Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)

[AJ]

Thank you all for all your hard work, I think i have to agree with Hugo, I think looking at the wedding dates it would be impossible to link Elizabeth with Miriam. My Nain may have been referring to the pink cottage when she said she sold teas on the Orme, Elizabeth may have just worked there and the story has become confused over the years.  Unfortunately, My Nain passed in 1980 and Annie and John Jones' other daughters died years ago so it's a difficult line to follow.  Thank you all so much for your help it has been so exciting

[Hugo]

AJ,  it is difficult finding the link to Isaac and Miriam but when stories are passed down in the family there is usually no paper trail to follow.
In those old days when parents had children they would give them family names from their parents or siblings and that's why there are so many John Jones' and Robert Jones' but one name interested me;-
Helig has done a great deal of research and I've been having a look through all the postings and one name stands out.  The spelling is different but in those old days a lot of people couldn't read or write.   Have a look at the info below and see what you think.

Pg 8 25th Aug 2023 in the 1871 Census Isaac and Miriam have a daughter Kauturah aged 9   born C 1862

Pg 13 17th Nov 2023  in the 1851 Census for Miriam Owen there is a Katurah Owen aged 5 born C 1846

It may be the connection to Isaac and Miriam but see what you or anyone else thinks

[Hugo]

OOPS  I've done a typo error.     

The name at Pg 13 should be Keturah Owen and she appears to be Miriam's niece

[Hugo]

After thinking about it I don't think that the link is Keturah but I'll try and see what I can find in the Conwy Archives next week

[Helig]

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. One thing that has struck me is the frequency of the places of Llangelynin, Gyffin and Rowen appearing in the searches. Miriam Owen(s) stated she came from Llangelynin and Gyffin depending on which census you see. Many of these other families had strong connections to these places too. I wonder whether a search of the parish registers might help and make us able to link people up. One problem will be the fact that there were many non conformist chapels in these areas. Most of their registers have been lost, so there is no hope of finding people this way.

I have noticed a similarity in the names of children in some of the families. Isaac and Miriam Jones used quite unusual names for their children at times. These seem to appear in some of the other families which may indicate a connection. It is a pity that there isn't a definitive family tree for Isaac and Miriam Jones. It is about time someone did this as they are such a prominent couple in the history of Llandudno.

[Hugo]

Helig,  the Census records are just a guide but I've seen that happen before when the person has a different address.   Local knowledge comes in handy sometimes but Cambrian is the expert on Parishes etc
It seems that the link may be in those areas but where?

I can't find a definite family tree for Isaac and Miriam but it would have been very handy indeed.   What I have just done is to use Free Reg as a search engine and put in these details  Surname Jones dates 1859 to 1871,   Caernarfonshire then Llandudno and finally Baptisms
82  Baptism records came up and I must admit to packing up on the 31st search and just doing a few random ones after.   However I did find about 4 for Isaac and Miriam  Rebecca, John, Keturah and Isaac.    I'm sure that there will be others too

Also two Baptisms that interested me were both on the 24th December 1860 for Isaac Robert and Catherine Mary Jones  the father was Isaac Jones and the mother was Mary Jones.      No proof whatsoever but is this the Isaac we are looking for,  are these children the first set of twins and did Mary die soon after because Isaac married Miriam in 1861?       Food for thought?

[Hugo]

I had a look at the rest of the Baptisms and found two on the 23rd September 1867.    One was for Martha and the other was for Mary. The parents were Isaac and Miriam Jones
Could these two be the second pair of twins?

Another one I found was on the 6th May 1865 and was for Ann Ellen and her parents were Isaac Jones and Mary
Now from my last posting and comments about Mary, this confirms that she was still alive and had children with Isaac Jones
What we don't know is, is this the same Isaac we are looking for?
The records I looked at don't show their address or Mary's surname and the only way to solve it is if the original Baptism record shows those details.
At the moment it's a mystery, what was going on then?

[Cambrian]

From memory, Anglican baptism registers do not usually record the mother's maiden name unless the child was "illegitimate" and only the mother registered, or the child was born of unwedded parents in which case both were entered.  Not sure what the practice was in other denominations.

[Helig]

There is one matter which disagrees with your theory about Isaac Jones being married  before he married Miriam, that is he states he is a bachelor on the marriage certificate in 1861. He married Miriam showing that, plus he was a Fisherman living in Gogarth Wydfyd. His father was Hugh Jones, sawyer.

I agree that having been born c1808-1813, Isaac was likely to have been married before but cannot find anything for him such as an earlier marriage.

I seem to remember that when I was searching for Isaac, there was another Isaac Jones around at that time, that is unless he lead a double life.

The whole situation with Isaac and Miriam needs quite a bit of research to establish the facts surrounding them. I am surprised a local historian hasn't done a study of them.

Re the church records, it varies from church to church. I have seen the mother's maiden name entered in the baptism register in some places. Some of my ancestors from Ysceifiog, who are in the baptism records there, have the mother's maiden name, plus her parents' names and where she originated from entered in the record. That was back in the 18th century. It makes it so much easier for genealogy many years later.

[Hugo]

You're spot on Helig, there were two Isaac Jones' in Llandudno according to the 1861 Census.    The second Isaac married Mary Jones in Bangor on the 10th Jan 1844 and in the 1861 Census they had two children, Mary who was born in Conway and Isaac RobT  who was born in Liverpool.     They and their other children can be ruled out of the search

[mull]

I have been following this search for several months now and am interested in the locations mentioned around Rowen, Llangelynin and Llangernyw area and interesting names being thrown up.

In early 2019 you all kindly did a lot of research, on this site into my Nain's origins, Catherine Jane Williams born 25 Oct1883. Heading was her parents,  Robert Williams/ Sarah Ellen Evans, married17 Jan 1880 in Conway.

I am sure being an area like this they must have have all lived close to each other.

[Helig]

Yes, I am sure they were related in some way as these were small villages and close communities. It would be good to do a place search of the census returns for a couple of years, say 1851, 1861. This might throw up some clues about the families around those places at that time. I might tackle this but not right now.

[Hugo]

I came across these old prints today and the first one appears to be the Marine Drive in West Shore and the Gogarth Tea rooms is in the foreground.    I don't know the date of the photo but it was prior to those large houses being built nearby.
On the hillside is another old cottage and it may be the one that is still there at the top of Pen Y Ffordd Goch

The second print is Gogarth Tea rooms  looking at it from the West Shore side and that lady in the doorway must be Miriam Jones

[Hugo]

I was looking online at Free Cen for 1861 and I saw a Census record that had a Robert Williams with a daughter Elizabeth then aged 8 together with Robert's wife Ellen and their four other children
I have no proof whatsoever that this is the Elizabeth that married Robert Jones in 1877.     Her age fits but her father's occupation was listed as a sawyer.
What I was interested in was their address Ty Hen, it must have been in Llandudno but I have never heard of it before.    I read Chris Draper's book and he said that originally there were two properties at the old windmill above Nant Y Gamar.   Felin Wynt being one but he didn't mention what the other one was called.
Cambrian, I know that you are good on this type of research, have you any idea where Ty Hen once was?

[Cambrian]

Evening Hugo.

Yes, managed to find Ty Hen.  It was on the lane leading from Penrhyn Hill towards the old quarries on the Little Orme.  The site was on the right hand side about half way to Pentre Isaf.

Oddly this area was in the parish of Llandudno as presumably Mostyn wanted to keep some control over the mineral potential.