Author Topic: Crime and criminals  (Read 246201 times)

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Offline Cambrian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #690 on: March 08, 2014, 10:42:03 am »
Only short time ago, any assault on those carrying out public duties merited an immediate custodial sentence.  This acted as a deterrent but that aspect no longer seems an ingredient in sentencing policy. If a nursing or ambulance staff are put off work because of an assault, that can mean problems for others.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #691 on: March 08, 2014, 11:25:19 pm »
It seems this Human Rights business has gone too far to the extreme and I wonder sometimes if some of these defence lawyers are more interested in getting their clients off on technicalities rather than seeing that justice has been served.
If you listen to mitigating circumstances put forward by the defence such as " they have had a difficult childhood,  come from a broken home, problems with alcohol/ drugs , their client is full of remorse etc etc "   you begin to wonder if there is a text book somewhere that contains the wording required to fool the Courts.     :rage:     


Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #692 on: March 09, 2014, 08:03:29 am »
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It seems this Human Rights business has gone too far to the extreme and I wonder sometimes if some of these defence lawyers are more interested in getting their clients off on technicalities rather than seeing that justice has been served.

It's certainly true that the defence's duty is to secure a verdict favourable to their client by whatever legal means. But 'technicalities' are there for good reason. You only have to look at the behaviour of the Met Police over many years to see that.

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If you listen to mitigating circumstances put forward by the defence such as " they have had a difficult childhood,  come from a broken home, problems with alcohol/ drugs , their client is full of remorse etc etc "   you begin to wonder if there is a text book somewhere that contains the wording required to fool the Courts.

Indeed, and I'm pretty certain more than a few defence lawyers almost choke when presenting those arguments. But we live in a society which values the rights of all people, not just some, and it's a crucial plank of our justice system that everyone has the same right to a fair trial. If we decide to withdraw these rights from those we don't like, then a lot of questions would need answering, the most important being 'On what criteria would you decide someone is to be denied basic rights?' .

Let's look at a hypothetical situation. A man found to be drunk is bleeding profusely and lashes out at the A & E staff trying to help him. He injures one, who breaks her wrist in the mêlée. According to some he ought to be either left to bleed out or incarcerated. So here's the question: is he entitled to a defence attorney and should mitigating factors be taken into account?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

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Offline Yorkie

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #693 on: March 09, 2014, 09:56:45 am »
Notwithstanding the above comments, here is an interesting point.

Factual versus Legal Guilt
The key is the difference between factual guilt (what the defendant actually did) and legal guilt (what a prosecutor can prove). A good criminal defense lawyer asks not, “Did my client do it?” but rather, “Can the government prove that my client did it?” No matter what the defendant has done, he is not legally guilty until a prosecutor offers enough evidence to persuade a judge or jury to convict.
However, the defense lawyer may not lie to the judge or jury by specifically stating that the defendant did not do something the lawyer knows the defendant did do. Rather, the lawyer’s trial tactics and arguments must focus on the government’s failure to prove all the elements of the crime.
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Offline Hugo

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #694 on: March 09, 2014, 05:18:42 pm »
Ian,  you are correct of course in everything you have said and I agree that everyone should be treated equally irrespective of any allegations against them.   I'm afraid though that justice is not always delivered because of all the obstacles that are put in the way.


Yorkie, that's a very interesting statement and makes one understand part of the process of the Court proceedings and the difficulties the prosecutors have to overcome.   I wonder what would be the position if the defendant admitted the charge to the his lawyer but the defence lawyer did not admit this to the Court.
The defence lawyer would not have committed perjury as they hadn't actually lied to the Court, but could they be charged with " perverting the course of justice" if this later came out in Police enquiries?

Offline Yorkie

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #695 on: March 09, 2014, 08:46:11 pm »
Prior to hanging being abolished, every time there was a murder, the Police would get any number of confessions  as some folk saw this as a subtle way to commit suicide.  Some people will still confess to crimes they did not commit just to get back to their nice warm prison and three meals a day, it is a way of life for them.

However, a Lawyer has to do the best he can for his client, whether they are guilty or not, and I suspect that most Lawyers have a good idea whether their client did it or didn't do it.  There are plenty of papers on this particular subject and much too much to start quoting here.  Have a Google through the legal subjects and enjoy a good read.
 :D    ZXZ
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Offline Hugo

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #696 on: March 09, 2014, 11:09:14 pm »
Thanks for that info Yorkie but I think that I'll pass on that and leave it to the exports.    As you say many lawyers will have a good idea whether their client is guilty or not but they still have a job to do.
I suppose the Magistrates or Judges do form an opinion as well but have to be seen to be impartial and keep a dignified manner despite what may have been said by the defendant.
When I was in Court one day, I remember a case of the Water Board against a defendant from Liverpool who was accused of poaching a fish  from the Ogwen River.
The mitigating defence was read out in Court and it was that  " it was a very hot day when he was travelling home from Anglesey and he decided to paddle in the river to keep cool but unfortunately he fell in the water and somehow a Trout found it's way into his jacket pocket.    It wasn't intentional as he ( the defendant) didn't know the difference between a Trout and a Shark"
At that point of the proceedings everyone including the Magistrates just burst out laughing and when the laughing subsided the defendant was found guilty and an appropriate fine imposed on him.

Offline Yorkie

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #697 on: March 10, 2014, 07:24:31 am »
During my short time in the Met Police, when off duty, I spent many an enjoyable afternoon, or even a whole day, in the Old Bailey, watching cases of all sorts.  Some of the most interesting were the high profile divorce proceedings, as there was no simple divorces in those days.
 ZXZ
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Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #698 on: March 10, 2014, 08:43:14 am »
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Ian,  you are correct of course in everything you have said and I agree that everyone should be treated equally irrespective of any allegations against them.   I'm afraid though that justice is not always delivered because of all the obstacles that are put in the way.

It's true that some will escape justice: you only have to look at the likes of Lord Lucan, Robert Maxwell and Ernest Sunders, to name but three. But I wonder if you know that we lock up a greater percentage of our population than any other European country?

The evidence that sending people to prison does no good is overwhelming, yet because of egregious comics like the DFM there is always pressure to send more away. Now, I'm not advocating that no one should be jailed. There are those who need to be for the safety of society, but what I am saying is that a lot end up in prison without having committed a crime of any sort.  Recently, for instance, a girl who alleged she'd been raped was only found out when CCTV images showing her alleged rapist more than 100 miles away were unearthed by the defence. That's one we know about, but what about the many we don't?

I'm not saying justice is perfect; far from it, but until we have foolproof methods of determining guilt then I would rather retain the system we have. The alternatives are too nasty to contemplate.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #699 on: March 10, 2014, 06:41:48 pm »
I'm not saying justice is perfect; far from it, but until we have foolproof methods of determining guilt then I would rather retain the system we have. The alternatives are too nasty to contemplate.

Ian,  I know that you don't agree with it but I'll say it again that at some time in the future the lie detector test may come into the system even if it is only as circumstantial evidence.
I'm guilty of watching Jeremy Kyle sometimes and people on the show vehemently protest their innocence if they fail the test but then later on admit that the test was in fact correct.
OK it is not 100 per cent accurate but why are so many people who have no way of proving their innocence seemingly reluctant to take it.
For instance Amanda Knox prior to the latest trial was giving interviews and saying that she was innocent and would do a lie detector test to prove her innocence.     However now that she has been found guilty of the murder she has gone quiet on the matter of taking this test which she previously claimed would prove her innocence.

Offline Yorkie

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #700 on: March 10, 2014, 08:01:42 pm »
I can think of one particular case that could well benefit from the use of a lie detector, but I suppose we will have to await the outcome from the 30 odd Met Police sunning themselves in Portugal!

 ZXZ
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Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #701 on: March 10, 2014, 08:02:01 pm »
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OK it is not 100 per cent accurate but why are so many people who have no way of proving their innocence seemingly reluctant to take it.

The polygraph only measures certain physiological parameters, conductivity, blood pressure, etc., and thus are only really capable of measuring when a person becomes anxious. In use, subjects are told the polygraph is capable of detecting lies, which it simply isn't. However, imagine someone being accused of a heinous act by an intimidating interrogator.  They're highly likely to be anxious in that situation, anyway, and can often give false positives when being interviewed. That's the case with innocent people.

In the case of criminals, however, do you not seriously believe they won't have found out how to fool the machine? It's extraordinarily simple to do.  So we have a situation where the innocent might appear guilty through stress and fear while the guilty are capable of fooling the test.

The polygraph will not work effectively on psychopaths or sociopaths, either, or with many cases of Asperger syndrome or those with Autism.  So to summarise, it will show that innocent people telling the truth might be lying, but won't work at all with serious criminals.

Finally, the scientific community in general has no confidence in it, while the  National Research Council has found no evidence of effectiveness. The utility among sex offenders is also poor with insufficient evidence to support accuracy or improved outcomes in this population.

In 2001 William Iacono, Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience concluded that

 
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  Although the CQT [Control Question Test] may be useful as an investigative aid and tool to induce confessions, it does not pass muster as a scientifically credible test. CQT theory is based on naive, implausible assumptions indicating (a) that it is biased against innocent individuals and (b) that it can be beaten simply by artificially augmenting responses to control questions.

Summarizing the consensus in psychological research, professor David W. Martin, PhD, from North Carolina State University, states that

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people have tried to use the polygraph for measuring human emotions, but there is simply no royal road to (measuring) human emotions. Therefore, since one cannot reliably measure human emotions (especially when one has an interest in hiding his/her emotions), the idea of valid detection of truth or falsehood through measuring respiratory rate, blood volume, pulse rate and galvanic skin response is a mere pretense. Psychologists cannot ascertain what emotions one has, with or without the use of polygraph.

I could go on, Hugo, but there are numerous studies that have been done and are available on the internet which prove that there is no reliability with the Polygraph and - far from it 'not being 100% accurate' - your grandmother's left toe would have a better chance of ascertaining the credibility of a suspect.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #702 on: March 10, 2014, 08:07:29 pm »
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I'm guilty of watching Jeremy Kyle sometimes

Now, if ever there was a crime... :D :D :D
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #703 on: March 10, 2014, 10:27:28 pm »
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I'm guilty of watching Jeremy Kyle sometimes

Now, if ever there was a crime... :D :D :D

Guilty  your Honour!       :-[    :'(

Offline Fester

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Re: Crime and criminals
« Reply #704 on: March 14, 2014, 09:16:52 pm »
I am also guilty, your honour, of watching the odd episode of JK.

It has a curiosity for me, something akin to being at a Victorian freakshow,

Sadly though, I now realise that society has changed so much, that JK show participants are starting to become the majority of the population!

Tune in, you might learn something!

Fester...
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