Unemployment and Benefits

[Hugo]

BTR,    Instead of making statements that may appear stupid to some people, why don't you try to justify what you are saying and have a more balanced outlook on society as a whole?
You chastise the rich for using loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of tax,  but to turn your statement around, who is to say that they don't need the extra money to sustain their lifestyle and after all they have worked for their money.
Any fair minded person would say that this tax avoidance is morally wrong but then so is the benefit system that allows able bodied people to go through life without working and make no contribution to the society that has supported them.

These are your words "we are talking as I quite clearly said about 'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'
Perhaps you can balance your argument and justify how that father of 26 who receives £32K  plus per annum tax free ( grossed up to over £40K if he was working )  genuinely needs £32 K plus per annum to survive.
It'll be very interesting to hear what you have to say about that example, especially as many hard working people in this area, including Union members do not earn £40K per annum.   

[Fester]

As the population of the Earth passes SEVEN BILLION, with no signs of slowing down, it becomes ever more unsustainable.

Therefore, I say it is wrong to offer financial incentives for human beings to deliver more hungry mouths into the world.

If you can afford them, have them,   If you can't, don't expect me to subsidise them.

[born2run]

BTR,   

These are your words "we are talking as I quite clearly said about 'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'
Perhaps you can balance your argument and justify how that father of 26 who receives £32K  plus per annum tax free ( grossed up to over £40K if he was working )  genuinely needs £32 K plus per annum to survive.
It'll be very interesting to hear what you have to say about that example, especially as many hard working people in this area, including Union members do not earn £40K per annum.   

That's my point exactly. You are picking on the tiniest minority of claimant seekers. One person who receives that many benefits is incredibly rare (please check this link I have already posted - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths) . So why are you using him as the scapegoat to justify punishing ALL benefit claimants?

"there were just 130 families in the country with 10 children claiming at least one out-of-work benefit. Only 8% of benefit claimants have three or more children. What evidence there is suggests that, on average, unemployed people have similar numbers of children to employed people ... it is not clear at all that benefits are a significant incentive to have children.""

[born2run]

What is there to possibly say?- What can you, I or anyone else do about it? The answer is nothing,

I suspect the answer is a political one. And you haven't answered the question.  Do you support single girls having babies and expecting the state to look after them? Because that's what appears to be happening.

Remember not all people looking after Children are able to work. Lots are single parent,

See my previous point...

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you're lacking in coherent responses.

I don't believe that is happening. Most single parents are not single parents through choice so I can't answer your question. Not that it would be up to me or anyone else to vet whether someone is 'eligible' to have a baby or not.

[Merddin Emrys]

There are plenty of unproductive people of no use to society that should be sterilised to stop them producing even more of the same! That word reduce the problem!  WWW

[Ian]

Most single parents are not single parents through choice

What evidence do you have to support that? I'm not saying it's wrong, merely wondering why there are 1.9 million lone parents with dependent children in the UK in 2013 if they didn't have a choice.

[Hugo]

BTR,  you have again avoided answering my question.     

Of course the example is extreme but we are talking about the small minority of these so called parasites of society,  I could have mentioned the Somali unemployed man who lives in a rented £2M house in London and receives £95K in Council Tax benefits alone but instead used the father of 26 who receives £32K plus per annum.
I'll ask you again, do you still think that in that instance that your words    'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'   still apply to that person and if you maintain that they do perhaps you can explain why because your logic is beyond my comprehension

[SteveH]

Found this link interesting....on the single parent issue.

" Only 2% of the 2million single parents are teenagers"

http://www.gingerbread.org.uk/content/365/Statistics

Mythbusting: Single Parents
You know that story about the single mum? Living the high life on benefits with her 18 children, barely out of her teens herself and refusing to work? Doesn't she sound familiar? No? We don't recognise her either.

There are lots negative stereotypes out there about single parents in the UK, often made worse by sensational media stories and attention-grabbing headlines. The fact is though that many of the myths about single parents just aren't true. Here at Gingerbread, the national charity for single parent families, we're committed to showing what it's really like to be one of the UK's 2 million single parents.

[Ian]

That's interesting, but I think the teenage / single parent stats are out of date and ignore the skewing in parts of the UK. For instance, where it says "This figure has remained consistent since the mid-1990’s "  the Government OfNS shows a year-on-year rise, albeit not a great one. The British Social Attitudes survey of lifestyles revealed that 57% of single parents made a conscious choice to be single and - although I've only started taking a peek tonight - I'm mildly surprised at the number of websites that encourage and support those who wish to have children as single mothers.

I suspect we're talking about two distinct groups: those who are single parents through no fault of their own (death of a partner or similar) and those who made a conscious choice at the outset. This latter group may be those who knew that a single woman with a child and who's not living at home has to be housed by the local authority.

This letter is fairly typical of those on the various web sites:
"Not really the same, but I was 21 when I found out I was pregnant and already split up from Dad. I knew dad was a waste of space and that if I decided to carry on with my pregnancy, I would be doing it alone.

There are massive benefits to being a single parent.

I wholeheartedly agree and have never regretted my decision to go it alone (Dad wanted to be involved for a short time and ended up messing me and the little one around, and I regret letting him do it, but felt I HAD to give him the chance).

I think among other things it speaks to children having children having children, with little or no thought for the consequences, other then what they will get out of it. I'm not sure that's a healthy attitude for the children being born, the children giving birth or society itself.

[DaveR]

I think among other things it speaks to children having children having children, with little or no thought for the consequences, other then what they will get out of it. I'm not sure that's a healthy attitude for the children being born, the children giving birth or society itself.

Very wise words, Ian, it's a ticking time bomb for society as a whole.

[born2run]

BTR,  you have again avoided answering my question.     

Of course the example is extreme but we are talking about the small minority of these so called parasites of society,  I could have mentioned the Somali unemployed man who lives in a rented £2M house in London and receives £95K in Council Tax benefits alone but instead used the father of 26 who receives £32K plus per annum.
I'll ask you again, do you still think that in that instance that your words    'those who genuinely need those benefits to survive'   still apply to that person and if you maintain that they do perhaps you can explain why because your logic is beyond my comprehension

My point, and the only one I need to make is that the only way to have any system that punishes those two tiny minorities you have mentioned also punishes all other genuine benefit claimants and that is not fair and cannot be allowed to happen.

[born2run]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2812812/Half-England-s-Shamless-troubled-families-turned-crackdown-9billion-problem.html

There you go! What are you all complaining about the Super Tories have managed to 'turn around' 690,000 problem families.  Utter tripe of course!

[Hugo]

My point, and the only one I need to make is that the only way to have any system that punishes those two tiny minorities you have mentioned also punishes all other genuine benefit claimants and that is not fair and cannot be allowed to happen.

A typical cop out with no  justification given to back up such comments.    It's no wonder the Calais Mayor said on TV last night that immigrants think the UK is an El Darado where they can get lucrative benefits, free housing and do nothing for it.
No one is saying that the genuine benefit claimants should suffer but every one, benefit claimants and those working should take responsibility for their actions. 
People can have as many children as they want, there's no problem with that.   My Taid had 12 children but he worked all his life, he paid for the rent on his house, together with the heating and lighting and had no child benefits to support his large family.
If TV's,  Sky, computers and motor cars were about  then he still wouldn't be able to afford them because he was poor but he would have accepted that because in life you shouldn't expect anything for nothing.
What a difference to today's benefit society that expect every thing for nothing.

[SteveH]

A little bit off discussion, I am not sure what to say.....see what you think,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29968216

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29815425

[Hugo]

** Bodybuilder jailed for benefit fraud **
A former Mr Wales who falsely claimed £28,332 in disability benefits for eight years whilst continuing to compete in bodybuilding competitions is jailed for six months

Why haven't they made a confiscation order on this person?



http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-29880418