Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961

[Helig]

There is a possible entry for Rosetta on the 1901 in Enumeration District 17of Llandegfan. There is a family living in a house by the name of Carregfelen, this is five houses along from Mull's family in Tanyfonwent (spelling as in the census return). This family is as follows:

John E Jones, head, married, age 23, Book Binder, born Blaenau Ffestiniog.
Mary Jones, wife, age 24, born Llandegfan.
William Roberts, single, age 31, Boarder, Gardener (domestic) born Llandegfan.
Owen Owens, single, Boarder, age 21, Stonemason, born Llandegfan.
Rosy Jones, age 7, Boarder, born Llandegfan.

This looks the most promising in all of the 21 pages of enumeration district 16 and 11 pages of district 17.

There is a further enumeration district called "Clio" which relates to the training ship, "Clio" shown as an Industrial Training Ship situated in the Menai Straits. This came under Llandegfan district for the census. I haven't checked for Rosetta, a quick look showed many men and boys there and this runs to eleven pages on the census.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Helig,  I've been thinking exactly the same as you about Rosetta and I did numerous methods to find her in the 1901 Census but to no avail.
I found her Baptism last night and it was in 1893 in Llandegfan but because I don't subscribe to these sites I wasn't able to look at anything else.
The Baptism records hold the key to confirm the parents but it doesn't explain where Rosetta was in 1901

[Hugo]

I've had a good look again on various free sites but still cannot find:-
a)  A birth in Llandegfan for Rosetta
b)  An entry for her in the 1901 Census

I did find a Baptism record for her in Llandegfan in 1893 but I was unable to view the details of it.     The best way now would appear to see the original Baptism record and see what it has to say.
I have only come across it once but I did see an entry when the parents names were actually the names of the Aunt and Uncle and we later found out that it was done to avoid embarrassment to the original parents.

I've found out that the Anglesey Archives are not as flexible as the Conwy Archives and if you want to visit there then you have to make an appointment prior to the visit.  If more than one person is going then an appointment needs to be made for each visitor.
Conwy Archives have no such rules and you can visit anytime within the opening hours.

I've sent an e-mail to the Anglesey Archives and I've asked them if the Baptism records for Llandegfan  C1893 and also the Burial Index for 1930 are in their building and available for anyone to look at.   An automatic response said that they hope to respond within 15 days!

[Helig]

Thank you for this information, Hugo. I don't have access to Find my Past unless I go to a library which is some distance away. I have looked on this site to see what came up for Rosetta and, like you, found a baptism for her in the Anglesey baptism records. I cannot view the details unless I sign up. There don't seem to be any other online resources for Llandegfan, Anglesey. I wonder if the Record Office in Llangefni would be willing to do a search? Some ROs will look if it takes a short amount of time. I doubt I shall be going to the library to access Find My Past in the near future.

I suspect Rosetta Jones is the Rosy Jones shown in the 1901 census living as a Boarder with John and Mary Jones. See my last post yesterday.

Helig.

[Hugo]

I suspect Rosetta Jones is the Rosy Jones shown in the 1901 census living as a Boarder with John and Mary Jones. See my last post yesterday.

Helig.

She could well be Helig but a boarder at the age of 7.   One possibility though is that for whatever reason John Jones Snr and his wife were unable to look after her in their home.
I know that something similar happened to my father as a child, so it's possible.

The Archives do have "researchers" to look for specific things but obviously there is a charge for the service.    From memory that charge wasn't dear considering when you take everything into account such as travelling costs and they know what and where to look for things.  I've a feeling that it was about £12.00 for half an hours work but I could be wrong.

[mull]

Thanks again for all this, especially how to go about getting information from Llangefni.
I hope to pay a visit to North Wales early in the new year. When I have a firm date I will book an appiontment with them.
Might need a bit of advice on how to go about this ie Census, Birth, Church records. I could be floundering around for hours as it is all new to me.

[Hugo]

Don't panic Mull, we are all here to help if we can.     

[Hugo]

Mull,  I have just had a reply to my e-mail and this is the response I got from the Anglesey Archives:-

"We do hold the Parish records for Llandegfan and we do have a burial register that covers 1930, and this can be seen here at the Archive. Unfortunately we do not have a Baptism register between 1866 and 1906, there are Bishops Transcripts in existence for this period, these are held at the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth.

Please let me know when you would like to visit to view the burial register, our opening hours are, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday 09:15 – 13:00 & 14:00 – 16:45."

I have e-mailed the National Library of Wales at Aberystwyth before and they were very helpful
gofyn@llgc.org.uk
Phone.01970 632 800

[Helig]

A change of plan which will make our lives much easier.

I am in the library where I can access Find my Past. So here it is straight from the Llandegfan Parish Registers:

Llandegfan church, 24 September 1893, baptised Rosetta, daughter of John and Margaret Jones. Abode: Tan y Fonwent. Occupation: labourer.

The spelling of the abode is as per the register entry.

The other children were baptised as follows:

28 September 1879, Zachariah, son of John and Margaret Jones. Abode: Rallt. Occupation: Police Officer.

29 July 1881, Thomas Llewelyn, son of John and Margaret Jones, Abode: ---chester. Occupation: Police Officer. Abode looks like Manchester but it is difficult to read the first 3 letters.

1882 (no date but pre 16 April 1882 as that is the next entry) John Jones, son of John and Margaret Jones, abode: Beudy newydd, occupation: Labourer.

23 November 1884, John Theophilus, illeg, son of John Jones, abode: Tanyfonwent, occupation: Labourer and Phoebe Roberts, abode: Clorobras (). In the entry, the names of John and Margaret were entered, then Margaret's name crossed out. In the section where the name of John Theophilus is entered, "illeg" has been written underneath the names.

14 March 1886, Frederick, son of John and Margaret Jones, Abode: Tanyfonwent. Occupation: Labourer.

3 May 1891, Alfred, son of John and Margaret Jones, note states, "3 years old". Abode: Tanyfynwent, occupation: Parish Clerk which has been crossed out. On the same day, they baptised Eleazer, son of John and Margaret Jones, Tanyfynwent, occupation: Parish Clerk, again this has been crossed out. There are some letters written underneath but it is impossible to decipher these.

Eleazer Jones was buried in Llandegfan on 29 October 1925, abode: Tanyfynwent, age 34 years. His name is spelt Eleazer in the registers.

There is a burial on 15 November 1893 for Margaret Jones, abode Tanyfonwent, age 37 years.

There is a marriage for John Jones, senior, as follows:

29 January 1901, John Jones, widower, age 45, occupation: Parish Clerk, abode: Tanyfonwent, father: Zachariah Jones, occupation: Fuller. Mary Ann Williams, spinster, age 42, abode: Tanywern, father David Williams, occupation: Gardener. The witnesses were: John Williams and Hannah Jones.

This has answered some questions but thrown up others 

One strange matter is that the only baptism I can find for John Jones bc1855, is on 9 May 1856, when John Jones was baptised, son of Henry and Jane Jones, abode: Dauglawdd, occupation: labourer.

It would be a good idea to do a search of the Llandegfan registers to see if there are any more children but I will leave that to another day.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Wow, you've been really busy on the Baptism search Helig and found loads of info for Mull and a great find with the Baptism of Rosetta on 24th Sept 1893.

The one for November 1884, John Theophilus, illeg, son of John Jones, abode: Tanyfonwent, occupation: Labourer and Phoebe Roberts, abode: Clorobras  was very interesting.    I mentioned John Theophilus on pg 2  but your find means that he was the illegitimate son of John Jones Snr.   

Date wise Nov 1884 would match the age of Mull's Taid John Jnr,    so was his Taid John Theophilus or is there another Baptism record for a John Jones son of John and Margaret Jones still to be found?


  .

[mull]

Thanks for that Helig.

Looks like we have traced Rosetta, 24/9/1893. Looks like her mother died shortly after the birth, burial 15/11/1893.

Hugo, what I can find for taid is his birth year in the Seamans Discharge Book is 1883.
That is a long way off 12 November 1884.

[Hugo]

Hugo, what I can find for taid is his birth year in the Seamans Discharge Book is 1883.
That is a long way off 12 November 1884.

Amongst Helig's finds is a Baptism for John Jones but this John Jones was Baptised prior to 16th April 1882,  but the Seamans Discharge book that you've seen said that your Taid wasn't born until 1983 which doesn't fit in with Helig's find.    Another puzzle perhaps?

"1882 (no date but pre 16 April 1882 as that is the next entry) John Jones, son of John and Margaret Jones, abode: Beudy newydd, occupation: Labourer."

[mull]

Got to be up early tomorrow, off to Oban shopping Mrs Mull in the lead.

Be back on the case Friday.

[Helig]

There are more questions than answers which tends to be a frequent occurrence in genealogy.

Although John Theophilus Jones was baptised in 1884, he could have been born earlier, there was no rule as to when children were baptised, it was usually within days. or weeks, of birth but I have known children to be baptised up to 10 years after birth. It can happen that they are baptised as an adult in the event they weren't baptised as a child. My query is whether John T would have been named Jones, or Roberts? It would be usual for an illegitimate child to take their mother's name.

Just to complicate matters, I have found Theophilus Roberts in the 1891 census. The family is living in Bodwylog. He is with his mother's family, details are:

Hugh Roberts, head, age 65, married, Farmer, born Anglesey, Cl------ (I cannot decipher).
Mary Roberts, wife, age 60, born Llandegfan.
Phoebe Roberts, daughter, age 30, Farmer's daughter, born Llandegfan
Emma Roberts, age 26, daughter, Dressmaker, born Llandegfan
Edwin Roberts, age 21, son, Farmer's son, born Llandegfan.
John Roberts, age 19, son, Blacksmith, born Llandegfan.
Theophilus Roberts, grandson, age 6, born Llandegfan.

In the 1881 census the family is living at Clowbras and Phoebe is included.

There is a death for a John T Jones in Anglesey East in December 1951, year of birth shown as 1884.

I have found John Jones in the 1911 census, he is in "Tanfynwent", Llandegfan, it shows:

John Jones, age 55, married 10 years, General Labourer, born Anglesey, Pentraeth.
Mary Ann Jones, age 52, born Llandegfan.

The enumerator's schedule shows the address as, "Tanyfonwent".

I wonder if Rosetta was boarded elsewhere due to John having remarried in 1901?

To be continued....

Helig

[Hugo]

Rhuddlan has sent me a copy of the 1901 Census and thought perhaps Rosy Jones was in fact Rosetta Jones.     You have already thought of this in your posting on 29th November 2016.
The age and place of birth would appear to agree with the Baptism record for Rosetta that you have found.

As regards John Jones Jnr that is still a puzzle,  the date of Baptism pre 16th April will be correct but it does not fit in with Mull's date of birth of John in 1883.   Perhaps the date of birth on the papers that Mull has is incorrect because if he was Mull's Taid then he would have had to be born in 1882 or prior.

With John Theophilus he seems to have been given the surname of Roberts which as you say was the normal practice then