Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno

[Fester]

Jonty makes several good points though, and one of them is lost in the debate about whether the elderly population get replenished by those who are getting old.

Yes, of course people are living longer, but those who are elderly NOW, seem to have a few bob to spend on themselves and their grand-kids.
It may be from the sale of nice houses, comfortable pensions, savings or whatever.

But, (and here's the the rub)... every day I see middle aged people, or 40-somethings who are the next generation of 'elderlies'... they have precious little money, no properties to sell, no fat pensions to cash in, but they have loads of kids/grandchildren.
However, in the past they could afford to spoil them, but now all I hear is.....'put that down, you had an ice cream, there's no more money'
Why bring kids to the seaside, if you can't afford to treat them?

5 years from now, no one will be able to afford a day out, or a holiday of any kind.
Those who can afford it, will find everything closed down, as there are insufficient customers 'year-round' to make it viable to pay the rent.
It will be a case of letting kids play on the X-box for 364 days a year, and then open their new version of it on Xmas day.

[Trojan]

but the old adage of "it all went down hill when package holidays became cheap" still stands.

Hit the nail on the head there Jonty. 

[Gaylord Screwsby]

Jonty makes several good points though, and one of them is lost in the debate about whether the elderly population get replenished by those who are getting old.

Yes, of course people are living longer, but those who are elderly NOW, seem to have a few bob to spend on themselves and their grand-kids.
It may be from the sale of nice houses, comfortable pensions, savings or whatever.

But, (and here's the the rub)... every day I see middle aged people, or 40-somethings who are the next generation of 'elderlies'... they have precious little money, no properties to sell, no fat pensions to cash in, but they have loads of kids/grandchildren.
However, in the past they could afford to spoil them, but now all I hear is.....'put that down, you had an ice cream, there's no more money'
Why bring kids to the seaside, if you can't afford to treat them?

5 years from now, no one will be able to afford a day out, or a holiday of any kind.
Those who can afford it, will find everything closed down, as there are insufficient customers 'year-round' to make it viable to pay the rent.
It will be a case of letting kids play on the X-box for 364 days a year, and then open their new version of it on Xmas day.

You've obviously been listening to me telling my kids the piggy bank is empty.

[Ian]

every day I see middle aged people, or 40-somethings who are the next generation of 'elderlies'... they have precious little money, no properties to sell, no fat pensions to cash in, but they have loads of kids/grandchildren. However, in the past they could afford to spoil them, but now all I hear is.....'put that down, you had an ice cream, there's no more money'

They may tell their children they have no money but that - interestingly - is how a lot of extremely wealthy people get both to make and keep their money. You're probably meeting a lot of closet millionaires, F :-)

5 years from now, no one will be able to afford a day out, or a holiday of any kind.

I thin that's being unduly pessimistic, but Llandudno's best days are behind it, beyond a doubt. In the '50s families came, often by bus or train, for a week or two at a time and yet, even then, the busiest weeks were the so-called 'factory fortnights'.  Patterns have changed, now, but more importantly so have expectations.  While I was uploading the 1950 Llandudno Holiday brochure I did a few quick sums, and discovered that a family of four who wanted a week in the Hydro, for example, would have paid - in real terms - what it would cost a family of four to fly to Orlando and stay on iDrive.  Among the many problems the town faces is an ageing and expensive-to-maintain hotel sector. The Clarence renovation could provide a way forward, but gutting and rebuilding are most like the only options to make some of the hotels viable propositions. 

Those who can afford it, will find everything closed down, as there are insufficient customers 'year-round' to make it viable to pay the rent.

The past few years have seen a reversal of the trend whereby many cafes closed seasonally. The cable car, one of the premier attractions, will probably be defeated by excess winds too often in the off-season but the trams could certainly operate for longer than they do.  That, however, would probably depend on the Orme summit opening for longer.

I think if the period since 2001 has been notable for one thing, it's been the loss of confidence and the unwillingness to take chances. And that does much more damage than anything else.

[Jonty Hammers]

In response to DaveR:

Indeed sir! People do still get old, but the point I was aiming at (and which, admittedly, didn't come off all too clear in my post) is that Llandudno is only aiming at a certain generation. While I don't doubt that older people of any generation would prefer a more leisurely pace once they enter "later" life, the tastes and things they expect during that time will change; purely because tastes change over time. I suppose this is why nowadays, when better-off people retire, rather than heading over to Margate, Llandudno etc as their parents did, they are now moving to the Continent.

We do of course need to attract people in that bracket, who have a greater disposable income - but unlike their parents' generation, they will search out for something other than the mix of comfortable benches, candy floss and reasonably-priced tea.

Fester covers the other angle (that of the people that don't have much money to spend) rather well - though in answer to his question of "Why bring kids to the seaside, if you can't afford to treat them?", I'd say the day out at the seaside is thought of as a treat in and of itself. Not to generalise, but a lot of these families will come from large urban centres where the kids will have little chance to see the seaside or what is usually termed "the great outdoors". Giving them the chance to play on a beach is a bit of a treat.

Though I also concede that while it might be no harm in adding an ice cream or bucket or spade to that list, in many instances, the family involved has scraped just enough to afford to get to Llandudno, stay in a hotel and pay for their dinners/breakfasts while there. The extra top-up costs of amusements; souvenirs; sweets; burgers etc can add up to a fair bit when all taken in to consideration, especially when as Fester notes, you have a load of kids/grandkids all of whom you want to treat equally.

[No 6]

When I was a kid my grandparents or parents would pop us in the back of a Ford Pop, or worse, our old Ford van, and trundle off along the A roads in a seemingly never ending journey to Llandudno.

For my parents - with the farm - it was often out and back in a day. But grandad and grandma ran to few days away. I do still recall the trams, steam trains, open top buses, Prof Cadman's Punch and Judy, and bands on the stand, trips from the pier, and a whole more innocent way of life.

The intervening years have seen costs, and speed, of travel change out of all recognition, and the British tourism market more or less give up an unequal struggle. The people who stay at home are generally those who can't afford to fly, don't want to, or are in no position to, the insufferable or the incapable. No one should have to suffer the former - the latter - poor souls - should not form the staple fodder of any business witha forward looking outlook.

Time my journey right and I can do SK14 to Llandudno prom in in less then 90 mins. No need to stay in stuffy outdated hotels. I can eat when I get back, so no need to patronise third rate eateries with no intention of selling a quality product. No need to spend in the same chain stores I see at home, and with the calibre of vehicle passing for trains, and coaches, these days with your legs round your neck - I would rather have my choice of speed, temperature, music and company thank you!

Across the extremes of Liverpool Bay, Blackpool and Llandudno stare at each other, all but out of sight, and as different as chalk and cheese in the markets they serve and the way they have developed.

The iron hand of Mostyn Estates has stopped all but the most innocent of tourism developments in North Wales. No blaring night clubs or discos, no vast amusement arcades, but - equally, no night time atmosphere at all.  Wouldn't the summit complex as a high class eatery with supporting twinkling trams be a winner? If some of the hotels on the front opened their doors and windows to the bay and to business, perhaps people would circulate more and test out the market, rather than vegetate in their booked hotel.

Get a restauranteur of name into the old Grand Pavilion site - CPO it if possible, and bring some life to the prom - yes - bands! but some rock, some country, and some celtic, and bring the town to life after seven o clock, perhaps even one day - toastracks to the Little Orme again - in your dreams!

Some night life is an absolute necessity to bring some evening atmosphere back - but NOT - oh no! most definitely not - the innumerable stag and hen parties of Blackpool. or the fate that has taken over everything behind the golden mile, square miles of boarding houses turned over to DSS - Llandudno has avoided that with its retirement market outbidding the buy to let crowd.

In summary - daytime - Llandudno needs little change in its offer - perhaps a better park and ride scenario - but after six - it needs a rocket, but a subtle, well tuned one to match the daytime tastes of its patrons.

What it must not do is stand still.

[DaveR]

Very perceptive, No.6 

[Fester]

Jonty makes several, erudite, articulate points, but ultimately the main thrust is economically naive.

You see, there is nothing wrong (ostensibly) with having a free day wandering around the Orme, or climbing up it.
There is most certainly a place for that.
But more and more these days that is all visitors can AFFORD to do.

So, investment will stagnate, rents will NEVER fall, and less and less businesses will be able to survive.

The phrase I hear most often from visitors, more than any other by far is..... 'why is everything closed?

The inescapable answer to that is, 'if they were economically viable to be open, they would be'

[Ian]

Wouldn't the summit complex as a high class eatery with supporting twinkling trams be a winner?

Interesting - and appealing - idea. I can see only two problems: for high-class eateries, people like to dress up. In the autumn and winter, however, the weather is probably going to deter them - firstly from travelling up in an open tram and, secondly, actually making it from the Tram to the complex.  The second one is the risk element.

But I really like the 'twinkling tram' concept. Riding up there in the dark then looking down on the lights of Llandudno would be an interesting experience, and could prove a profitable one.

[Yorkie]

Time to start Three Towns Tourism Enterprises Plc?     

[Merddin Emrys]

Quite often the weather forcasts predict bad weather and often the weather turns out to be much better, by that time of cause day trippers have decided not to bother coming! How much does that cost the economy I wonder?

[Ian]

Quite often the weather forcasts predict bad weather and often the weather turns out to be much better, by that time of cause day trippers have decided not to bother coming! How much does that cost the economy I wonder?

Llandudno's weather is interesting, as you could say it really enjoys its own little micro-climate. The rainfall on the Orme is about 11 inches per year, compared with more than 60 per year in Betws and twice that in Capel.  'Sunny Llandudno' isn't a myth;  the old tourist brochures had it spot on.

[TheMedz]

Quite often the weather forcasts predict bad weather and often the weather turns out to be much better, by that time of cause day trippers have decided not to bother coming! How much does that cost the economy I wonder?

Llandudno's weather is interesting, as you could say it really enjoys its own little micro-climate. The rainfall on the Orme is about 11 inches per year, compared with more than 60 per year in Betws and twice that in Capel.  'Sunny Llandudno' isn't a myth;  the old tourist brochures had it spot on.

Although it was difficult to tell because of the winds I think all 11 inches of that might have fallen on our house last year.

[snowcap]

bet that blocked your gutters. lol

[TheMedz]

I just knew the gutters would get a mention. Thanks for the help getting them unblocked.