Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: Kaye on August 05, 2015, 11:47:15 pm
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Hello-I am trying to find some missing pieces in my family history
Can anyone tell me anything of the history of 9,Wyddfydd Road,Great Orme? Was it a residential property,or a place of employment and if so who lived
there.I am particularly interested in the year 1927 when it was given as the place of birth on a certificate I have.
My ancestors names were Williams and probably Edwards so I am trying to verify facts and proceed with caution before going
to the next step.
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Kaye,
The Town Directories are a useful starting point, there are ones either side of 1927.
In 1925, the householder was Edgar B Evans, an upholsterer. He is also noted as a juror which meant he was the ratepayer and may be the property owner rather than a tenant. (Same details are in the 1922 directory).
In 1929, the householder is Thomas Evans, a labourer.
By 1939, the head of household was Ephraim Hall.
Hope this is of help.
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This address is a terrace of residential two storey properties but what is unusual about them is that they are actually flats. If I'm not mistaken the bottom flats are called Prospect Terrace.
There are a number of Street Indexes in the Conwy Archives but non for 1927 unfortunately.
If you are looking for anything in particular the local newspapers Llandudno Advertiser and the North Wales Weekly News may have some info in them
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Thankyou very much Cambrian and Hugo. All information is potentially useful.
I only have evidence of the address for the birth in 1927 so it may be a place of work, a temporary or unexpected address for
the birth only.I wonder if there would have been a local midwife at that time?
However I shall explore further to see if there is a link between Williams/Evans and I shall try the local papers online as you
suggest.
Sadly the little girl died at the Isolation Hospital of diphtheria in April 1930 .I think it is likely to be Maesdu Road.How far would that be from the G.Orme?
What would be the most likely place for a burial and would any restrictions apply because of the infection?I don't know of any
particular religious denomination? It would be wonderful to find it if it exists.
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Possibly the expectant mother went to a relative for the confinement - could her mother have lived there ?
The usual place of burial at that time would have the Council cemetery on the Great Orme's Head. The Council's burials and cremations records for municipal cemeteries are held at the Crematorium, Bron y Nant, Mochdre, Colwyn Bay.
The Isolation Hospital was what became the Medical Annexe in Maesdu Road as Hugo mentioned. It is at the junction of Maesdu Road and Maesdu Place.
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Without knowing the circumstances it's difficult to speculate, but if the mother was unmarried she may have gone to a relative for the birth. However there are a number of avenues that could be followed up such as:-
Do you know the name and date of birth of the child?
Then there is the possibility that the child was baptised in Llandudno
Maesdu Road is about a mile or two from Wyddfyd Road but the child would normally be buried on the Great Orme at St Tudno's Cemetery.
The Burial Index for St Tudno's is at the Conwy Archives and is easy to trace if the child's grave had a headstone
There is also the possibility of an article in the local papers but I don't know if they are online for those years but the original papers can be seen in the Archives
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I've just had a nice conversation with an old friend and neighbour who advised me that his relatives also lived at No 9 but in 1939.
He does know that the properties were not privately owned but were rented from a company called Llandudno Buildings and Workmens Dwellings and asked me to convey this info to the forum
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I've just had a nice conversation with an old friend and neighbour who advised me that his relatives also lived at No 9 but in 1939.
He does know that the properties were not privately owned but were rented from a company called Llandudno Buildings and Workmens Dwellings and asked me to convey this info to the forum
A company that is still in business today, worth over £1.6m:
http://companycheck.co.uk/company/00022672 (http://companycheck.co.uk/company/00022672)
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Thanks for those replies, local knowledge is so valuable.
The papers online are too early but I did find a snippet that mentioned Prospect Tce being parallel to Wyddfyd Road,
and also a notice of Pte Edgar Evans of Wyddfyd Road, member of St.Paul's choir and Llandudno Operatic Society
who was sadly killed in France in 1917. The articles are so interesting it's easy to get sidetracked.
I have found two possible marriages to investigate between Williams/Evans which could mean, therefore that 9,Wyddfyd Rd
was a sister or brother's home. I shall have to revisit the censuses at the library next week before ordering certificates.
Knowing the company is useful in case rent books still survive .Please thank your neighbour,Hugo.
I have not found a baptism record online .
Family talk had always assumed that there would be a grave on the Great Orme
somewhere.
The other address I have is 3,Cyll Terrace in 1930 on the death certificate.This correlates with an address on Williams/Hobson
marriage in 1922 which would be a brother.He was a bricklayer as was his father and bride's father.This was at St.George's
church(parish Register online).
Would Cyll Terrace be called Hill Terrace locally as I have seen this mentioned in articles?
I shall carry out as many of the suggestions as I can.I cannot visit Llandudno for a day trip but certainly will make it a longer
visit at some point when I have done as much homework as I can.I'll keep you posted!
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Hi Kaye cyll terrace is further up the tram track than wydfydd , years ago families in prospect terrace /wydfydd road used to take other families in , Hobsons lived in rofft place across the way from wydfydd they were builders /bricklayers ,good luck on your search .
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Hi Kaye cyll terrace is further up the tram track than wydfydd , years ago families in prospect terrace /wydfydd road used to take other families in , Hobsons lived in rofft place across the way from wydfydd they were builders /bricklayers ,good luck on your search .
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A lot of things are not online but are available at the Conwy Archives in Lloyd Street Llandudno. Wyddfyd Road is actually a terrace of flats although they look like houses from the street view. Prospect Terrace are the flats directly under those in Wyddfyd Road.
Just so you are aware the Baptism Records, newspapers, burial records, Register of electors and Wedding Banns are available at the Archives.
Do you have a name for the child that died or are you looking for some thing in particular?
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Thankyou Norman-The address I have for Margaret Hobson and her father John is 1,Cyll Tce so my relative seems to have
married the girl next door! I'll see if I can find a link to the address you've given.
Hugo-re Wyddfyd Rd- I have missing pieces between1911 and 1927 and want to make sure in view of the common surname
that I link the correct family.In the absence of 1921 census I think its worth trying to verify these years by cross referencing.
Patricia Annie Williams was born 15th June 1927 and died 14th April 1930.She is really the link to the past as her mother
would have been my grandmother.I think she may have left Llandudno soon after this death and possibly lost contact.She died when my mother was young but her mentions of the Great Orme left a lasting memory for my mother .
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Kaye, the Conwy Archives is open to the public Mondays to Thursdays so I'll try and pop over there next week and see what I can find out about Patricia Annie Williams,
Sometimes obituary notices etc give a bit of info on the family but I'll post it on here after I've gone there.
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Kaye - just to help whilst other information comes to light.
In the 1929 Directory, 1 Cyll Terrace was occupied by John Hobson, a mason. 3 Cyll Terrace was occupied by John Williams, a plasterer.
The Hobsons are quite a large family in Llandudno. For example: on the Great Orme in 1927 there were:
William Hobson, labourer, Wyddfyd Farm
Anthony Hobson, labourer, 4 Wyddfyd Terrace
Mrs Ellen Hobson, 19 St Beuno's Road
John Hobson, 2 Belle View Terrace
John Hobson, Ivy Mount, Tyn y Coed Road
Joseph Hobson, mason, 2 Tan y Craig
All of these are within a short distance of each other.
If you look the Genealogy section of this site and go to page 4, the second item down is "The Llandudno Hobson Family". You may find a lot more information there - including some from Hugo.
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Hugo ,If you are able to do that look-up at the archive when you are next there it would be great .
Regarding the building Company I have not found anything historical online or by looking at the online Conwy
archive under the Company's name or under rent books but I might just make an enquiry at the present office.
Thankyou Cambrian for that information.John Williams of 3,Cyll Terrace maybe my great grandfather,or great uncle .In 1922 both Johns
were bricklayers. This is the first reference I have seen to plastering ,although on the censuses which I thought could be
possibles John Williams Senior(Alexandra Road) was a bricklayer in 1911, and possibly a builder in 1901.He may earlier have
been a master mason.Anyway all in related trades so I may be on the right track .It also seems a connection with the in-
laws the Hobsons.Thanks very much again.
I have had a good look at The Hobson site,too.
One of the witnesses at the marriage of John Williams and Margaret Hobson is a Hugh Hobson.
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Kaye, I went to the Conwy Archives and this is what I found:-
I looked at the Burial Index for St Tudno's Church but there is no grave with a headstone recorded for Patricia Annie Williams, the Archivist looked at the records on their computer and again could find no record for her either. This is not to say that she is not buried there, just that the records may not be up to date.
I then looked at the 1930 Llandudno Advertisers but there is no trace of an obituary notice in the paper.
In the 1927 Baptism record at No 576 is a record for her ( see photo )
Patricia Annie Williams was Baptised on 31st July 1927. Her mother was Phyllis Williams but there was no mention of the father of the child. The address was given as 3 Cyll Terrace Great Orme.
I assume from this that the child was illegitimate
The Burial Register showed that Patricia Annie Williams died at the Isolation Hospital Llandudno ( I checked and it was the one in Maesdu Road, see photo taken today) See photo of the Burial Register which I think that you have.
I have enclosed a photo of 9 Wyddfyd Road ( No 9 has a large dormer roof with the two windows) and will take a photo of Cyll Terrace as soon as I can.
The 1929 Street Index shows a John Williams, plasterer as the bread winner and he must have been the father or brother of Phyllis.
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Hugo,I am so thrilled at what you have discovered.
All I knew a few months ago was Patricia's first name, approximate age, death from diphtheria , a connection with the
Great Orme and the decade she lived in.By studying records in North Wales BMD I established the years of birth and death
and middle name.Then through applying for those certificates the cause of death was indeed diphtheria and the addresses
linked her to the Great Orme .
She was baptised about 6 weeks after being born in Wyddfyd Road and the fact that Phyllis is at 3,Cyll Tce then and at the
time of the burial indicates to me this was likely her primary residence and Wyddfyd road the place of birth only.
I have not yet verified any connection.
Were you able to confirm that it was Maesdu Rd that was the Isolation Hospital,Llandudno through records at the archives?
It is interesting that the priest seems to have written Holyhead? by mistake first.
Patricia died on 14th April 1930 so was buried just 2 days later.That's far quicker than by today's standards .I suppose it's
possible Phyllis left the area after the death without arranging a headstone but you seem to indicate there may be outstanding
information yet to be collated and I don't know when she left.
It is very pleasing to have these records of Patricia's short life.
The photos of Wyddfyd road are very good,thankyou.I shall keep investigating the connection.
Phyllis had spoken to my mother of brothers John and Roland and a sister Gladys( who had died). This link with 3, Cyll Terrace
in 1927 isn't too big a leap perhaps to a record I found online for a 1922 parish register record of marriage - John O T
Williams ,bricklayer ,of3 Cyll Terrace to Margaret Hobson of 1,Cyll Terrace (at St.George's.)However it could be a
coincidence and I will continue to look for missing pieces .
I look forward to seeing Cyll Tce.It's very difficult to picture all this when I am not familiar with the area.I can't wait to come
and see it all for myself! Thanks so much Hugo for your work.
(Maybe next time I post I will change it to Wyddfyd Rd/Cyll Rd to move with the latest info.I also think it would be interesting
to explore the hazards of illness pre-vaccination and NHS and may post a new thread on those lines)
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Thanks Kaye, I'll try and post a photo of Cyll Terrace tomorrow if I go to Llandudno.
The Street indexes are good as they list the people in alphabetical order so you can find out where the people lived, the only problem is that they only list one person at that address and that person is quite often the breadwinner. It also lists businesses, hospitals etc and that is why I know that the Isolation Hospital was in Maesdu Road
The Burial Indexes list the graves with headstones but the computer records are not up to date as info is awaited from the Church. However if there is no headstone, I have been advised that they do not know who is buried in the unmarked graves!
The 1911 Census should give the details of Phyllis' parents and siblings. Have you found their details?
Did Phyllis get married. If she did do you know where and her married name?
Records such as Wedding Banns, Register of Electors are available at the Archives too in case you need to know any particular thing.
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1911
The family that has most connections seems be at 46,Alexandra Road,Llandudno
Head-John Williams bricklayer 48 yrs born Llandudno,able to speak Welsh and English.
Wife-Annie Williams Married 19years 6 children born,5 still living ,1 dead,birthplace born Llandudno Junction
4 children are with them that evening
John Owen Tudno, 12 at school, speaks both
Caradog Roland 10 speaks both
both sons
and 2 daughters,Phyllis 16,domestic servant
and Adelaide Nellie 6,also speaking both languages.
All children born in Llandudno
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Sorry,ran out of room.
1901 1have found a family with similar details at Winllan Avenue.
Head John 39yrs builder,born Llandudno,speaking both
Wife Ann 36yrs born Denbigh Glan Conway
Gladys,8 born Llandudno speaks English
JOT 2
Caradog 11months
I have not found Phyllis for 1901and I don't know if Gladys had died by 1911 or left home to work.That leaves another child whose name I don't know.
I have a baptism ref. for a Caradog Roland 1900 parents John, a mason and Annie of Northern Grove,Mael Gwyn Tce,Llandudno
I have a possible birth for Phyllis 1894 parents ,John a master stonemason and Ann ,formerly Edwards at 3,Llwynon Gardens,
Llandudno.
I can't be totally sure these are the same family yet as I have seen other John Williams who are Masons.
Would you be able to tell me anything about Denbigh Glan Conway,pob for Ann given in1901?
Does this relate to Llandudno Junction given as pob in 1911?
Thanks for your help
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It's very difficult finding families when they have a common name like John Williams and you need to be absolutely certain that you have the right family before you make requests for those expensive certificates.
Leave it with me and I'll have a think about it.
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I went up the Great Orme today and took these photos for you. No 1 Cyll Terrace is the end house on the left with No 3 being the next door but one. The Terrace is very near the top of the Orme and if you have a look at the photo I took on my walk yesterday, there is a white building near the top of the Orme and the terrace is just above that but is out of sight.
The little Church of St Beuno (now a private residence ) is probably where Patricia's Baptism took place and is about 200 yards from Cyll Terrace.
The Church of St Tudno is further away and here's a photo of part of the graveyard where Patricia would have been buried.
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I went to the Conwy Archive to look at the 1911 Wales Census for Phyllis. The first entry that appeared on the list was the one that you have recorded above and I had a good look at it.
I have no evidence whatsoever but I've got doubts that this person is your Phyllis as she would have been about 33 when she had Patricia and I pressume that she went on to have other children later, your mother for example.
As I could not find a Phyllis that matched up on the 1911 Census I checked the Baptism records for Llandudno as Phyllis may have been born after April 1911 and wouldn't appear on that Census. That could have made her about 16 when she gave birth to Patricia but unfortunately I could not see an entry for her in the Baptism Register so that didn't prove anything.
Do you know when Phyllis was born? The headstone on her grave may have that info if you're not sure
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Just an add on to your posting yesterday about Glan Conwy and Llandudno Junction, they are two different places but are only a mile or two apart.
In the Census records for 1911 and prior Llandudno Junction was in the county of Caernarfonshire.
Glan Conwy ( full name Llansanffraid Glan Conwy) was in the county of Denbighshire
However they both fell into the Registration District of Conwy.
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Kaye, I don't subscribe to any of the Ancestry or Find my past searches as I always go to the Library or Archives where it is free.
I was just trying out the various sites on Google and came across a number of Phyllis Williams that were born in Llandudno.
In the 1911 Census there was a Phyllis May Williams who was aged two, another was Phyllis Williams who was aged three. I might be mistaken but they appear to be the most likely to be your Phyllis as they would both have been about 19 or 20 when Patricia was born
Unfortunately I wasn't able to view their records but I can in the Archives.
I don't know how I missed them when I searched in the Archives for the 1911 Census but I can look at them next week hopefully.
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Hi Kaye, I've just had a nice chat with a cousin of mine about your search and he's advised me that he knows someone from the Williams side of the family who remembers details of Phyllis' family.
This person is also a forum member and my cousin has asked him to make contact with you via the forum. By coincidence I do know him personally, having grown up with him when we were teenagers.
He's a really nice guy and I hope that he does contact you on the forum and I'm sure that he'll be an invaluable help with your family search.
££$
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Hugo-Thankyou so much for all the wonderful photos and your thoughts and help.
I think I may have to be patient and wait until the release of the 1921 survey before going further back as I agree one must be careful not to leap to conclusions without good verification. From the age given on Phyllis' death certificate,presuming it was accurate ,the age on the censuses would be about right.There may be reasons why she had a family later in life.(The first World War must also have affected this generation )
However I have more knowledge of Patricia Annie than I did before joining the forum and if possible shall visit before Christmas.It is good to know about her baptism and that she was buried on the Great Orme as my mother believed even if there is no headstone.It would be wonderful if the person who knows the details would be in touch.I gather there is a personal message service on here which may be useful as I realise that some issues may be sensitive.
Thanks again.Kaye
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Kaye: I've edited your post to remove the gaps, possibly caused by the device on which you're typing. A tip: you can do this yourself if you click on "Preview" before you post. It will then display your post exactly as it will appear in here, and you can make changes in the 'Post' box before pressing "Post".
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Hi Kaye, I don't think that you have to wait until the 1921 Census comes out as I can tell you that you've found the correct family with your 1901 find at Winllan Avenue Llandudno.
I'll leave it up to the Williams family member to contact you on here and then you can sort things out with him by PM or whatever.
When I spoke to my cousin Norman yesterday I had to laugh when he told me something. I thought that Phyllis at the age of 33 may have been to old to be your relative but I couldn't have been so wrong.
The person who I hope will soon make contact with you is a Williams and one of 9 children and his mother had him when she was 49 :o
It must be in the Williams genes! ;D
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Oh-That's great news. I wait with great hopes of hearing more.Incidentally,I had my children into my late 30's,although I just
had three!
In trying to find more information about St.Beuno's ,I came across a good summary of the life of Francis Parry Watkin-Davies,the Rector who baptised Patricia .
Thank you Ian for pointing that out.I will leave out the gaps .Hope that's better.
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I remember my brother's daughters getting baptised in St Beuno's and that it was a nice little Church but that was over 30 years ago. I don't know when it closed as a Church and came into private ownership though.
To get to Cyll Terrace by car you have to drive down St Beuno's Road then past the Church. The Terrace is set back from the road and is on its own. You can't see it on Google Street view but you can if you go to the satellite view.
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Hi Kaye, just to let you know that I've sent a PM to you and will send another one as soon as I know more.
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Many thanks Hugo for the message.It would be very good to have some missing pieces if possible , reasons for information being a) ideally to locate Patricia's grave b)to trace Phyllis'family back to my GGP and beyond,and c)to know about Phyllis' life . I have been going over the censuses again
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Oh dear.That went of its own accord and before I'd finished.
I have been revisiting the 1901 census:Where is Phyllis? At 6 years old she could be at her grandparents' ,whose names I don't
know,but her maternal grandparents could be Edwards and potentially still at Glan Conway.Alternatively if not with relatives or
friends she could be in hospital.Alternatively as you say she may not be born just yet.
I have found three Phyllis Williams close together born in Llandudno:1893,1894 and 1901(July,Aug,Sep) and therefore after the night of the census.The information for 1894 is not from an original certificate,but has parents as John and Anne nee Edwards and John as master stone mason at Lwynon Gardens and I found John in Slater's Directory 1895 as such with this address.
Gladys is difficult to trace as there are quite a few.
The boys however have quite unique names.From trawling free BMD and NW bmd.John Owen Tudno was born 1898(a,m,j)
and Caradog at 11 months in 1901 can only be Caradog Roland born afterthe census taken on March 31st in 1901(a,m,j)and links strongly with 1911 at Alexandra Road.My mother was only given names John and Roland.However she could not remember having been told of Adelaide Nellie.
I hope your contact may be able to help with these matters.I shall go to the library next week and see if I can find Phyllis in 1901.
If she was on holiday I shan't have much luck!
I saw that Llandudno had a big parade today .I hope the weather was fine for it.
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If you can just hang on for a few more days there may be no need for any more searching and I'll keep you informed by a PM.
Because Patricia was living on the Great Orme it would be assumed that she would be buried at St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme but the Archivist could not trace her grave on the data base which was strange but as I mentioned previously the records from the Church are not up to date. However even if they were and her grave did not have a headstone the Church records don't tell you where her grave plot would be.
There were two burial grounds for Llandudno, St Hilary's at Llanrhos being the other but I never checked that Burial Index. I will when I next go to the Archives but don't hold up much hope of finding it there
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Hi Kaye, I popped over to the Archives today but could find no trace of Phyllis' siblings or Patricia in the Burial Indexes for St Hilary's at Llanrhos and St Tudno's on the Great Orme. I won't to any further searches now but will wait for contact to be made from the Williams family member.
By the way Adalaide Nellie could have been called Adalaide Ellen. Nellie was actual a nickname for Ellen, a very popular name in its day, in fact my Nain (Grandmother) was also called Ellen but everyone called her Nell.
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Thank you very much Hugo for looking again. Hopefully some new information will come in soon.
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Hugo,
Just a thought. I am not sure what records the archives have regarding burials on the Great Orme but as far as I know the records for the much larger municipal cemetery (as opposed to the adjacent St Tudno's church yard)are held by Conwy CBC at the Crematorium in Bron y Nant. Do archives have access to these as well as the church ones?
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Thank you, Cambrian.I have been able to eliminate this,now.
It must be a churchyard but likely unmarked.
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I did phone the Crem today and spoke to a lady who advised me that another lady had been asking the same question yesterday. I take it that it was you Kaye following that up.
I'll e-mail my cousin and see how things are going with the local Williams person
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No, there was no child of that name buried there,but it was worth trying as Cambrian had mentioned it as a possibility early on.
I think as you say we may know more if some one who remembers the family can shed some light on it.I do hope so,but
for now we may have to accept the grave is not traceable.
I think I have found a possible marriage record for John and Ann but don't want to send off for it just yet until I'm more certain they are my "Williams".
I hope to get to the library tomorrow to go over the censuses again.
(Hugo-I can receive your messages,thank you but I can't reply unfortunately ,the reason explained by Ian in "Suggestions" thread.)
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Cambrian, I was in the Archives yesterday and found the Baptism record of Caradog Roland Williams in 1900. The address was as Kaye previously stated "Northern Grove Maelgwyn Terrace.
Do you have any idea where this was? In the 1901 Census the family was living in Winllan Avenue and I was wondering if Maelgwyn Terrace was just one of the many terraces in that street and just lost its name when the street was named or renumbered.
Norman have you been able to contact the Williams family member :) Kaye has told me that she is hoping to come to the town next month and any info she gets now will help her in her family research
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I put into Google "Northern Grove Llandudno" and came across an article in the Great Orme Exploration Society which was interesting but doesn't confirm that this is the Northern Grove we are looking for.
Very briefly it stated that "Henry Jones Northern Grove 1898" At one time one of the houses in Bodhyfryd Road was called Northern Grove and was occupied by a Mr Henry Jones.
This may or may not be the address of the 1900 Baptism of Roland Williams but perhaps Cambrian may have the answer.
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Hugo
I think Maelgwyn Terrace could be the northern side of what is now Maelgwyn Road. When the southern side (Oval) was built, they probably changed the name to "Road".
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The free site Welsh Newspapers Online has various titles pre-1910 .
I have found an advert for a property auction to be held at the Marine Hotel,Llandudno on 24th June 1904 in the "Welsh Coast Pioneer"
It names Myrtle Grove,Northern Grove, and three others as being Maelgwyn Terrace,Winllan Avenue-rental( £20 a year!)
I also found a reference in The Llandudno Advertiser 24th April 1903 page 7 about the "New Cemetery"."It has been decided to accept the tender of Messrs J and J Williams of Northern Grove,
Maelgwyn Terrace....
I suppose these house names like surnames are not unique and its a question of disentangling the right Williams'with the right addresses,
In the 1901 census (RG13/5289)the Williams family(Head John Williams-builder) is listed at Winllan Avenue( 179) and no house name but I now
notice that at the top of the page is Vaughan Street,Bodywily?? and under 180 ,at the bottom of the
page Vienna House.Does that make any sense at all?
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That's a really good find Kaye, so we know that they lived in a terraced property in Winllan Avenue. That has narrowed it down and I'm guessing now but the street may have been numbered at some point between the Baptism of Roland in 1900 and the 1901 Census.
There may be a way of finding out exactly where the properties are in the street but does the 1901 Census have a number for the house in Winllan Avenue?
If it doesn't, then the address can be traced from the Rent Books which are in the Archives. I'm not sure how far back they go but I've traced my own Grandparents in the 1906 Rates book
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notice that at the top of the page is Vaughan Street,Bodywily?? and under 180 ,at the bottom of the
page Vienna House.Does that make any sense at all?
I'm afraid that it doesn't to me Kaye. We have a Vaughan Street in Llandudno but I can't think what Bodywily?? is. Vienna House doesn't mean anything to me either.
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I've just found that article in the paper and it seems that there were five properties in that terrace namely Penyrorsedd, Pendros, Iona Villa, Myrtle Grove and Northern Grove.
Now Winllan Avenue has been renumbered and probably only the numbers appear on records such as the Register of Electors, Zoopla etc but there is still a good chance that at least one of the five houses has retained their original name .and it is displayed on the property
If that is the case then the original Maelgwyn Terrace will be found, failing that it's back to the Rates book for confirmation
I didn't look for Vienna House or Vaughan street as it had no apparent link to your family.
Thanks for the e-mail I've just opened. As soon as I can I'll take a photo of the property once I've found it in Winllan Avenue.
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I just have page 41 of the census printed and can now see that the first family on it must continue from the previous page .They are at Bodgwilyne(?),Vaughan Street.
There are then 4 addresses at Winllan Avenue and a 5th called Vienna House.( The Head of House is an Austrian subject which is probably why!)
In the first column which I think says No.of Schedule the Winllan Avenue addresses have numbers176-179.Vienna House is 180.Perhaps these are there actual numbers.
179 is by John and Ann Williams and 3 children,Gladys,John O T. and Caradog.
I shall have to look at the next couple of pages to see if the numbering continues next visit to my library.
If rent books are available at the archives they could be a very useful source,thanks
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Thanks Hugo,fingers crossed they are still there!
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Kaye, I think those numbers are how the properties are listed in the Census records and not the actual number of each house in the street. It's a long street but providing at least one name remains on a property then I should be able to find where the terrace is.
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Yes,numbers are supposed to be in the second column.
In 1898 a John Williams is at 3,Maelgwyn Tce,(It then says Henllan Avenue but I suspect this is an error and it should be Winllan Ave.John Williams of 3,Llwynon Gns is also mentioned.They are both master masons so could be the"Messrs J andJ Williams of "Northern Grove"Maelgwyn Tce who win the tender for the new cemetery walls and entrances in 1903.I have a reference to "Northern Shore"
Winllan Avenue in 1902 for John Williams but again it could be an error in transcript Grove/Shore.
If number 3 was Northern Grove it would be very helpful in verifying matters!
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I think that No3 Maelgwyn Terrace would have had another number when the terrace was incorporated into the renumbering of Winllan Avenue.
Now that it has been confirmed where the terrace is it may be possible to trace it via shanks' pony. I'll have a look on a dry day though and failing that the Rates book at the Archives will help. The rate books not only show the ratepayer but they also show the owner of the property.
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I had a walk along Winllan Avenue today and the very first house I came to was Northern Grove at No 28 Winllan Avenue. It's the end terrace with the mobility scooter parked outside.
There was no other house in the street that had retained its old name from Maelgwyn Terrace. I did have a good look around the street and saw every house there but there was no name plate to identify the original Maelgwyn Terrace but I suspect that the house names we are aware of are next door neighbours.
The 4th photo is of 46 Alexandra Road (house with white door) and the 5th is of part of that road
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Thank you very much Hugo for locating Northern Grove.How lucky that the present owners have retained the name!Those houses must be at least 120 years old .This helps with my research to know that Maelgwyn Terrace is in Winllan Avenue where the family was in 1901 and not 2 separate addresses.
It's good to see Alexandra Road is still there too which is the address I have for the family in 1911.
Another piece in the puzzle,thanks!
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Kaye, I've found the Grave for Annie Mary Williams at St Tudno's Church in Llandudno. It's at Section G No 284 and also buried with her are her mother Annie and her father John
There is a long inscription in Welsh on the Headstone and I'll translate that as soon as I have time but the details about the 3 are as shown below:-
Annie Mary Williams died 31st July 1897 aged 11 months
Annie " died 26th December 1924 aged 59
John " died 20th July 1925 aged 63
The words on the headstone are not very clear but I have copied them from the Burial Index in the Archives and will translate them as soon as I can. The grave is in the old part of the Cemetery and near the Church and I've enclosed some photos for you. The headstone on the left as you look at the Church is the Williams one
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This is a wonderful find,Hugo.I can see how weathered the stone is and difficult to read but I can just about make out Lwyn Onn Gardens,where we know they lived in 1897.The original burial would have been in 1897 when there must have still been space and perhaps John and Annie decided then to join her, as by the time of their death in 1924/5 it seems from info on the forum that the cemetery was the more usual place of burial.From your photo it looks like a prime spot.
That is valuable information about John and Annie's dates of death who died within 6 months of each other.Verification of them as Phyllis'parents is closer as we are narrowing the gap of "missing years" .Hopefully their address at this time will connect with Phyllis.They died before Patricia Annie was born in 1927.
This also means that John was born about 1861/1862 and Annie 1865.
Thank you for all the legwork this must have involved,Hugo in trips to the archives and up the Orme.I am also grateful to whoever recorded the inscriptions and that you can translate the Welsh for me!
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Thanks Kaye, I've just had a phone call from my cousin Norman and he had some exciting news from the current Williams family. I've sent you a private e-mail explaining the present position.
It's very promising news and I'm sure that it's what you've been searching for. $good$
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Thanks Norman for contacting the present day Williams family member, it's great news to hear that his father was born in Northern Grove as he'll be able to put the pieces of the jigsaw together for Kaye. $good$
I've not heard from him yet so I can't put Kaye it touch until I do hear.
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I'm pleased to say that Kaye and Geoff, the present day Williams family member are now in direct contact with each other and exchanging information about their family. It's nice the way things have worked out with this request and I wish them both all the best with their family history.
It's a small world too, because Geoff is a really nice guy and we are old friends going back to our teenage years in Llandudno. He told me last week that his eldest brother once worked for my late father many years ago and now that he has mentioned it I can recall my father talking about his brother.
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On 27th September 2015 I drove to the car park by St Tudno's Church and met Geoff there, he is a present day Williams family member and also an old friend of mine from our teenage years. We had a good catch up chat before I had the pleasure of meeting Kaye, her husband and two members of Geoff's family who had just attended an open air service at St Tudno's Church.
We all talked for ages and then I left as it was the Williams' time to enjoy the rest of the day.
Geoff told me later that they went to the graveyard and saw the grave of John Williams that I had previously posted and they also found the grave of John's father, Owen Williams, his wife Mary and the daughter Elizabeth.
Owen Williams tragically died at the young age of 46 when he was working in the quarry in Happy Valley and a rock fell and hit him on the head.
According to Geoff, Kaye was so excited by everything that she and her husband extended their stay in Llandudno. It was so nice to put a face to a name and meeting all those nice people
Kaye had originally contacted the forum for information about her Grandmother but had ended up knowing her G G Grandparents and lots more beside.
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I went to the Archives this week and had a look at some Census records for the family of Owen Williams ( Kaye's G G Grandfather)
The 1971 Census details are:-
Owen Williams age 40 Gardener born Anglesey living at Old Road shops
Mary " 44 " Llandudno
d shopsJohn " son 9 " "
Catherine dau 7 " "
Owen son 5 " "
Elizabeth dau 3 " "
Following Owen's tragic death in the mid 1870's the 1881 Census was as follows:-
Mary Williams Widow age 54 Charwoman living at Cromwell House Old Road Llandudno
John " son 18 Mason's apprentice
Catherine dau 16 Domestic servant
Owen " son 15 Labourer
Elizabeth dau 12 Scholar
I had a look at the Llandudno Register of Banns of Marriage but could not find an entry for Owen & Mary but on hindsight I should also have looked at the Eglwysrhos Register as Mary may have lived in the Parish of Eglwysrhos. The Register may have given the town in Anglesey where Owen was born and this would help with further searches
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I visited Old Road after leaving the Archives to try and trace Cromwell House. Names and places have changed over the years but I think that Cromwell House is either a house called Allandale and is on the Corner of Plas Road or the building where the Chip Shop is now.
Whichever property it is then it's only about 50 yards from where John Williams lived in Llwynon Gardens.
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When I was in the Archives this week looking at the 1881 Census I also noticed another entry at Old Road. This was for a William Williams aged 38 and his wife Jane aged 36.
William and Jane lived at Myrtle House Old Road and William was a builder by trade and was born in Anglesey as was Jane.
With a popular name like Williams you get a lot of red herrings while doing any research but this I found interesting although you do need definite evidence to prove the link with Owen Williams.
I'll call at the Archives asap and have a look at the Register of Banns of Marriage for Eglwysrhos and see if I can find anything
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I called at the Archives today and had a look at a few things. The Street Index for 1939 confirms that Cromwell House is where the Fish & Chip Shop is now. ( Allendale is listed in it but wasn't in the 1929 Street Index).
The building has been altered over the years but Cromwell House is the bit on the left of the building.
The Archives also has a Marriage Register for Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and I found this item at No 180 in the Llandudno Register. It seems that Owen and Mary both lived in Madoc Street and as was common in those days the numbers of the properties are not listed.
There was no other entry for an Owen and Mary and I think that this could well be Kaye's G G Grandparents Wedding as the ages are very similar to those on the Census records
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I was looking again at the 1859 record from the Marriage Register and noted that Mary Jones and her father lived at Madoc Street Llandudno.
Anyone who knows about the History of Llandudno will know about the legal stealing of the common land by Lord Mostyn and his Enclosure Act of 1843.
The squatters on the common land had their land and property "stolen" and they were rehoused by Lord Mostyn in Madoc Street in about 1850
I had a look at a book "Llandudno before the Hotels" by Christopher Draper and in it he lists the people who lived on the Morfa and were evicted by Lord Mostyn and I found an entry for Mary Jones, her father Owen Jones and the names of their large family.
The book is a great read for anyone interested in the history of Llandudno and it even shows where Owen Jones lived on the Morfa. In actual fact he lived in a prime location near where the Lifeboat slipway is now.
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Hello again to all on the forum and thankyou.Through Hugo and his cousin we were able to establish that my grandmother,Phyllis, has nephews and nieces living in Llandudno currently. These are my mother's cousins ,that she had no knowledge of. My trip to Llandudno ,originally to carry out more research ,turned into a wonderful,exciting meeting with the sons and daughters of Phyllis' two brothers, and two of their children plus of course,Hugo.We were taken to all the addresses with which I'd become familiar through the censuses and saw the Great Orme's Head by car ,tram, and cable car.The weather played its part to show it off at its best with clear views of the coastline.The open air service at St.Tudno's was the last of the year and a fitting place to start as we were able to visit the grave of my great grandparents, and also my great great grandparents afterwards.It is a place of great peace and beauty.These gravestones gave valuable family information and we are very grateful to those who recorded the inscriptions and to those who look after the churchyard.
We had a very enjoyable and memorable stay in Llandudno.As well as getting to know my new relatives I visited the archives and the registry office.All the staff were extremely helpful.One document I was particularly pleased to find was Phyllis'sister's marriage which revealed that Phyllis was a witness and we have her signature-Something I am excited to show my mother.
I have explained who everyone is to my mother with charts and photos etc as it has been a lot to take in and now she is in a position to be able to be in touch and hopefully visit herself one day.
The Great Orme is a wonderful historical place of natural beauty and I am proud that my ancestors
were part of it .
Thank you again to the forum and especially to Hugo for his kindness in sharing his local knowledge.
I have just seen he has been posting more and so I am going to study that now!
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Hugo,you have found so much interesting material that although I said I was going to have a short break from the research while I assimilate and consolidate all I have learned,I shall just have to carry on!
I felt a great affinity with the Great Orme's landscape as it reminded me of the terrain of Dartmoor and the coast where I grew up,so I would be delighted to find that our family was one of the originals through Mary,my great,great,grandmother.
When I was in the archives I found an interesting entry.It was a baptism for John Williams,son of Owen,a carter and Mary for June 14th 1862.The abode was just Cwlach.
I was also given some information for the 1861 census which showed an Owen and Mary Williams living in the Back of Pengiven(?) House.Owen is an agric.labourer and is from Anglesea,although I can't make out the district.(RG9 4359)
I shall see if I can pinpoint John's marriage and birth as certificates may help to check on Owen.I think John and Annie may have had a civil marriage so there won't be a parish record.
I notice Owen and Mary Jones were married by licence which I think is why there were no banns.There may be a document for the licence.
It's interesting that in 1891 Mary is at "Northern Grove" in the census but I think this was at Bodyfryd Road between no.3 and Claremont House.(You mentioned this address previously as mentioned in the G.O.Explorer's journal) This is the name used later in Maelgwyn Tce by John and Annie . Myrtle Grove was also used at Maelgwyn Tce.In 1901 Mary is back at Old Road.
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Hello Kaye I am Hugo's cousin ,I got reading your this topic between yourself and Hugo things started to ring a bell and I started getting interested asked questions when I asked Jeff things well with Jeff and Hugo working hard it all come good , Jeffs wife has said how exciting it was and the way you all had a lovely catch up ,so glad you enjoyed the Orme and as Jeff said you extended your stay ,hope you find out lots more . Norman
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Hi Norman, hope that you are keeping well and thanks again for everything that you have done to make this happen. As an old Ormeite you'll know a lot about the Orme and it's history.
Like Kaye has said it also reminds me of Dartmoor too. My wife's relatives lived in Tavistock near the Moors and we have been there a few times. Her relatives then moved to Plymouth.
Llandudno's population in 1801 was only 318 and increased to 1131 by 1851 so there may be ways through Church Records etc to go further back in time.
As for the Williams side of the family, Owen Williams' father was also called Owen Williams but at present we don't know the name of the village or town where they lived.
A lot of the copper miners and builders came to Llandudno from Amlwch so it'll be interesting to see if they lived there.
Our Nain Ellen (Grandmother) also came from Amlwch as did her mother whose maiden name was Ellen Williams, now that would be some coincidence. ?{}?
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I went to the Archives again and had a look at the Marriage Registers for Llandudno and Eglwysrhos. I was hoping to find an entry for Owen Jones and his wife Cathrine aka Kitty as they were both born in Llandudno and were one of the first squatters on the Morfa.
Unfortunately I couldn't find any entry for them in the Church records but they may have got married in a Chapel instead and Chapel records are not always available
I then went on Ancestry and looked at the Census records for 1841. There are hundreds of Owen Williams' in Anglesey in the 1841 Census so I took his age and year of death into account and it would appear that he was born in 1831.
Assuming that year to be correct there were only two entries that had a father and son called Owen Williams.:-
Owen Williams aged 65 shopkeeper of Tyn Llidiart Rhosybol in the Parish of Amlwch
Margaret Williams wife aged 42
Owen Williams son aged 10
Owen Williams aged 50 farmer of ??? fawr Llaneugrad
Catherine Williams wife aged 45
Owen Williams son aged 10
Unfortunately there is no evidence to prove that either of the above are your Owen Williams but it's something to think about. If we knew for certain the year of Owen's birth then it would make the search easier
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I've looked at this again and am a bit confused. The year of 1831 given to me, was arrived from info in the Burial Index for Owen Williams who died in the Happy Valley quarry.
Looking back at the copy of the entry from the Marriage Register on the 7th October 1859 however , Owen's age was 30 so if that was correct then Owen would have been born either in 1830 ( up to 6th Oct 1830) or the tail end of 1829.
Research can be enjoyable but also frustrating, so back to the Archives next week to look at the 1851 Census.
In the 1851 Census Owen Williams the father will be there, so may Owen Williams the son born C1830 but it will be interesting to see if there is a William Williams born C1843 there. He may be the one in Myrtle Grove Old Road ( later the section called Bodhyfryd Road)
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I went to the Archives this afternoon but couldn't find a grave for Owen and Cathrine Jones at St Tudno's Church or at St Hilary's in Llanrhos the burial Indexes I looked at only show the graves with headstones.
The Register of Banns of Marriage only start from 1853 so there was no point in looking at those.
I then had a look at the Llandudno Baptism Register for 1813 to 1862 ( ref CEP17/1/2) and this showed the Baptisms of all the children listed in Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the Hotels) apart from Ellinor. I had a photo copy done of Mary's Baptism only because she is the direct line ancestor of the Williams family. All the Baptism details I saw are shown below:-
No Date Child's name Parents name occupation address
145 13/4/1823 John Owen & Catherine Jones Miner Llwyn Helig
171 17/4/1825 Catherine " " "
207 13/2/1825 Mary " " Y Storws
231 31/1/1830 Anne " " "
277 13/12/1834 Ann " " "
336 1/9/1839 Gaynor " " "
435 13/5/1849 Ellen " " Y Morfa
aged 27 and a half years
531 6/10/1854 Anne " Butcher Ty Popty
538 17/12/1854 Elizabeth " Miner Pen Y Ffrith
658 3/12/1858 Catherine naughty boy of Gaynor Jones no entry New Cottage
From what I've found above Owen Jones' daughter Gaynor No338 must have had an illegitimate daughter when she was about 19 and named her after her own mother
There are three Ann or Anne's recorded but I've found in the past that parents often named their next child after one that had died previously and that may be the case here.
No 531 has Owen Jones as a Butcher and living at Ty Popty on 6/10/1854 which is the only entry with a different occupation although we know that Owen was a pig slaughter man. Ty Popty as it's Welsh name suggests was the bakery and was in Cwlach Street
Just for your info Kaye, Llwyn Helig was on the Great Orme where the copper mine is now (opposite the half way tram station.
Y Storws (The Store house) I'm not sure where that was but on the Orme somewhere
Y Morfa that's where the modern day promenade is now and near the life boat slipway. They lived in a Ty Unnos and were one of the first squatters there
Ty Popty ( Bakery house) Cwlach Street
Pen Y Ffrith on the great Orme just past Cyll Terrace
New Cottage It'll be on the Great Orme but not sure where although there is a Ty Newydd (New House) in Old Road opposite Llwynon Gardens
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I can see that the entry No 658 has been edited because of the B word, sorry about that but I copied it exactly as it stated in the Register. In modern day English it would have read " illegitimate daughter"
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$booboo$
I've only just noticed that I've made a mistake on No 207 Mary Jones.
The date of the Baptism was 3rd Feb 1828 as shown in the photo and not the 13th Feb 1825 as posted. :-[
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I was reading Chris Draper's book last night and at page 188 he mentions Y Storws. The stone warehouse had been erected on the Morfa by the mining companies. The first Tai Unnos were erected alongside Y Storws, using the familiar warehouse name as a reference point for their address.
With this in mind and the information about the Baptism's I found, Owen Jones and his wife Cathrine were living as squatters on the Morfa in 1828 and Mary, I believe was born there.
The family would have remained in their Ty Unnos until the Enclosure Act of 1843 was enforced and they were moved by Lord Mostyn to new cottages in Madoc Street that were built to rehouse the squatters.
In the book Chris Draper also mentions that in 1861 Owen Jones & the family were living at 3 Wyddfyd Cottages. I've actually been inside that house because my brother lived there when he was first married
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This is just another snippet from Chris Draper's book but on page 193 he says "Catherine senior, or Kitty as she was known to villagers , ran a rival bakehouse to Marged Jones' village "Typopty" and used a similar "trumpeting" system" to attract people to her bakery.
When I checked the Baptism records, I found an entry No 531 on the 6th October 1854 for Anne , daughter of Owen And Catherine Jones and their address was given as Ty Popty which was in Cwlach Street Llandudno
Could it be that Marged Jones of Ty Popty ( The Bakehouse) Cwlach Street is in fact related to Owen Jones either either as a sister or sister in law?
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I was at the Archives today and had a look at the Burial Indexes for St George's Church and Capel Ainon being the other two Cemeteries for the area but could not find an entry for Owen Jones and his wife Cathrine.
I then looked at the Llandudno Marriage Register for Llandudno covering the years 1813 to 1837 and could find no entry for Owen and Cathrine there either.
I also had a look at an old Baptism record for Llandudno to see if I could find an entry for Owen Jones who was born in Llandudno and found two entries:-
One was on 3rd November 1793 for Owen Jones son of Hugh Jones by his wife Elizabeth and the other entry was:-
14th March 1801 for Owen Jones son of Hugh Jones by Elizabeth his wife
There were no other entries for an Owen Jones but it's a mystery why Hugh and Elizabeth Jones had two sons Baptised called Owen Jones. When this happened in the past it was usually because the first Owen Jones had died and the second Owen Jones was named in honour of the first one. I didn't check the Burial Register between 1703 and 1801 due to lack of time
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The entire population of Llandudno was only 318 in 1801 but you can't assume anything without having definite proof that people are who you think they are.
They do throw up some interesting things though and make you think. In the very old Baptism records I looked at yesterday there are two entries for a child called Owen Jones with Hugh Jones being the father and Elizabeth his wife.
What is the explanation there?
I read Chris Draper's book again last night and looked at a list of rented small holdings and their tenants during the early 1800's. There were two Hugh Jones listed and one entry was for Pen Hwllfa and the other for Rofft both being on the Great Orme.
Could there be two Hugh Jones' with a wife called Elizabeth or is it possible that one person rented both properties?
It's interesting and makes you think a bit.
There was also another Hugh Jones who farmed at Adwy Rhydd and has a descendant on the forum called Jom but I have been able to rule that Hugh Jones out because his wife was called Sarah.
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Hugo,you have managed to find lots of interesting information about the Jones and you are way ahead of me!
I can only add that Owen Williams,John's father has stated he was born in Llanfachreth,Anglesey in one of the censuses.
The 1859 marriage is very possibly theirs and in 1861 a Mary and Owen Williams were living in Llandudno on their own at an address I'm not sure of, which helps to support John's birth being the one recorded in 1862 at Cwlach .However its always good to have more evidence , but I haven't found anything useful online yet.Finding baptisms for John's siblings may help in proving their addresses and dates and also whether there were any others born before him.
It was lovely to see a glimpse of the Great Orme on "Coast and Country" tonight .Happy memories of that last of the summer weather!
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Hi Kaye, I haven't been looking at the Census records because I know that you will have busy doing that and I didn't want to duplicate the research.
The records in the Archives go back a long way and the older records on Baptisms and burials are just like entries in a note book whereas the later ones are in a proper Register and show the addresses too.
In the 1861 Census is the address not legible? If you can make any sense of it put it on here and our local knowledge may help.
That info about Llanfachraeth is a good find too as it narrows the search down. At the 2001 census the community of Llanfachraeth had a population of 566 increasing slightly at the 2011 census to 589. so in the 1800's the population would have been much less and so should be easier to trace.
I'm hoping to go to the Archives again soon so I'll look at the Baptism records and see if I can find anything.
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Hello Hugo-This may mean something to you-The address for Owen and Mary Williams in 1861 reads Back P*ngivess* Ho*.The previous entry is for7,Bodafon Row and the next Mostyn Street,Central Library.Owen and Mary are in their thirties.Mary was born in Llandudno and Owen,an ag lab, from Anglesea,Llanfach*th.Owen is the Head with Mary his wife ,and 2 boarders.In the book it says that Owen Jones and family were in 3,Wyddfyd Cottages in 1861 .I will look next time in the1861 census and see which children were still living at home with Owen and Kitty.
In 1871 Owen and Mary Williams had 4 chidren and were living at the"Old Road Shops".I will see if I can find an entry for Owen and Kitty.
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I've got a rough idea of where they lived in 1861 but will check it out for myself when I look at the Census. I'll also look at Owen in Llanfachraeth in the 1841 or 1851 Census records.
I've got a feeling that the "Old Road Shops" are in fact Cromwell House but again no conclusive proof of that.
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Hugo,if you have time when you are at the archives to look at these baptism dates which I think are likely to be those of Owen and Mary's children it may help with where they were living between censuses.
John Williams-14th June 1862,Cwalch(I saw this one when I was there but didn't have time to find the others,parents Owen and Mary Williams.I have now found these dates on FamilySearch:
Catherine Williams 3rd February 1865
Owen Williams 23rd March 1866
Elizabeth Williams 2nd April1873
I'm not sure if they will confirm Mary's maiden name but they seem to correspond with ages in the census so would be useful information
I have plenty to get on with for now from what you have already done so I will be visiting my library over the next couple of weeks to keep investigating.
It's lovely to see that through the forum Downunder,after lots of detective work has also found living relatives just as happened for me. Thanks again Hugo.
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I was in the Archives today and had a look at the Baptism records and found the 4 that you have listed. I did go right through the Registers but there were no other children for Owen and Mary listed. The dates agree with your findings but Mary's maiden name is not listed on the Registers. The addresses and occupations given were as follows:-
1862 Cwlach Carter
1863 ! " labourer
1866 Church Walks Labourer
1873 Old Road Labourer
I noticed some interesting entries in the Registers too. There were entries for a William and Elizabeth Williams and John and Margaret Williams with both families living at Pen Y Ffrith. Could they be related in some way to this ever increasing Williams family.
With regard to the 1861 Census, Bodafon Row is a back street between the Promenade and Mostyn Street and in 1910 was renamed Bodafon Street. Owen and Mary lived at the Back of Pengwern House ( could be hotel?) and I would imagine that it is somewhere in Bodafon Street.
I found an interesting bit in the 1851 Census and again there is no proof that it is your Owen but it was the only entry in Anglesy for Llanfachraeth and the entry at No 86 for an address at 3 Hafodwen Road Llanfachraeth is as follows:-
Ann Williams Head Widow age 67 In the Parish Relief Law born ( can't make it out)
Owen Williams inmate age 22 Old weaver born Mechel about 1829
Ann Williams Grand daughter With her Grand mother born Machraeth
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Thank you very much Hugo-With the other information I have I think that confirms that group of baptisms are O and M's 4 children and I now have as good an idea of when John was born as I can get.
Owen and Mary certainly moved around a lot in the early years of marriage,but eventually settled in Old Road which must have been convenient for Owen to get to the quarry to work and Mary became a lodging house keeper .
It would take some work to find out how and if all these Williams are connected but the fact the parish records are so well maintained is a great resource.The same Christian names seem to crop up over and again and I had wondered if a naming pattern was used similar to that in Ireland.
That's a very interesting find in 1851 in Anglesey and thanks for deciphering" Pengwern" .Plenty for me to work on-thanks!
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Just an add on Kaye about Cwlach that was mentioned as their address in the Census. The street leading off from Llwynon Gardens is Cwlach Street.
it's quite a narrow street and crosses over Cwlach Road which goes uphill on the right to Haulfre Gardens and Cwlach Street continues straight on for about 200 yards.
I don't think it was called Cwlach Street in 1861 and the only reason I know that is because my G G Grandfather was living there in the 1861 Census.
There was a property called Cwlach Cottage and another bigger property called Y Cwlach in the area but without seeing the Census for the whole street, I couldn't pinpoint the exact property.
I have a copy of the Census for 1861 showing my G G Grandfather's address but unfortunately Owen and Mary are not on that page so it'll have to be back to the Archives to check it out.
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I have been looking at the Jones family in the censuses and it is confusing and I shall have to look again.
In 1861The family at 3,Wyddfyd Cottages,East Old Road has Owen Jones,65,copper miner but no other Jones.The others are daughters and 2 grandchildren,Elinor Edwards and Robert Davies. This seems to relate to an 1851 census at Twll y Mig with Owen Jones,56,Cathrine,52,G*or,10 and Robert Davies,8.I wonder whether you couldn't find Ellinor's baptism because the name could actually be mistaken for Gaynor.
In1841 there is the family at Morfa Upper Township as in the book but 10 years younger.If it is all the same family then Owen Jones came from Pensarn, Anglesey according to the 1861 census.
There are also lots of Owen Williams.He must have been born between 1827 and 1831,I think.We know his father was also known as Owen and that he came from Anglesey but we don't when he arrived in Llandudno so I am looking at the 1851 census to see if he is there but it is quite a task.
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It does sound confusing Kaye and I'll have a look again at your posting. I'm out all day today so I can't look too closely at it now. $dins$
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I've just come back from Dylan's Restaurant in Menai Bridge but I'm out again soon so can't look too deeply at your latest reply but will do so tomorrow.
I was in Bodafon Street yesterday (prior to 1910 it was called Bodafon Row). I haven't found out where "Back of Pengwern House (or hotel is) but took some photos to show you the street and it'll give you some idea of the difficulty in finding what Parishes houses were in.
The first photo is of Bodafon Street from the Clonmel Street end. The houses up to the black bin are in the old Parish of Llandudno, those houses behind the bin are in Eglwysrhos
Punchinella Cottage in the 2nd photo was the home of Richard Codman (Punch & Judy) who came to Llandudno in 1864
The 3rd photo is of the boundary marker behind the bin and the 4th photo is of a terrace of cottages in the old Parish of Eglwysrhos.
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Hi Kaye, I've had a look at your recent posting and it's difficult to work things out but here goes:-
Owen Williams, I've had a look at the photo copy of the Marriage Certificate and these are the details:-
Owen Williams' father was also called Owen Williams and was a coach man by trade but we don't know if his father was alive at the date of Owen's marriage
The witnesses were David Hughes and Anne Jones.
Owen and Mary's age was stated as 30 in 1859 on the day of the marriage, but this disagrees with the headstone on his grave which gives his birth at C1831 so there is 3 or years discrepancy between the two events we know about
I did find an Owen Williams in Mechel Anglesey in the 1851 Census and it gives his date of birth at about 1829. This person may or not be your Owen Williams as we have no evidence to prove it one way or another.
With regard to Owen Jones and Catherine Jones, do you know where Catherine was born as the weddings were normally carried out in the home Parish.
It may be that she wasn't from Llandudno and that's why I couldn't find a record of their marriage
By 1861 all of Owen & Catherine's children would have been old enough to have left home and that may be the reason why they are not on the 1861 Census. Sadly Catherine, Owen's wife may have died in the meantime and that may explain why she is not included on the Census.
Gaynor's age in the 1851 Census was 10 and Ellinor's age from Chris Draper's book was C1850 so there is a possibility of a mix up but looking back on my notes I can see when I copied the Baptism records down word for word it showed that Gaynor Jones was born 31st May 1839, she was then Baptised on 1st Sept 1839
Ellen, Owen Jones's daughter was Baptised on 13th May 1849 but the Baptism records show that she was 27 and a half years of age at her Baptism.
My theory, and that is all it is, is that Ellen's name was inadvertently shown as Ellinor in the book, but in fact the book should have said Gaynor as Gaynor's age matches the Census details whereas Ellen/ Ellinor does not.
Family research is interesting but can be frustrating too
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Just a correction to the above, Ellinor's age in Chris Draper's book was 11 and that was in C 1850 and very similar to Gaynor's age in the 1851 Census.
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I called at the Conwy Archives today only to find that it has closed for two weeks to do stocktaking. I was hoping to find Pengwern House/hotel and also where Catherine Jones was born.
I'll call there again when the place reopens
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Hi Hugo their is a house in Llanrhos called pengwern could it be what your looking for .
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Thanks Norman for mentioning that but it is definitely not that house. It's somewhere in Llandudno and in the Census of 1861 it lists Bodafon Row which is now Bodafon Street, then Back of Pengwern House or Hotel and a Library in that order.
The Census count normally comes in some type of order and I have a feeling that it is in the back streets between Mostyn Street and the Prom.
As you know the hotels and large houses sometimes had small cottages behind them and that why I think their house was behind a much larger property but I can't remember any property called Pengwern and I was hoping the 1911 Street Index in the Archives would help me.
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Thank you Hugo for the photos and Norman,for your help too.I have not made much more progress but will start again in the New Year.
I sorted all the research out to date, for a visit to my mother and she was delighted to see all we had found out.I
Wishing you all a Happy Christmas and Peaceful New Year!
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After checking the 1861 Census again for Owen & Mary Williams when they were living at " back of Pengwern House" I noticed that the next place was the Central Library Mostyn Street. The Library at 44 Mostyn Street wasn't built until 1875 but I knew there was an earlier one at the Baths North Parade and the Census also showed other property in Vadre Lane which is between Upper Mostyn Street and the North Parade on the Promenade.
Anyway I called at the Archives today and found Pengwern House in the 1911 Street Index and it was at No 7 North Parade. It was then owned by a Mrs Shaw and was apartments. In the 1939 Street Index the name of No 7 North Parade had changed to "Shropshire Hotel" a name I can remember from my earlier years.
No 7 is now part of the Baytree hotel and I think Pengwern House was the bit where the door on the right (of the two doors) is now. (1st photo)
Owen lived at the back of Pengwern House in Vadre Lane and the second photo is of the back of the Baytree Hotel as it is now and exactly where Owen would have lived is impossible to say now.
I had a look in the Eglwysrhos (Llanrhos) Marriage Register for 1813-1836 but there was no entry for Owen and Cathrine (Kitty) Jones so I'm guessing that Catherine was not born in Llandudno despite what the 1851 Census says
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I was reading an article on Twll y Mig recently but for the life of me I can't remember where I read it. I do know where it was according to the Census and it was in the area to the back of the Empire Hotel
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and your family and to all the Williams family in the Three Towns area
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While I was looking for something in the Marriage Register for St George's Church Llandudno I came across an entry for John Owen Tudno Williams and his marriage to Margaret Hobson.
I'm not sure if Kaye and my friend Geoff have seen the original copy so I had it photo copied just in case. The No in the Register is 229 and the date looks like the 11th August 1922