great orme cemetery

[emma p]

Thanks for your message Bri and thanks Hugo for the super info and translation.
My mind is whirring with all sorts of thoughts and possibilities ! Would'nt it be wonderful to turn back time and actually be there.
East Lynn ?  Would that be the name of the residence or hotel at that time ? 
Funnily enough the name of Annie Webbs witness on her marriage certificate is an Elizabeth Smith, was Evans your grandmothers married or maiden name ?
So this John Williams that John 'may' have worked for was quite an important guy then in Llandudnos history. Blimey ! 

[Hugo]

John Williams was a very important person in his day. He was Lord Mostyn's Land agent for 43 years and held numerous other posts in the development of Llandudno as a Victorian town.
I've been reading a book by Chris Draper called Llandudno before the hotels. It's £9.95 and a very good read for anyone interested in the early history of Llandudno.  It's well worth a read.
I'm sure that Enoch Roberts would have been looked after by John Williams as John was obviously in a position where he could influence a lot of people

[Bri Roberts]

East Lynn ?  Would that be the name of the residence or hotel at that time ?

I am of the opinion it was a residence immediately next to the Cae Mor Hotel but is now part of the Four Oaks Hotel. 

Funnily enough the name of Annie Webbs witness on her marriage certificate is an Elizabeth Smith, was Evans your grandmothers married or maiden name ?

Elizabeth Evans became Elizabeth Roberts after her marriage.

[suepp]

Copied from the "Early Hotels" Thread

In 1929 Penrhyn Crescent lists the following: 1. Four Oaks  - Yates Mrs I.J. boarding house
2. St. Athans Pole A. & Smith J. Misses, apartments, 3.Claremont - Howell The Misses N & F & L Apartments, 4, Plas Pabo,  Wood Mrs. E. 5. East Lynne Gammon Jack. 6. Sefton Gate Levis John William, boarding estb. 1 Sefton Gate Cottage - Rogers Collin, 2 Sefton Gate Cottage Quinton G. then "Here is Gwynedd Road"

[Bri Roberts]

Thanks, suepp, for publishing this.

As the Four Oaks is larger than the Cae Mor then your evidence appears to confirm my own previous research.

Copied from the "Early Hotels" Thread

In 1929 Penrhyn Crescent lists the following: 1. Four Oaks  - Yates Mrs I.J. boarding house 2. St. Athans Pole A. & Smith J. Misses, apartments, 3.Claremont - Howell The Misses N & F & L Apartments, 4, Plas Pabo,  Wood Mrs. E. 5. East Lynne Gammon Jack.

The above is now the Four Oaks Hotel.

6. Sefton Gate Levis John William, boarding estb. 1 Sefton Gate Cottage - Rogers Collin, 2 Sefton Gate Cottage Quinton G. then "Here is Gwynedd Road"

The above is now the Cae Mor Hotel (and car park)

[emma p]

Just rang St.Hilarys Church......the lady was able(obviously) to locate John Roberts grave but there was no reference to his wife Annie, saying that if she was buried in this churchyard there would be a note. She asked if i could find out a date of death and a possible middle name to make her easier to find as there are many Ann/Annie Roberts buried there.
How do the street indexes work ? Are they yearly or every couple years or more ?
Im now on a mission to discover what happened to Annie after John died. Was wondering if she continued living in kings road or moved back to Wednesbury.
Ill have a mooch on Ancestry but can only get so far.
I have found a possible marriage for Enoch and Ann Mary-but cannot get into info.
Oct/Nov/Dec 1876-Enoch aged 23
Conway, Caenarvenshire.
Volume number 11b
Anns maiden name would also be useful.

Also 'Enock' Roberts 1871 census aged 18
born Llangwstenin
but again no further details.
Going to try and see if i can get on computers at our local library and have a mooch.

Speak soon all. 

[suepp]

http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/match.cgi?date=1876&county=northwales&reference=BA%3aCNWY%2f05%2f6&file=R&area=BA&lang=&pos=17037&prefix=BA:

North Wales BMD lists the wedding of Enock to Mary Thomas in 1876, the certificate can be obtained from Llandudno town hall.

[Hugo]

That's really good stuff Suepp.  If Emma gets a copy of the Marriage certificate, it'll have Mary's address on it and that's another path to follow.
Emma, just an update as I was in Llandudno today and called again at the Archives. There is one Annie Jane Roberts listed in the book but it definitely is not your relative as the Archives records on that grave are wrong as I paid a visit to see it.
On my way back home I took a photo of 16 Jubilee Terrace ( now Jubillee Street) and went to Llangystennin ( That's how it should be spelt)    It's called a village but in fact it's just a rural area with a few houses scattered about the area.  There is a Church there called St Cystennin and opposite it is Llangystennin Hall.     In Enoch's time the work there was mainly agriculture or in the local quarry,
I've taken a photo of the Church and of Llangystennin.     Llangystennin is the area over the motorway in the picture and the village in the foreground is Mochdre.
However I stopped at Colwyn Bay Library and had a look at the 1860 Census and this is the information I found
Living at No3 Pendyffryn Llangystennin in 1860 were:-
Richard Roberts   head of the family  Aged 44        An agricultural labourer        born   Llangystennin
Anne Roberts           wife                  Aged  ?  (couldn't read it)                         born  Llanrwst
Elizabeth   Roberts    daughter          Aged  9                                                   born  Llandrillo  { Rhos on Sea in English)
Enoch   Roberts          son                Aged  7                                                   born   Llangystennin
Evan     Roberts          son                Aged  6 months                                       born   Llangystennin

I've got a feeling that I've visited Pendyffryn  ( top or head of the valley in English)  many years ago but can't place it at the moment. It shouldn't be difficult to remember as there are so few houses there and it sounds like a terraced property and there's even less of those in Llangystennin.

[emma p]

My word Hugo, youve had a busy day.....this is great info. Id say this was definately Enochs mom and dad. The family names give it away i think and the dates all match up.
Yes suepp.thats the same marriage i found- ill ring the town hall and order a copy.
I googled LLangystennin and saw the church, its actually on St.Cystennin Road-another place to visit !
So the picture of 16,Jubilee Terrace is in Jubilee Street and thats where Enoch and Mary lived in 1891......cant understand why they moved, it seems a much bigger house than number 7
I googled Penmon, Angelsey too....and now we have a possible maiden name of Thomas for Mary(or Ann as it says on headstone).
Well Hugo, you deserve a good old drink and feet up tonight !!!

[Hugo]

Emma, regarding some of the points raised:-
The Street Index was ok until 1939 as it was also alphabetical and you could find people quite easily but after that it was a lot harder. They don't have Street Indexes at the Archives for every year, in fact they are very limited and I don't think that they do them nowadays.
Annie wasn't in the Llandudno Street index in 1922 as I've already checked that.  If Annie went back to Wednesbury with Richard you might be able to confirm this with the Register of Electors ( voters list ) for Wednesbury in 1922 or near.
If you want a birth / marriage certificate for Enoch you'd have to make an application to the Register Office at the Town Hall in Lloyd Street Llandudno and there is normally a fee for this service.  I did call to see the Registrar today but he was just going out to attend a wedding and I didn't call back.
 
I'm still trying to think where No 3 Pendyffryn could be and the only terrace I can think of in Llangystennin is the one pictured in my last photo. You can see the terrace to the left of the large pylon and  one of the houses by coincidence perhaps is actually a No 3.     

I've just had a look on Google streetview  at the No 3 Cottage in Cystennin Road and it looks a nice property, there's a dark blue 4 x 4 outside and to the right is a large white detached property.

[emma p]

Hi Hugo....i think Annie went home too. What else could she do ? When you think about it she must have been in a desperate situation....John would have been ill and unable to work and the army pension she'd have got when he died wouldnt have fed four children. I really feel for Annie. Remember also on the army casualty details she is listed as living back in Wednesbury, so may even have left llandudno whilst John was still in plas tudno hospital....there would have been no money coming in. Poor girl.
When i applied for John and Annies marriage certificate from the town hall the girl gave me loads of application forms and said that i could even just ring and do it over the phone. When i went to pick it up i was going to order Johns death cert. but the registrar got the book out for me to look at instead....saving me another £9 ! Bless him.
If i ring and speak to the same girl(suzanne) she might just have a look for me if i speak sweetly to her !! 

[dwsi]

The only Pendyffryn i know in the area are 1&2 Pendyffryn in Glanwydden which is in the parish of Llangwstennin http://bit.ly/qeb9nC

[suepp]

the people in registrars office in Llandudno have always been really helpful  and friendly when I've phoned them in the past.

[Hugo]

Dwsi, I think that you could be right about looking in the Parish of Llangystennin.       The Parish covers the village of Llangystennin itself, Glanwydden, Bryn Pydew, Pabo, Marl and Llandudno Junction.
I took Emma's advise last night and went out for a drink and have a couple of leads to go on now.  That terrace of houses in my 4th picture is called Tan Yr Allt so it is not the one we are looking for.
When I look for any graves, I make a note of other headstones near by so that I can correctly locate the one I'm looking for. Likewise on the Census I make a note of other properties around the one I am interested in but in this case I didn't do it.
So it's off to the Library asap to look at the Census records for 1860.

[Hugo]

I went along to the Library today to have a look at the 1860 Census for Enoch Roberts and took away about 20 names of surrounding properties.  I knew though straight away from the names of the houses exactly where they were. 
Dwsi was spot on, the Roberts family lived in the pretty village of Glanwydden.   
Anyway I enjoyed walking along the road to the village checking the names off and it was refreshing to see that some of the original Welsh house names were still there.   
I could see No's 1 and 2 Pendyffryn that Dwsi photographed but no No's 3 and 4.   Going from the order of houses on the Census you get Sun (now called Old Sun as it was formerly a pub) then no's 1 and 2 Pendyffryn (semi detached) then a terrace of 3 and I think that the end terrace now called "Wyncot" must have been No 3 Pendyffryn but can't prove it yet.
Glanwydden is a pretty village with a lot of history and in it's heyday had a number of pubs too.   Opposite Pendyffryn is the Old Windmill which a friend and old neighbour of mine restored some years ago.   50 yards away is the Queens Head pub and restaurant which is one of my favourite eating out places so you must put it on your places to visit when you come here next time and have a drink in the same pub that your G G Grandfather would have had one.
In the first  photo 1 and 2 Pendyffryn are the white cottages to the left. Wyncot is the end of terrace nearest them