great orme cemetery

[Hugo]

Jom,  I was in the library today and had a look at the 1881 Census for John and Martha Williams.   The Census shows them living at the Old Telegraph and they had five young children there,  Mary Alice (14) Eleanor (12) Richard (10) William (5) Emma (2)
John was born in Roewen a pretty village not far from Llandudno and Martha was born in Daventry Northants.   
I noticed the age difference between John and Martha and if I'm correct in the 1861 Census John was shown as  living at 16 Bodhyfryd Llandudno and his occupation was a gardener. His place of birth was given as Caerhun but Roewen is in that Parish.
I can't read my print out but I think that he was a Widower aged 39.

[jom]

Hi Hugo,

Been off line for a while.  Modem and work issues!!  Many thanks for the information.

I do have copies of those bits, cheers but have yet to find John before the 1861 return or his father Thomas, a shoemaker according to John and Martha's marriage cert.  Nor do I know who his first wife was but I too, interpreted the return to state he was a widower.   His marriage cert to Martha (1865) also confirms occupation and status.

 I now have a photo from a cousin, of John and Martha.  Their son William (as you noted aged 5 in 1881) was my Great Grandfather whose name was William Elliott Williams.  (Elliott having been Martha's maiden name).

I haven't given up trying to find John Williams before 1861, his first wife or parents but I've been looking many years!  I enjoy all the extra tid bits as they help fill in the blanks and add flesh to the bones to bring ancestors back.  Thank you ... Once again!

[Hugo]

Jom, according to the Epitaph on John Williams he died in 1887 aged 65 so this would mean that he was born C1822.   Rowen was his birthplace and this is in the Parish of Caerhun so when I was in the Archives today I had a look at the Caerhun Baptism records from 1813 - 1870.
Unfortunately they did not have any records that would fit John Williams' profile from 1820 to 1826 by which time he should have been baptised.  I decided then to work backwards and found the following information that may be just a coincidence but I'm posting it just in case.
At pg12  No 89 the following details were shown for the Baptism on 2nd Feb 1817:-
John Williams son of Thomas and Emma Williams    Abode Rowen     Husband's Trade Shoemaker
I carried on looking back and came across this entry:-
At pg 5   this Baptism occured on 23rd October 1814:-
Mary Williams  daughter of Thomas and Emma Williams   Abode Rowen     Husband's trade  Shoemaker

Rowen is only a small village today but it would have been even smaller in those days, so is it just a coincidence that there were two Thomas Williams shoemaker in the village or is this John Williams your relative and the dates are wrong?   

[jom]

Hi Hugo,

Wow ...  Not sure what to make of it yet.  I had previously seen this entry on freeReg but it doesn't give occupation and had therefore vaguely dismissed it in favour of the July 1819 entry showing parents as Thomas and Jane.  (Again no occupation). 

John was fairly consistent with his age on the census returns 1861 onwards and of course his marriage certificate to Martha just gives of full age. 

1861 He's noted as 39, 1871 - 50, 1881 - 60 and 65 on his death certificate.  These all give him a birth date of abt 1821/1822 but he was abit older than Martha when he married and was a widower.  I do know folks played around with their ages at times to seem moe respectable but John seems to have been consistent and is a 5 year alteration worth the effort of the lie?

I shall just have a look at census returns prior to 1861 and put his age as being born 1817 and see what happens.  See if I can find your John born abt 1817.  Watch this space.  Many thanks

PS  The other reason I quite like your findings is that John and Martha named their first child Martha (presumably after her), their second child was ... Emma born and died 1866 but later named another daughter Emma.  They had named their first son Richard Thomas (martha's father was Richard), their second son John.  So they seemed to name them in the old way.

[jom]

Jom, according to the Epitaph on John Williams he died in 1887 aged 65 so this would mean that he was born C1822.   Rowen was his birthplace and this is in the Parish of Caerhun so when I was in the Archives today I had a look at the Caerhun Baptism records from 1813 - 1870.
Unfortunately they did not have any records that would fit John Williams' profile from 1820 to 1826 by which time he should have been baptised.  I decided then to work backwards and found the following information that may be just a coincidence but I'm posting it just in case.
At pg12  No 89 the following details were shown for the Baptism on 2nd Feb 1817:-
John Williams son of Thomas and Emma Williams    Abode Rowen     Husband's Trade Shoemaker
I carried on looking back and came across this entry:-
At pg 5   this Baptism occured on 23rd October 1814:-
Mary Williams  daughter of Thomas and Emma Williams   Abode Rowen     Husband's trade  Shoemaker

Rowen is only a small village today but it would have been even smaller in those days, so is it just a coincidence that there were two Thomas Williams shoemaker in the village or is this John Williams your relative and the dates are wrong?   

Also just remembered that John and Martha's 3rd child was Mary Alice (Named after John's sister? (If this is the right chap).  All common names, I know but the coincidence would appear quite large.  What do you think?

[Hugo]

Also just remembered that John and Martha's 3rd child was Mary Alice (Named after John's sister? (If this is the right chap).  All common names, I know but the coincidence would appear quite large.  What do you think?
[/quote]

It could be a coincidence with the names but at least the Baptism records show the occupation of the father which is a help.  Looking at the Baptism record for 1813 etc it might be that John is the youngest child of Thomas so when I go back again to the Archives I'll look at the records prior to 1813 and see what I can find there.
Do you know for certain what John's mother's name was?    I've assumed that it was Emma and if it was it seems more than a coincidence.  I wish the records revealed their full address and I could have posted a photo if the cottage is still there.
I did have a very quick look in the Burial Indexes for Thomas and Emma but nothing came up on the searches I made

[jom]

No, Hugo,

I actually have no idea as to John's mother's name, unfortunately.  Other researchers have suggested something, can't recall what but neither jane, Emma or Eleanor which is another I wondered about, but can't recall why i thought it a possibility.  Might have been because a daughter of john and martha's was Elinor.  (In terms of naming after family members Martha had no sisters only brothers.  ALL speculation I'm afraid)

Other researchers weren't ever able to recall their source and because I could find nothing to suggest their idea was right, I ignored it (Something like Eleanor Forsythe?)

Sorry I can't help more

[Hugo]

Thanks Jom,   we know that John was born in Rowen from Census records and in the Baptism records that I looked at for the years 1813 to 1827,  although there were other Williams' listed there was only one entry that matched John with his father Thomas.
The records go back to at least 1700 and cover Baptisms, marriages and burials (I think)  but I'm not sure of births.  In those early days people didn't move far from their home so I hope that there is more info to come.

[jom]

hi Hugo,

Have finally done some searching amongst the census returns on ancestry and have found the attached.  Still no sign of an appropriate john Williams in 1851 but still looking.  Thought they might be of interest.  The addresses are 1841 Chapel Street, Tre Y Dre, Llanrwst and 1851 Scotland Street, llanrwst which was just around the corner from Chapel Street (Google maps)

FreeReg hasn't thrown up any other possible siblings for John or ideas on Thomas' wife.  The family search site seems to be having technical difficulties at the moment but will search later

[Hugo]

That's interesting Jom, and if it is the right family then it is possible that Thomas and Emma moved to Llanrwst from Rowen and perhaps they are buried in Llanrwst.
I didn't look at the Burial records for Llanrwst as I was just looking around the Rowen and Llandudno area but will look again asap.

[Hugo]

I had a look at the burial records for Llanrwst ( 2 Churches and 2 Chapels) but couldn't see anything for Thomas or Emma there and the Baptism records for Caerhun prior to 1812 are poor and in a small notebook form and I couldn't see any other siblings there prior to 1812.

[jom]

Hi Hugo,
Thank you for looking for me.  you're too kind.  I still haven't found that John on the 1851 census or a possible wife.

I've not really found any more clues but haven't given up.  I did find a possible date of death for the Emma at Llanrwst Sep Qtr 1860 Llanrwst Age 88 so born abt 1772?

All a bit tenuous.

Will keep on digging

[jom]

Have just had this sent to me which would marginally strengthen the supposition that Hugo has found the correct family baptisms for me.  Again totally inconclusive but lots of coincidences piling up. 
Look at John Williams' age when he died on this remebrance card.  Was originally noted as 69, making his birth 1817.  Someone and the family have no idea who or when has changed it to 65 making his birth 1822

[Hugo]

That was an interesting card Jom.    I checked the records from 1820 to 1827 carefully and John Williams' Baptism was not there but was on the 2nd Feb 1817.   They usually Baptised children soon after they were born so John may have been born in Jan 1817.
If you want a copy of the Baptism record for John then I can arrange for that next time I go to the Archives.
I'll also try the Census records for 1841 and 1851 but it's not going to be easy with such a common name.

[jom]

Hi Hugo,

Many thanks for the offer.  Following your posting I went onto "Findmypast" and found the baptisms there.  So I'm ok for those, thanks.

IF you fancy, when you are in the archives again, I would be interested if there was any record for Thomas and Emma's marriage.  I'm not sure if you said these might be notebook records and therefore difficult to decipher.  I suppose Caerhun would be the parish of choice as the supposed Emma stated she was born there on the 1841 and 1851 censuses.  I've not been able to find anything online for them as yet (IGI, FreeReg, Ancestry, Findmypast etc).  This is great fun ....