Author Topic: European Union Vote  (Read 145013 times)

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Offline Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #300 on: July 01, 2016, 02:28:56 pm »
On your first point they have to make land in one country, obviously, and that's where they have to register.  After that they might well choose to move to a country where they have relatives or - because your forebears attempted to eliminate them in genocidal attacks and, many years later, attempted to exploit them once they discovered the value of oil and essentially occupied them for many years - they speak English and wanted to choose a country where English is spoken.  Those from ex-colonies tend to head back to the occupying country.  That's why France has so many.
So all these people from Syria and Afghanistan attempting to enter the UK speak English...really?  :laugh:

Is that what I said? "All these people"? Come on, Dave; no need for straw men.  You're better than that :-))

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More interestingly, do you really believe the country in which they first arrive should be the only one that accepts responsibility for them?
But isn't that the EU policy now? Hasn't the EU done a deal with Turkey for them to contain all the migrants there? Hasn't Donald Tusk told migrants they are not welcome in Europe?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/donald-tusk-economic-migrants-do-not-come-to-europe

Indeed, the EU is attempting to stem the tide of migrating Arabs and we have no idea as to how effective that policy will be.  The problem is that the EU's leaders had no coherent policy whatsoever at the outset. It's that lack of forethought that's created so many issues.

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On the second point you say "large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place." but are they claiming asylum? I also dispute your claim they're a 'Large number', certainly from the Far East. And being in or out of the EU will make absolutely no difference to those seeking to get into the UK.

And describing Africa and the Far East as places "where there is no conflict taking place" is incorrect. Islamic insurgencies and terrorism have always been an issue in the Far East while Africa was where ISIS was almost certainly formed and is gradually becoming a battleground between ISIS and moderates in Islam.
Well, approx 175,000 migrants came to Europe from Afghanistan alone in 2015, so I suppose it depends upon what you'd call a large number. Seems pretty large to me.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911

Er... they're not actually in the Far East. The Far East is generally considered to include China, Hong Kong, Macau, Japan, Mongolia, Noprth and South Korea, Taiwan, Brunei, Cambodia, E Timor, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Burma - well, you get the drift.

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And your argument regarding immigration fails to even mention that the country from which the most migrants arrive is India. Nothing to do with the EU, then.
Not according to this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911

But the official statistical return shows "Net migration of EU citizens was estimated to be 184,000.  Non-EU net migration was 188,000. The largest number of applications for asylum, including dependants, came from nationals of Iran (4,811; +2,324), followed by Pakistan (3,511; -1), Iraq (3,374; +2,367), Eritrea (3,340; -270) and Afghanistan (3,133; +1,423). There were 2,235 (+680) Syrian nationals granted asylum or an alternative form of protection in the YE March 2016 and a further 1,667 Syrian nationals granted humanitarian protection under the Syrian Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme.

But the reality is making sense of the statistics on immigration is a mammoth task.  But this is a summary:
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Finally, I will answer your question, despite the fact that you've dodged mine. I do believe the UK has a global responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves. If we're such a wealthy country, as the Leave camp kept telling us throughout their campaign, then obviously we could easily cope with a several million.  Unless of course, the Leave campaign was telling porkies...
No-one is saying that we shouldn't help people less fortunate than themselves. But surely it's better to help them in their own country or one nearby than expecting them to trek thousands of miles across unfamiliar countries to somewhere where they have no home, job, family?

On that we're in complete agreement. I suspect the problems have arisen because of the ISIS threats, the randomly-imposed imposition of their brand of Sharia law and the rather dissolute nature of the previous Arab governments.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Bosun

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #301 on: July 01, 2016, 08:53:29 pm »
This web-site was drawn to my attention a day or so ago, I'm embarrassed to say that I had no idea of it's existence until then -

https://fullfact.org/

Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.


Offline Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #302 on: July 02, 2016, 08:09:10 am »
Yes;  it's not always accurate, but it seems better than many.  But it's been open to a lot of criticism - not only because it's owned by a leading Tory donor:

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #303 on: July 02, 2016, 02:03:46 pm »
From the Guardian yesterday:

"There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported, as migrants are taunted on the street, told to pack their bags and get out – as if 23 June were a permission slip to every racist and bigot in the land."

Pure sophistry? I don't think so.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SDQ

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Valar Morghulis

Offline SDQ

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #305 on: July 04, 2016, 10:36:24 am »
Valar Morghulis

Offline DaveR

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #306 on: July 04, 2016, 10:57:12 am »
From the Guardian yesterday:

"There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported, as migrants are taunted on the street, told to pack their bags and get out – as if 23 June were a permission slip to every racist and bigot in the land."

Pure sophistry? I don't think so.
Sounds impressive..until you actually read the original article it quotes, where it clearly states...

"It is important to remember that this is only one reporting mechanism and extensive focus on this issue in the last few days will have influenced these numbers by making hate crime and the site more visible and encouraging people to report.  We also cannot determine how many of reports are linked to the referendum."

http://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/sara-thornton-blog-unity-and-respect-needed-not-hate-crime-30-june-2016

Offline Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #307 on: July 04, 2016, 11:41:59 am »
Sound advice that any reader of an article should follow, but I'm not sure how it changes the pertinent and essential fact: "There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported"
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline born2run

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #308 on: July 04, 2016, 12:32:33 pm »
coincidence

 _))*

Offline DaveR

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #309 on: July 04, 2016, 01:13:22 pm »
Sound advice that any reader of an article should follow, but I'm not sure how it changes the pertinent and essential fact: "There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported"
How can it be a fact when no numbers are quoted as to the actual number of incidents?

Offline SDQ

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #310 on: July 04, 2016, 01:19:44 pm »
The actual numbers were quoted in the link I posted after Ian's initial post.

“Since last Thursday, 331 hate crime incidents have been reported to the national online reporting site True Vision compared to the weekly average of 63 reports,” Sara Thornton, head of the NPCC, wrote, adding that, although “many people are reporting hate crime than ever before,” it remains “significantly under reported.”
Valar Morghulis

Offline Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #311 on: July 04, 2016, 02:39:29 pm »
On other forums people are reporting a lot of low-level (but nevertheless highly upsetting) incidents of anti-European abuse.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Big Alan

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #312 on: July 04, 2016, 03:39:47 pm »
Have a look at 'worrying signs' group on Facebook. Some nasty stuff on there.
Justice for the 96

Offline Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #313 on: July 04, 2016, 04:17:10 pm »
Some disturbing examples on there Big Al!  :o :o :o
Fester...
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Offline Bosun

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #314 on: July 04, 2016, 06:47:02 pm »
One thing has been a real puzzle to me; if Farage knew on the morning after the vote that the £350m to the NHS was 'a mistake', apart from the obvious conclusion that it was a lie by ommission of monumental proportions, what other reason could there be for him not saying this earlier? .........
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.