Author Topic: Incompetence: CCBC (and other Public Bodies and Statutory Undertakers...)  (Read 57341 times)

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Offline born2run

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2017, 09:14:58 AM »
My Wife doesn't get any sick leave at all, unless signed off by the Doctor. I think this is as much a cause for concern as people abusing the sick leave they are given. People going to work ill, especially those who look after children/old people etc is a very real danger.

That is also why I don't agree with Hugo's idea that incentive's to come to work are a good idea either.

I think this 'Sickness Emperor' will do more harm than good.


Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2017, 09:19:40 AM »
It's not quite as good as it sounds. They do have to produce medical evidence for any time exceeding 7 days, I think, and after a month the employer can choose to compel them to have an independent medical examination to confirm the illness is genuine.

It probably was abused in previous years, but it's become much easier to get rid of staff who are consistently off work, now, so I doubt most are willing to risk it that often.  And the really generous conditions as described above only apply to so-called permanent appointments in the main, such as Hospital Doctors, Teachers, Nurses, Civil Servants and Social Workers. And the management in each of those has become far more aggressive in pursuing the individuals if absence is either prolonged or frequent.
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Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2017, 09:24:57 AM »
Just picking up on B2R's post about incentives. 

In a good organisation or company people should want to go into work. If they don't, then I would suggest the company needs to understand why not, especially if there's evidence many are in that situation. All the evidence shows that an unhappy workforces isn't a productive workforce.

Almost all who go off on 'long term sick leave' tend to be genuinely ill, either physically or mentally. Now, some may think it's acceptable for an employer to simply fire someone who's just had a diagnosis of cancer, but others might not.  And that's really the choice society has to make.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2017, 02:51:42 PM »
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My Wife doesn't get any sick leave at all, unless signed off by the Doctor. I think this is as much a cause for concern as people abusing the sick leave they are given. People going to work ill, especially those who look after children/old people etc is a very real danger.

That is also why I don't agree with Hugo's idea that incentive's to come to work are a good idea either.

I think this 'Sickness Emperor' will do more harm than good.

BTR you've hit the nail on the head and that is exactly what I've said.    National Government and Local Government employees are protected with regard to sick leave and I take it by your wife's example that she doesn't work for local or national government.
In outside industry they don't have the sort of protection for genuine sick absences as they do in national and local government and it should be addressed.

However  I think that the CCBC do not need to have a well paid additional person in to monitor sick leave, that is their line manager's job,  no one else's and if they are not doing it properly then they should be held accountable for it.
The line manager should be able to determine the genuine cases from those that are not and should be looking for patterns in someone's sick absences.   That's not just to get rid of people but to see if there are any underlying problems that the line manager can help them with.

Many years ago when I first started work I had to record the sick leave of a staff of about 30 people, roughly divided as 15 men and 15 women.   When I checked them at the end of the year 3 women each had over 20 days sick leave and the aggregate total of sick leave for all the men came to less than 20 days.   This isn't a sexist remark it is just a fact based on the figures I had obtained, yet to the best of my knowledge and belief this was never looked into and continued until the office closed.

I can quote many examples, for instance a person broke their leg and was off work on full pay for 6 months and then returned to work.  Someone asked a close friend of hers "was she better" and the reply was that she couldn't afford to be on the sick as she would then be on half pay.   
Another time when someone on another section returned back to work after yet having another day off on the sick, they asked me to sign their back to work form
I had a look through their sick record and noticed that they only had  one day's sick leave each time and by coincidence every sick day was on a Friday.    I refused and pointed out that they seemed to have Fridayitis and asked them to discuss it with their line manager who was coming in the following day.

It's the same old story about the small minority spoiling it for the rest but in this case it's the vulnerable and needy who lose out most

Offline Fester

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2017, 03:15:23 PM »
'All the evidence shows that an unhappy workforces isn't a productive workforce'

I'm not so sure Ian.
You see the Egyptians and Romans used loads of slaves and worked them to death.
I assume they weren't happy, but they produced some pretty cool stuff!  :laugh:
Fester...
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Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2017, 03:19:34 PM »
Probably a fairly high attrition rate from things like death, though...  :(
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline born2run

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2017, 03:58:59 PM »
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My Wife doesn't get any sick leave at all, unless signed off by the Doctor. I think this is as much a cause for concern as people abusing the sick leave they are given. People going to work ill, especially those who look after children/old people etc is a very real danger.

That is also why I don't agree with Hugo's idea that incentive's to come to work are a good idea either.

I think this 'Sickness Emperor' will do more harm than good.

BTR you've hit the nail on the head and that is exactly what I've said.    National Government and Local Government employees are protected with regard to sick leave and I take it by your wife's example that she doesn't work for local or national government.
In outside industry they don't have the sort of protection for genuine sick absences as they do in national and local government and it should be addressed.

However  I think that the CCBC do not need to have a well paid additional person in to monitor sick leave, that is their line manager's job,  no one else's and if they are not doing it properly then they should be held accountable for it.
The line manager should be able to determine the genuine cases from those that are not and should be looking for patterns in someone's sick absences.   That's not just to get rid of people but to see if there are any underlying problems that the line manager can help them with.

Many years ago when I first started work I had to record the sick leave of a staff of about 30 people, roughly divided as 15 men and 15 women.   When I checked them at the end of the year 3 women each had over 20 days sick leave and the aggregate total of sick leave for all the men came to less than 20 days.   This isn't a sexist remark it is just a fact based on the figures I had obtained, yet to the best of my knowledge and belief this was never looked into and continued until the office closed.

I can quote many examples, for instance a person broke their leg and was off work on full pay for 6 months and then returned to work.  Someone asked a close friend of hers "was she better" and the reply was that she couldn't afford to be on the sick as she would then be on half pay.   
Another time when someone on another section returned back to work after yet having another day off on the sick, they asked me to sign their back to work form
I had a look through their sick record and noticed that they only had  one day's sick leave each time and by coincidence every sick day was on a Friday.    I refused and pointed out that they seemed to have Fridayitis and asked them to discuss it with their line manager who was coming in the following day.

It's the same old story about the small minority spoiling it for the rest but in this case it's the vulnerable and needy who lose out most

We both work in the private sector. Although my sickness benefits are a lot better than hers, which again is wrong as she has an active job and directly cares for individuals and my job is entirely sedentary, and I care for nobody but myself!

If she is ill tomorrow she can either go to work and put herself and others at risk or stay home and lose a day's pay. If I'm ill I can go to work and have a quiet day sitting in my office or stay home and get full pay.

There's definitely something wrong with the system somewhere!

Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2017, 03:58:59 PM »


Offline Hugo

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2017, 06:04:50 PM »
I'm only guessing BTR but I presume that your wife is in employment where they operate SSP and if that is the case them there are millions of others in the same system.

Of course it's not fair to the genuine people on sick leave but in your negotiating job you will be able to see the other side of the coin and that is from the employer's point of view.    Is it fair for the employer to pay someone's wages when they are not able to work due to sickness or otherwise?

If you're honest you'll know the answer, but this thread is specifically about CCBC and the decision to employ someone to sort out the problem with sick leave.    It's not necessary to employ someone if you already have good line managers who can sort out the genuine cases from  those that spoil it for others.

It is not as easy to dismiss people as we are lead to believe, but there are guidelines that if followed correctly can result in dismissal of staff on grounds of inefficiency

Offline Fester

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2017, 07:38:44 PM »
Funny you should say that B2R, because only today my wife was ill. 

She was so ill that I was forced to physically help her into the kitchen, so she could get on with my breakfast, and then I needed to almost prop her up whilst she cracked on with the washing and ironing.

 &shake&

Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline born2run

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2017, 10:00:50 AM »
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I'm only guessing BTR but I presume that your wife is in employment where they operate SSP and if that is the case them there are millions of others in the same system.

Of course it's not fair to the genuine people on sick leave but in your negotiating job you will be able to see the other side of the coin and that is from the employer's point of view.    Is it fair for the employer to pay someone's wages when they are not able to work due to sickness or otherwise?

If you're honest you'll know the answer, but this thread is specifically about CCBC and the decision to employ someone to sort out the problem with sick leave.    It's not necessary to employ someone if you already have good line managers who can sort out the genuine cases from  those that spoil it for others.

It is not as easy to dismiss people as we are lead to believe, but there are guidelines that if followed correctly can result in dismissal of staff on grounds of inefficiency

Yes SSP. Where you don't get paid for the first three days but do from the fourth day onwards.
Now if you ask me that encourages people to take longer off sick - in my experience most bugs last about 48 hours. How is this good for employers?

If an employee can't sustain a business as well as pay adequate sick leave then that business is not financially viable.Someone in management or the business owner is doing something wrong and it's not the workers who should suffer because of it.

Now as for the councils - I agree a line manager is paid to do that job they shouldn't be employing someone to specifically tackle that part of the job.

In my own experience - this is purely anecdotal. I've found a lot of 'managers' in the councils are scared and intimidated by their workers to the effect they can't manage them.




Offline Hugo

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2017, 11:10:24 AM »
I agree that there is unfairness with the private system but in the public sector the employees are able to do a self certificated sick absence form for up to 7 days  so in effect they are prescribing and writing their own sick note  for that period and that's where part of the problem lies.

The other part is the weak management,  why on earth are they in that job?    Questions should be asked about them as everyone is accountable to someone.

Offline Fester

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2017, 12:18:32 PM »
'Weak Management' Hugo,  that's the only type there is these days.
Sadly, and manager who tries to tackle a thorny issue these days is likely to get slapped with a charge of bullying.

The word Manager doesn't fit well with most roles these days, because it is used glibly, and usually the person with the title is not responsible for any staff.

I'm aware that the 'manager' of one of the larger bars in Llandudno was only paid minimum wage, so he left after 3 months..... and it's now being 'managed' by a lad of 18 !
Fester...
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Offline born2run

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2017, 12:31:13 PM »
Incompetent NW Police!

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 _))*

Offline Bosun

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2017, 01:54:50 PM »
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Incompetent NW Police!

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 _))*

B2R quotes from his favourite truthful and reliable media source.....

So, the Police are contacted by someone extremely concerned about being a family that appears to have gone missing. The Police make enquires to locate them to ensure that they are safe and well.

That's incompetence?
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline born2run

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2017, 02:01:09 PM »
Yes.

Otherwise every family that ever goes on holiday would have an appeal put out for their whereabouts!

There are a 101 other things the police could have done to find out where they were without launching a public facebook appeal. Lazy and incompetent and not for the first time  &shake&

Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2017, 02:01:09 PM »