Wyddfydd Road, Great Orme 1927

[Kaye]

 The free site Welsh Newspapers Online has various titles pre-1910 .
I have found an advert for a property auction to be held at the Marine Hotel,Llandudno on 24th June 1904 in the "Welsh Coast Pioneer"
It names Myrtle Grove,Northern Grove, and three others as being Maelgwyn Terrace,Winllan Avenue-rental( £20 a year!)
I also found a reference in The Llandudno Advertiser 24th April 1903 page 7 about the "New Cemetery"."It has been decided to accept the tender of Messrs J and J Williams of Northern Grove,
Maelgwyn Terrace....
I suppose these house names like surnames are not unique and its a question of disentangling the right Williams'with the right addresses,
In the 1901 census (RG13/5289)the Williams family(Head John Williams-builder) is listed at Winllan Avenue( 179) and no house name but I now
notice that at the top of the page is Vaughan Street,Bodywily?? and under 180 ,at the bottom of the
page Vienna House.Does that make any sense at all?

[Hugo]

That's a really good find Kaye, so we know that they lived in a terraced property in Winllan Avenue.    That has narrowed it down and I'm guessing now but the street may have been numbered at some point between the Baptism of Roland in 1900 and the 1901 Census.
There may be a way of finding out exactly where the properties are in the street but does the 1901 Census have a number for the house in Winllan Avenue?
If it doesn't,  then the address can be traced from the Rent Books which are in the Archives.   I'm not sure how far  back they go but I've traced my own Grandparents in the 1906 Rates book

[Hugo]

notice that at the top of the page is Vaughan Street,Bodywily?? and under 180 ,at the bottom of the
page Vienna House.Does that make any sense at all?

I'm afraid that it doesn't to me Kaye.   We have a Vaughan Street in Llandudno  but I can't think what Bodywily?? is.    Vienna House doesn't mean anything to me either.

[Hugo]

I've just found that article in the paper and it seems that there were five properties in that terrace namely  Penyrorsedd,  Pendros,  Iona Villa,  Myrtle Grove and Northern Grove.
Now Winllan Avenue has been renumbered and probably only the numbers appear on records such as the Register of Electors,  Zoopla etc  but there is still a good chance that at least one of the five houses has retained their original name .and it is displayed on the property
If that is the case then the original Maelgwyn Terrace will be found, failing that it's back to the Rates book for confirmation

I didn't look for Vienna House or Vaughan street as it had no apparent link to your family.

Thanks for the e-mail I've just opened.   As soon as I can I'll take a photo of the property once I've found it in Winllan Avenue.

[Kaye]

I just have   page 41 of the census printed and can now see that the first family on it must continue from the previous page .They are at Bodgwilyne(?),Vaughan Street.
There are then 4 addresses at Winllan Avenue and a 5th called Vienna House.( The Head of House  is an Austrian subject which is probably why!)
In the first column which I think says No.of Schedule the Winllan Avenue addresses have numbers176-179.Vienna House is 180.Perhaps these are there actual numbers.
179 is by John and Ann Williams and 3 children,Gladys,John O T. and Caradog.
I shall have to look at the next couple of pages to see if the numbering continues next visit to my library.
If rent books are available at the archives they could be a very useful source,thanks

[Kaye]

Thanks Hugo,fingers crossed they are still there!

[Hugo]

Kaye,  I think those numbers are how the properties are listed in the Census records and not the actual number of each house in the street.     It's a long street but providing at least one name remains on a property then I should be able to find where the terrace is.

[Kaye]

Yes,numbers are supposed to be in the second column.
In 1898 a John Williams is at 3,Maelgwyn Tce,(It then says Henllan Avenue but I suspect this is an error and it should be Winllan Ave.John Williams of 3,Llwynon Gns is also mentioned.They are both master masons so could be the"Messrs J andJ Williams of "Northern Grove"Maelgwyn Tce who win the tender for the new cemetery walls and entrances in 1903.I have a reference to "Northern Shore"
Winllan Avenue in 1902 for John Williams but again it could be an error in transcript Grove/Shore.
If number 3 was Northern Grove it would be very helpful in verifying matters!

[Hugo]

I think that No3 Maelgwyn Terrace would have had another number when the terrace was incorporated into the renumbering of Winllan Avenue.
Now that it has been confirmed where the terrace is it may be possible to trace it via shanks' pony.   I'll have a look on a dry day though and failing that the Rates book at the Archives will help.     The rate books not only show the ratepayer but they also show the owner of the property.

[Hugo]

I had a walk along Winllan Avenue today and the very first house I came to was Northern Grove at No 28 Winllan Avenue.  It's the end terrace with the mobility scooter parked outside.
There was no other house in the street that had retained its old name from Maelgwyn Terrace.    I did have a good look around the street and saw every house there but there was no name plate to identify the original Maelgwyn Terrace but I suspect that the house  names we are aware of are next door neighbours.
The 4th photo is of 46 Alexandra Road (house with white door)  and the 5th is of part of that road

[Kaye]

Thank you very much Hugo for locating Northern Grove.How lucky that the present owners have retained the name!Those houses must be at least 120 years old .This helps with my research to know that Maelgwyn Terrace is in Winllan Avenue where the family was in 1901 and not 2 separate addresses.
It's good to see Alexandra Road is still there too which is the address I have for the family in 1911.
Another piece in the puzzle,thanks!

[Hugo]

Kaye,    I've found the Grave for  Annie Mary Williams at St Tudno's Church in Llandudno.      It's at Section G No 284 and also buried with her are her mother Annie and her father John
There is a long inscription in Welsh on the Headstone and I'll translate that as soon as I have time but the details about the 3 are as shown below:-
Annie Mary  Williams   died 31st July 1897 aged 11 months
Annie               "          died 26th December 1924  aged 59
John                 "         died  20th July 1925       aged 63

The words on the headstone are not very clear but I have copied them from the Burial Index in the Archives and will translate them as soon as I can.      The grave is in the old part of the Cemetery and near the Church and I've enclosed some photos for you.   The headstone on the left as you look at the Church is the Williams one

[Kaye]

This is a wonderful find,Hugo.I can see how weathered the stone is and difficult to read but I can just about make out Lwyn Onn Gardens,where we know they lived in 1897.The original burial would have been in 1897 when there must  have still been space and perhaps John and Annie decided then to join her, as by the time of their death in 1924/5  it seems from info on the forum that the cemetery was the more usual place of burial.From your photo it looks like a prime spot.
That is valuable information about John and Annie's dates of death who died within 6 months of each other.Verification of them as  Phyllis'parents is closer as  we are narrowing the gap of "missing years" .Hopefully their address at this time will connect with Phyllis.They died before Patricia Annie was born in 1927.
This also means that John was born about 1861/1862 and Annie 1865.
Thank you for all the legwork this must have involved,Hugo in trips to the archives and up the Orme.I am also grateful to whoever recorded the inscriptions and that you can translate the Welsh for me!


 

[Hugo]

Thanks Kaye,  I've just had a phone call from my cousin Norman and he had some exciting news from the current Williams family.     I've sent you a private e-mail explaining the present position.
It's very promising news and I'm sure that it's what you've been searching for.       

[Hugo]

Thanks Norman for contacting the present day Williams family member, it's great news to hear that his father was born in Northern Grove as he'll be able to put the pieces of the jigsaw together for Kaye.       
I've not heard from him yet so I can't put Kaye it touch until I do hear.