Crime and criminals

[Yorkie]

Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?

What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.

The "Grace of God" is an expression often used in British parlance to indicate that circumstances could have been different and led to a similar situation arising. 
 WWW

[Mr Tunnock]

Are you saying he did not intimidate a witness  and the others in the fraud were innocent and the eight pleaded guilty in error?



"Also jailed were footballer Robert Williams, 32, of Lon Padog, Conwy, who until yesterday played for Llangefni Town FC.
He was locked up for 22 months and his brother David Williams, 30, of First Avenue, Rhos on Sea, got 15 months.

There were 11 defendants in total, all involved to a greater or lesser extent, but only seven received custodial sentences.
Now they all face financial ruin because a specialist financial investigation under The Proceeds of Crime now takes place to strip them of their ill-gotten assets.

They covered 24 fraudulent application in respect of 11 different properties in the Conwy area. Judge Rogers said the loss to the building societies was £190,000."
"The other eight people all pleaded guilty. They included Patrick and Jean Kirkwood of Acorn Services, who Jones had embroiled to provide false payslips and other false documents."

[Ian]

That's odd. On September 10th 2014 you claimed to not personally know Mr Creamer but now say that you do in fact know him and have met him on a number of occasions?
You must have been very busy with him over the last four months!

Quote from Yorkie on Jan 19th 2015

SDQ, exactly, you have hit the nail on the head!  When have you or DaveR met him?  Or are you just repeating what you have heard or read in the sensationalist Media?

I think SDQ was referring to this post:

Quote from Yorkie on Sep 10th 2014

As I do not personally know Mr Creamer, I do not know if he is the one or not and am only able quote from the information I have available.   Are you saying that it IS the same Mr Creamer?

[Mr Tunnock]

Sorry Mr Admin, I thought Yorkie was trying to say that Mr Creamer was wrongly convicted of the crimes.
I must admit I have never moved in the sort of circles that would have ever acquainted me with Creamer of his associates, I must have led a very hum drum existence, on the plus side I have a quiet life.

[Ian]

Nothing to apologise for, Mr T;  I was simply attempting to clarify things for SDQ.

Yorkie - 10th Sep 2014

As I do not personally know Mr Creamer, I do not know if he is the one or not and am only able quote from the information I have available.   Are you saying that it IS the same Mr Creamer?

Yorkie 19th Jan 2015

you are totally unaware that I do know the person in question, have met him on a number of occasions

SDQ 19th Jan 2015

That's odd. On September 10th 2014 you claimed to not personally know Mr Creamer but now say that you do in fact know him and have met him on a number of occasions?
You must have been very busy with him over the last four months!

[Yorkie]

There are two Mr Creamers. Father and Son.  Some reports have confused the two.  I know the Father. 

[Ian]

The one mentioned here:


http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1961.msg76601.html#msg76601

[Mr Tunnock]

"A MAN who played a “significant role” in a plot to flood North Wales with illegal drugs has been locked up for seven years.
Michael John Creamer was the last of 24 men and a woman to be sentenced for their part in a conspiracy which ran from November 2010 to May last year."


The son of the same name, my goodness some mother's do have them.

[Yorkie]

Hence the confusion Mr T.   Dad is known as Mick, Son as Mike or Michael.  Sorry, it has been a trying time for all of us! 
 ZXZ

[MikeDyson]

Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?

What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.

How do you know mortgage companies were defrauded? Not one single morgage company, financial institution, buissiness or any individual made a complaint against Mr or Mrs Creamer, this was a case of no complainie or victim, no loses were made, except to the tax payer to the tune of about five million pounds in bringing this sham to court.
Sitting in glass houses and spouting untruths is all well and good, I sugest your put your arguments straight to Mr and Mrs Creamer, they are two of the most approachable people I've had the good fortune to meet.

[DaveR]

Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?

What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.

How do you know mortgage companies were defrauded? Not one single morgage company, financial institution, buissiness or any individual made a complaint against Mr or Mrs Creamer, this was a case of no complainie or victim, no loses were made, except to the tax payer to the tune of about five million pounds in bringing this sham to court.
Sitting in glass houses and spouting untruths is all well and good, I sugest your put your arguments straight to Mr and Mrs Creamer, they are two of the most approachable people I've had the good fortune to meet.

The Daily Post article says they were convicted of 'conspiracy to commit mortgage fraud'. Is that untrue?

[MikeDyson]

Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?

What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.

How do you know mortgage companies were defrauded? Not one single morgage company, financial institution, buissiness or any individual made a complaint against Mr or Mrs Creamer, this was a case of no complainie or victim, no loses were made, except to the tax payer to the tune of about five million pounds in bringing this sham to court.
Sitting in glass houses and spouting untruths is all well and good, I sugest your put your arguments straight to Mr and Mrs Creamer, they are two of the most approachable people I've had the good fortune to meet.

The Daily Post article says they were convicted of 'conspiracy to commit mortgage fraud'. Is that untrue?

The Daily Post also stated they owed nearly one million pounds to proceeds of crime when in fact the figure ordered was less than half that amount, check last Saturdays Post to see the apologie to Mr and Mrs Creamer, I understand that Mr Creamer has instructed his legal team accordingly.

[Mr Tunnock]

What about the others in the same trial, they pleaded guilty, were they innocent?
I suppose the intimidation of a witness was a misunderstanding Mike and should never have got to court?

What about Steven Stanley Dickens who went to jail for the same offences?
The law is the law, we might not like some of the laws but there we are, trial by jury and found guilty by jury, case closed.
If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

[MikeDyson]

What about the others in the same trial, they pleaded guilty, were they innocent?
I suppose the intimidation of a witness was a misunderstanding Mike and should never have got to court?

What about Steven Stanley Dickens who went to jail for the same offences?
The law is the law, we might not like some of the laws but there we are, trial by jury and found guilty by jury, case closed.
If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

Have you ever met Mr Creamer? Or do you just judge from the safety of your computer? Myself personally I judge a person by what I see and hear face to face. As far as the law is concerned don't be so naive, you obviously have lived a very insular existence.
As for Dickens in his case there were both victims and loss, in Mr and Mrs Creamers there were not.

[Hugo]

Are you saying with the benefit of meeting Mr Cramer that he didn't commit any mortgage fraud and there has been a grave miscarriage of justice?