Llandudno railway station

[SDQ]

I think the reason may be that they need to take a possession of the line after the last train has left before the lights are placed in position so the work can begin.
With respect to train drivers I think your simplistic description of their job is very naive. You can train to drive a bus in a week or two but train drivers train for months before being fully passed out as they need extensive route knowledge of signalling, points, speeds, braking distances, extensive rule book knowledge, knowledge of the various trains they operate, etc... They are not paid so much for what they do on a day to day basis but also on what they need know at times of emergency as well.

[Bigmurph]

Well explained sdq 

[Ian]

You can train to drive a bus in a week or two but train drivers train for months before being fully passed out as they need extensive route knowledge of signalling, points, speeds, braking distances, extensive rule book knowledge, knowledge of the various trains they operate, etc

Not sure you can 'train to drive a bus in a week or two' because that analogy omits the entire 'learning to drive' bit.  There's a lot involved in driving a train, that's true, but trains have the distinct advantage that they're on tracks, so little steering is required :-)))  However, I have a pilots licence and learning to fly a plane was significantly easier than learning to drive a car, IME. But there are many different ratings a pilot must acquire before they're capable of flying the big stuff so I'm guessing train driving is similar.

[SDQ]

Not sure you can 'train to drive a bus in a week or two' because that analogy omits the entire 'learning to drive' bit.  There's a lot involved in driving a train, that's true, but trains have the distinct advantage that they're on tracks, so little steering is required :-)))  However, I have a pilots licence and learning to fly a plane was significantly easier than learning to drive a car, IME. But there are many different ratings a pilot must acquire before they're capable of flying the big stuff so I'm guessing train driving is similar.

Seeing as you need a UK driving licence before you start training for a PCV the basic 'learning to drive bit' is already covered and myself and many colleagues did indeed learn to drive a bus in a week or two depending on aptitude.

[Ian]

Seeing as you need a UK driving licence before you start training for a PCV the basic 'learning to drive bit' is already covered and myself and many colleagues did indeed learn to drive a bus in a week or two depending on aptitude.

I think you're missing the point.  You still have to learn to drive in the first place before you can then acquire your PSV or HGV licenses.  With train driving, you start from scratch, I'd have thought, unless you had a particularity large model railway...

[Yorkie]

Bit like making model radio controlled planes and then getting a pilots license!   

[SDQ]

Seeing as you need a UK driving licence before you start training for a PCV the basic 'learning to drive bit' is already covered and myself and many colleagues did indeed learn to drive a bus in a week or two depending on aptitude.

I think you're missing the point.  You still have to learn to drive in the first place before you can then acquire your PSV or HGV licenses.  With train driving, you start from scratch, I'd have thought, unless you had a particularity large model railway...

That was kinda what I was getting at in my original post before you decided to pick holes in it by saying I was wrong with the PCV part.

[Ian]

Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly enough. After Mike's comment regarding train drivers you said

"You can train to drive a bus in a week or two but train drivers train for months"

which is clearly wrong, because you failed (or didn't understand that you needed) to take into account that you need a driving licence before you can even start to train as a PSV or HGV driver.  That driving licence - in other words an essential part of being able to drive a bus - takes a fair bit of time to acquire, and not just 'a Couple of weeks". 

So in summary:

To drive a train from scratch: train for months before being fully passed out
Total: several months

To drive a bus: take driving lessons for several months. If test passed, then take a coupoe of weeks' lessons to acquire PSV ior HGV licence.
Total: several months.

Mike's view was far from being naive. As a coach driver he had no tracks to point him in the right direction but he still had to learn all the signals, acquire extensive route knowledge of signalling, junctions, speeds, braking distances, extensive highway code knowledge, knowledge of the various coaches he'd operate, etc.

[SDQ]

Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly enough. After Mike's comment regarding train drivers you said

"You can train to drive a bus in a week or two but train drivers train for months"

which is clearly wrong, because you failed (or didn't understand that you needed) to take into account that you need a driving licence before you can even start to train as a PSV or HGV driver.  That driving licence - in other words an essential part of being able to drive a bus - takes a fair bit of time to acquire, and not just 'a Couple of weeks". 

So in summary:

To drive a train from scratch: train for months before being fully passed out
Total: several months

To drive a bus: take driving lessons for several months. If test passed, then take a coupoe of weeks' lessons to acquire PSV ior HGV licence.
Total: several months.

Mike's view was far from being naive. As a coach driver he had no tracks to point him in the right direction but he still had to learn all the signals, acquire extensive route knowledge of signalling, junctions, speeds, braking distances, extensive highway code knowledge, knowledge of the various coaches he'd operate, etc.

Pedantic in the extreme!

[DaveR]

Being fair, it was Mike that first suggested that the job of a Train Driver was a simple one, which is obviously not the case:

Once you start work, your training period would normally last between 9 and 18 months. Some of your training may take place in a cab simulator, which gives the effect of real-life situations such as trackside dangers, bad weather and mechanical failure.

Your training would be split into stages, including:

rules and regulations – driver cab controls, signalling systems and track safety
traction knowledge – engine layout, safety systems and fault identification
train handling – 200 to 300 hours' practical driving skills, including night driving
route knowledge – route-specific information, such as braking distances, speed restrictions and signal positions.

You must pass assessments at the end of each stage to fully qualify as a train driver. You would also complete a Personal Track Safety (PTS) certificate during the training period. You can only drive on routes you have been assessed on, so you would continue to learn more routes once you qualify.

https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/traindriver.aspx

[Michael]

  Can I please take the prize for starting off the best argument in the forum for some time.
  Including, of course, two moderators apparently on different sides of this particular fence.

  What do I think?

  We'll of course I stick by my original post. Train driviers don't have to dodge running children, large and small vehicles etc etc.  they work in an orderly way, albeit smothered with regulations to learn.
I,be never met a coach/lorry driver yet who was on top of the regulations, he is too busy avoiding the car coming the wrong way up the A55 (it happens, you could almost say frequently)
 
  After all this, I completely accept that if the flod lights in Llandudno station have to be placed in the middle of the track --- we'll yes. It would have to be done after the last train has gone home with the nice, secure, we'll planned out driver at the controls (and DONT forget the pay)
   

[DaveR]

Just for a little counter argument....do Coach Drivers have to deal with suicide cases throwing themselves under the train right in front of your eyes? Or Kids throwing bricks at the windscreen? Or morons leaving shopping trolleys etc on the line to try and derail the train? All these things happen on a semi-regular basis, even here in sleepy North Wales.

[Ian]

Pedantic in the extreme!

If by that you mean accurate and understandable, then I agree. It's pretty simple: Mike suggested train drivers weren't that much better trained than coach drivers, and you said he was being naive.  What I'm saying is that had you not implied that learning to drive buses was a 'two week' course, compared with train driving,. I wouldn't have written a word.

Just for a little counter argument....do Coach Drivers have to deal with suicide cases throwing themselves under the train right in front of your eyes? Or Kids throwing bricks at the windscreen? Or morons leaving shopping trolleys etc on the line to try and derail the train?

I believe that sort of thing happens on a fairly regular basis in the urban areas.

There's also another point: in the ongoing pursuit to eradicate rail accidents warning systems in place automatically alert not only the driver, but also affect the train itself, in case the driver has fallen asleep or passed out. In fact, total automation of trains is not only possible, but taking place at the moment. Driverless trains, it can be argued, are not only safer, faster and more punctual but more cost-effective.

[Ian]

Driverless trains ae a fascinating subject.  In the UK alone, the London Docklands railway, the Victoria, Central and Jubilee lines and the Gatwick terminal transfer system are all unmanned, as is the Glasgow subway system. Throughout the world, more than 80 railways run entirely without drivers in more than 40 countries, so I suppose the question is not whether train drivers are supposedly much better trained than coach drivers but rather whether we need train drivers at all.

Interestingly there are no automated coach or bus systems yet. The reason is simple: currently, no AI system can cope with the immense demands of driving on a road.

[DaveR]

Interestingly there are no automated coach or bus systems yet. The reason is simple: currently, no AI system can cope with the immense demands of driving on a road.

I'd have said it's far more to do with the fact that the environment can be controlled far more easily on the rail network. Having said that, how would the driver-less train cope with yobs throwing something on the line?

Going back to the train vs coach driver discussion, it's also important to remember that train drivers have the safety of far more people as their responsibility - there are 589 seats on an extended Pendolino, plus possibly up to another 200+ standing if the train was exceptionally busy. That's nearly 800 people that the train driver has responsibility for.