc etc to claim it again if they return again illegally to the UK!       :o
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: crd on May 15, 2011, 03:16:47 pm
£40.OO seems a bit cheap really when the UK Government gives £500.00 plus to illegal immigrants who want to return to their home country.
Apparently it is within their human rights and in accordance with the present system etc etc to claim it again if they return again illegally to the UK!       :o

That’s a disgrace Hugo £500 when is any UK Government going to have the guts to stand up and be counted, we could take a few lessons from France.
I know that will not be popular with the pub landlord but if they don’t act now it will be too late
A bit like Mr. Squires ranting on every week about bedsit land he was in the position to nip it in the bud when he was director of environmental health, saying this he is a nice bloke doing a good job for the residence of Old Colwyn
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on May 15, 2011, 04:36:48 pm
Sorry to rub it in but I think £500.00 is the minimum that they can  have as I have heard of an amount of £3K being mentioned.    :o
What I can't understand is that the onus is on the UK Border Force to prove who the person is, surely it should be on the person arrested to prove who they are and where they are from!    ???
If the UK Border Force can't prove who the person is then that person is released with certain conditions attached such as reporting to the local Police on a weekly basis.
It's not rocket science but that illegal is going to abscond and that is what they do, so they have to chase the person again and if caught repeat the same procedure,     :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on May 15, 2011, 05:53:00 pm
I'm confused now CND?
I thought earlier in this topic, you were criticising many views you had seen on here, which were aimed at geting rid of those who were a drain on our system?

Now you seem to go even further than some of us did?

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on May 22, 2011, 01:32:52 am
According to this BBC NEWS article ,  The Youth unemployment rate in Spain is running at 45%

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13481592 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13481592)

Its a catastrophe.  

If this is true, then surely the rise of Nationalistic and Right Wing movements is imminent?

After all, there are many historical precedents for this...

What government could change its archaic way of thinking, to avert this inevitable problem...  I ask, what can be done?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on May 22, 2011, 09:01:06 am
Quote
If this is true, then surely the rise of Nationalistic and Right Wing movements is imminent?  After all, there are many historical precedents for this...

That exact thought crossed my mind as the pictures unfolded on the Beeb's news.  A lot is going to depend on how the international community manages what follows, but my thought is that when living standards plummet and youth unemployment rises rapidly, trouble inevitably ensues.  Hitler faced a very similar problem and solved it through a massive, government-funded construction programme and expansion of the armed forces, following a similar rise in right-wing performance.  
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 22, 2011, 09:26:26 am
After reading Fester's post, i was wondering if it would not be better for each unemployed youth to be assigned to a small business within Spain and they would 'earn' their benefit by working within that business, whilst at the same time learning some new skills, making new friends and providing the business owner with some free assistance.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on May 22, 2011, 06:15:25 pm
After reading Fester's post, i was wondering if it would not be better for each unemployed youth to be assigned to a small business within Spain and they would 'earn' their benefit by working within that business, whilst at the same time learning some new skills, making new friends and providing the business owner with some free assistance.

The British Government tried that in the early 1980's, with the YTS - Youth Training Scheme.

£23.50 per week paid by the Government and placed into a local business in a "work experience scheme" that lasted six months.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2011, 11:05:23 am
I remember the scheme in the 80's and some at the time complained that it was just a means of getting cheap labour for the employers.   It did however enable young people to obtain work experience and obtain a structured and worthwhile way of life and in some cases it also let to them having permanent employment.
If you are going to pay people benefits for doing nothing then surely an incentive to have some work experience would be beneficial to everyone.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2011, 04:17:51 pm
I just cannot understand our immigration policy. It's said that we need the immigrants to boost our economy and I can go along with that providing it is not at the expense of jobs that could be done by the people of the UK.
What I cannot understand also  is why any type of benefit should be paid to them.  Are they here to work and support themselves financially or are they taking advantage of our benefit system?
If no benefits were paid would they then be so keen to come here and bring their families and dependants with them?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SDQ on May 31, 2011, 11:15:04 pm
For anyone who is interested.
It appears the benefits situation in Rhyl has hit the BBC radar. Next Monday's Panorama visits the town to report on the situation & speak to some of the unemployed to hear their story. Could be quite interesting.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on June 01, 2011, 08:39:07 am
Must keep an eye out for that.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on June 01, 2011, 02:35:16 pm
Just finished reading an article in the Daily Mirror about a 20 year old girl on benefits who smoked 3500 cigarettes during her pregnancy and insists that it did the baby good!
She also said " I love having something to do  roll a fag,smoke the fag, watch TV"   
Surprise,surprise, but WORK wasn't mentioned at all. It's one four letter word that they never repeat, perhaps it's too offensive to them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 01, 2011, 03:01:03 pm
Must keep an eye out for that.

That reminds of a joke I heard recently.

A man is dining in a fancy restaurant and there is a gorgeous redhead sitting at the next table. He has been checking her out since he sat down, but lacks the nerve to talk with her.

Suddenly she sneezes, and her glass eye comes flying out of its socket toward the man. He reflexively reaches out, grabs it out of the air, and hands it back.

'Oh my, I am so sorry,' the woman says as she pops her eye back in place...

'Let me buy your dinner to make it up to you,' she says.

They enjoy a wonderful dinner together, and afterwards they go to the theatre followed by drinks. They talk, they laugh, she shares her deepest dreams and he shares his.. She listens.

After paying for everything, she asks him if he would like to come to her place for a nightcap and stay for breakfast. They had a wonderful, wonderful time.

The next morning, she cooks a gourmet meal with all the trimmings. The guy is amazed. Everything had been SO incredible! 'You know,' he said, 'you are the perfect woman. Are you this nice to every guy you meet?'

'No,' she replies.
 
You just happened to catch my eye.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on June 02, 2011, 12:08:55 am
Just finished reading an article in the Daily Mirror about a 20 year old girl on benefits who smoked 3500 cigarettes during her pregnancy and insists that it did the baby good!
She also said " I love having something to do  roll a fag,smoke the fag, watch TV"    
Surprise,surprise, but WORK wasn't mentioned at all. It's one four letter word that they never repeat, perhaps it's too offensive to them.


The word VERMIN springs to mind...once again.

Surely in the REAL world, she can't afford a fag, or a TV license, and certainly not a baby... I'm sick of it.  :puke2: :puke2:

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on July 10, 2011, 06:03:49 pm
Following a conversation I had with an elderly friend I thought that I'd check out something for myself.  I hope that this loophole has been closed by now as it just makes my blood boil!       :rage:

Returning Polish workers encouraged to keep claiming British benefits
Returning Polish workers are being encouraged to continue claiming hundreds of pounds in benefits from British taxpayers.
By Martin Beckford and Matthew Day

6:46PM GMT 04 Nov 2008

Comment

 
Job centre staff in Poland say increasing numbers of people are coming back to their home country after losing work in the UK and Ireland.
They are hosting special meetings to explain to them that rather than signing on for Polish unemployment benefit, which pays just £120 a month, they should use a European Union loophole to continue claiming Jobseeker's Allowance from Britain at a rate of about £260 a month.
The rules allow any European worker who is already claiming unemployment benefit in Britain to continue receiving it for three months after they move elsewhere, earning them almost £800.
Latest figures suggest Britain's generous benefits system is paying out £170million a year to Eastern European migrants, with millions in Child Benefit going to children who still live in their home countries.
Renata Cygan, vice director of the regional employment office in the south-western Polish town of Opole, said: "In Opole we have had 553 people apply for Polish benefit – 200 more than last year.
"We've come to think that if somebody worked abroad then they should apply for the benefit in that country. Why should we pay? That is why we have organised these information meetings, so people know about foreign benefits."
She said her office had received 10 calls in just one day from Poles returning home from Ireland who wanted to keep claiming Jobseeker's Allowance.
According to the leading Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza, another job centre in Rzeszow received more inquiries about how to claim British and Irish unemployment benefits in one week than it had all the previous year.
The Home Office estimates that as many as 100,00 Poles have returned home over the past year. Many more are predicted to leave as the British economy worsens, although the Federation of Poles in Great Britain claims only those who had no families or who were doing cash-in-hand jobs are likely to give up their lives in the UK.
Critics said it is wrong for anyone to claim benefits from a country in which they are no longer resident.
Mark Wallace, campaign director of the Taxpayers' Alliance, said: "A lot of people will be very surprised that the British benefits system is paying for people on the other side of the continent.
"It is meant to be a safety net for people in this country who are unable to work. It is a sign of serious mismanagement if the rules allow people to return to Eastern Europe and still live at the British taxpayer's expense."





Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2011, 04:08:20 pm
I'll have to give up watching TV programmes like the UK Border Force as I just get mad at the red tape that restricts these officers from doing their duty.       :rage:
When a suspected illegal immigrant is detained by the UK Border Force surely it should be for the suspect to prove who they are and where they have come from BUT it isn't.   Unless the officers can obtain a passport or other evidence from this usually uncooperative suspect they cannot deport him but will arrest him then later release him with certain conditions like reporting to the Police Station every week.
Needless to say that the vast majority of these illegals abscond and don't report back as requested.  Those that do comply with the  conditions get an allowance of £33.00 per day for their living expenses.
It's no wonder that the officers from the UK Border Force are dissatisfied with the restrictions put on them
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Trojan on July 27, 2011, 10:58:40 pm
On the flip side to unemployed people claiming benefits, a Llanrwst lollipop man says he was forced to resign because CCBC were overpaying him by £1.30 which effected his benefits.

Councils across Britain are struggling to recruit school crossing patrollers, with some blaming a ‘benefits trap’ that means retired applicants would lose out by doing the job.

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2011/07/21/llanrwst-lollipop-man-says-he-was-forced-to-resign-55243-29090585/ (http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2011/07/21/llanrwst-lollipop-man-says-he-was-forced-to-resign-55243-29090585/)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on July 28, 2011, 01:52:34 pm
This is an  anomaly but there are many others too such as some benefits being taxable and some benefits not but no one should be better off not working than someone who is prepared to work as it's just not fair.
With regard to the Polish people who have been laid off work and returned to Poland and have been advised to continue claiming benefits from Britain. This is just ridiculous as one of the benefits has to be Job Seekers allowance and they have to be in a position of being able to work but how can they be if they are now back in Poland.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2011, 02:51:53 pm
I was reading an article in the Daily Mirror under the large worded heading " UNEMPLOYED?  WORK A 30- HOUR WEEK FOR FREE"
It said that the jobless will have to work for their benefits under a tough US- style programme announced by David Cameron yesterday.
Anyone unemployed for more than two years faces a 30 hour week for no extra cash under the PM's "workforce plan.
Those who refuse to do the compulsory work will lose their benefits.
It'll be interesting to see if it works and could give those people actively seeking work some encouragement to focus on and those layabouts who do not want to work a kick up the a***.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Pendragon on November 10, 2011, 03:19:23 pm
This will only encourage free labour I can't see any real long term jobs coming out of this.  It's a good that people have to work for their benefits don't get me wrong.  The people who desperately want a job can't get work because full time jobs are few and far between. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2011, 05:00:33 pm
Free labour is what it is, but it should be aimed at the long term unemployed.  Those who don't want to work and are content on scrounging.
There should be plenty of manual work needed for Councils,Charities etc. For instance in Conwy alone there's glass that needs clearing from the lovely Morfa Beach, Cemeteries that need tidying up and general litter clearance from the area and this applies to all the other towns in the area.
I feel sorry for the genuine people who are actively looking for work because of the lack of jobs in the area. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on November 10, 2011, 06:25:01 pm
So instead of relying on "free" labour to clean the beaches and cemetaries why not get people into paid employment by giving them a job to fulfil these needs?    WWW
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2011, 06:54:10 pm
I would imagine that part of this is to try and change the "benefit culture"  of the people who refuse to look for work.
 The general state of the economy has resulted in employers having to make cuts to the staffing levels so that any manual work like litter clearance may be neglected.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 12, 2012, 10:56:19 am
So she thinks she's too good to work in a shop but not so proud that she minds claiming the dole? Funny old world, isn't it?


A university graduate was told she had to stop volunteering at a local museum for four weeks and do unpaid work in a Poundland store in order to continue receiving Jobseeker’s Allowance.

Cait Reilly, who graduated from Birmingham University in 2010, was regularly volunteering part-time at the Pen Museum & Learning Centre in Birmingham because she hoped to pursue a career in museums.

But last autumn she was told by her local Jobcentre Plus that she had been placed on a "sector-based work academy", a four-week programme made up of two weeks’ employability training and two weeks’ unpaid work at Poundland.

Reilly has this week launched proceedings to seek a judicial review of the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Employment, Skills and Enterprise Scheme) Regulations 2011, which include a power to compel JSA claimants to carry out work.

Her solicitor, Jim Duffy of Public Interest Lawyers, said Reilly had been volunteering at the museum since May. He said she was placed on the work academy programme by her local Jobcentre Plus and agreed to do it after being told about the scheme in "vague and inaccurate terms".

Duffy said when Reilly found out more about the programme, she told staff at the Jobcentre Plus that she did not want to take part, but was told that it was mandatory. She did the Poundland placement in November.

Brian Jones, another volunteer at the Pen Museum, a registered charity, said Reilly was not able to give much notice that she would have to stop her work for a month. "She is a valued volunteer here, so to lose her in that period was very difficult for us," he said.

A spokeswoman for the Department for Work and Pensions said: "Working in retail is perfectly good experience for a career in a museum. There are very similar transferable skills involved."

http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/Policy_and_Politics/article/1111722/museum-volunteer-told-work-unpaid-poundland/ (http://www.thirdsector.co.uk/Policy_and_Politics/article/1111722/museum-volunteer-told-work-unpaid-poundland/)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: martin on January 12, 2012, 12:04:51 pm
In Spain the unemployed are tasked to undertake work that will benefit the comunity, you will often see gangs of them digging some plot or other, painting road verges, lamp posts,etc, etc, they all appear happy to do it, mind you, there is still a sense of community in much of Spain.   I suppose it would be just about impossible to introduce such a scheme in the UK, as the case of that pathetic little girl illustrates, they really do make me sick, I am sure the majority of us on this forum have at some time or other had to do a job we did not really want to do, but you get on with it, it's all part of the journey through life.  Today, they all seem to want to start at the top. $angry$ $angry$ $angry$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 12, 2012, 05:23:17 pm
Spain seems to have the right attitude and it benefits everyone from the community to the people carrying out the work as it must give the unemployed a sense of purpose and achievement.
We've all done jobs that we've disliked but it has been a means to an end and no one should expect something for doing nothing.
If those people were self employed and didn't do or want to do any work then they wouldn't get any money coming in, so what's the difference?
It's wrong when someone expects to be kept in benefits throughout their life and expects others who work to provide those benefits for them.      :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 12, 2012, 08:39:19 pm
The girl is absolutely right to refuse to do that job for free. She has already given up 3 to 4 years of her life to study and get her self thousands of pounds in debt in the hope of pursuing a good well paid career (one that will see her pay far more back in taxes through her life time than she would ever take out in benefits) following her successful well earned degree like 99% of graduates she was unable to find employment right away, so she dutifully decided to volunteer for a job as it would help further her career and give something back for the meagre benefits she was receiving to survive.

However the job centre, (and you lot) not happy with a good deed, decide to pigeon her off working in a cheap shop, where she'd probably spend her day waiting on lazy unemployed people, who wouldn't even contemplate the idea of bettering themselves in education or ever getting of benefits.

I mean I know you angry Jeremy Clarkson types love berating anyone less fortunate than yourselves but there are far better targets than an innocent young girl who wants to make a better life for her self and whose only crime is she doesn't want to work in poundland for free. I wouldn't work in bloody poundland for free!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: martin on January 12, 2012, 08:46:18 pm
DO NOT put liken me to that tit Jeremy Clarkson, I will take most things, but that is a bridge too far. $angry$ $angry$ $angry$ $angry$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: martin on January 12, 2012, 08:48:41 pm
Sorry, I was so angry, the third word of my post "put" was written in error. _))*
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 12, 2012, 08:54:44 pm
Born to Run .... nicely put ... I like to see a firmly made contrary post that stimulates debate.
Nothing worse than a bland forum.

It just goes to show that we never really know the facts do we?  In this case I still don't.

We all want the best for our kids, and when trying to get a foothold on the evasive employment ladder these days, it is necessary to do something like volunteering to get something different on your CV.
However, it is upsetting to think that this can be taken too far and our kids can be taken the p##s out of, as unpaid labour.

The truth I suspect, is somewhere in between.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 12, 2012, 09:16:43 pm
Nothing wrong with Jeremy Clarkson!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: martin on January 12, 2012, 09:32:20 pm
I bet Your new dove friend does not agree with you.  I can hear her/him now now, "down with Jeremy" :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 12, 2012, 10:06:19 pm
Yes, Born2Run, it's a hard life, isn't it? Same for all of us though. Maybe we'll go and volunteer for 10 hours a week in a museum instead of working for a living. The downside, unfortunately, is that there would be no-one to pay all the benefits.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 12, 2012, 11:12:11 pm
Yes, Born2Run, it's a hard life, isn't it? Same for all of us though. Maybe we'll go and volunteer for 10 hours a week in a museum instead of working for a living. The downside, unfortunately, is that there would be no-one to pay all the benefits.  :laugh:

So that would be ten hours (she might have done more) for the grand sum of (drum roll)....... £53.45

or £5.34 an hour - which is 74p less than the MINIMUM wage.

Yep this girl is clearly spoiled rotten  :o - I call for a public lynching advertised via Top Gear  WWW
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 12, 2012, 11:21:07 pm
The minimum wage caused many jobs to go abroad
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 12, 2012, 11:21:20 pm
Of course where the real scandal comes in, is that she was presumably made to do full time work at poundland.
If she did say 37.5 hours a week at poundland for her benefits - she would be on the equivalent of £1.40 an hour.
Pretty much unfair - slave labour.

Doing a job which somebody should be doing full time - coming off benefits for the minimum wage of £6 an hour.
This is actually preventing work not helping.

This is not a great scheme in any way but a way for the government to smudge their figures and look they are doing something positive, to appease their angry Daily Mail reading voters.

and

A way for a massive chain store to charge a pound for their stuff, because they don't have to pay true staff costs, thus also harming local businesses.

But if it gets the workshy out of the house presumably we should all just cheer?  D)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 12, 2012, 11:24:20 pm
The minimum wage caused many jobs to go abroad

Because that's what big business chose - they will not do anything to harm their profits. The government could have clamped dwn tighter on this but instead prefer to besmirch trade unions anyway they can, rather than working together and coming up with a solid policy to keep work in the country as other countries have done successfully
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: suepp on January 13, 2012, 12:27:18 am
Over 1000 people applied for 16 jobs at DFS in Llandudno

I overheard a young girl working in a Supermarket today telling another worker she could not afford to go back to Uni because she only had a 12 hour contract for her job

RBS  plan to make 4,000 redundant whilst at the same time the head of the affected division is set to have a £4m bonus this year
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 13, 2012, 08:22:20 am
As evidenced by the local economy.

Ten years ago I would have stepped out on a Thursday, Friday or Sunday night in Llandudno to packed streets and pubs. Nowadays they are empty
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 13, 2012, 08:42:22 am
As evidenced by the local economy.

Ten years ago I would have stepped out on a Thursday, Friday or Sunday night in Llandudno to packed streets and pubs. Nowadays they are empty
You must go in some odd pubs and bars, because the ones I go in are all busy...

And anyone who witnessed the spending frenzy in Llandudno's shops before Christmas would have no doubt that there is money about.  ;)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: norman08 on January 13, 2012, 09:53:49 am
talking to my niece yesterday the company she works for are closing her shop , i asked if she was moving to the other new one ,[ in the new mostyn st] the major company hav,nt even told the staff anything.another worried youngster
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 13, 2012, 09:58:43 am
JD Sports Clearance?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Bri Roberts on January 13, 2012, 10:08:36 am
or Blacks or Milletts.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 13, 2012, 10:11:05 am
Here's an interesting statistic.

£57,000,000 was spent providing benefits in the Aberconwy constituency*.
The population of Aberconwy is about 55,000**.
Benefits provided per head of population amount to £1,036.


* - http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/01/13/north-wales-benefits-bill-tops-700m-55578-30113806/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/01/13/north-wales-benefits-bill-tops-700m-55578-30113806/)
** - http://www.assemblywales.org/10-013.pdf (http://www.assemblywales.org/10-013.pdf)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 13, 2012, 10:22:07 am
I've not had any so its a slightly higher amount for the other 54,999  ;D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 13, 2012, 10:35:58 am
Ditto. Bear in mind that the figure does not include Pensions.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: suepp on January 13, 2012, 11:21:15 am
Ten years ago I would have stepped out on a Thursday, Friday or Sunday night in Llandudno to packed streets and pubs. Nowadays they are empty
[/quote]
You must go in some odd pubs and bars, because the ones I go in are all busy...

And anyone who witnessed the spending frenzy in Llandudno's shops before Christmas would have no doubt that there is money about.  ;)
[/quote]
That's the thing, those on a decent wage - and I would include those on so called "average income" in this -  are still able to treat themselves to holidays and nights out.  Those on minimum or just above minimum wage  on short hour contracts and who have not had a pay rise for years, are the ones without spending power. Those with money in their pockets can take advantage of the bargains to be had at the moment. Big business is still booming, the shops that are closing down have been let go by those with the power to keep them going.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 13, 2012, 12:23:38 pm
I have a variety of friends on Facebook, ranging from students to unemployed to working to rich. Oddly enough, its the ones that earn the least that always seem to be going out to the Boulevard etc...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: suepp on January 13, 2012, 01:32:55 pm
that can be an inexpensive night out if they have a "cheapy" at home before going there, lots of young people I know do this.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 13, 2012, 01:43:23 pm
Agreed, they usually have a few drinks at home before heading out around 10pm or so. Maybe Born2Run is tucked up in bed by then?  ;D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 13, 2012, 04:14:53 pm
I've not had any so its a slightly higher amount for the other 54,999  ;D

I've not had any either and after 47 years I'm still paying out for the idle few!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 13, 2012, 04:31:03 pm
I bet Your new dove friend does not agree with you.  I can hear her/him now now, "down with Jeremy" :laugh:

Fluff is very happy with Jeremy as you can see  ;D

(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0187.jpg)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: martin on January 13, 2012, 04:35:15 pm
Oh ME, how could you?  His poor little undeveloped brain, I feel I should report you to someone, this must be illegal, you just wait until PC Whatsit is next on the forum, then you will know about it :o
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 13, 2012, 08:38:16 pm
Agreed, they usually have a few drinks at home before heading out around 10pm or so. Maybe Born2Run is tucked up in bed by then?  ;D

 :D asleep on the pub table more like  ZXZ
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: pentan on January 14, 2012, 12:08:01 pm
you lot are all drunks
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 14, 2012, 01:46:35 pm
Are we? A bit of a generalisation!  I actually drink very little alcohol Z**

Welcome to the forum by the way!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: martin on January 14, 2012, 01:50:54 pm
As for me, I do not drink, but again, welcome to the forum. ;D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 14, 2012, 06:16:02 pm
Are we? A bit of a generalisation!  I actually drink very little alcohol Z**

Welcome to the forum by the way!
[/quote

he/she has called Jimmy Saville a lot worse!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 14, 2012, 06:30:41 pm
I am a drunk!   (sometimes)   Z**

I also have a funny feeling that once Dave R checks the Forum, we won't be seeing much more of pentan.   ;)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Nemesis on January 15, 2012, 09:22:41 am
Surprised that it has lasted so long, knowing how efficient he usually is !
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 15, 2012, 09:34:11 am
I have removed the post about Jimmy Saville.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: pentan on January 15, 2012, 09:48:29 am
Surprised that it has lasted so long, knowing how efficient he usually is !

So you want me banned from the forum this tells me that freedom of speech is a no go unless it suits you lot?
My reference to jimmy savile was in the public domain as it was reported in the news, the other reason could be you are a member of a certain ring?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 15, 2012, 10:57:27 am
Surprised that it has lasted so long, knowing how efficient he usually is !

So you want me banned from the forum this tells me that freedom of speech is a no go unless it suits you lot?
My reference to jimmy savile was in the public domain as it was reported in the news, the other reason could be you are a member of a certain ring?

Really could you point us to a link to the news story it was reported in? Or perhaps was a dream you had? Whilst being tied to your bed in some sort of institution?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 15, 2012, 11:11:09 am
Everyone is entitled to their point of view and is welcome to put it forward on here. However, the laws of Libel still apply to Internet Forums and we cannot allow any unsubstantiated allegation to remain, as we are ultimately liable for what is posted on here.  :)
Title: Disability Living Allowance
Post by: pentan on January 18, 2012, 11:01:52 am
The government has headed off a House of Lords defeat over plans to replace the Disability Living Allowance

DLA The brainchild of Thatcher in the 80s to hide the high unemployment figures!! Is to be replaced by PIP it is hoped that this new benefit will save millions for the country by weeding out people that should not be on the old benefit as they do not reflect real Disability.

All claimants will be medically assessed for the new PIP by a French medical firm who work on a basis of the more people they refuse the more profit they make, this idea was implemented by the last Government, and you can find the cost of this to the tax payer by searching for atos.

The new Benefit will not be available for children under 16 like the old DLA although in principal I agree with bill so far this part in my opinion is ill thought out, it is very costly to provide for a disabled child as the government provide very little support
So goodbye to bad back claims repetitive strain, I’m to depressed to get up for work all we need now is more jobs
Title: Re: Disability Living Allowance
Post by: pentan on January 18, 2012, 11:10:19 am
My MP Tim Farron (Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)
 asked this question yesterday
 
"To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much his Department paid for the services provided by ATOS Healthcare in 2009-10"
 
Chris Grayling (Minister of State (Employment), Work and Pensions; Epsom and Ewell, Conservative) replied
 
The DWP paid ATOS Healthcare
 £107 million in 2009-10 for the services provided under the medical services agreement.

This figure not only covers the total number of examinations undertaken across all benefits, but also costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative costs, investment in new technology and other service improvements.
 
Nice little earner for ATOS.

 Source: Parliamentary Answers 08/11/2010
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 24, 2012, 11:08:14 am
AROUND 10,000 people in Wales will be hit by the Government’s housing benefits cap, it was revealed yesterday.

The figures were released as the coalition survived the first of a series of challenges to its welfare reforms in the House of Lords.

The Government’s impact assessment said 67,000 households across Britain will be affected by capping benefits at £26,000 a year, losing on average £83 a week. The cap would be £500 a week – the equivalent to a salary of £35,000 earned by working households before tax.

Almost two-thirds of those affected will be in London and the South East, where rents are higher, and fewer than 3% of the households are in Wales, or just under 2,000.


While every council area in Wales has affected families, none has more than 200, and most have fewer than 100.

There are around 7,000 children living in the affected households in Wales, and 3,000 adults.

Plaid Cymru peer Lord Wigley warned the cap will have a damaging impact on the lives of already vulnerable people, as he voted against the measure.

He argued that the cap would force benefit claimants to move to areas of lower rent, where there are already problems of housing shortage and unemployment.

“The Government’s policy is, by use of the cap, to force up to 67,000 families and 200,000 children on benefits to move from south east England to places in Wales and north east England where rents are lower,” he said.

It would transplant vulnerable people to areas where they had no chance of finding work.

Lord Wigley added: “It is also outrageous that workers who have suffered injuries or disease as a result of their work – such as slate quarrymen – and have been awarded benefit as compensation, should lose that benefit if other factors – such as rent levels – are outside their control.”

Stephen Doughty of Oxfam Cymru said that another crucial issue was how the future benefits will be paid to couples.

The charity wants benefits to children to go to the main carer – usually the mother – rather than roll them into a single joint payment for one person in the household.

Victoria Winckler, director of the Bevan Foundation, part of Cuts Watch Cymru, said the cap related only to 1% of all benefit claimants, but would disproportionately harm children.

Prime Minister David Cameron said the £35,000 equivalent wage was a “good healthy salary”.

He added: “It’s a basic issue of fairness. Should people really be able to earn more than £26,000 just through benefits alone?”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/01/24/benefits-cap-will-hit-10-000-in-wales-55578-30185837/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/01/24/benefits-cap-will-hit-10-000-in-wales-55578-30185837/)


I find the idea that anyone would be receiving even £500 a week in benefits astonishing, when most people I know in Llandudno don't earn anywhere near that for working full time. Why should these people enjoy a better lifestyle than the taxpayers whose hard work funds their benefits?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: martin on January 24, 2012, 11:38:39 am
Quote from Dave "I find the idea that anyone would be receiving even £500 a week in benefits astonishing, when most people I know in Llandudno don't earn anywhere near that for working full time. Why should these people enjoy a better lifestyle than the taxpayers whose hard work funds their benefits?"  I could not agree more, it's an odd road that has led us to this appalling state of affairs, what a mess we are in as a country. &shake&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Llechwedd on January 24, 2012, 12:04:19 pm
They should try living on less than 9k old age pension.  26k would be magnificent :(
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 24, 2012, 12:08:24 pm
I don't think that a single person is on £500 per week.
I think a whole series of things have to conspire against you to get that.... (e.g. 4 kids, a disabled family member, or a combination of factors)

I agree that £9 is totally insufficient as a pension... and no matter how much I have stashed in private pensions, I fully expect them to be worth b****r all when I retire.

Pension schemes, the biggest con in the last 50 years.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 24, 2012, 12:14:02 pm
I think a whole series of things have to conspire against you to get that.... (e.g. 4 kids
Having 4 kids is a choice, surely? Their choice to have 4 kids, so their responsibility to pay for them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 24, 2012, 12:16:54 pm
They may have been able to pay for them when they had them... but a father leaving (to get a new bird or a quiet life!!), or losing a well paid job can turn life upside down.

I think someone needs to get down of their high horse.   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 24, 2012, 12:20:42 pm
..or maybe the parents have never worked in their life?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Quiggs on January 24, 2012, 01:00:04 pm
In all my working life I have never achieved the so called ' Average Wage ' in fact no where near it, yet still managed to provide for my family and never claimed any Benefits. I even sold my house to provide for my retirement. The thought that someone can be paid £26,000 / Yr. for doing sod all appals me.   $angry$  $angry$  $angry$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 24, 2012, 01:07:56 pm
..or maybe the parents have never worked in their life?

Whatever the circumstances they should not be in a position where the family are better off on benefits than working for a living, whether that is in London or anywhere else. As for any absent fathers then the CSA should ensure that he is paying for his offspring not the taxpayer.
It's just a joke and I'm surprised that anyone can speak out against capping benefits.  You can get the Bishops in the House of Lords arguing against it but how do they respond to one of their own Clergy who spoke out yesterday and said that he has to manage on his £22K per annum salary!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 24, 2012, 01:17:52 pm
Fester is always keen on bashing the Bishops, so I'm surprised he's not more in favour of this proposed cap...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 24, 2012, 01:34:08 pm
 L0L L0L
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 24, 2012, 01:45:16 pm
Fester is always keen on bashing the Bishops, so I'm surprised he's not more in favour of this proposed cap...  :laugh:

 :laugh: :laugh:     Dave, I dare say you have been preparing that joke for a long, long time... and finally your chance came!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 24, 2012, 01:45:58 pm
Correct!  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 24, 2012, 05:50:59 pm
Quote
Having 4 kids is a choice, surely? Their choice to have 4 kids, so their responsibility to pay for them.

The main reason for this being defeated in the Lords was that it was perceived as a direct attack on the welfare of children.  No easy answers to this one.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: pentan on May 28, 2012, 07:01:16 pm
Getting very worried daver is sounding more like Jeremy Kyle every day he will be telling us to put something on the end of it next






Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 28, 2012, 09:30:48 pm
Getting very worried daver is sounding more like Jeremy Kyle every day he will be telling us to put something on the end of it next
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: pentan on May 28, 2012, 09:50:40 pm
good lady has been in hospitial for a big op so had to take over the mantle and as they say a womans work is never done &shake&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 28, 2012, 10:04:54 pm
I hope she's recovered to full health now?
Title: disability living allowance
Post by: pentan on May 30, 2012, 01:39:20 pm
Losing your disability living allowance (DLA) may make you healthier, the DWP has argued, as they show how they plan to slash claimant numbers by half a million when personal independence payment ( PIP) is introduced. The cuts will also mean that only half as many people will get  a combined award of both the care component (daily living component under PIP) and mobility component.

Meanwhile,  Iain Duncan Smith has complained that two thirds of DLA claimants ‘fester’ on unchecked lifetime awards, so something had to be done about it.

 IBS should build Gas chambers get the lot off it in one fell swoop and while he is at it euthanasia for anybody over 67 one year on a pension is quite enough how dare they take money off the rich paying benefits stops the government giving these peeps tax perks
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on May 30, 2012, 01:41:13 pm
I only read the headlines in a paper yesterday but  it said that a couple with 10 children receive £50,000.00 a year in benefits.  They said the state pays them these benefits so why should they work for less!     :o :o
They are right of course but it is the system that is at fault.   There doesn't seem to be any stigma attached to those people who are content to rely  on benefits and not do a single days work in their life.  I thought Cameron was going to cap the total family benefits at £26K and the likes of this parasitic family would then have to manage like the rest of us do.
Decent hard working people limit the size of their family to what they can afford financially so why should it be different for those that don't want to work.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on May 30, 2012, 11:32:37 pm
Hugo, I agree.
Mr Cameron did indeed commence his pruning of the benefit system and ludicrous payouts such as those.
But as always, the mealy-mouthed opposition (and numerous members of his own coalition) hindered the process with cries of 'Racist' or 'Oppressor of the poor'

Unfortunately, unless a real strong government emerges, one which is free to make harsh decisions and implement them, then this issue and many like it will not get addressed.
Such a government will never emerge though, because the bulk of the electorate fear such strong government.

So, we drift ever further into debt and moral and social decline.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Dwyforite on May 31, 2012, 12:41:59 am
seems like a right wing dictatorship would suit you down to the ground
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on May 31, 2012, 12:48:43 am
Might be what the country needs Dwyforite.   Not advocating it mind.

I fear the alternative even more.

Strong decisions and sensible budgetting have not always just been the domain of right wing governments only.

There used to be a thing called statesmanship,  and another called leadership.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on May 31, 2012, 08:39:26 am
seems like a right wing dictatorship would suit you down to the ground
If we put aside left and right wing for a moment, it's a fact that the National Debt is increasing by £446m EVERY DAY to fund Public Spending. How would you deal with it?

http://www.debt-clock.org/ (http://www.debt-clock.org/)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on May 31, 2012, 09:27:38 am
Dwyforite, how can you defend the indefensible?     It's inconceivable to think that anyone, whether they have no children or 17 children should be receiving more in benefits than the average take home pay for a working man or woman.
There can be no argument in favour of giving people more money for doing absolutely nothing at all than for someone who has to graft for their pay.
If the benefits are capped at a figure of £26K then they will have to manage on those amounts.  After all the majority of decent working people in this area have to pay all their bills on an amount far less than £26K
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on May 31, 2012, 07:17:42 pm
Quote
If we put aside left and right wing for a moment, it's a fact that the National Debt is increasing by £446m EVERY DAY to fund Public Spending. How would you deal with it?

Ahhh... if only it were that simple...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 17, 2012, 11:57:27 pm
A statistic on the BBC news today took me aback.

Apparently, 9.2% of the population of Wales is receiving some form of disability benefit.
The average the UK is 6%, (which itself will be inflated by the 9.2% here in Wales)

Can anyone think of why there should be such a huge disparity between Wales and the rest of the UK in terms of people being unable to work due to disability?

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SDQ on October 18, 2012, 12:20:15 am
I think I once read that some long term unemployed people were moved to the disability section as a way of 'massaging' the unemployment figures. Considering how large parts of Wales are very rural & employment opportunities are scarce in certain areas this could be one possible reason.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 18, 2012, 12:32:16 am
I am aware that there are a large number of long-term unemployed people that are moved into a 'dormant' category, which means they still get unemployment benefit, but no longer need to even attend to sign on.... but those getting disability allowance are different.
They need to be certified medically as being unfit to work due to a disability.
This can range from blindness, to drug addiction...

But I just wondered why the figure was so much worse in Wales compared to the UK total.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 18, 2012, 07:17:06 am
It's an interesting one, and I suspect one contributing factor could be the coal mining claims.But there are a huge number of disability allowances of one sort or another:

Disability Living Allowance (DLA)
Employment and Support Allowance (ESA)
Attendance Allowance
Access to Work
Disability Premiums (Income Support)
Incapacity Benefit
Work Choice
Independent Living Fund
Blind Person's Allowance
Coal health compensation claims
Disabled Facilities Grants
Disabled Students' Allowances (DSAs)
Help if you have a disabled child
Personal Independence Payment
Reduced Earnings Allowance
Severe Disablement Allowance
Vaccine Damage Payment

Part of the problem has to be that the edifice of benefits has mutated with every new government, so few folk actually know all the benefits that can be claimed.  What's needed, of course, is the radical step of dismantling the entire structure completely, and staring again from scratch - not easy to do when you're trying hard to ensure no one in genuine need misses out.

I think the other issue has to be the type of disability and its effects. There are, for example, numerous stages of sight impairment, and it often surprises people to learn that most legally blind people can actually see, albeit to a limited extent. Physical disabilities (legs, backs, etc.) are even harder to assess, since our extremely well-paid GPs can rarely assess such conditions with any degree of accuracy and can, often, become a 'soft touch' for those seeking to register.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on October 18, 2012, 08:23:29 am
One thing that has always surprised me is the number of walking sticks that get left in shops, cafes, theatres etc. etc. that are supposedly required, or even a necessity, by their "disabled" owners!!!
 :D
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: cygnusx-1 on October 18, 2012, 07:30:16 pm
I think the large number of Pensioners who retire to this area does not help... I bet the percentage on Penrhyn Beach Estate is way above 9.2%.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on October 18, 2012, 07:52:38 pm
I'm absolutely surrounded by them!    _))*

The reason for the high percentage of pensioners is because all that is being built are retirement flats and sheltered housing!   One only has to look around to see what has been (and is still being) built within Llandudno and surrounding area.  M & S have just started another large block on Gloddaeth Avenue, and there is more to come, no doubt!

There are also a large number of Nursing and Retirement Homes attracting the older generation.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Kowalski on October 18, 2012, 09:33:12 pm
Quote
If we put aside left and right wing for a moment, it's a fact that the National Debt is increasing by £446m EVERY DAY to fund Public Spending. How would you deal with it?


I'd be careful who you quote, that debt clock thing is brought to you by the Taxpayers' Alliance and the Taxpayers' Alliance "was founded in 2004 by "a group of "libertarian" Conservatives".

The "national debt problem" is hardly above left and right, it's the latest right wing justification for attacking the state.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 18, 2012, 11:54:34 pm
Quote

If we put aside left and right wing for a moment, it's a fact that the National Debt is increasing by £446m EVERY DAY to fund Public Spending. How would you deal with it?

I'd be careful who you quote, that debt clock thing is brought to you by the Taxpayers' Alliance and the Taxpayers' Alliance "was founded in 2004 by "a group of "libertarian" Conservatives".

The "national debt problem" is hardly above left and right, it's the latest right wing justification for attacking the state.
Yes, the National Debt is obviously a myth, although that right wing bastion, the Guardian, says the National Debt figure has increased by £59,000,000,000 so far this year.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/21/uk-government-borrowing-record-august-high?newsfeed=true (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/21/uk-government-borrowing-record-august-high?newsfeed=true)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 19, 2012, 12:37:25 am
Pensioners moving to Penryhn Bay (or anywhere else for that matter) is not the answer.

The vast majority of pensioners have always paid their way, and still do!
In fact every seaside town in England also attracts a large amount of retiring people... Eastbourne, Scarborough, Bournemouth, the list is endless... its not a Welsh phenomena.

No, we are looking here at people of working age... but cannot (or will not?) work due to a disability of some kind.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2012, 08:08:24 am
Quote
Yes, the National Debt is obviously a myth, although that right wing bastion, the Guardian, says the National Debt figure has increased by £59,000,000,000 so far this year.

Well, it's not a myth, exactly, although few people fully comprehend what it actually is. However, the Guardian also goes on to reveal what's causing the figure to remain stubbornly high:

Quote
With the UK mired in recession, benefit payments rose while key sources of income – such as corporation tax – fell. The public finances data show corporation tax since April was 10% lower than the same period last year. Overall tax receipts for the tax year to date inched up 0.4%, just a fraction of the 3.9% rise the Office for Budget Responsibility is forecasting for the year. The figures leave the Treasury's calculations in tatters and could force Osborne into an embarrassing climbdown at his autumn statement in December.

The emboldened bit is faintly ironic, of course;  were the big multi-nationals (and darlings of the right) like Starbucks paying their fair share, then we might not be in the mess we're supposedly in.  However, that we're trapped in a vicious circle of no lending - no expansion - no jobs - increasing benefits - lower tax income - no lending.... you get the idea - is beyond question, and the country is going nowhere. The cycle needs to be broken, and merely tinkering with benefits to appease the right wingers is never going to do the job. Since the ND is rising so much, it might be time for the government (as it almost certainly was when this mess started) to start a big programme of investment and job creation. Mainly, the sector that needs kick starting is the manual worker sector, which largely translates into increased capital building projects.  They could make a good start by demolishing then rebuilding Llandudno railway station, then reinstating beach defences on North Shore, followed by a complete make-over of Happy Valley and Haulfre Gardens. Okay - these are small beer compared to what's needed nationally, but repeated across the UK similar projects could provide lot of jobs, perhaps give a lot of long term unemployed a new sense of direction, improve the look and feel of our towns and cities and - the best bit for the government - reduce the benefit bill and increase tax incomes.

I think it's a shame Osborne stubbornly refuses to consider it as a strategy.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2012, 08:15:39 am
This makes interesting reading...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Kowalski on October 19, 2012, 09:57:50 pm
I wonder if tax avoidance and tax evasion has anything to do with the shortfall. Hmmmmm?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2012, 11:21:48 pm
One reason the NHS hospital services are running out of cash is because most consultants choose to be paid as companies...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 19, 2012, 11:35:35 pm
In the case of Starbucks (and other companies accused of tax avoidance)... surely, if a more lenient tax regime exists legally, to ensure that more cash stays in the business, then they would be derelict in their duty to shareholders not to pursue it.

If they paid more tax, then would their products not become more expensive, and wouldn't they be less likely to employ people?

As individuals and businesses, we are being taxed out of existence in this country, and it needs to stop.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 20, 2012, 07:46:55 am
Quote
In the case of Starbucks (and other companies accused of tax avoidance)... surely, if a more lenient tax regime exists legally, to ensure that more cash stays in the business, then they would be derelict in their duty to shareholders not to pursue it.

Well, you have to remember that they pay over VAT (collected on some sales) and Employers NIC, plus they add to the Treasury purse through employing a lot of people but, depending on which paper you read (hence never trusting the papers to really report correctly) they have paid either no Corporation Tax or a few hundred million in the past few years, much less per £ turnover than McDonalds. Additionally, due to a technical trick whereby the the US company takes 6% of every sale for using the name, that bit of profit gets transported back to the US.

If the figures are right HMRC should be taking a closer look at them but in a Global Financial Market some technicalities like this surely must happen.  However, the comparison with McDonalds does suggest that there is a degree of dubious morality involved and they should be paying more.

Quote
If they paid more tax, then would their products not become more expensive, and wouldn't they be less likely to employ people?

Possibly. But Capitalism as a system is supposed to allow for that. Many companies like McDonalds do pay their fair share of Corporation tax, yet manage to maintain low prices and full employment.

Quote
As individuals and businesses, we are being taxed out of existence in this country, and it needs to stop.

That's actually not correct.  Our taxes are broadly in line with the rest of Europe (the coalition raised VAT to bring us in line) and it's important to remember that we enjoy a 'free at point of entry' health services, for which most of the rest of the world pays through the nose.  However, one issue about high income tax is that research has shown for every penny by which income tax is increased, the black market increases by about the same amount, so net tax receipts don't change that much.   

As with the consultants in hospitals and many GPs and Dentists, who arrange their tax affairs so that they're paid as a limited company it's also important to remember that they do it because they can. If the government wants to stop that then they have to change the rules. It will always be a game of cat and mouse, with the mice learning every trick in the book to escape the cat.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 20, 2012, 07:51:50 am
In the final analysis, however, I reiterate what I said in my posting (338 - above) that at this stage it's down to the government to start the ball rolling by kick-staring the manual services aspect of the economy. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 20, 2012, 09:14:47 am
Surely if corporation tax rates were lower, a 'reverse starbucks' effect would happen?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 20, 2012, 09:19:33 am
Social protection spending - £196,000,000,000. With all this money being spent, how can it be possible that you see so people living in little more than slums, wearing filthy clothes etc unless this spending is being mismanaged?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 20, 2012, 10:11:22 pm
In the final analysis, however, I reiterate what I said in my posting (338 - above) that at this stage it's down to the government to start the ball rolling by kick-staring the manual services aspect of the economy.

We don't always see eye to eye on such matters, but I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point.

The devil makes work for idle hands, and young men (and women) need to have something meaningful to do after leaving education.
They need to have a purpose, they need to earn money and they need to contribute.
If not, pretty soon they become a burden, they become disruptive and they become depressed.

Some people are born with lots of 'get up and go' , others are more reticent and need to be pushed... but its vitally important for society as a whole, that employment opportunities exist for all people, young or old.


Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 20, 2012, 10:22:33 pm
Very true, Mr Fester.  $good$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 29, 2012, 08:41:14 am
http://www.demotix.com/news/1058485/coal-miners-life-twenty-years-south-wales#media-1058438 (http://www.demotix.com/news/1058485/coal-miners-life-twenty-years-south-wales#media-1058438)

One of the reasons Wales has a higher percent is because of the large number of ex coal miners in Wales who now cannot work because of the conditions they worked in
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 29, 2012, 08:56:43 am
Indeed.  (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,179.msg52335.html#msg52335) I suspected as much.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 29, 2012, 10:10:25 am
 $thanx$ woops sorry - too many posts to catch up on since returning to the online world! Must have missed yours.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 29, 2012, 11:07:26 am
This is a very sad story...and it once again begs the question..what is the point of spending hundreds of billions of pounds on welfare when the very basic essentials are not being met?

Conwy Foodshare delivering record number of food parcels
Oct 25 2012 by Mari Jones, North Wales Weekly News

THERE has been an alarming surge in demand for food parcels for those in need in Conwy county.
Conwy Food Share was formed last January to feed local people in crisis.
Those who have received food parcels have no financial safety net, or are going through a sudden crisis such as bereavement, benefit delay, redundancy or illness, leaving them unable to feed themselves or their family.
Total parcels delivered by Conwy Food Share between last February and September of last year was 207. The same period for this year was 276. Total family parcels delivered in 2011 were 46, in 2012 it has already reached 108. Last month was a record month for the charity as 46 parcels were delivered, including 21 for families, which feed a total of 50 children.

Each parcel contains enough food for three days, if needed they also contain toiletries such as toilet paper, nappies and shower gel. The parcels contain tins of food, pastas and UHT milk.
The chairman of Conwy Food Share, Cherie Bailey commented: “We had to give one family eight food parcels because they had six children, and their situation was dire.
“We usually can only deliver up to three parcels, but in this case we knew we had to give more.
“We know of another woman, who had five children who had fled here to a safe house from a violent relationship, and after she had bought five new school uniforms for the children she didn’t have any money at all for food.
“There are many people going hungry on our doorsteps.
“When we deliver the parcels, the children get very excited because sometimes they’ve had virtually empty cupboards for two weeks and have had no hot meals, apart from at school.
“If we are giving parcels out to families then we always try and include a few treats as otherwise they wouldn’t get any
“I worry about the future because food and fuel prices are going up all the time, and a lot of people we deliver to can’t budget very well and are in terrible debt, and are robbing Peter to pay Paul.”
The charity has nine volunteers working for them, including a 90-year-old man. At present they don’t need any more, but do need tins of food, including baby food and toiletries. Apart from churches you can also drop off any donations at Cartrefi Conwy.
“People who need parcels go through a vetting process, we only give to those genuinely in need,” said Cherie.
“We have very small overheads, so any donations given do go straight to vulnerable people in Conwy.”
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 29, 2012, 11:23:44 am
This is a very sad story...and it once again begs the question..what is the point of spending hundreds of billions of pounds on welfare when the very basic essentials are not being met?

Conwy Foodshare delivering record number of food parcels
Oct 25 2012 by Mari Jones, North Wales Weekly News

THERE has been an alarming surge in demand for food parcels for those in need in Conwy county.
Conwy Food Share was formed last January to feed local people in crisis.
Those who have received food parcels have no financial safety net, or are going through a sudden crisis such as bereavement, benefit delay, redundancy or illness, leaving them unable to feed themselves or their family.
Total parcels delivered by Conwy Food Share between last February and September of last year was 207. The same period for this year was 276. Total family parcels delivered in 2011 were 46, in 2012 it has already reached 108. Last month was a record month for the charity as 46 parcels were delivered, including 21 for families, which feed a total of 50 children.

Each parcel contains enough food for three days, if needed they also contain toiletries such as toilet paper, nappies and shower gel. The parcels contain tins of food, pastas and UHT milk.
The chairman of Conwy Food Share, Cherie Bailey commented: “We had to give one family eight food parcels because they had six children, and their situation was dire.
“We usually can only deliver up to three parcels, but in this case we knew we had to give more.
“We know of another woman, who had five children who had fled here to a safe house from a violent relationship, and after she had bought five new school uniforms for the children she didn’t have any money at all for food.
“There are many people going hungry on our doorsteps.
“When we deliver the parcels, the children get very excited because sometimes they’ve had virtually empty cupboards for two weeks and have had no hot meals, apart from at school.
“If we are giving parcels out to families then we always try and include a few treats as otherwise they wouldn’t get any
“I worry about the future because food and fuel prices are going up all the time, and a lot of people we deliver to can’t budget very well and are in terrible debt, and are robbing Peter to pay Paul.”
The charity has nine volunteers working for them, including a 90-year-old man. At present they don’t need any more, but do need tins of food, including baby food and toiletries. Apart from churches you can also drop off any donations at Cartrefi Conwy.
“People who need parcels go through a vetting process, we only give to those genuinely in need,” said Cherie.
“We have very small overheads, so any donations given do go straight to vulnerable people in Conwy.”

Few words pop out there - such as "Benefit delay" People should not be going hungry because some pen pusher is not doing their job properly. I hear more and more stories about how absolutely inefficient, some of those who work for this government are.
"bought five new school uniforms for the children she didn’t have any money at all for food." Why are uniforms not given out for free or at least subsidized. Children can't attend school without a uniform, to charge high prices for these is tantamount to blackmail on the most vulnerable.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 29, 2012, 12:27:56 pm
Quote
I hear more and more stories about how absolutely inefficient, some of those who work for this government are.

I suspect one reason is that those who 'work' for the government are an endangered species. With the reductions in manpower across the civil service, it's surprising anything works.

Quote
Why are uniforms not given out for free or at least subsidized. Children can't attend school without a uniform, to charge high prices for these is tantamount to blackmail on the most vulnerable.

But they are subsidised  (http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/school-uniform-grant) and many schools also offer their own help.  And there's something that doesn't ring true about this...
Quote
We know of another woman, who had five children who had fled here to a safe house from a violent relationship, and after she had bought five new school uniforms for the children she didn’t have any money at all for food.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 03, 2013, 08:25:14 pm
Uh ho....  Fat people may be refused benefits under this idea!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20897681 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20897681)

I had better get down that gym a little more.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 03, 2013, 09:04:27 pm
One of the stupidest ideas yet, and for this government that takes some doing!

Even if they get them all to the gym how are they going to make sure they actually use the equipment? Cattle prods? !!

my gym is full enough as it is without having a load of government ordered fatties taking up considerable space!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on January 03, 2013, 09:41:07 pm
There will be yet another QUANGO to administer this rubbish!   What is saved with one hand will be given to Government employees by the other, multiplied by two! 
 $good$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 04, 2013, 07:58:40 am
This sort of thinking was bound to happen  with local councils being given control of NHS budgets.  What concerns me more, however, is that local councils don't currently enjoy unequivocal admiration for their performance in somewhat simpler issues such as road maintenance or - to quote wrex's favourite - decorative street lighting. Now they're effectively being put in charge of the NHS...

 Z@@
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 04, 2013, 08:54:41 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20905415 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20905415)

"Under Labour's plan, the long-term unemployed would be offered 25 hours of work a week at the national minimum wage for six months. Those who did not accept the offer of a suitable job faced having their benefits cut."

 $good$


Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 04, 2013, 10:06:19 am
Although it appears new, that plan has been rattling around Whitehall since at least the mid-term of Blair's administration. Like the coalition's schemes, however, it's beset by multiple issues of implementation. The only to make it work completely would be to return to the German approach of the early '30s.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 04, 2013, 11:37:09 am
Although it appears new, that plan has been rattling around Whitehall since at least the mid-term of Blair's administration. Like the coalition's schemes, however, it's beset by multiple issues of implementation. The only to make it work completely would be to return to the German approach of the early '30s.

What approach did the Germans take then Ian?    A countries greatest resource is its workforce but if the people are not working then it's a waste of an asset.
It should motivate those people who are actively looking for work and be a kick up the backside for anyone who doesn't want to work.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 04, 2013, 03:00:15 pm
Hitler set all the unemployed to building roads - no doubt with a view to his future aspirations :-))))
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 04, 2013, 05:09:27 pm
A good use of resources but perhaps for the wrong reasons.   When we do create work we give the contracts to Foreign companies which doesn't make any sense either.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 05, 2013, 08:11:55 am
I suspect that might have something to do with the way the government's five-year rolling education policy determined - in the '80s - that we had to have a predominantly degree-led work force, as it was thought everyone would need a degree by 2000. Sadly, it appears, it's only belatedly being acknowledged that not everyone is suited to academia, and the country needs a work force to do things like building.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 05, 2013, 10:03:12 pm
I suspect that might have something to do with the way the government's five-year rolling education policy determined - in the '80s - that we had to have a predominantly degree-led work force, as it was thought everyone would need a degree by 2000. Sadly, it appears, it's only belatedly being acknowledged that not everyone is suited to academia, and the country needs a work force to do things like building.

Yes indeed, when I was training in Management and I enquired as to why more of my colleagues weren't applying for the process, I was told 'there needs to be people who put beans INTO the tins'

 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 27, 2013, 06:28:52 pm
The article below is a stark message on how badly and unfairly the country is being run.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 27, 2013, 06:53:38 pm
That's disgusting Fester and it's about time that Cameron capped all benefits at £26K as he promised.        :rage: :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 27, 2013, 06:55:34 pm
£26k is pretty generous, really, given average earnings in the local area.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 27, 2013, 09:04:38 pm
Always a shame to disrupt the right wing fist shaking contest with the truth...

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/immigration-the-real-story/ (http://www.redpepper.org.uk/immigration-the-real-story/)

"Research by the Equality and Human Rights Commission dispels the myth that immigrants jump the social housing waiting list. This found that 60 per cent were privately renting, 18 per cent were owner occupiers, and only 11 per cent were allocated social housing. The research found no evidence of abuse of the system nor of ‘queue jumping’. "
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 27, 2013, 10:43:16 pm
Utter rubbish as usual.       Statistics can be manipulated in many ways to suit your point of view but the examples Fester has highlighted are factual unless you know different!   
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2013, 12:06:40 am
Indeed Hugo, the examples are factual, and therefore abhorrent.

If each of the 9 kids in the family quoted have 9 kids each, that is 81 more people that must be supported on this Isle which is getting no bigger.
It is entirely unsustainable.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2013, 12:17:21 am
"Research by the Equality and Human Rights Commission dispels the myth that immigrants jump the social housing waiting list. This found that 60 per cent were privately renting, 18 per cent were owner occupiers, and only 11 per cent were allocated social housing. The research found no evidence of abuse of the system nor of ‘queue jumping’. "
[/quote]

Fester, you never mentioned once about queue jumping in your article so I don't know where the above nonsense has come from.  What you have highlighted is the injustice in the benefits system that allows foreign nationals to live a life of luxury here that they would not experience in their own country but at the same time  it deprives UK born citizens of a fair and just system.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 28, 2013, 07:11:22 am
Not surprisingly, I'm agreeing with Fester and Hugo on this, this Redpepper thing seems to be from the communist party!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 28, 2013, 07:43:18 am
And Fester's fist shaking lunacy comes from a far right webiste (save your country UK) with strong links to the EDL - run by morons and about as accurate as a Wayne Rooney penalty.

Visit their facebook site for such refreshingly eye opening insights as

Scotland yard warning that Muzzies committing hate crimes against white people could well escalate and assaults could get worse

"or maybe we should accept gangs of foreigners that rape our children, blow up our people, take our jobs, push our services to breaking point "

"Enoch Powell was a hero full of both common sense and insight "

"Too f*****g right Islam has no place in Britain"

"Disgusting, it's bad enough having Eastern Europeans here as it is without them taking part in sham marriages and bringing a load of Muzzies over here aswell"

Nice source Fester  $good$ $good$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 28, 2013, 07:58:34 am
Seems fair enough to me!  $good$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 28, 2013, 08:07:21 am
Quote
What you have highlighted is the injustice in the benefits system that allows foreign nationals to live a life of luxury here that they would not experience in their own country but at the same time  it deprives UK born citizens of a fair and just system.

If you investigate these cases a little further, Hugo, some interesting things emerge.  Just to take Fester's first example of the "2.6 million home for muslim family" I can see how easy it is to assume that it must be a foreign family.  But from the Telegraph (hardly the most rabid, left-wing rag around:-) we discover that "Ms Walker, a British-born Muslim is currently studying psychology through the Open University." so she's not actually an immigrant or a foreign national.

However, we also see that her situation makes headlines because of two factors: the area in which she had to be rehoused and the Children Act. From the council we see that "A Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council spokesman said: 'When Miss Walker came to us she was technically homeless and we had a statutory obligation to house her. We could not move her to a property outside the borough because her children go to local schools and the rules say you can't uproot them.' "

So how to deal with the situation is the real issue, as it's the children which are the real cause of her current situation.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 28, 2013, 08:13:35 am
That there are abuses of the welfare system is no surprise: any system will be abused by someone, somewhere, and welfare systems - by their very nature  - are prime targets. But I don't know how you eradicate those abuses. The Children Act places children at the core of the system, so you'd have to make some pretty tough decisions about them if you were going to change anything.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2013, 10:32:38 am
BTR has jumped in an got the wrong end of the stick.  Fester was highlighting the inconsistencies of the benefit system and how British people were losing out on benefits while the non contributing foreigners were rolling in it.
My contribution was that if the Tory Cameron kept his word then the benefits would be capped at £26K and these extremes would then not arise in the future.
I'm afraid that the rants of the aspiring Karl Marx are more fitting to Groucho Marx


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2155726/Somali-family-benefits-handed-keys--2million-luxury-council-home-Londons-affluent-streets.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2155726/Somali-family-benefits-handed-keys--2million-luxury-council-home-Londons-affluent-streets.html)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2013, 10:38:44 am
Born to Run, I see that the original article came from that site, but I found it in the national press, and also on a forum about stocks and shares, (entirely unrelated to politics)

However, they examples are real, and seemingly you would rather shoot the messenger than address them.

If a member of the BNP tried to rescue you from your burning house, would you deny that the house was on fire because he told you so?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2013, 11:13:13 am
I'll have a look again at the first example Ian, but here is a link to a Somali family in Kensington which is equally disgusting.  What I can't understand is why they have chosen the UK if it wasn't just for benefit reasons, surely Kenya, Ethiopia and a host of middle eastern countries are much nearer Somalia


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1293730/Somali-asylum-seeker-family-given-2m-house--complaining-5-bed-London-home-poor-area.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1293730/Somali-asylum-seeker-family-given-2m-house--complaining-5-bed-London-home-poor-area.html)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 28, 2013, 12:44:52 pm
I agree.  And it's again down to the rules:

Quote
Rules allow anyone who is eligible for housing benefit to claim for a private property in any part of the country they wish.

However, what that doesn't say is that the number of children is the deciding factor.  So, once again, we're back to the Children Act. It was well-intentioned legislation, but it has caused a lot of problems.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2013, 02:37:26 pm

Is this the woman Ian?  "Mother of eight Francesca Walker was placed in a £2.6m house in Notting Hill, west London at the taxpayers' expense
Miss Walker, 33, has Tory leader David Cameron, actor Hugh Grant and Four Weddings writer Richard Curtis as neighbours in fashionable Notting Hill, West London"

I'll take your word that she is British born as I can't find anything to say where she is from but it is still disgusting to read that she is getting so much in benefits from the UK.   I hope Cameron is a man of his word and puts an end to these obscenities.      ???


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154332/Islington-council-houses-family-benefits-1-8-MILLION-property--access-private-basketball-court.html#ixzz2JHRwOyFt (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154332/Islington-council-houses-family-benefits-1-8-MILLION-property--access-private-basketball-court.html#ixzz2JHRwOyFt)
 Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154332/Islington-council-houses-family-benefits-1-8-MILLION-property--access-private-basketball-court.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154332/Islington-council-houses-family-benefits-1-8-MILLION-property--access-private-basketball-court.html)

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 28, 2013, 02:49:19 pm
Hugo:  I don't; disagree with that you're saying. All I'm adding is that it's down to current legislation. And how do you change that?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2013, 10:15:43 pm
I don't think that Mr Cameron or anyone else can put a stop to such abuses.

You see, by the very nature of a coalition government, the more 'controversial' policies we voted for will always be diluted down, compromised on... or simply forgotten about altogether.

There is no real appetite for any government to make any 'radical' changes.... there just aren't enough people who really want to change the status quo.    We would rather moan about it, blog about it, etc.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 29, 2013, 12:23:01 pm
Michael Heseltine, an ex-Tory minister for whom I have immense regard, observed on a programme last week that "All governments are coalitions", by which he meant that the extremes of any single party necessitate continuous compromise once in power. Sobering.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 29, 2013, 12:43:50 pm
How about we scrap most politicans and just have a system of online voting, whereby all taxpayers have the ability to put forward a new law/spending proposal etc and it is then voted upon by other taxpayers. Every month, the proposal or spending plan that receives the most votes gets acted upon. Democracy in its purest form?  ;)

At County level, this could translate into a number of Propositions (e.g. Spend more money on Parks) being put forward every year. Council tax payers would then be able to select the proposition that appeals most to them and this would be enacted if passed. This happens a lot in California and other U.S. States:
http://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/propositions/ (http://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/propositions/)

To be effective, of course, it would rely on the electorate looking at the issues intelligently and voting objectively, rather than just with pure self interest in mind..........ok, forget the idea!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 29, 2013, 02:07:49 pm
Quote
How about we scrap most politicans and just have a system of online voting, whereby all taxpayers have the ability to put forward a new law/spending proposal etc and it is then voted upon by other taxpayers. Every month, the proposal or spending plan that receives the most votes gets acted upon. Democracy in its purest form?

I've been suggesting this for years, but the vested powers don't like the concept.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 29, 2013, 03:36:37 pm
Hugo:  I don't; disagree with that you're saying. All I'm adding is that it's down to current legislation. And how do you change that?

You are correct of course Ian and by using current regulation they have legally done nothing wrong but it has got to be stopped somehow. 
 I just wish that the cap of £26K in benefits would come in immediately and put an end to people making a ludicrous career out of being unemployed baby producers.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 30, 2013, 08:59:41 am
'Why should we work? Our parents pay tax so we're entitled to benefits': Couple living off £17,000 handouts say working for the minimum wage is unfair


A young couple who receive more than £17,000 a year in benefits appeared on ITV's This Morning to defend their taxpayer-funded lifestyle.

Danny Creamer, 21, and Gina Allen, 18, who live in a comfortable two-bedroom flat in Portsmouth  with their four month old daughter, Talulah Rose, say they are better off on £17k benefits and argue that unless they are able to find jobs that pay £18,000 a year or more, there's no point in working.

The couple also hit back at those who describe them as scroungers, arguing that because their hard-working parents have paid tax all their lives, they are entitled to claim some of the money back.

Gina, who has worked for Sainsburys in the past said: 'I don’t see that we’re living off the taxpayers, we’re entitled to the money our parents paid all their lives.'

She also claimed that because the pair have paid tax in the past, their daughter should also be entitled to claim benefits in future. 'We have paid into the system as well and you know, if our daughter wants to claim when she's older, she can. We're not going to claim benefits forever so we are going to pay into the system at some point.'

The pair receive £1,473 per month in benefits or £17,680 per year.

This works out at £340 per week, which includes £140 housing benefit, £60 child tax credit, £20 child benefit and £110 Jobseekers Allowance.

Weekly outgoings include £60 on food, £22.50 on TV, £3.50 on their TV licence plus utility bills, which the pair say they receive no help with.

According to Gina, their 47" flat screen TV is their only luxury, although Danny also admits to smoking roll-up cigarettes which are also paid for by tax payers.

Although neither have any qualifications, Danny, who has also worked as a shelf stacker in the past, says he is now looking for a job - although says he won't accept any old role.

'What is the point [of a minimum wage job]? You know, I'm not going to go to work to be worse off.' he argued.

Gina added: 'The main problem is is that the cost of living is going up so much but the wages are just the same. But people still expect you to live on the minimum wage - I don't think that's right.'

Although Danny says he does intend to get a job, the pair say they will carry on living on benefits until Danny gets a job that pays enough or 'the system changes'.

'We'll carry on until the system changes if Danny doesn't get a job,' says Gina.

Danny added: 'We can't be scroungers because the Government wouldn't give us the money or pay towards our living expenses if we didn't need it.'

Unfortunately for Danny and Gina, the change in the system they so dread isn't far away.

In a statement read out on This Morning, the Department for Work and Pensions said: 'We have to end the absurdity in the welfare system where people are better off claiming benefits than they are in work.

'Universal Credit will ensure that work will always pay and people who can work will no longer be able to count on the state to fund a life on benefits.'

Asked what they intend to do when the new system is introduced, Gina quickly replied: 'He'd have to get a job I suppose.'

LBC radio presenter and Sunday Express columnist, Nick Ferrari, who was present during the couple's appearance told them: 'What you two have done is a great shame. You've seen it as a lifestyle choice and it's something you choose to do. You shouldn't.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2270247/ITV-This-Morning-Couple-living-17k-handouts-say-working-minimum-wage-unfair.html#ixzz2JRnyzg6P (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2270247/ITV-This-Morning-Couple-living-17k-handouts-say-working-minimum-wage-unfair.html#ixzz2JRnyzg6P)
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Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 30, 2013, 09:08:16 am
Once again, it's having the child that protects them. The options, however, are not simple: the state will never reduce their benefits to the point where the child might suffer. Some argue that the child should therefore be placed in care, but the costs involved are significantly higher than paying them benefits. And that's at the root of the issues: the right-wing press can scream itself hoarse about benefit scroungers all it likes, but nothing substantial will change while children are in the picture.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on January 30, 2013, 09:13:56 am
In that case, why could he not work to earn their benefits? He could work a 40 hour week doing something useful for the community whilst he is unemployed. It's the idea that they receive all this money for doing nothing that I think really infuriates working people.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on January 30, 2013, 09:27:08 am
They can't do community work as that would interfere with their meetings with friends in the pub or the park, or whilst smoking, drinking and gambling, or watching their 50 inch Plasma Televisions or . . . . . . . . !   
 Z**   ZXZ     X:((    $drink$   $eu
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 30, 2013, 10:20:11 am
Why did they have a child if they could not afford it? Was it just so they could claim benefits? What's with this £22.50 a week on TV? I see plenty of channels with no subscriptions etc.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 30, 2013, 10:26:59 am
Quote
In that case, why could he not work to earn their benefits? He could work a 40 hour week doing something useful for the community whilst he is unemployed.

I completely agree.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 30, 2013, 10:35:58 am
" plus utility bills, which the pair say they receive no help with."

No help with!!!  17 grand a year sounds like a heck of a lot of help!  ???  &shake&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 30, 2013, 11:22:40 am
The £17k Gross figure is taken up almost entirely by the elements listed, (Food, Rent etc..)

The utility bills are growing all the time, I suspect that they are getting a 'little extra' from somewhere.

Now, although as Ian says, the benefits will not reduce radically, (coalition politicians will never agree to that).. the squeeze needs  be applied to a certain degree, and quickly, enough to ensure that this lad is highly motivated to stack shelves again!

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 30, 2013, 11:34:58 am
It's people's attitudes like that, that make me sick.   Once they take that stance they are on a downward spiral and will never have the notion to seek work.    Job seekers allowance is what it says it is and if this couple are not interested in taking a job if one can be found, then the JSA should be withdrawn immediately.        :rage:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on January 30, 2013, 12:38:17 pm
In that case, why could he not work to earn their benefits? He could work a 40 hour week doing something useful for the community whilst he is unemployed. It's the idea that they receive all this money for doing nothing that I think really infuriates working people.

Wouldn't work. Already tried and failed with the 'work fare' schemes, if he did do work for his job seekers allowance it would be under minimum wage - therefore taking away jobs from minimum wage workers who need them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on January 30, 2013, 12:45:38 pm
The big problem is that people like him are fouling it for the genuinely in need claimants.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on January 30, 2013, 01:32:12 pm
Update...
Danny Creamer has been offered and accepted a labouring job at £60 per day.

Due to his appearance on the daytime TV programme, a local employer was very impressed with his attitude, and made him an immediate offer.er says that this will actually be a cut of £2000 per year for his family, but at least he will be earning it!

What a remarkable turnaround!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 30, 2013, 03:09:07 pm
Full marks to Danny Creamer then,   it would be interesting to see if there is a follow up to this at a later date.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 30, 2013, 03:37:34 pm
Yes if he sticks at it, then great! $good$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on January 30, 2013, 10:24:51 pm
My thoughts too, but only time will tell.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Blongb on February 08, 2013, 07:28:40 pm
I’m minded of a meeting in India between Margaret Thatcher and Irinda Gandhi back in the 70’s. Mrs Gandhi was haranguing our P.M. because she thought we were not accepting enough immigrants from the sub-continent, especially with their overcrowding problem. It was finally resolved when Mrs Thatcher pointed out there were more people per square mile in the UK than there were in India. That of course was before we had mass immigration into the UK from the EU.

P.S.  B2R, I am not Left or Right wing or even a racist, merely a realist. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on February 09, 2013, 11:33:00 am
I would never dream you were any of those things Blongb, you are, however, wrong

To give you some idea where we are internationally, here is a list of all the countries with a population density greater than ours.
(These numbers are people per square KM)

174.359 Monaco
67.179 Hong Kong (China)
62.687 Singapore
22.727 Holy See
12.500 Malta
11.047 Bangladesh
10.000 Maldives
9.859 Bahrain
6.977 Barbados
6.500 Nauru
5.911   Mauritius
5.833   Taiwan
5.648   Gaza Strip & West Bank
4.801   Republic of Korea
4.752   Netherlands
4.500   San Marino
4.397   Puerto Rico
3.530   India
3.519   Lebanon
3.498   Japan
3.364   Rwanda
3.333   Tuvalu
3.139   Comoros
3.138   Belgium
3.089   El Salvador
2.975   Haiti
2.941   Grenada
2.924   Sri Lanka
2.902   Israel
2.889   Marshall Islands
2.636   Philippines
2.570   Burundi
2.564   St Vincent & The Grenadines
2.534   Trinidad & Tobago
2.467   Vietnam
2.454   United Kingdom

I find the fact that 4 out of 5 people in this country think we are "too crowded" much more worrying.  Clearly a lot of people are effectively brainwashed by the tacky, angry, tabloids venting their hate in order to sell units based on paranoia and fear. It's nothing new, but it's perhaps worse now than it's ever been.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on February 09, 2013, 01:41:40 pm
According to the records for 2012,  Monaco is the most densely populated country in the world and it has a total population of 35,000 with 15,255 people per square kilometre.
What has happened since to increase the population?








 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Blongb on February 09, 2013, 02:25:54 pm
I would never dream you were any of those things Blongb, you are, however, wrong

To give you some idea where we are internationally, here is a list of all the countries with a population density greater than ours.
(These numbers are people per square KM)


I find the fact that 4 out of 5 people in this country think we are "too crowded" much more worrying.  Clearly a lot of people are effectively brainwashed by the tacky, angry, tabloids venting their hate in order to sell units based on paranoia and fear. It's nothing new, but it's perhaps worse now than it's ever been.

Love to know where you got your figures B2R mine were somewhat different. Perhaps I was wrong to say the U.K. when it was in fact England that Maggie Thatcher was referring to, as it does account for 84% of the U.K.'s population. Beyond Europe, England's population density is among the highest in the world for major countries. England ranks third in density after Bangladesh (1,045 per sq km) and South Korea (498 per sq km).     http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2967374/England-is-most-crowded-country-in-Europe.html)    Love her or hate her Mrs Thatcher didn’t get her facts wrong.
As for tacky tabloids I am in complete agreement with you and stopped buying and reading them over 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on February 09, 2013, 02:29:29 pm
This is my source - it is from 2008, so doesn't take into account the most recent census but is an interesting perspective all the same

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/09/map_of_the_week_crowded_britai.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/09/map_of_the_week_crowded_britai.html)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Blongb on February 09, 2013, 02:35:16 pm
This is my source - it is from 2008, so doesn't take into account the most recent census but is an interesting perspective all the same

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/09/map_of_the_week_crowded_britai.html (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/09/map_of_the_week_crowded_britai.html)

Just goes to show how quickly thinks move on and we still have the Bulgarians and Rumanians to look forward to.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on February 10, 2013, 12:35:45 pm
I can understand as a member of the EU that there is freedom to move and work in any member country but I cannot understand why this country has to pay benefits to foreign workers families when the families are not actually living in this country!
As for anyone wishing to work here from outside the EU then that is OK providing that the job cannot be done by a person from the UK or even the EU.
As for anyone wishing to just live in the UK it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask them, as other countries do, to provide evidence that they are financially independant and they are aware that they will not be be entitled  to any benefits from the UK
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on February 21, 2013, 09:20:32 pm
I don't know if I should be posting the article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281172/Mother-11-having-400k-taxpayer-funded-house-built-says-in.html) under this heading or the one under Scum as both seem appropriate.        :rage: :rage:


I've sorted out the link, Hugo, as it seemed you had nested several URL bits together and they weren't displaying properly.

Ian
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on April 03, 2013, 09:10:21 pm
From the London evening Standard:

I can see why people might want to make Iain Duncan Smith live on a £53-a-week salary — but I can’t help wondering what it would achieve. The petition calling for the Work and Pensions Secretary to honour his infamous boast now has more than a quarter of a million signatures. That would be enough to have it debated  in Parliament if the Government’s e-petitions site hadn’t rejected the proposal as “offensive, joke or nonsense content”. If only such high standards applied to Government policy.

Perhaps the best we can hope for is a fly-on-the-wall documentary in which the callous minister swaps his £134,565 salary and four spare bedrooms for the harsh economies of a life on benefits. Still, only if he were to live that way month after month, unheralded and unheard, would the experiment have any merit. Reality does not work like reality TV — and the welfare debate has been distorted enough by the idea that everyone on benefits is living some sort of My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding high life.

There are noble arguments for ending welfare dependency but the Conservatives have been happy to fall back on “mistrust thy neighbour” arguments instead. Yesterday, adopting an absurd Mockney accent, George Osborne alluded to the shocking cases of the “£100,000 benefit claimants” — when he should really know that there are only five such families in Britain.

Such are the terms of the debate, it’s hardly a surprise that the Daily Mail would try to expose the impoverished market trader who challenged IDS in the first place. His crime? He claimed that terrible weather conditions had meant he could only open his stall for 21 days this year, “despite selling cold weather gear”.

It’s no wonder the public has such distorted ideas about welfare. According to a recent survey we estimate that 41 per cent of the welfare budget goes to unemployed people — when actually it’s three per cent. We also assume that 27 per cent of the welfare bill is claimed fraudulently. In reality it is less than one per cent.

The largest part of the welfare budget actually goes to pensioners — around 47 per cent. The next largest portion goes on in-work benefits for low-paid workers, the £29.91 billion spent on tax credits dwarfing the £4.91 billion spent on Jobseeker’s Allowance. In effect this means taxpayers are subsidising companies to pay their workers less than is required for them to live — which in turn limits demand in the economy.

These are the structural imbalances our ministers should be addressing. However, just as Osborne was giving his speech on making work pay, it was announced that the Government is considering lowering the minimum wage. Then again, it is far easier to blame poor people than it is to help them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on April 04, 2013, 01:56:23 pm
The figures don't tally with these ones?
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2014UKbn_12bc1n_40474849#ukgs302 (http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2014UKbn_12bc1n_40474849#ukgs302)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on April 04, 2013, 02:33:01 pm
I can't make a lo of sense of those, particularly their 'guestimates'.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: richardbroomhall on August 02, 2013, 05:44:07 am
There are those on "Workfare(fair?). They do not get offers of long term employment at the end of their stint as free labour for whichever firms (or Charities, even one Union that I know of) they're sent to so, that begs the question: what happens to the workers on part time contracts? Companies can get that constant source of free labour, so why bother to take on anybody they have to pod out money to?                                                                                                                                                                  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on September 04, 2013, 09:52:07 pm
Latest statistics show that over THIRTY PERCENT of households in Glasgow have no one between the ages of 16 and 65 in any kind of employment.

Liverpool is not far behind with 29% of households being entirely WORKLESS.  Report below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-23958763 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-23958763)

Who are the government fooling when they talk of recovery being underway?  We have entire cities and generations of families with no hope for the future.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2013, 10:07:42 am
Good news?

THE number of people in work in Wales increased by 14,000 over the last quarter as unemployment continued to fall, new figures showed today.

The Welsh jobless total was down to 117,000, a drop of 4,000 over the period and the same compared to last year.

But employment rose in the three months to September to 1.38m, some 22,000 more than a year ago.

Economic inactivity in Wales was 447,000, a drop of 19,000 over the year while the claimant count in October was 67,500, down 1,800 over the quarter and 12,800 over the year.

The number of people claiming Job Seekers Allowance in Wales has fallen by 1,800 since September 2013 and is 12,800 lower than in October last year.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/number-welsh-people-work-increases-6300036 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/number-welsh-people-work-increases-6300036)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on November 14, 2013, 11:52:16 pm
My two issues with those figures...

1, The quality of the jobs being taken are generally inferior (in my opinion) to the jobs and careers which were available in the past decades.

2, I find it very odd how the economic picture starts to 'miraculously' improve, just as the Govt start thinking about needing to be re-elected.   I don't buy it I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on November 15, 2013, 07:50:38 am
Quote
2, I find it very odd how the economic picture starts to 'miraculously' improve, just as the Govt start thinking about needing to be re-elected.   I don't buy it I'm afraid.

Very true. You'd think people would become used to seeing a gradual increase in warm 'n fuzzy news stories as we near an election, but it seems not.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on November 15, 2013, 08:29:00 am
Next Welsh Assembly election is in 2015.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on November 16, 2013, 01:33:55 am
They soon come round don't they?

More expense, more pointless campaigning, but at least kissing babies has been consigned to history.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on December 18, 2013, 02:37:04 pm
Wales unemployment falls by 7,000 to bring rate to 7.4%

Unemployment in Wales has fallen again and is no longer at a higher rate than the UK average for the first time in two-and-a-half years.

Figures from the Office for National Statistics show in the three months to October, unemployment fell 7,000 to 112,000.

It means the unemployment rate stands at 7.4%, which is on par with the UK average.

Welsh Secretary David Jones said the "private sector is driving the growth".

"This marked improvement in Wales' position in the labour market is a strong sign that, not only are we seeing an economy that is growing, but that growth is gathering real pace," he said.

"Wales's employment rate has increased by more than any other region in the UK, and the rate of economic inactivity has fallen by the largest amount of all the UK nations and regions.

"It is clear that it is the private sector that is driving this growth.

"However, there is no room for complacency. This week's announcement from Sharp of proposed josses at its Wrexham site was a sobering reminder that there are still considerable challenges ahead."

Eluned Parrott, Welsh Liberal Democrat business spokesperson, said: "The economy is picking up and people are starting to feel it, employment figures are continuing to move in the right direction, but there is still a long way to go."

UK unemployment fell by 99,000 in the three months to October, with 2.39m now out of work.

The unemployment rate fell to 7.4%, its lowest rate in the UK since the February-to-April period in 2009.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-25429981 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-25429981)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on July 07, 2014, 05:00:29 pm
Forget benefits and scrounging: this makes it all looks rather pale by comparison:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/06/defence_committee_carrier_badness/?page=2 (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/06/defence_committee_carrier_badness/?page=2)

Our nice, shiny new aircraft carriers not only cost eye-watering amounts to build but, it seems, the contracts have no basis in reality:

Quote
"The estimated cost based on a STOVL [only] design was around £2 billion ... The estimated procurement cost of the future aircraft carriers using the innovative, adaptable design is around £3 billion.

The "innovative, adaptable" ships are now projected by the National Audit Office to cost £5.35 billion, so it's plain that around a third of that, some £1.8bn, comes from them being "adaptable" rather than STOVL-only. Except that it turns out they aren't adaptable at all - fitting them with catapults and arrester gear would, apparently, cost as much as buying two entire new ships.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on July 07, 2014, 05:11:06 pm
I imagine that we'll be grateful we have them, nonetheless, should hostilities break out.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on July 07, 2014, 05:14:46 pm
Quote
I imagine that we'll be grateful we have them, nonetheless, should hostilities break out.

Have you read the entire article? It seems we might not have serviceable aircraft on them at all...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Yorkie on July 07, 2014, 05:31:35 pm
I understand the government have a secure contract for a new supply of emergency rubber bands should they be needed!  The weaponry will be augmented with a new supply of longbows.  Arrows will not be supplied until H and S training requirements have been implemented! 

 $walesflag$  $walesflag$  $walesflag$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on July 07, 2014, 09:30:18 pm
Quote
I imagine that we'll be grateful we have them, nonetheless, should hostilities break out.

Have you read the entire article? It seems we might not have serviceable aircraft on them at all...

Who managed this project?  Conwy Council?   :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on July 08, 2014, 07:58:18 am
 _))* _))* _))*

It would seem so :-)))
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on July 23, 2014, 02:45:42 pm
This article was reported in the Daily Express and I've seen critics writing that this is scaremongering and out of all  proportion, but is it?   It's absurd and an insult to every working person in this country that they give such large benefits to a person that has never contributed in any way to the UK



https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=daily+express+benefit+romanian&biw=1366&bih=651&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=R7nPU56EKoGn0QXioICoDw&ved=0CB8QqAI (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=daily+express+benefit+romanian&biw=1366&bih=651&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=R7nPU56EKoGn0QXioICoDw&ved=0CB8QqAI)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on August 27, 2014, 04:04:22 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-28939627 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-28939627)

Exploitation or simply showing the world what's happening?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SDQ on August 27, 2014, 07:59:29 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-28939627 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-28939627)

Exploitation or simply showing the world what's happening?


How can it be exploitation when they are being filmed by choice?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on August 28, 2014, 09:15:29 am
By not revealing the name and nature of the show
By filming people so riddled with illness/addiction they are incapable of making a reasoned choice
Bribing said people with alcohol and gifts in exchange for them doing/saying more outrageous antics

Few more but you get my point I'm sure.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on August 29, 2014, 12:50:23 am
I bet that those being filmed are as excited as hell,  seeing as the last lot that got filmed end up as Celebs on Big Brother.

'White D' as she is known, is likely never to need to work again..... that is, if she ever did?

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on August 29, 2014, 08:16:33 am
Quote
By not revealing the name and nature of the show
By filming people so riddled with illness/addiction they are incapable of making a reasoned choice
Bribing said people with alcohol and gifts in exchange for them doing/saying more outrageous antics

Few more but you get my point I'm sure.

It's interesting, because those things were exactly what were being said when Big Brother first arrived on our screens.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on August 29, 2014, 10:13:14 am
Big Brother is not purporting any one group though, where as this show is directly targeting benefit claimants.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on August 29, 2014, 11:03:04 am
I agree.  I think the point is that exploitative TV is fairly indiscriminate, just so long as the ratings are good.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on August 29, 2014, 11:50:49 am
I agree.  I think the point is that exploitative TV is fairly indiscriminate, just so long as the ratings are good.


Exploitative TV appears moronic, and only condones and encourages future generations to act the same or worse.

 $angry$ $angry$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on August 29, 2014, 11:53:51 am
True...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on August 29, 2014, 12:01:51 pm
I agree.  I think the point is that exploitative TV is fairly indiscriminate, just so long as the ratings are good.


Exploitative TV appears moronic, and only condones and encourages future generations to act the same or worse.

 $angry$ $angry$

Good point - take big brother as 1 example - the first one was raw but the ones after the fellow 'contestants' all took their cues from the earlier on and so it went until it became a total carnival
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on August 29, 2014, 12:43:25 pm
Good point - take big brother as 1 example - the first one was raw but the ones after the fellow 'contestants' all took their cues from the earlier on and so it went until it became a total carnival
Agreed.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on August 29, 2014, 11:56:46 pm
We are all in agreement about Big Brother then, in all it's forms.
It is indeed garbage.

But, I can't seem to get my wife to agree, as she is entirely fascinated with it.   &shake& &shake&
Title: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Michael on October 06, 2014, 08:49:12 pm
   Sorry, I have just reread my post. I should have said SteveH --- not SteveR.

   So I spotted my error. That;s what the papers proof readers should do, if they employ any
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 06, 2014, 09:07:38 pm
   Sorry, I have just reread my post. I should have said SteveH --- not SteveR.
   So I spotted my error. That;s what the papers proof readers should do, if they employ any
No problem Mike,....knew who you meant, ....sorry about the mix up, I get my info from the newspapers on line, and it was from memory that I advised you about the change, I remember seeing the 40mph and later the alteration to 30mph...so assumed it was a misprint  on line so to speak. 
So your comments still stand.. $good$ 

PS. Mike just finished above reply, and have found the paper, it says "restored to 40mph limit last week" there you go.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 09, 2014, 04:26:02 pm
Residents left to maintain 'wild' Old Colwyn graveyard themselves

A spokesperson for the church said a groundskeeper was employed by the interest on church savings, but that money dried up after the economic crash, and the Parish of Colwyn “cannot afford ongoing maintenance costs”.

“We don’t have to do it, we just do it, and we do it out of respect.”
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx)

This story made me think.....How many are claiming benefits year in year out, or on community service who could/should be helping out in situations like this.
How many cut backs on services have we had, how many are coming, I am not suggesting we take someones job, but they could be helping the gardeners or extra street cleaning etc. gaining a work ethic, (I am trying to keep a straight face at the moment) this is an underused human resource.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 09, 2014, 04:46:30 pm
Residents left to maintain 'wild' Old Colwyn graveyard themselves

A spokesperson for the church said a groundskeeper was employed by the interest on church savings, but that money dried up after the economic crash, and the Parish of Colwyn “cannot afford ongoing maintenance costs”.

“We don’t have to do it, we just do it, and we do it out of respect.”
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx)

This story made me think.....How many are claiming benefits year in year out, or on community service who could/should be helping out in situations like this.
How many cut backs on services have we had, how many are coming, I am not suggesting we take someones job, but they could be helping the gardeners or extra street cleaning etc. gaining a work ethic, (I am trying to keep a straight face at the moment) this is an underused human resource.

Have you ever considered that some people may be claiming benefits for a legitimate reason? Or are you assuming they are all frauds and are capable of maintaining a grave yard?
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Hugo on October 09, 2014, 05:03:18 pm
Residents left to maintain 'wild' Old Colwyn graveyard themselves

A spokesperson for the church said a groundskeeper was employed by the interest on church savings, but that money dried up after the economic crash, and the Parish of Colwyn “cannot afford ongoing maintenance costs”.

“We don’t have to do it, we just do it, and we do it out of respect.”
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx)

This story made me think.....How many are claiming benefits year in year out, or on community service who could/should be helping out in situations like this.
How many cut backs on services have we had, how many are coming, I am not suggesting we take someones job, but they could be helping the gardeners or extra street cleaning etc. gaining a work ethic, (I am trying to keep a straight face at the moment) this is an underused human resource.

Have you ever considered that some people may be claiming benefits for a legitimate reason? Or are you assuming they are all frauds and are capable of maintaining a grave yard?

I was expecting such a response from BTR so I'm not surprised by his usual comments.     Steve is not saying that they are all frauds so why are you so defensive about it?    Why can't we use their skill and labour to help out in situations like Steve has described, what's so bad about using the best untapped resource we have and after all it would give those people something worth while to do.
I'm just sick and tired of do gooders quoting human rights, health and safety and not suggesting anything constructive in it's place.
David Cameron is already suggesting using the young unemployed to do such work but I'm sorry that will never materialise as Conservatives will be kicked out of office hopefully next year.   
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Yorkie on October 09, 2014, 05:10:46 pm
Hugo said: 
David Cameron is already suggesting using the young unemployed to do such work but I'm sorry that will never materialise as Conservatives will be kicked out of office hopefully next year.   

And if he is kicked out we will get yet another Government, with promises and polices galore, promises that will not be met and policues that will do nothing to get us out of the s****y state we are in.
 WWW   WWW   WWW
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 09, 2014, 05:51:02 pm
Quote
   Have you ever considered that some people may be claiming benefits for a legitimate reason? Or are you assuming they are all frauds and are capable of maintaining a grave yard? 
Hi B2R .... I try my best never to assume...... there is legitimate manpower not being used, and I did mention work "ethic" it is very easy to get out of the habit of working......The "frauds" or long term (fit) unemployed, this is difficult to explain, my own feelings, probable sound old fashioned, but there is always work out there, and I am using my own experiences in saying that.
I also believe anyone can volunteer there services without affecting benefits.
"You are considered to be a volunteer if you do not receive payment for the work you do (apart from expenses), are not volunteering because of a legal obligation (such as a sentence), help out a non-profit making organisation such as a charity or help someone who is not a family member."
It seems they encourage it....
"Volunteering can offer a rewarding way to make the most of time spent on benefits. Not only can you gain new skills but you can also gather useful experience and contacts which may help you to find a job"

original link...
.http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/139213/residents-left-to-maintain-wild-old-colwyn-graveyard-themselves.aspx)


Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Hugo on October 09, 2014, 06:28:38 pm
Hugo said: 
David Cameron is already suggesting using the young unemployed to do such work but I'm sorry that will never materialise as Conservatives will be kicked out of office hopefully next year.   

And if he is kicked out we will get yet another Government, with promises and polices galore, promises that will not be met and policues that will do nothing to get us out of the s****y state we are in.
 WWW   WWW   WWW

That's Politics for you Yorkie and it's not going to change.  They are all the same, they criticise one another but do not say anything constructive about what they are going to do.  Cameron has done so many U turns that it's a wonder he's not dizzy.   
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Hugo on October 09, 2014, 06:40:04 pm
Steve, there are plenty of worth while causes that the fit and healthy unemployed could do.    The Churches do not have the money to maintain the graveyards so any chanting by the do gooders that they are taking jobs away from others is unconstructive rubbish. 
The Baptist Church Cemetery in Glanwydden is another cemetery that has gone wild and it was last tidied up over 30 years ago by a team of volunteers.  I was in St Agnes Cemetery in Conwy today and that is in a bad condition too.
It must be a rewarding feeling and a sense of purpose when eyesores like we have mentioned are improved and I fail to see how anyone can disagree.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 09, 2014, 07:09:01 pm
Hi Hugo, Agreed, there must be list a mile long of organisations or groups looking for help, maybe they should put up a notice in their local job centre .
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Fester on October 09, 2014, 09:49:33 pm
Born to Run,  I think that people on benefits, (any kind of benefits), should be rounded up and organised into 'Forced Labour' gangs.  It would be sensible, from a security aspect' if they were all chained together.

Any food given should be purely on a 'performance first' basis, as a reward, in the interests of maximizing productivity.
We could also address the local dog problem, by utilising any Dobermans or Alsatians as an additional layer of security, to keep any dissenters in line.

I accept of course that there are many benefit claimants who are too infirm to participate in a strenuous way.
They could be employed as 'spotters', thereby reporting any slackers to the powers that be.

You know it makes sense.



Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2014, 07:48:47 am
Quote
That's Politics for you Yorkie and it's not going to change.  They are all the same, they criticise one another but do not say anything constructive about what they are going to do.  Cameron has done so many U turns that it's a wonder he's not dizzy.   

I wonder if that's not simply the nature of modern politics? Cameron (and I'm in no way defending him) couldn't implement many of the Tory ideas, partly because his majority meant he was in a political coalition, partly because of the state of the national finances, owing to the bankers (I think that's spelt correctly - but perhaps not). With the worrying news that UKIP has now won its first Parliamentary seat, and slashed the majority of a previously secure Labour seat, it seems that the British need for novelty as opposed to stability is gaining ground.

If any one party achieves a huge majority then we have to prepare for extremist political moves, and that's good for no one.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2014, 07:56:41 am
Fester's satirical response to B2R masks the fact that there is a growing divide in the UK at the moment between those dependent on the state and those either able to work in good jobs or whose financial situation is secure, and who don't have to work at all, in the accepted sense of the word. If that divide increases, then the voters will move to the edges, and seek to elect candidates whose rhetoric is more extreme. We think we've learned a lot since Hitler and that such a thing could never happen again, but I'm far less sure. If sufficient number of people feel disenfranchised, if they see no worthwhile future for themselves and if the DFM and its ilk keep fuelling immigration hysteria, along with all its other lies, innuendo and blatant dishonesty, then the country as a whole could move sharply to the right and left, and that could mean changes which no one in their right mind would want to see.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 10, 2014, 09:35:10 am
Hi Ian,   As I read your first post, I am afraid the first thing I thought of was, if were not careful we will end up with another "Hitler situation" .....and then I got to your second post...to late.

The "growing divide" there is nothing there to disagree with, however it does bring up how we got to this state, my first thoughts are, we have let down the younger generations with a poorer education, lack of training,and less job prospects, and a welfare state that encourages laziness and disrespect and "no worthwhile future" .
The number of youngsters today who do not have the basic tools or willpower  to find the elusive jobs is a disgrace, and I do not see any change for the better, so which ever party is in power they better get a move on.

This discussion started over a group of older people who are trying maintain a graveyard stating “We don’t have to do it, we just do it, and we do it out of respect.” I think that says a lot, get people moving, doing something worthwhile, and not being paid to sit on their backsides.


Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 10, 2014, 09:36:50 am
Was Fester's response satirical? I've been reading the DFM too much, sounded perfectly reasonable to what I read in the comments section!

Ian is completely right though of course, what we would consider normal, educated, well rounded members of society are being driven into a mass hysteria by the right wing press. A couple of years ago the 'bigots and racists' (my words) were laughable tattooed bulldog toting skin heads. Now I'm seeing pensioners and men in suits with EXACTLY the same views.

It's worrying
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 10, 2014, 09:39:57 am
Hi Ian,   As I read your first post, I am afraid the first thing I thought of was, if were not careful we will end up with another "Hitler situation" .....and then I got to your second post...to late.

The "growing divide" there is nothing there to disagree with, however it does bring up how we got to this state, my first thoughts are, we have let down the younger generations with a poorer education, lack of training,and less job prospects, and a welfare state that encourages laziness and disrespect and "no worthwhile future" .
The number of youngsters today who do not have the basic tools or willpower  to find the elusive jobs is a disgrace, and I do not see any change for the better, so which ever party is in power they better get a move on.

This discussion started over a group of older people who are trying maintain a graveyard stating “We don’t have to do it, we just do it, and we do it out of respect.” I think that says a lot, get people moving, doing something worthwhile, and not being paid to sit on their backsides.

Steve, your points are admirable but the key word as you've said is 'volunteer' we can't force people to be how we want them to be, or how we think they should be. If they want to volunteer that is brilliant, however the young feckless and disenfranchised would be quite unlikely to volunteer in a community they feel they don't belong to and to a country and government that does nothing for them.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: DaveR on October 10, 2014, 09:42:09 am
The "growing divide" there is nothing there to disagree with, however it does bring up how we got to this state, my first thoughts are, we have let down the younger generations with a poorer education, lack of training,and less job prospects, and a welfare state that encourages laziness and disrespect and "no worthwhile future" .
The number of youngsters today who do not have the basic tools or willpower  to find the elusive jobs is a disgrace, and I do not see any change for the better, so which ever party is in power they better get a move on.
I agree.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 10, 2014, 09:48:10 am
Hi B2R...    "Volunteering"  maybe it is time to make volunteering compulsory . &shake&
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: DaveR on October 10, 2014, 09:53:07 am
...to a country and government that does nothing for them.
...apart from pay their Benefits? They appear to be quite happy to let the 'community they don't belong to' pay all their bills? :P



Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2014, 10:38:50 am
I think that's too simplistic, Dave.  There are feckless layabouts - sure, but I'm not confident they're an especially large group in overall terms. TBH, what I'm thinking about is the group of hard working young folk, who are paid a pittance for many hours of hard work.  Neither of our boys have ever claimed any sort of benefits, yet even our youngest - who's a project engineering officer for National Grid - can barely afford a mortgage and has to rent in a house share.

Greed is at the root of a lot of issues in our society, and I suspect what we're witnessing is a cultural failure - not simply a political one.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 10, 2014, 11:09:05 am
Hi B2R...    "Volunteering"  maybe it is time to make volunteering compulsory . &shake&

They did that... It was called slavery  &shake&
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Fester on October 10, 2014, 11:26:10 am
Hi B2R...    "Volunteering"  maybe it is time to make volunteering compulsory . &shake&

They did that... It was called slavery  &shake&

I see that you are all coming round to my original thought.
Scarce Resources - Volunteering - Compulsory Volunteering - Exploitation - Slavery.
It's a path that is a direct one, also the edges between the different stages are quite 'blurred'  (Where would Zero Hours Contracts or Working at Poundland for free, in order to keep benefits slot in?)

More fundamentally, I look at the divide and degradation of society and I also believe it is a inherent lack of RESPECT that has accelerated it.   I firmly believe that the turning point was when corporal punishment was abolished in schools... and the respect/fear equation was thrown into chaos.

Now there is a contentious topic to discuss!
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 10, 2014, 11:36:36 am
Yes Fester since Child abuse has stopped in schools the world is surely a much worse place  :o

On your whitterings about the 'degradation' of society

"“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

That's not a quote from you or anyone else on here, that is a quote from Socrates in about 400BC!

Nothing is new  >>>
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 10, 2014, 11:43:13 am
I watched a program last night on benefits ...Great Yarmouth were most of the work is seasonal

One lad on benefits for 6 years, who said he wanted to work, would do anything, was sent for barmans job at the holiday camp, he did not have a clue, nobody had prepared him for the interview, a small thing but, he turned up, looking like a tramp, and could not answer the most basic interview questions, he did however get the job? but without any workplace experience lasted two weeks.!

A woman on benefits for over 25 years, had to leave her 2 bed house, because of the bedroom tax, and move in with a friend in a similar situation, they blamed this on pensioners, "why do they get pensions and winter fuel allowance, when they could wrap themselves up in a blanket", they were being serious.

A 17 year old girl with a 3 month old baby, and boyfriend who had never worked, sat all day watching their 50 TV and talking on their contracted, top of the range mobile, her dream for the future....her new baby girl was going to marry prince George.

If we do not educate and prepare, this is what you get.
.


Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Fester on October 10, 2014, 12:00:35 pm
Yes Fester since Child abuse has stopped in schools the world is surely a much worse place  :o


Ah Dave, as usual, you only see 'black and white'., whereas the real world exists in the gaps between your blinkered views.

I'm afraid that some examples of child abuse did exist at the time of corporal punishment.  But that might have been 0.1% of instances (at a wild guess)
However, most corporal punishment served as guidance,  discipline, or a means of prevention.

Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 10, 2014, 12:18:26 pm
Quote
"However, most corporal punishment served as guidance,  discipline, or a means of prevention."
Quote
" I also believe it is a inherent lack of RESPECT that has accelerated it.   I firmly believe that the turning point was when corporal punishment was abolished in schools."

I have said and thought this for a long time, but put it down to the generation gap.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Yorkie on October 10, 2014, 01:13:09 pm
I do not believe that discipline can be improved by the use of corporal punishment.  Punishment creates resentment and resentment will create a lack of respect.  Just a vicious circle is the result.

Most children can be trained, if that is the right word, by example, understanding, explanation and kindness.
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Fester on October 10, 2014, 02:03:39 pm
I do not believe that discipline can be improved by the use of corporal punishment.  Punishment creates resentment and resentment will create a lack of respect.  Just a vicious circle is the result.

Most children can be trained, if that is the right word, by example, understanding, explanation and kindness.
 ZXZ

Spare the rod, spoil the child.... that's what I always say!   $smack$ $smack$
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 10, 2014, 02:08:51 pm
I do not believe that discipline can be improved by the use of corporal punishment.  Punishment creates resentment and resentment will create a lack of respect.  Just a vicious circle is the result.
Most children can be trained, if that is the right word, by example, understanding, explanation and kindness.

I agree Yorkie..."Most Children"
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2014, 02:17:02 pm
So we're coming back to the most pertinent issue: the inability of the parent to parent. Once again, for whatever reason, we return to the the simple fact that many parents are simply incompetent.

Quote
If we do not educate and prepare, this is what you get.

But we're living as a society in denial. There is a very real body of opinion that denies the existence of stupidity - or the lack of intelligence. Is it not possible that some people are simply ineducable?
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 10, 2014, 02:36:46 pm
Not if you are saying this is ONLY happening in today's society and didn't happen before.

People have not got stupider as the years have gone on, if anything they have got more intelligent
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 10, 2014, 03:31:44 pm
Not if you are saying this is ONLY happening in today's society and didn't happen before.
People have not got stupider as the years have gone on, if anything they have got more intelligent
I wish they would show it.....if what is on television and watched these days is anything to go by, we are ........
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Fester on October 10, 2014, 03:35:30 pm
Not if you are saying this is ONLY happening in today's society and didn't happen before.

People have not got stupider as the years have gone on, if anything they have got more intelligent

Spend a day with me, on the Pier in high season, you might change your mind about that.
Apart from the most upsetting and sickening examples of bad parenting, (which I often wonder if I should report to the authorities)..
You will also hear such classics as..
'Scuse me mate,  when did they build the Great Orme?'

'I came here a few years ago, can I have another jar of that STUFF, I bought for HIM?'

For any further evidence required, simply tune in to any episode of Jeremy Kyle.





Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2014, 03:37:43 pm
Quote
Not if you are saying this is ONLY happening in today's society and didn't happen before.

I'm not. But I suspect societies in days gone by were generally more supportive and helpful towards each other, and - in particular -  towards extended family members than they are now. The other major change is that single parenting is now seen almost as a status symbol by some. Single parents were largely unheard of prior to 1960...

Quote
People have not got stupider as the years have gone on, if anything they have got more intelligent

That's actually incorrect. There is a substantial body of research that seems to be indicating that evolution might be selecting towards the norm. In other words, people are not becoming more intelligent - merely averaging out at about 100 in IQ terms. In real terms that means we might be losing the really unintelligent, but we're also losing the really bright. Extremely worrying in the longer term.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2014, 03:38:38 pm
I see Fester's just made a similarly depressing point.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 10, 2014, 03:53:22 pm
Well perhaps what I mean to say is people are certainly better educated - literacy rates for example have obviously gone up. Like you say though we are being exposed to stupider people through the media where as years ago these empty heads wouldn't have got the time of day.

Jeremy Kyle, Every way is Essex, Geordie Slappers and those other shows only pick their prey from the numpty tree.

Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Hugo on October 10, 2014, 04:12:36 pm
As much as I have tried to understand BTR's comments, I cannot for the life of me understand what objection he holds to able bodied people on benefits being made to do some constructive community work.
What on earth is wrong with that?     It would give them some purpose and sense of achievement and at the same time the community that is unable to fund these projects would benefit from their labour.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Gwynant on October 10, 2014, 04:57:51 pm
Quote
" I also believe it is a inherent lack of RESPECT that has accelerated it.   I firmly believe that the turning point was when corporal punishment was abolished in schools."
      As someone who was born right at the end of the 2nd World War and also was brought up with my brother in a single parent family with plenty of discipline, I think that one of the major contributory factors to the current  "inherent lack of respect" was the abolition of National Service in 1960.
      I started work in the 60's and worked in nine different jobs till I retired in 2009 on my 65th birthday. I missed "the call-up" by a couple of years and at the risk of sounding like a retired Major-General, ("If I had you in my regiment, you'd be a different man, my boy!"), a sense of respect for your elders and and a sense of collective responsibility never did anyone any harm and that sense was instilled during National Service, however basic.
      Another factor is unemployment, in the 60's you could leave a job on a Friday and always find new employment on the following Monday, and any non-medical drugs that were readily available at the time were for recreational use only and not providing a permanent career as a dealer/pusher or an excuse for being unable to work. The "Nanny State" has a lot to answer for, but I do recognise and understand the sense of hopelessness that kids today have with no hope of permanent employment unless you have "qualifications", and zero-hour contracts etc. do not help either.
      I realise that this view doesn't provide any solution to the problem but I feel that "reality shows" such as "Benefits Street", Jeremy Kyle etc. only exacerbate the problem and fuel it further, and do more harm than good in bringing it to the public's notice.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Merddin Emrys on October 10, 2014, 05:36:12 pm
I have said for years that the wrong people are breeding, not to improve the race but to get benefits!
I expect that b2r may disagree....
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 10, 2014, 05:53:41 pm
Quote
I have said for years that the wrong people are breeding, not to improve the race but to get benefits!

There is some evidence to support that view, albeit largely anecdotal.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: snowcap on October 10, 2014, 10:21:10 pm
I have been reading all the comments about how stupid the young of today are. My elders used to say exactly the same thing in my younger days."They should have kept the national service going that would have sorted them out" That was the answer, I worked along side quite a few men who did their national service and there were quite a few stupid men amongst them , so that was not the answer. Stupidity as been about for ever and a day and will continue for ever and a day. I may be stupid but there for the grace of god go I. Who ever solves the issue will make a fortune. Lets face it it,s not only the younger generation     
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 11, 2014, 08:11:46 am
I'm never quite sure how serious F is being when he says things such as

Quote
More fundamentally, I look at the divide and degradation of society and I also believe it is a inherent lack of RESPECT that has accelerated it.   I firmly believe that the turning point was when corporal punishment was abolished in schools... and the respect/fear equation was thrown into chaos.

if only because, as several have noted, this sentiment has been expressed since Socrates was around, so the only conclusion it's possible to draw with any certainty is that as we age we become less tolerant of the very things we all used to do as youngsters.

Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Hugo on October 11, 2014, 10:10:13 am
I'm never quite sure how serious F is being when he says things such as

Quote
More fundamentally, I look at the divide and degradation of society and I also believe it is a inherent lack of RESPECT that has accelerated it.   I firmly believe that the turning point was when corporal punishment was abolished in schools... and the respect/fear equation was thrown into chaos.

if only because, as several have noted, this sentiment has been expressed since Socrates was around, so the only conclusion it's possible to draw with any certainty is that as we age we become less tolerant of the very things we all used to do as youngsters.

I think that sentiment is true and hope that I am not turning into a grumpy old man.    The only difference between the generations nowadays is that we have an element of work shy people who don't want to work but at the same time expect to be paid for doing nothing and will be content to live off the backs of those people who are prepared to work for a living to support them self and their families
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 11, 2014, 10:23:16 am
Quote
we have an element of work shy people who don't want to work but at the same time expect to be paid for doing nothing

I agree they do make up a proportion of those on benefits and some may lie and cheat the system, but I'm not sure how you deal with that. Several questions occur: how do we identify these people, what action do we take to deal with them once identified and what fraction of those dependent on the state do they really represent?

Liars and cheats exist everywhere. There are firms trading today that routinely lie and cheat and I will shortly name one such firm, trading in Cardiff, whose directors are liars and whose business practices are disgraceful. But it's easy to take a swipe at the more vulnerable, when major companies are doing similar things with their tax arrangements, yet never seem to feature in the DFM.

Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 11, 2014, 10:28:46 am
Quote
The "growing divide" there is nothing there to disagree with, however it does bring up how we got to this state, my first thoughts are, we have let down the younger generations with a poorer education, lack of training,and less job prospects, and a welfare state that encourages laziness and disrespect and "no worthwhile future" .
The number of youngsters today who do not have the basic tools or willpower  to find the elusive jobs is a disgrace, and I do not see any change for the better, so which ever party is in power they better get a move on.
Quote
One lad on benefits for 6 years, who said he wanted to work, would do anything, was sent for a barmans job at the holiday camp, he did not have a clue, nobody had prepared him for the interview, a small thing but, he turned up, looking like a tramp, and could not answer the most basic interview questions, he did however get the job? but without any workplace experience lasted two weeks.!

My opinion of paying people to do nothing has not changed, the present system is a form of training to create the people we are complaining about today, the mold has to be broken sooner than later.
Watching the lad above, I felt angry, at 20 years of age he did not know how to go for an interview, let alone what was expected of him when he got there, who's fault is that?
I would like to commend Barclays for their recent TV campaign and website "Lifeskills" a small step in the right direction......https://www.barclayslifeskills.com/getstarted/?campaign=9955&chnnl=PSB&mpch=ads (https://www.barclayslifeskills.com/getstarted/?campaign=9955&chnnl=PSB&mpch=ads)

PM announces new work training schemes for young people and a new era of apprenticeships
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-announces-new-work-training-schemes-for-young-people-and-a-new-era-of-apprenticeships (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-announces-new-work-training-schemes-for-young-people-and-a-new-era-of-apprenticeships)
There are 850,000 young people unemployed, and the above scheme has a 100,000 places.?

Just because they are out of work, should not mean they sit on their bum's doing nothing,... and getting paid for it....give them the opportunity to grow.




Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Fester on October 11, 2014, 07:34:57 pm
I'm never quite sure how serious F is being when he says things such as

Quote
More fundamentally, I look at the divide and degradation of society and I also believe it is a inherent lack of RESPECT that has accelerated it.   I firmly believe that the turning point was when corporal punishment was abolished in schools... and the respect/fear equation was thrown into chaos.

if only because, as several have noted, this sentiment has been expressed since Socrates was around, so the only conclusion it's possible to draw with any certainty is that as we age we become less tolerant of the very things we all used to do as youngsters.

On this occasion Ian, I was being 100% serious.
However, on re-reading my post I would amend it slightly, to say it was not THE turning point, but certainly A turning point, or a major factor.
I say this because, I always knew as a kid that if I was cheeky or disruptive in class, (and I was renowned for it) there was a clip round the ear, or a sharp rap across the palm with a cane.   So I knew my boundaries, and I knew which teachers NOT to go too far with.
I also got summoned down from the bus shelter roof opposite my house by a policeman, who tugged me across the road by my ear.... delivered me to my Mum, who subsequently clouted the back of my leg for bringing this trouble home!

So, I knew to RESPECT boundaries with most teachers, all policemen, and most definitely my Mum, for FEAR of the consequences,
My Dad and Grandma never resorted to a smack, and because of this I was quite disrespectful and cheeky to both... a thing which I immensely regret (in terms of my Grandma) to my dying day.



Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 13, 2014, 10:57:18 am
Quote
I would like to commend Barclays for their recent TV campaign and website "Lifeskills" a small step in the right direction......https://www.barclayslifeskills.com/getstarted/?campaign=9955&chnnl=PSB&mpch=ads (https://www.barclayslifeskills.com/getstarted/?campaign=9955&chnnl=PSB&mpch=ads)



Lovely chaps those guys at Barclays - hang on that's not the same monsters who conned everyone in the libor scandal and more recently this http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/city-news/barclays-hit-new-scandal-dark-3773059? (http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/city-news/barclays-hit-new-scandal-dark-3773059?)

Because they seem so caring and nice with their little publicity stunt don't they   ???


Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 13, 2014, 11:03:44 am
A lot of you seem to have the same beliefs on the welfare state as a certain Ali G

Ali G meets Tony Benn - Top Quality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YYroSudUs#)

Ali G was a spoof - created to be ignorant and very stupid.
Disappointing that some of you are crediting some of things he says as serious arguments!

There is no room for caricatures nowadays - just like the Pub Landlord who was meant to ridicule bigoted views, people thought he was being serious and couldn't wait to agree with him!

If Alf Garnett was on TV nowadays you lot would be calling on him to stand for parliament.   &shake&

Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Fester on October 13, 2014, 11:27:55 am
Strange then B2R, that opinion seems to be divided then.

You think one thing, and everyone else seems to think the opposite!
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 13, 2014, 11:40:27 am
Quote
I would like to commend Barclays for their recent TV campaign and website "Lifeskills" a small step in the right direction......https://www.barclayslifeskills.com/getstarted/?campaign=9955&chnnl=PSB&mpch=ads (https://www.barclayslifeskills.com/getstarted/?campaign=9955&chnnl=PSB&mpch=ads)
Quote
Lovely chaps those guys at Barclays - hang on that's not the same monsters who conned everyone in the libor scandal.
Because they seem so caring and nice with their little publicity stunt don't they   ???

Hi B2R.....I have been out of touch for quite a few years, and took the Barclays gesture in good faith,.. still do on the basis of what we have been discussing, and the importance of the subject.
I seem to have been drawn towards the younger unemployed and their future prospects, but the original post was this example ........"why do a group of senior citizens have to struggle, to voluntary maintain the graveyard, when there is manpower available,"..... the long term unemployed who week in week out claim benefits and that they  cannot find work,...... is it time to set a limit,(6months?) and a system where they have to "volunteer" their time and skills, or lose their benefits.

Sorry about bold type  Ian? Your wish is my command :-))


Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 13, 2014, 11:53:52 am
No

Because that wouldn't work Steve

"Lose their benefits"

What are they going to do then? Starve? Let their Children starve? Are we going to allow that?
Are they? Or will they turn to crime and start burgling and mugging good working people like me and you Steve?
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 13, 2014, 11:58:59 am
Quote
Ali G was a spoof - created to be ignorant and very stupid.

Not entirely sure about that. He was, however, clearly meant as a parody of those who were ignorant.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Hugo on October 13, 2014, 12:23:44 pm
No

Because that wouldn't work Steve

"Lose their benefits"

What are they going to do then? Starve? Let their Children starve? Are we going to allow that?
Are they? Or will they turn to crime and start burgling and mugging good working people like me and you Steve?

If you get JSA or the equivalent then I thought that you were supposed to be available for work.    If you choose to refuse work knowing the consequences then that is the decision of the claimant surely?
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: Ian on October 13, 2014, 12:28:44 pm
Quote
"Lose their benefits"

What are they going to do then? Starve? Let their Children starve? Are we going to allow that? Are they? Or will they turn to crime and start burgling and mugging good working people like me and you Steve?

It's worth looking at Britain prior to the welfare state for answers. In Dickens' time, the workhouse was the only option, and many died in work-related incidents, or starved to death. In the UK the Children Act currently makes it impossible to stop benefits to families with children and those who think we spend too much on welfare should be aware that we spend in total less than half the average of the developed world.

The US is the other place to watch. All the same arguments regarding the work-shy, single parent families, too many benefits, etc. exist over there and what I personally find most interesting are two things: in one of the most technologically advanced countries there is a marked lack of research which clearly establishes links between welfare payments and reluctance to work. The second thing is that the US has experimented with alternatives, and frequently both proponents and opponents used exactly the same research to prove their points. In other words, although there may well be strong perceptions about the effects of benefits, and occasional, cherry-picked examples of ne'er do wells and spongers the truth is that there is no solid evidence to prove one way or another the effects of a welfare system on the desire or otherwise to work.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 13, 2014, 12:33:29 pm
Because that wouldn't work Steve
"Lose their benefits"
What are they going to do then? Starve? Let their Children starve? Are we going to allow that?
Are they? Or will they turn to crime and start burgling and mugging good working people like me and you Steve?
I am not saying "lose" but..." a system where they have to "volunteer" their time and skills, or lose their benefits."
Starving children ..of course not, but is that not social welfare rather than unemployment benefit.
The turning to crime issue is very real, but is that not part of what we have created, and in a sense "being held to ransom"
I have a little knowledge of benefits abroad....I believe in Spain if you become unemployed, the amount of benefit and the time you can claim is based on what you have paid in, other countries have various systems, but why do they all want to come here.

Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: born2run on October 13, 2014, 01:46:25 pm
This is like Daily Mail roulette. We've gone from unemployment benefits to immigration in one swift spin.
Title: Re: Re: Everything to do with Colwyn Bay
Post by: SteveH on October 13, 2014, 02:18:27 pm
This is like Daily Mail roulette. We've gone from unemployment benefits to immigration in one swift spin.
Sorry B2R, do not want to go there, used only to make a point on the benefit issue.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 14, 2014, 12:40:46 pm
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3188/Perceptions-are-not-reality-the-top-10-we-get-wrong.aspx (https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3188/Perceptions-are-not-reality-the-top-10-we-get-wrong.aspx)

An interesting article showing how WRONG most people's perceptions are

"3.       Job-seekers allowance: 29% of people think we spend more on JSA than pensions, when in fact we spend 15 times more on pensions (£4.9bn vs £74.2bn)[iv].
4.       Benefit fraud: people estimate that 34 times more benefit money is claimed fraudulently than official estimates: the public think that £24 out of every £100 spent on benefits is claimed fraudulently, compared with official estimates of £0.70 per £100[v].
7.       Immigration and ethnicity: the public think that 31% of the population are immigrants, when the official figures are 13%[viii]. Even estimates that attempt to account for illegal immigration suggest a figure closer to 15%.  There are similar misperceptions on ethnicity: the average estimate is that Black and Asian people make up 30% of the population, when it is actually 11% (or 14% if we include mixed and other non-white ethnic groups)[ix].

This is my personal favourite

9.       Benefit bill: people are most likely to think that capping benefits at £26,000 per household will save most money from a list provided (33% pick this option), over twice the level that select raising the pension age to 66 for both men and women or stopping child benefit when someone in the household earns £50k+.  In fact, capping household benefits is estimated to save £290m[xi], compared with £5bn[xii] for raising the pension age and £1.7bn[xiii] for stopping child benefit for wealthier households.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 14, 2014, 01:58:23 pm
Very interesting article, makes you think "look before you leap"

A personal thought from my past, I would have put money on the government changing the retirement age for those born in 1946/47 the post war baby boom, it would have saved them millions or even billions, and I am still pleasantly surprised that they did not.
A small point I would like to make on pensions, is although it appears to be a very high figure, £74bn.those receiving pensions have paid in to the system in some cases, for up to 50 years.
In Mrs S's case, her pension age was raised from 60 to 67 a loss of approx £35.000 pa.over the 7years, there is a thought that when you start the "contract" for a pension, they should not be able to "move the goal posts" later.?

Disability pensions,....later &shake&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 14, 2014, 02:38:04 pm
A lot of the things people perceive are down to the DFM...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 14, 2014, 04:12:34 pm
A lot of the things people perceive are down to the DFM...

DFM....? sorry not sure.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 14, 2014, 04:22:40 pm
Stands for the Daily Flipping Mail  $good$

They follow a set pattern of scare mongering stories daily - usually involving immigrants and the jobless

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792030/jeremy-hunt-warns-ebola-outbreak-deadly-worldwide-aids-epidemic-killed-30million-screening-starts-heathrow.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792030/jeremy-hunt-warns-ebola-outbreak-deadly-worldwide-aids-epidemic-killed-30million-screening-starts-heathrow.html)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792593/mother-11-says-s-easy-claim-benefits-plans-bumper-christmas-spending-4-000-taxpayers-cash-children-s-presents-including-ipads-gold-bracelets.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792593/mother-11-says-s-easy-claim-benefits-plans-bumper-christmas-spending-4-000-taxpayers-cash-children-s-presents-including-ipads-gold-bracelets.html)

For example the two stories above are straight from the top of their page today! But everyday is the same in DFM land
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 14, 2014, 04:28:27 pm
 $thanx$ B2R. felt a bit dumb not knowing! :)   
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 14, 2014, 04:53:27 pm
Quote
Stands for the Daily Flipping Mail

Mmmmm...close enough, I suppose...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 14, 2014, 04:55:07 pm
Most newspapers are full of rubbish. No-one, of course, is forced to read them.  8)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 14, 2014, 05:05:37 pm
Quote
Most newspapers are full of rubbish. No-one, of course, is forced to read them.

The danger is the influence these nasty little, spite-filled organs of bile have on politicians, who assume people do read them and - in the case of the DFM - sometimes even believe the festering ejaculate on which they thrive. Fortunately, since the Murdock slime has been reduced by one - the NOTW - the DFM is the worst of the remaining carrion so anyone with more than a room temperature IQ is able to see through their venomous poison.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 14, 2014, 05:22:31 pm
Quote
The danger is the influence these nasty little, spite-filled organs of bile have on politicians, who assume people do read them and - in the case of the DFM - sometimes even believe the festering ejaculate on which they thrive. Fortunately, since the Murdock slime has been reduced by one - the NOTW - the DFM is the worst of the remaining carrion so anyone with more than a room temperature IQ is able to see through their venomous poison.

Ian.....Brilliant, love it..... _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on October 14, 2014, 05:25:21 pm
Quote
the festering ejaculate on which they thrive.

Ooer!  :o  _))*
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 14, 2014, 10:42:36 pm
Quote
the festering ejaculate on which they thrive.

Ooer!  :o  _))*

I feel shame-faced for some reason!!

Born to Run, no matter how many articles you find on Google, or how many statistics you copy and paste, it will never wipe away the truth about the degradation of British society.
I will say to you again, go and live in one of the MANY areas chronically affected by the social and immigration problems that exist... and find out what it's like in the REAL world!

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on October 14, 2014, 11:18:17 pm
Some friends of ours just around the corner moved here from Nelson some years ago due to their home town being overrun with immigrants. They say their street was getting taken over and they were not made welcome in their home town!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 15, 2014, 07:46:51 am
Quote
I will say to you again, go and live in one of the MANY areas chronically affected by the social and immigration problems that exist... and find out what it's like in the REAL world!

Quote
Some friends of ours just around the corner moved here from Nelson some years ago due to their home town being overrun with immigrants. They say their street was getting taken over and they were not made welcome in their home town!

The problem is that the immigrant communities naturally tend to seek out fellow immigrants, much in the way the British seek out their own to form so-called 'ex-pat' colonies in Spain and France. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on October 15, 2014, 07:58:50 am
Very true and understandable, not sure what the answer is though?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 02:35:29 pm
Cameron to outline EU migration plans 'before Christmas'

David Cameron is to set out further plans to curb the rights of EU migrants to work in the UK before Christmas.
No 10 is said to be examining several options but no decision has been taken.
Speaking in London, outgoing European Commission head Jose Manuel Barroso said the EU would consider "legitimate concerns" but suggested an "arbitrary cap" on migrants would not be accepted.
Mr Cameron said UK voters, rather than European bureaucrats, were his "boss" and they wanted the issue "fixed".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29684585 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29684585)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 20, 2014, 02:47:33 pm
"BBC political editor Nick Robinson said it was not clear what the new measures would be or whether the prime minister would announce them before the Rochester and Strood by-election on 20 November, where the Tories are trying to prevent UKIP from snatching the seat."

Tories pandering to a bunch of elderly potential UKIP bigots and it's going to make them look even more silly than they already do

"Mr Barroso warned at the weekend that the PM's hopes of curbing EU immigration could be illegal."

 ££$
Title: Re: Re:unemployment and benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 03:03:59 pm
This is like Daily Mail roulette. We've gone from unemployment benefits to immigration in one swift spin.
Sorry B2R, do not want to go there, used only to make a point on the benefit issue.

Looks like we got here anyway..... :twoface:

Are we debating immigrants taking jobs or claiming benefits.......
Title: Re: Re:unemployment and benefits
Post by: born2run on October 20, 2014, 03:38:42 pm
This is like Daily Mail roulette. We've gone from unemployment benefits to immigration in one swift spin.
Sorry B2R, do not want to go there, used only to make a point on the benefit issue.

Looks like we got here anyway..... :twoface:

Are we debating immigrants taking jobs or claiming benefits.......

I don't understand the 'taking jobs' argument. Years ago, yes. People had a point when some immigrants (and some who were not immigrants) were prepared to work for peanuts - and thus do a job that should be something like £6 an hour for say £3 an hour - some unscrupulous employers of course loved this and were happy to employ the cheaper option.

But now we have a minimum wage, so legally foreign workers can't undercut British workers. UNLESS of course these are illegal" workers, working without licence. Ironically if David Pleasethepublicatallcosts puts 'caps' on the number of migrants - what we WILL get is tons of illegal workers who will do exactly that, and work for well below the minimum wage (they will have to of course because they will not have access to benefits, so it's either work for pennies or turn to crime)

The year 2014 and we are still only a shuffle away from the grapes of wrath  &shake&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 20, 2014, 03:47:34 pm
..or a Stein away...
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 03:56:16 pm
Are we debating immigrants taking jobs or claiming benefits.......

I Googled "immigrants on benefits" to many to link, just some of the opinions put forward....

Those from the European Economic Area (EEA - the EU plus Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) had made a particularly positive contribution in the decade up to 2011, the authors noted, contributing 34% more in taxes than they received in benefits and services.
The story is slightly different for immigrants who came to the UK from outside the EEA in that period. They also put more into the public purse than they took out, but by a smaller margin of 2%.
This is significant because a good proportion of those people who have been in the UK for some time are likely to be older than the most recent immigrants, and so are more likely to be on benefits and using health services than those who have arrived since 2000 (who have an average age of just 26 years).
To make sense of the numbers, it helps to break them down a little - to divide the net contribution to the public purse by the number of people in each group under study.
When we do that, we see that between 1995-2011, on average each EEA immigrant put about £6,000 more into the public purse than they took out.
Non-EEA immigrants each took out about £21,000 more than they put in during that period.
non-EEA immigrants make up two thirds of the UK immigrant population. So both groups of immigrants - EEA and non-EEA - considered together, take out around £14,000 more than they put in, amounting to a deficit of around £95bn for the public purse between 1995-2011

That is, it's been spending more than it's got for some time now. And it's spending a large proportion of that money it doesn't have on, of course, its own people.
And we can see that clearly when we look at how much native Brits are each putting in and taking out of the public purse. On average, each native Briton took out roughly £11,000 more than they put in between 1995-2011.
So to conclude, on average only Europeans are putting in more to the UK public purse than they're taking out. At least that was the case between 1995 and 2011.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373)

Number of foreign nationals on benefits soars to 400,000
The number of foreign nationals claiming benefits such as Jobseeker’s Allowance has jumped by 40 per cent in just four years to more than 400,000, new government figures have disclosed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10271855/Number-of-foreign-nationals-on-benefits-soars-to-400000.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10271855/Number-of-foreign-nationals-on-benefits-soars-to-400000.html)
.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 20, 2014, 04:16:41 pm
Ruth Alexander's report is vague, incoherent and grammatically suspect in parts and has (I suspect) been heavily edited. The '95£bn' deficit stat is largely based on Commonwealth immigrant data going back 40 or 50 years, and includes pensions and healthcare.

Nut all that begs the bigger question of how any net gain / net loss can ever be even remotely calculated since no one really understands international macroeconomics. .

Quote
"If you look at it in per capita terms, most studies don't find a particularly large impact and these studies depend on a whole range of assumptions and the impact will depend on how you look at things," Liebig says.

Quote
experts agree it's hard to capture the true picture, without making a lot of assumptions.

There are many things you can measure, and you can measure them in many different ways, making many different assumptions.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 04:41:51 pm
This sounds quite sensible, ?
The truth about 'benefit tourism'
Minus the spin, statistics show migrants place a less than proportionate burden on the welfare state and public services

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/20/truth-about-benefit-tourism (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/20/truth-about-benefit-tourism)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 20, 2014, 06:58:59 pm
Much more balanced and far more coherent. And some things he says are interesting:

Quote
The BBC also needs to be more careful in its analysis.

Quite.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 07:13:19 pm
Much more balanced and far more coherent. And some things he says are interesting:
Quote
The BBC also needs to be more careful in its analysis.
Quite.

I did notice that dig at the end the end of the article.... :roll:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: alw on October 20, 2014, 10:26:15 pm
Of course every single one of these analyses of immigrant contribution or deficit deliberately omit the cost of providing infrastructure and services for the increased population.

They always pretend that the new population goes away at night and does not need housing, does not need additional transport to deliver them food and other goods and medical capacity was not increased as the numbers increased.

Government should only be permitted to admit new citizens for whom they have already provided spare capacity, including jobs.

Of course no government has ever dared to price out the cost of physically accommodating and supplying the millions that continue to arrive.  Officially migration increased the UK population by 243,000 in 2013 and yet every year the number of new houses built goes down.

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 24, 2014, 11:46:12 am
Sorry alw, missed this post,   all good points.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 24, 2014, 03:19:55 pm
Yes Alw some very good points but the numbers of immigrants quoted is at best only an estimate and I would imagine grossly under estimated.    These Government bodies are inclined to manipulate statistics to suit their aims or policies.
I was watching a program on TV this week and they were interviewing a Fruit Farmer who employed only foreign workers as the English people were not prepared to do the work of fruit picking!
That's absurd, fruit picking is not exactly rocket science and all that is required is a reasonable level of fitness for this manual work.  If so many people in the UK are out of work why can't the employer approach the Job Centre and ask the Centre to send out the number of workers he needs?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: mull on October 24, 2014, 06:01:44 pm
Fruit/Vegetable pickers are usually controlled by Gang Masters paying them very low wages . It has been going on for years.
In certain parts of the UK these foreign workers are living in appalling conditions that are only tolerated by those desperate to be in this country.

If we were all prepared to pay the true cost of our fruit and veg it would put a stop to this exploitation.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 24, 2014, 10:29:17 pm
You are quite right of course about some workers being controlled by Gang masters and the various Governments have tried to stop this but in this case the employer was openly  being interviewed on TV.
I assume that he would be paying those employees the minimum wage because if he wasn't then he would be in trouble for not doing so and like wise if any of them were illegal immigrants then he would be fined for employing them.
He seemed to be genuine and would not have been stupid enough to leave himself open to investigation by the authorities.
The point I was trying to make is why  couldn't he just go to the Job Centre and get local people to do the work, accommodation wouldn't come in to it as the people would already have an address in the local area.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 25, 2014, 04:15:52 pm
David Cameron was supposed to be capping benefits at £26K and here is another example of why it should be done.    There are some people who disagree with the £26K cap,  saying that it is far too high and should be much lower, because after all the benefits are tax free. 
I'm sure that the people receiving these high benefits and a few odd bods would disagree but it's unfair and just stupid


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mirror.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-news%2Fdad-of-26-1k-windfall-after-council-4499440&ei=s71LVMHHEcWP7Abr2YCQDA&usg=AFQjCNGwoi0FHyA89LYFaxcj8aSCDn-i5A (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mirror.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-news%2Fdad-of-26-1k-windfall-after-council-4499440&ei=s71LVMHHEcWP7Abr2YCQDA&usg=AFQjCNGwoi0FHyA89LYFaxcj8aSCDn-i5A)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 25, 2014, 05:44:51 pm
Hi Hugo, I managed to watch a small part of the TV program, before changing channel, not only has he fathered these children on benefits, they are exactly the same, young single parents on benefits, they are laughing there heads off at us,..... there is a mentality of deliberately having children, just for the housing and benefits and we have said before, that this cycle has to be broken, starting with education.
Every idea I think of ends up affecting "the baby" ....if you stop housing and benefits, make them stay in the family home, and tough luck if it is not big enough....etc.
I found this interesting article, it might help...
April 2013
Benefits in Britain: separating the facts from the fiction 
How many people are dependent on welfare – and do families where three generations have never worked really exist?
The welfare state is a big part of British family life, with 20.3 million families receiving some kind of benefit (64% of all families), about 8.7 million of them pensioners. For 9.6 million families, benefits make up more than half of their income (30% of all families), around 5.3 million of them pensioners. The number of families receiving benefits will be between 1 and 2 million fewer now because of changes to child tax credits that mean some working families who previously got a small amount now get nothing.
(In my opinion pensioners should not be included as being on benefits, they paid into the system to get a pension)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths)

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 25, 2014, 10:45:05 pm
(In my opinion pensioners should not be included as being on benefits, they paid into the system to get a pension)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths)

The sad part of this Steve is that out there, there are also OAP'S who have never worked a day in their life which seems unbelievable.   I don't bother watching those benefit programmes on TV as they would drive me mad by their contents.   One classic comment I heard somewhere by an unemployed female was that it was her human rights to be entitled to benefits as her grandfather had apparently paid his taxes.
When women can make a career out of getting pregnant and men can go through life without doing a days work is unfair to the majority of working people and is totally unacceptable and unsustainable.
Right or wrong there still seems to be a class system in the UK and that's the upper class, middle class and the working class but where does it leave those physically and mentally able bodied people who refuse to work and are content to live off the backs of those that work.
They cannot be called working class as they don't work by choice and the only word I can think of that is printable is a parasite as they also feed off a host.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 26, 2014, 10:59:28 am
I am still reading up on this subject, and found this article on low pay, another side of the story, these are the people who want to work......... I think your reference to "Parasites" is correct, and when we discuss unemployment and benefits, we will have to remember it is a minority group of parasites we are talking about.

"While low pay is likely to be better than no pay at all, it’s troubling that the number of low-paid workers across Britain reached a record high last "

“Being low paid – and getting stuck there for years on end – creates not only immediate financial pressures, but can permanently affect people’s career prospects. A growing rump of low-paid jobs also presents a financial headache for the government because it fails to boost the tax take and raises the benefits bill for working people."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/26/record-number-of-britons-in-low-paid-jobs-says-thinktank (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/26/record-number-of-britons-in-low-paid-jobs-says-thinktank)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 27, 2014, 04:04:22 pm
This 'parasite' thing is as you rightly say, a tiny minority. The vast majority of people who are on benefits are there because they need it. Whether it's because they are too old to work, looking after young Children or mentally or physically incapable of sustaining a job.

How do you differentiate between the genuine people and the people you call 'parasites' ?
You can't. That simple, any kind of benefit cap, benefit cuts or anything else is only going to hurt those people who genuinely need those benefits to survive.

All these attempts to 'stop the scroungers' and whatever else the government throws out to pander to the bitter right wingers only hurts and attacks the most vulnerable and needy people in our society. Even the right wing gutter press think some of these new 'incentives' are harsh to say the least

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2809386/Father-told-work-lose-benefits-hospital-waiting-quadruple-bypass-just-days-suffered-heart-attack.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2809386/Father-told-work-lose-benefits-hospital-waiting-quadruple-bypass-just-days-suffered-heart-attack.html)


Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 27, 2014, 05:53:53 pm
That link's typical of the DFM and hopefully that's just an extreme example of what is happening with the benefit changes.
Any civilised society has a moral obligation to look after and protect children, the elderly, the sick and the vulnerable people and there can be no argument about that.
Often people are on benefits through no fault of their own but we are not talking about them but about the small minority that refuse to do any work.    I make no apology for calling them parasites because that is what they are and the dictionary defines them as so.
To get a fair society it is only right that we all contribute to society in a positive manner and that includes everyone from all walks of society.
Now tax avoidance and tax evasion are two different things.   One is perfectly legal and the other is not. 
The rich and famous and those large multi international companies have been heavily criticized and quite rightly so for not paying their fair share of tax.  But they have done nothing wrong, nothing illegal because the present system allows them to do it.  It is morally wrong though and needs sorting out.
Benefit claimants such as the example of the father of 26 receiving £32K tax free have done nothing wrong either as the system allows them to claim these ridiculous amounts while sitting on their backsides and doing nothing to contribute to society
Both examples are obscene and shouldn't be tolerated.  This statement is just ridiculous    "any kind of benefit cap, benefit cuts or anything else is only going to hurt those people who genuinely need those benefits to survive"
 How do you think the vast majority of working people cope?   
They live in property they can afford, have as many children as they can financial support and so the list goes on.
We have seen the wages of trade unionists being pegged for many years and the Nurses pay being stopped this year and in effect these working people have effectively had a pay cut.
Now if I was a Union Rep and said to my members that it is perfectly ok for benefit people to have a higher income than the members I represent then I would seriously question whether I was the right man for the job.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 27, 2014, 06:20:48 pm
Quote
The vast majority of people who are on benefits are there because they're...looking after young Children

But isn't having children optional? I suspect a lot of folk are concerned about people having children and expecting the state to finance their upbringing. What would you say to them, B2R?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 28, 2014, 12:21:56 pm
What is there to possibly say?- What can you, I or anyone else do about it?
 The answer is nothing,

We can't stop these people having children.
We are not going to let these Children starve.
Therefore the state will continue to support these Children.

There is zero debate to be had.

Remember not all people looking after Children are able to work. Lots are single parent, with non school age Children. It is not practicable for them to work.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 28, 2014, 12:27:38 pm
  This statement is just ridiculous    "any kind of benefit cap, benefit cuts or anything else is only going to hurt those people who genuinely need those benefits to survive"
 How do you think the vast majority of working people cope?   


That is completely irrelevant. We are not talking about how the vast majority of working people cope, we are talking as I quite clearly said about 'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'

Unless you are proposing a Darwinian type concept in which only people who are fortunate enough to be in and who are capable of work will survive then you're just throwing up apples instead of oranges!


 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 28, 2014, 03:14:00 pm
Quote
What is there to possibly say?- What can you, I or anyone else do about it? The answer is nothing,

I suspect the answer is a political one. And you haven't answered the question.  Do you support single girls having babies and expecting the state to look after them? Because that's what appears to be happening.

Quote
Remember not all people looking after Children are able to work. Lots are single parent,

See my previous point...

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you're lacking in coherent responses.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 28, 2014, 03:15:45 pm
BTR,    Instead of making statements that may appear stupid to some people, why don't you try to justify what you are saying and have a more balanced outlook on society as a whole?
You chastise the rich for using loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of tax,  but to turn your statement around, who is to say that they don't need the extra money to sustain their lifestyle and after all they have worked for their money.
Any fair minded person would say that this tax avoidance is morally wrong but then so is the benefit system that allows able bodied people to go through life without working and make no contribution to the society that has supported them.

These are your words "we are talking as I quite clearly said about 'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'
Perhaps you can balance your argument and justify how that father of 26 who receives £32K  plus per annum tax free ( grossed up to over £40K if he was working )  genuinely needs £32 K plus per annum to survive.
It'll be very interesting to hear what you have to say about that example, especially as many hard working people in this area, including Union members do not earn £40K per annum.   

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on October 28, 2014, 04:02:18 pm
As the population of the Earth passes SEVEN BILLION, with no signs of slowing down, it becomes ever more unsustainable.

Therefore, I say it is wrong to offer financial incentives for human beings to deliver more hungry mouths into the world.

If you can afford them, have them,   If you can't, don't expect me to subsidise them.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 28, 2014, 04:41:40 pm
BTR,   

These are your words "we are talking as I quite clearly said about 'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'
Perhaps you can balance your argument and justify how that father of 26 who receives £32K  plus per annum tax free ( grossed up to over £40K if he was working )  genuinely needs £32 K plus per annum to survive.
It'll be very interesting to hear what you have to say about that example, especially as many hard working people in this area, including Union members do not earn £40K per annum.   

That's my point exactly. You are picking on the tiniest minority of claimant seekers. One person who receives that many benefits is incredibly rare (please check this link I have already posted - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths)) . So why are you using him as the scapegoat to justify punishing ALL benefit claimants?

"there were just 130 families in the country with 10 children claiming at least one out-of-work benefit. Only 8% of benefit claimants have three or more children. What evidence there is suggests that, on average, unemployed people have similar numbers of children to employed people ... it is not clear at all that benefits are a significant incentive to have children.""

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 28, 2014, 04:45:47 pm
Quote
What is there to possibly say?- What can you, I or anyone else do about it? The answer is nothing,

I suspect the answer is a political one. And you haven't answered the question.  Do you support single girls having babies and expecting the state to look after them? Because that's what appears to be happening.

Quote
Remember not all people looking after Children are able to work. Lots are single parent,

See my previous point...

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you're lacking in coherent responses.

I don't believe that is happening. Most single parents are not single parents through choice so I can't answer your question. Not that it would be up to me or anyone else to vet whether someone is 'eligible' to have a baby or not.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on October 28, 2014, 05:28:29 pm
There are plenty of unproductive people of no use to society that should be sterilised to stop them producing even more of the same! That word reduce the problem!  WWW
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 28, 2014, 05:44:22 pm
Quote
Most single parents are not single parents through choice

What evidence do you have to support that? I'm not saying it's wrong, merely wondering why there are 1.9 million lone parents with dependent children in the UK in 2013 if they didn't have a choice.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 28, 2014, 06:19:17 pm
BTR,  you have again avoided answering my question.      &shake&

Of course the example is extreme but we are talking about the small minority of these so called parasites of society,  I could have mentioned the Somali unemployed man who lives in a rented £2M house in London and receives £95K in Council Tax benefits alone but instead used the father of 26 who receives £32K plus per annum.
I'll ask you again, do you still think that in that instance that your words    'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'   still apply to that person and if you maintain that they do perhaps you can explain why because your logic is beyond my comprehension

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 28, 2014, 06:46:21 pm
Found this link interesting....on the single parent issue.

" Only 2% of the 2million single parents are teenagers"

http://www.gingerbread.org.uk/content/365/Statistics (http://www.gingerbread.org.uk/content/365/Statistics)

Mythbusting: Single Parents
You know that story about the single mum? Living the high life on benefits with her 18 children, barely out of her teens herself and refusing to work? Doesn't she sound familiar? No? We don't recognise her either.

There are lots negative stereotypes out there about single parents in the UK, often made worse by sensational media stories and attention-grabbing headlines. The fact is though that many of the myths about single parents just aren't true. Here at Gingerbread, the national charity for single parent families, we're committed to showing what it's really like to be one of the UK's 2 million single parents.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on October 28, 2014, 07:05:47 pm
That's interesting, but I think the teenage / single parent stats are out of date and ignore the skewing in parts of the UK. For instance, where it says "This figure has remained consistent since the mid-1990’s "  the Government OfNS shows a year-on-year rise, albeit not a great one. The British Social Attitudes survey of lifestyles revealed that 57% of single parents made a conscious choice to be single and - although I've only started taking a peek tonight - I'm mildly surprised at the number of websites that encourage and support those who wish to have children as single mothers.

I suspect we're talking about two distinct groups: those who are single parents through no fault of their own (death of a partner or similar) and those who made a conscious choice at the outset. This latter group may be those who knew that a single woman with a child and who's not living at home has to be housed by the local authority.

This letter is fairly typical of those on the various web sites:
"Not really the same, but I was 21 when I found out I was pregnant and already split up from Dad. I knew dad was a waste of space and that if I decided to carry on with my pregnancy, I would be doing it alone.

There are massive benefits to being a single parent.

I wholeheartedly agree and have never regretted my decision to go it alone (Dad wanted to be involved for a short time and ended up messing me and the little one around, and I regret letting him do it, but felt I HAD to give him the chance).

I think among other things it speaks to children having children having children, with little or no thought for the consequences, other then what they will get out of it. I'm not sure that's a healthy attitude for the children being born, the children giving birth or society itself.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on October 29, 2014, 09:23:23 am
I think among other things it speaks to children having children having children, with little or no thought for the consequences, other then what they will get out of it. I'm not sure that's a healthy attitude for the children being born, the children giving birth or society itself.
Very wise words, Ian, it's a ticking time bomb for society as a whole.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 29, 2014, 10:44:37 am
BTR,  you have again avoided answering my question.      &shake&

Of course the example is extreme but we are talking about the small minority of these so called parasites of society,  I could have mentioned the Somali unemployed man who lives in a rented £2M house in London and receives £95K in Council Tax benefits alone but instead used the father of 26 who receives £32K plus per annum.
I'll ask you again, do you still think that in that instance that your words    'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'   still apply to that person and if you maintain that they do perhaps you can explain why because your logic is beyond my comprehension

My point, and the only one I need to make is that the only way to have any system that punishes those two tiny minorities you have mentioned also punishes all other genuine benefit claimants and that is not fair and cannot be allowed to happen.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on October 29, 2014, 04:59:13 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2812812/Half-England-s-Shamless-troubled-families-turned-crackdown-9billion-problem.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2812812/Half-England-s-Shamless-troubled-families-turned-crackdown-9billion-problem.html)

There you go! What are you all complaining about the Super Tories have managed to 'turn around' 690,000 problem families.  :laugh: Utter tripe of course!
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on October 29, 2014, 05:03:01 pm
Quote
My point, and the only one I need to make is that the only way to have any system that punishes those two tiny minorities you have mentioned also punishes all other genuine benefit claimants and that is not fair and cannot be allowed to happen.


A typical cop out with no  justification given to back up such comments.    It's no wonder the Calais Mayor said on TV last night that immigrants think the UK is an El Darado where they can get lucrative benefits, free housing and do nothing for it.
No one is saying that the genuine benefit claimants should suffer but every one, benefit claimants and those working should take responsibility for their actions. 
People can have as many children as they want, there's no problem with that.   My Taid had 12 children but he worked all his life, he paid for the rent on his house, together with the heating and lighting and had no child benefits to support his large family.
If TV's,  Sky, computers and motor cars were about  then he still wouldn't be able to afford them because he was poor but he would have accepted that because in life you shouldn't expect anything for nothing.
What a difference to today's benefit society that expect every thing for nothing.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on October 30, 2014, 11:09:47 am
A little bit off discussion, I am not sure what to say.....see what you think,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29968216 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29968216)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29815425 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29815425)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on November 03, 2014, 06:40:39 pm
** Bodybuilder jailed for benefit fraud **
A former Mr Wales who falsely claimed £28,332 in disability benefits for eight years whilst continuing to compete in bodybuilding competitions is jailed for six months

Why haven't they made a confiscation order on this person?



http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29880418 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29880418)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on November 03, 2014, 07:52:42 pm

Why haven't they made a confiscation order on this person?

Probably because he's such a big bloke!  :o
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on November 04, 2014, 12:28:57 pm
** Bodybuilder jailed for benefit fraud **
A former Mr Wales who falsely claimed £28,332 in disability benefits for eight years whilst continuing to compete in bodybuilding competitions is jailed for six months
Why haven't they made a confiscation order on this person?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29880418 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29880418)
This sums up just how flawed the system is.. I feel I should comment, but I am lost for words... $angry$  printable words.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on June 14, 2015, 07:32:02 pm
 &shake&.... &shake&.... &shake&.... &shake&.... &shake&

Couple on benefits wed in ceremony that cost taxpayers £5k - and get NHS op to improve sex life

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-benefits-wed-ceremony-cost-5878755 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-benefits-wed-ceremony-cost-5878755)
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 14, 2015, 11:00:51 pm
A disgusting waste of OUR money!  $angry$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Mr Tunnock on June 15, 2015, 08:16:19 am
The tip of a very large iceberg I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on June 15, 2015, 10:34:12 am
&shake&.... &shake&.... &shake&.... &shake&.... &shake&

Couple on benefits wed in ceremony that cost taxpayers £5k - and get NHS op to improve sex life

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-benefits-wed-ceremony-cost-5878755 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/couple-benefits-wed-ceremony-cost-5878755)
Interesting to see even a newspaper like the Mirror is having a go at benefit claimants now.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on June 15, 2015, 10:37:30 am
The irony didn't escape :-))))


Well, if Labour are to dig themselves out of the hole they created they're going to need to address issues of real concern. Criminality is a major issue with the electorate.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on June 15, 2015, 12:50:42 pm
BRILLIANT  :)

What a ridiculous article  _))*

come almost feel the steam coming out of the ears of the angry idiots who fell for it $angry$

the only bit of YOUR money they are getting is the vast amount of money the mirror has given them for agreeing to be exploited by their newspaper which you might have bought a copy of (are clicked on their website giving them advertising revenue).

They are certainly laughing at you. Win for the happy couple, win for the mirror, big loss for anyone who sees it as anything else but poverty porn.

some of my personal highlights

"Richard and his granny bride"

age branding and discrimination is ok if they are benefits 'scum' is it?

"And that was in the same breath as bragging they plan to get the Government to fund a luxury honeymoon in Malaysia."  L0L :laugh: _))*
So they have a plan to get the government to get them a luxury honeymoon in Malaysia do they? Please pray tell this ingenious plan! Unless they created the benefits system themselves, it's not really their plan at all is it?

"Even their sex life has been boosted by the state – because mum of seven Sandra had plastic surgery on the NHS to give her a “designer vagina” three years ago"

Ralph Lauren are really branching out these days  D)

"Broom – who quit his job five years ago to become an actor – said: “Thanks to the taxpayer we were able to have a great day."

My pleasure matey  $good$

"We’ve saved £600 for our honeymoon and want the Government to match it. but hoping the Government will offer a ­honeymoon voucher or bonus.”

I hope the government will give me a Ferrari bonus and an invisibility cloak voucher  8)


This really brightened up my morning!!!  $thanx$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 15, 2015, 06:34:53 pm
I have never bought a copy of the Mirror in my life! Glad to see even you see them as benefit scum, they are of no use to society in any way!  &shake&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on June 15, 2015, 07:21:40 pm
It's the eternal problem: I'm willing to accept the vast majority of benefits claimants are decent, honest and willing to work. But we'll always have liars, cheats and frauds in our midst; after all, they're who nearly brought the world to its knees, financially. Except I doubt many of those were claimants...

One major irony about all this is the simple fact that people are generally incapable of discriminatory scaled perception. Put another way, the bankers who committed massive, truly massive frauds and who cost us, the tax payers billions and - worldwide - trillions of pounds, somehow fail to raise the indignation and resentment of folk in the way that a few criminal scroungers who abuse the system (for peanuts, in banking terms) inevitably do. It strikes me if you're going into crime, do it in a really big way. That should ensure you won't be hated nearly as much as the local alcoholic and might even end up being admired.

I accept it's a psychological issue, but I suspect it says rather a lot about our society.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 15, 2015, 07:50:03 pm
I don't like the bankers either! Not the  people behind the counters, the ones at the top who caused such major problems! I also have every sympathy with 'genuine' benefits claimants,  but surely it is there as a safety net rather than to pay for weddings etc?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on June 16, 2015, 06:55:55 am
I agree entirely and I wasn't having a go at you :-)))) I was really just making the point that people become more incensed by small-scale crime than by the really big stuff.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 16, 2015, 08:14:36 am
Ian, I know you were not having a go at me  :D  I suppose people react to what they see in the media, I suspect that many people think 'why are these people not working yet receiving money, yet we have to go to work?'
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on June 16, 2015, 09:58:13 am
Ian, I know you were not having a go at me  :D  I suppose people react to what they see in the media, I suspect that many people think 'why are these people not working yet receiving money, yet we have to go to work?'

I can tell you quite easily. That couple was able to pay for that wedding and the many other things they have, not through the taxpayers. But through channel 5, the daily mirror and about a dozen other media outlets. Of course the paper conveniently doesn't mention any of that. The irony, the brilliant irony in my opinion. Is that the couple mentioned are NOT even on benefits, they used to be but are now full time on the 'hate celebrity circuit' along with a dozen other desspots like this lady

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/josie-cunningham-arrested-nhs-boob-job-5688477 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/josie-cunningham-arrested-nhs-boob-job-5688477)

There is a LOT of money to be made by making people angry,  $angry$ at the other end of the spectrum there is this charming lady

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/suncolumnists/katiehopkins/6414865/Katie-Hopkins-I-would-use-gunships-to-stop-migrants.html (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/suncolumnists/katiehopkins/6414865/Katie-Hopkins-I-would-use-gunships-to-stop-migrants.html)

Again full time on the 'celebrity hate circuit' - basically, people who are paid lots of money and told what to say to wind up lots of people to sell lots of papers.

 _))* _))* _))* _))*

Brilliant I think  $good$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Fester on June 16, 2015, 11:21:28 am
I find Katie Hopkins strangely attractive.... I have developed a crush on her!   $salute$ $smack$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on June 16, 2015, 12:10:09 pm
I find Katie Hopkins strangely attractive.... I have developed a crush on her!   $salute$ $smack$

I like the idea of having a crush on her.....steam roller should do the trick  ££$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on June 16, 2015, 12:21:36 pm
I have never bought a copy of the Mirror in my life! Glad to see even you see them as benefit scum, they are of no use to society in any way!  &shake&

Absolutely agree 100% no use to our society at all

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3126106/Prince-William-used-official-helicopter-80-mile-trip-event-marking-Magna-Carta-anniversary-cost-8-000.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3126106/Prince-William-used-official-helicopter-80-mile-trip-event-marking-Magna-Carta-anniversary-cost-8-000.html)

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on June 17, 2015, 09:24:10 am
The Mirror criticising benefit scroungers.
The Mail criticising the royals...

What's the world coming to?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2015, 07:00:05 pm
Being confined to one room in Glan Clwyd Hospital last week there was little I could do other than watch TV.    One evening while changing channels I saw a programme on benefits.
It depicted an unemployed Romanian couple living in the UK with 11 children and 11 Grandchildren.  They had a house and £24K a year in benefits  (plus NHS)  and only moved here because the UK benefits were 6 times what they would have received in Roumania.
Yet they were doing nothing illegal, it's just the stupid system in the EU that allows it to happen.
I only watched the programme for a short time as my blood pressure that morning had been high and thought that it was prudent not to watch any more of the programme.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 08, 2015, 10:17:46 pm
We saw that too, what a stupid system to allow that to happen!  &shake&
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on July 10, 2015, 08:39:48 am
Here's an interesting experiment. Use the slider on the page link (below) to find out how accurate or otherwise your own ideas are compared with the reality in terms of overall welfare spending.


http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/ (http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/)

I was out by a significant margin for most and only close on one.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on July 10, 2015, 09:53:19 am
I was way out on most of my guesses too but the figure of 2% for Unemployment Benefits is misleading and has been manipulated by the Government, as those on Unemployment benefits have simply been moved to another class of benefit.
It's just a ploy to make people think that there are less people out of work than  actually are.

 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on July 10, 2015, 09:57:39 am
Here's an interesting experiment. Use the slider on the page link (below) to find out how accurate or otherwise your own ideas are compared with the reality in terms of overall welfare spending.
http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/ (http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/)
I was out by a significant margin for most and only close on one.

I was way out too..........

"Welfare covers a number of benefits, and many people don’t realise that the largest amount is actually spent on state pensions at £83 billion (33% of total welfare spending). "

I get seriously "miffed" time and time again, when pensions are described as "benefits" and "welfare" and are included in figures such as this example,......the majority of people getting pensions today, made a contract with the government to pay into their scheme, and did so for up to 50 years,  no wonder the young, point at pensioners and say "why them" and not us.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on July 14, 2015, 12:28:35 pm
Here's an interesting experiment. Use the slider on the page link (below) to find out how accurate or otherwise your own ideas are compared with the reality in terms of overall welfare spending.
http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/ (http://visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/)
I was out by a significant margin for most and only close on one.

I was way out too..........

"Welfare covers a number of benefits, and many people don’t realise that the largest amount is actually spent on state pensions at £83 billion (33% of total welfare spending). "

I get seriously "miffed" time and time again, when pensions are described as "benefits" and "welfare" and are included in figures such as this example,......the majority of people getting pensions today, made a contract with the government to pay into their scheme, and did so for up to 50 years,  no wonder the young, point at pensioners and say "why them" and not us.

If there wasn't such a self imposed stigma on the word 'benefit' it wouldn't bother you or anyone else in the slightest.

Pension IS a benefit. It rightly benefits the people who are in receipt of it. How they have cameabout getting this 'benefit' is irrelevant.
The word has been used for Welfare receipts for the last 50 odd years it is only in the last 5 or so years the media has poisoned the word and now Pensioners are angry about being called benefit claimants.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on July 14, 2015, 12:35:51 pm
B2R, do you agree with Harriet Harman that the proposed cuts in Tax Credits are fair?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on July 14, 2015, 02:15:57 pm
Absolutely not. That change affects working people, namely the working poor who have to have these benefits added on to their income to be able to manage. Not content with punishing the out of work this Government now wants to punish those unfortunate enough to be low paid workers.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: snowcap on July 14, 2015, 10:44:00 pm
I worked all my life paying for these" benefits" that you call them btr, you can call them what you like as long as my hard earned payment goes in every month. all it is is a return( be it little) on my investmen and i,m  still paying tax on it
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: DaveR on July 15, 2015, 09:37:45 am
I don't regard Pensions as a Benefit. Pensions are only paid to people who have paid their NI contributions over many years and who certainly deserve a reward for their hard work.

There's a world of difference between someone of 65 claiming a relatively meagre pension after paying NI Contributions & Tax for 45+ years and somebody else who has never contributed a penny in NI or Tax, expecting the state to fund their lifestyle.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Bosun on July 15, 2015, 11:33:51 am
DaveR, how I categorically agree with you!

I do not yet receive a State Pension, or 'benefits', but I do receive the Private Pensions that I (highly) paid for, for 40 years from taxed income, that I am now taxed on, those taxes, which I have paid twice, going to fund 'benefits'. When I do receive a State Pension, it will, as Dave R says, have been paid for by my NI contributions.

Lets please separate Pensions from 'benefits', at least for this discussion. 

By the way B2R, how's the juggling shop doing?

Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2015, 11:41:30 am
Quote
Pension IS a benefit.

The government's own Benefits site doesn't include pensions.

https://www.gov.uk/browse/benefits/entitlement (https://www.gov.uk/browse/benefits/entitlement)

but the OED is curiously ambiguous: "a payment made by the state or an insurance scheme to someone entitled to receive it"
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: SteveH on July 15, 2015, 12:18:32 pm
DaveR, how I categorically agree with you!
I do not yet receive a State Pension, or 'benefits', but I do receive the Private Pensions that I (highly) paid for, for 40 years from taxed income, that I am now taxed on, those taxes, which I have paid twice, going to fund 'benefits'. When I do receive a State Pension, it will, as Dave R says, have been paid for by my NI contributions.
Lets please separate Pensions from 'benefits', at least for this discussion. 
By the way B2R, how's the juggling shop doing?
Hi Bosun,  The separation you mentioned above needs to be more permanent, rather than just this discussion, while the government continues this policy , and I am sure they will, it makes them look good and the pensioners the "baddies".
I heard a number of comments on a TV " benefits show" ..........."why do pensioners get so much, if you stopped it, we could get more"......."if you cut pensions you would not need the bedroom tax"........ it shows the way people are misguided ............ $angry$
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Hugo on July 15, 2015, 10:21:48 pm
Personally,  it doesn't bother me what Pensions are described as so long as I receive mine.    I've paid into the system for more than 50 years and am still doing so,  so I have no qualms about what the Government call it.
As for the cuts in Tax Credits the Government are spot on with them.   The initial system of tax credits was good in principle but has been abused over the years and the abusers are actually the employers who engage staff on restricted hours knowing full well that the Government will make up the income  for those employees.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on July 16, 2015, 07:04:05 am
I think the problem lies in the way the ONS uses the definitions. The government itself (as I've said) doesn't include Pensions as a benefit, yet it seems the ONS does. Your Pension is no more a benefit than a visit to the GP; both are contractual components of a deal made in 1948 between the UK working people and the government of the day.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Bosun on July 16, 2015, 10:45:06 am
I might be being pedantic, but having paid many tens of thousands of pounds for something, I do actually happen to have a view on what it should be called and I am uncomfortable with it being termed in the same manner as welfare support which is a different facility entirely. 
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Ian on July 16, 2015, 12:30:37 pm
I agree.
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: born2run on July 16, 2015, 12:31:09 pm
I might be being pedantic, but having paid many tens of thousands of pounds for something, I do actually happen to have a view on what it should be called and I am uncomfortable with it being termed in the same manner as welfare support which is a different facility entirely.

They are both in the National Assistance Act 1948. So how can they not be in the same 'family'?
Title: Re: Unemployment and Benefits
Post by: Bosun on July 16, 2015, 05:27:14 pm
Again, not wishing to be pedantic... but I wrote 'facility', not 'family'...

And, my private ''pensions' have nothing to do with the state 'pension', but both are called pensions... and some in society have difficulty in accepting and/or understanding the difference.