Author Topic: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)  (Read 45785 times)

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Offline Helig

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2023, 11:27:41 am »
There is a marriage of William Owens to Elinor Hughes in Dwygyfylchi on 10/09/1814. William was a bachelor and Elinor a spinster. Both of this parish.

One tree on Ancestry has Isaac Jones and Miriam with 12 chiklren.

It is going to be hard to link this family to that of AJ.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #196 on: November 18, 2023, 12:56:40 pm »
It will be difficult as you say Helig but the link could be established when we see Robert Jones' Baptism or marriage records.    I've seen a Baptism for a Robert Jones on 25th Sept 1853, father Isaac Jones occupation sailor and mother Jane Jones.   The Baptism was at St Hilary's Church Llanrhos and they lived at Towyn  ( Should be Tywyn? )
The couple were married in Wrexham on the 23rd  February 1850.   I cannot trace Jane Jones' death simply because there are so many Jane Jones' in Wales
It could all be a red herring but we'll have to wait and see


Offline Cambrian

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #197 on: November 18, 2023, 01:29:09 pm »
My best guess is that if Rowen is Robert's place of birth, the ecclesiastical parish would be Caerhun.  However, some of the extremities of the geographical area of "Rowen" may well be in other adjacent parishes.  I have found this to be an issue in many rural areas where boundaries follow vague lines (eg field boundaries) rather than be based on defined settlements.  People in some cases used the nearest hamlet or village name rather than the parish name as their address.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #198 on: November 18, 2023, 04:52:02 pm »
That's correct Cambrian and it's what makes this search both difficult but interesting.     If we can find Robert's Baptism record it may give us the answer that AJ is looking for.
On a separate matter you mentioned Llangelynin previously and I went to both the old and new Church some years ago.   The new Church is privately owned but people can visit family graves there.   I had a nice chat with the owner of the new Church and also had a look inside it..   It's built in the Parish of Llangelynin and I asked him if he knew why it was built in that particular area and his understanding was that the village of Rowen was expected to  expand down the valley to the church but of course that never happened

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #199 on: November 30, 2023, 03:02:55 pm »
I've been making a lot of searches on free sites but nothing I could find gave me the proof about the Rowen and Llandudno connections so I sent off for the marriage certificate of Robert Jones and Elizabeth Williams and it arrived today:-

The marriage took place on the 22nd September 1977  Robert Jones was aged 23 and his father was John Jones.     Robert was living at Ffrith Y Ddwyfrwd   Rowen  Caerhun
Now  that address is above Rowen and just off the old Roman Road.    As Cambrian has said it is abutting Llangelynin and may or may not at one time been in the Parish of Llangelynin

Elizabeth Williams was aged 24 when she married and her father was Robert Williams a farmer.   Her address was Penrhyn Felin Wynt Eglwysrhos.    I can't be certain of that location but in English Felin Wynt means wind mill.    Now there are two windmills that I know are in the old Parish of Eglwysrhos and they are the one in Glanwyddan and the other  near Penrhynside and that sometimes is called the Hen Dwr
It doesn't confirm AJ's connection with Isac and Miriam but it could be just one step away from it

http://images.portalimages.com/12291/24876053/brochure/s1/635440646940297382/36dbd780aacb5d55537b01e10e7dbb2f8ba2268e.pdf


https://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=12098

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #200 on: November 30, 2023, 06:26:18 pm »
Hugo - just to say that Felin Wynt Eglwysrhos would seem to be Hen Dwr above Penrhynside.  The one in Glanwydden was in Llangwstennin Parish. Having said that, the Eglwysrhos one was actually just inside the boundary of Llandudno Parish!
One puzzle though is that Ken Dibble's book does not record any family called Williams at Hen Dwr at the relevant period.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #201 on: December 01, 2023, 10:28:09 am »
Thanks very much for your comments Cambrian, I had forgotten that Glanwydden was in the Llangwstennin Parish.   So Penrhyn Felin Wynt   AKA  Yr Hen Dwr must be the correct address for Elizabeth Williams and her father Robert   
I can't say anything about Ken Dibbles book but we must accept Penrhyn Felin Wynt as being their abode in 1877.     Just as an add on there was an old Mill House attached to the tower but this was demolished when the tower was renovated

In the Gloddaeth Estate rent books there are two entries for a Robert Williams but they are for two other smallholdings.   The Census' for 1871 and 1881 may just confirm what we already know.     I was surprised when you said that Hen Dwr was in the old Llandudno Parish as the last Parish stone I have seen was in the northern section of Bodafon Street just about 100 yards from the promenade and I thought that the whole of Craig Y Don was in Eglwysrhos

Just recapping on what we have found so far, now that we have found John Jones and his wife at Rowen and Robert Williams and his wife at Penrhyn Felin Wynt you would think that the next generation must be Isaac or Miriam to complete AJ's search
I don't know what you or others think but in my humble opinion because of the estimated ages of John Jones and Robert Williams  Miriam cannot be the mother of any of them

This means that Isaac must be the connection and we can therefore rule out Robert Williams because of his surname so that leaves just John and the two so far unnamed wives.    Has anyone got any ideas on this?

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #202 on: December 01, 2023, 04:18:40 pm »
Hugo, I take your point re boundary.  For some reason - possibly Mostyn influence - there is an odd narrow strip of Llandudno Parish which extends along the seafront to link with an almost detached portion of that parish around Bodafon/Nantygamar and Little Orme.

Not sure if you recall in the 1970s, there were two of the boundary stones set together at right-angles at the edge of the grass bed opposite the Marine Hotel.  Some bright spark in Aberconwy BC destroyed one for no good reason but fortunately the other was saved and as far as I know is still there.  The right angle of the stones indicated the route of the boundary of the parishes along the sea front.  Town side was Eglwysrhos but the seaward site was Llandudno! This all goes to explain why Mostyn have their involvement with Bodafon fields etc and were lessors of the Little Orme Quarry. What is now Craig y Don was part of the Peers Williams holding which was from Clarence Road to Nant y Gamar Road.  General Peers Williams lived in a house called "Craig y Don" near Beaumaris hence the origin of the name in Llandudno.  Sorry I have wondered from the topic a bit!

Checked Census for 1871 and shows a family called Evans in the "Old Windmill" which seems to confirm what is in Dibble's book.

Offline Helig

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #203 on: December 01, 2023, 04:29:41 pm »
Thank you Hugo for going to all this trouble in the quest to find a family connection with Isaac and Miriam Jones. I have found what appears to be the right family for John Jones in the 1861 census. They are living in Llangelynin at Ffrith y Ddwyfrwd. The last word is quite hard to decipher in the census.

John Jones is aged 36 and born Caerhun. His wife, Ann, is aged 34 and born Caerhun. They have 5 children including Robert, age 7.

I think there is a tree for this family on Ancestry. I will look again as I am pressed for time now. Could it be that one of the children married into Isaac Jones's family?

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #204 on: December 01, 2023, 07:18:15 pm »
Thanks Cambrian for sharing all that information with the forum.     I've lived in the area all my life and never knew where the Parish boundary was.    As a result of what you have said I found a link and it's posted below.    It shows the Llandudno boundary as you have described and the boundary is really weird, Lord Mostyn was a sly old devil.
You can also enlarge the map to see more detail but I can't make out Yr Hen Dwr on it.    I don't remember those parish boundary stones opposite the Marine Hotel but now I'll go and have a look for then when I am able to


https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandudno

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #205 on: December 01, 2023, 07:37:42 pm »
You're welcome Helig and thank you for all your hard work helping AJ out, it was thanks to your efforts that I was able to get the certificates.    It still leaves more questions than answers because I think that it rules out John or  Ann Jones as being the children of Isaac or Miriam.
At the moment it only leaves Robert Williams' wife as a possibility but we'll have to wait and see what develops next.   Watch this space as they say!

Offline Helig

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #206 on: December 02, 2023, 10:25:49 am »
There is a marriage for John Jones in Caerhun on 27 January 1849. The details are:

John Jones, full age, labourer, bachelor, abode  Roe, father Robert Jones, labourer.
Ann Thomas, full age, spinster, abode Roe, father Hugh Thomas, labourer.

Witnesses were@ David Jones and David Parry. Bride and groom made their mark.

The family I found in the 1861 census in Llangelynin, included Robert Jones, Lodger, widower (?) age 83, formerly ag lab, born Dwygyfylchi.

It appears that this Robert Jones was the father of John Jones b 1825.

In the 1871 census John and Anne Jones are living at the same address in Llangelynin. This time Anne is shown as being born in Gyffin.

In the 1881 census John and Anne Jones are living in Pant yr Afon in Caerhun. Anne is shown as born Gyffin there too.

1891 census has them in Rowen, living in Ty Hen and once again, Anne is shown as born Gyffin. They remain there in the 1901 census.

There are Family Trees for them on Ancestry. One of them has John Jones death in 9 July 1905 in Ty Hen, Rowen. Both John and Ann Jones were buried in Llangelynin cemetery.

Robert Jones b1779 was buried in Caerhun on 10 February 1863, age 83 and his abode was Ffridd Y Ddwyffrwd.

I don't know which direction to head in next. Would someone like to suggest something?

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #207 on: December 02, 2023, 02:44:40 pm »
Hugo - if you have a look at the 19th C Mapsnls for the area, the boundary runs a few yards SE of the Old Tower.  It also seems to pass through the middle of Penyffordd Farmhouse!

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #208 on: December 02, 2023, 03:24:17 pm »
Thanks Cambria, I'll have a look at that map as soon as I can

Helig, you have found so much info it's time to have a break and digest all the info.   Local knowledge also comes in handy and although Anne Thomas has Gyffin as her birth place in a couple of those Census' it might just refer to the Parish of Gyffin which covered a large area in those old days
Because of the details you found I put some info in to a Baptism free search and came up with the details below:-
Now that's no proof that she's the Anne that you found but it's just food for thought
Field
(only fields with a value are shown)   Value
County   Caernarfonshire
Place (Links to more information)   Gyffin
Church name (Links to more information)   St Benedict
Register type (Links to more information)   Parish Register
Baptism date   01 Jul 1783
Person forename   Anne
Person sex   F
Father forename   Robert
Mother forename   Catherine
Father surname   THOMAS
Mother surname   JONES
Transcribed by   John Roberts
File line number   401
Report an Error in this Data

Offline Hugo

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Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
« Reply #209 on: December 02, 2023, 03:42:00 pm »
I just had a thought about Pant Yr afon in the 1881 Census and although it said Caerhun  I remembered seeing a property called Pant Yr Afon in Rowen.    Have a search for it in this link and it looks like a really nice property.   I wonder if this is the house they lived in


http://www.iwanmwilliams.info/images/properties/LL1494.Pant%20yr%20Afon.pdf