Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.

[Hugo]

Helig,   I've had another look under FreeREG and found all the Baptism records that you have found and listed but what I couldn't find is the Baptism record for John Williams on the 16th April 1808
However when I tried the name John Thomas the one I found appeared, so I'm back to square one.   i'll get the Marriage Register copied when I next go to the Archives

Helig, regarding your last post, it could well be the same person but I'll have to have more searches in the Archives before I can say whether it is the same person.   It's getting a bit complicated with the surnames

[Hugo]

Helig, I've just had an e-mail from British History online and they have sorted out the problem regarding the maps.   If you want to see Llangelynin then you must put Henryd in and then click on the link
I've just seen Tu Hwnt i'r Ffrwd  which was Jane Roberts' home and if you put Caerhun in the the map will include Caerhun, Llanbedr Y Cennin and Rowen and Ty'n Y Groes

[Hugo]

I have found John Williams and family in the 1841 census. HO107/1393/9 Llangelynin, District 6 page 9.
They are living in Groes Ynyd in Llangelynin.

John Williams, age 35, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Jane Williams, age 30, born in same county.
Mary Williams, age 4 months, born in same county.

They are living quite close to John and Mary Roberts and their family, plus Edward Williams.

Helig.

I found Groes Ynyd on the map of Henryd ( it includes Llangelynin ) and it's a pub, in actual fact it's the Groes Inn at Tyn Y Groes

[Helig]

Mornin Hugo,

I have looked at the maps on British History Online and found the one for Llangelynin. I could see Groes Ynyd on it. I remember the Tyn y Groes Inn, so know whereabouts they lived.

I noticed that there was another non conformist chapel there. The one in Henrhyd is marked clearly. There is also a Methodist Chapel, marked Calvinistic, to the north of it. I don't recall seeing that on Genuki.

I found Tu Hwnt i'r Ffrwd as well. It is close to St Celynin's church.

I will do a search on Caerhun. This is a place I have always loved and used to visit frequently. I gather Caerhun Hall is now quite s wish hotel. I think it used to be a training centre, something to do with accountancy.

Helig.

[Hugo]

I have found an interesting entry in the 1841 census for Bryn Gwenith, Caerhun. The household is as follows;

William Thomas, male, Head, age 55 (born c1786), born in same county.
Ellin Thomas, female, age 40 (born c1801), born in same county.
Jane Thomas, female, age 10 (born c1831) born in same county.
William Owen, male age 15 (orn c1826) born in same county.

Do you think this could be the family of John Williams?

I know that the wife of William Thomas was shown as Jane in 1808, could he have remarried?

This was on Find my Past.

Helig.

I found this entry on Free Reg but of course it is not proof of anything, this finding does not show William as a widower or where he lived.   Perhaps the Marriage Register will fill in the blanks?

Field
(only fields with a value are shown)   Value
County   Caernarfonshire
Place   Llangelynnin
Church name   St Celynin
Register type   Parish Register
Marriage date   20 Feb 1824
Groom forename   William
Groom surname   WILLIAMS
Bride forename   Ellin
Bride surname   PARRY
Bride parish   Llangelynin
Transcribed by   Glen Jenkins
File line number   32

[Hugo]

This is the only death for a Jane Thomas that fits in with the dates to match the 1841 Census.   It's only speculation on my part with nothing to prove it one way or the other
Perhaps the Llangelynnin Burial Register may fill in the missing bits

Field
(only fields with a value are shown)   Value
County   Caernarfonshire
Place   Llanbedrycennin
Church name   St Peter
Register type   Parish Register
Register entry number   98
Burial date   03 Dec 1821
Burial person forename   Jane
Burial person surname   THOMAS
Person age   28
Burial person abode   Hafodgorwen, Caerhun
Transcribed by   Jeffrey Bounds
Credit   Jeff Bounds
File line number   98

[Hugo]

:-
Firstly  John Williams was not illegitimate.    It would have stated that in his Baptism record.   His father was William Thomas who was married to Jane and this is shown in his Baptism record of 16th April 1808.  Their abode was Parkhill but I expect that our interpretation of the address is incorrect

I've had a look at the map again and the abode Parkhill is incorrect and should be Parciau which is in Rowen near the Congregational Chapel
When we looked at the original entry in the Register the first part of the word was legible ie  Park but that obviously was an error as there is no letter K in the Welsh alphabet.  The rest of the word was impossible to read but Parciau is the place

[Hugo]

It's only an observation but I've looked again  at the Census records posted on here for 1851 posted by Rhuddlan on 24th Feb 2019 and Helig on the same date and they show 5 young children with John  & Jane Williams with various ages from 1 to 10
 
The 1961 Census shows the family living at Tai Newydd Is Yr Afon but it only has entries for the following;-
John Williams    age 52
Jane    ditto             50
Robert   ditto              6       ( born C1855 )

Has anyone any ideas on what happened to the missing 5 young children shown on the 1851 Census?

That address in 1861 Tai Newydd Is Yr Afon was also the address for William Williams in 1861.     Tai ( meaning houses in English)  would suggest a terrace of cottages so both families would be close neighbours

[Hugo]

I think that I've found the answer by going on FreeCEN.      The children must have left home and are living and working elsewhere.

Take the case of William Williams then aged 1 in the 1851 Census but in the 1861 Census he is only aged 11 but is working for a farmer called Hugh Jones at Ty Hwnt i'r Gors is Yr Afon in the Parish of Caerhun
Life must have been tough there in those old days

WILLIAMS William    Servnt   Unmarried    Male    age 11  CAE      Parish Caerhun 

[Hugo]

I have seen some entries for the non conformist chapel in Henryd Congregational Chapel that is mentioned on the Genuki page for Llangelynin. I am not sure what records exist for this place. Is it possible to enquire next time you are in the archives please, Hugo? The children of John and Jane Williams appear to have been baptised there.

Helig.

I did ask when I went to the Archives yesterday and they had no specific Baptism records for the Henryd Congregational Chapel although I did find a burial Index for it and there were only 16 burials in it
 I was told that there were various assortments of records and the only one that seemed appropriate was this one
Chapel Baptisms
RG4/4468         1804 -- 1837
Which is the Baptism Register for children born Llanfaifechan, Gyffin,  Llangelynin and Caerhum
I didn't look at the records but if you want anything specific for me to look at then I'll do that on my next visit there.

Helig, on your post of the 28th Feb 2019 you mentioned William Thomas and asked the question could he have remarried as you found in the 1841 William Thomas was married to Ellin Thomas but in 1808 his wife was called Jane.
Beforehand I did find a burial record for Jane Thomas who was buried on 3rd December 1821 at Llanbedr Y Cennin and she had lived at Hafodgorwen  Caerhun.       Unfortunately when I looked at the Burial Index in the Archives I could not find the burial for her.  The index only records graves with headstones.

However I did look at the Llangelynnin Marriage Register and there was an entry there that fitted with  what you think may have happened the details are
No 33    on 20th February 1824 the wedding was between
William Thomas of the Parish of Llangelynin
and
Ellen Parry         of the same Parish
The witness was Robert Roberts
Unfortunately the entry did not say if William was a widower or not.    Other entries in the register did say whether the bride and groom were spinsters or bachelors so it may have been omitted out of respect for William but that's only a guess

[Helig]

Hello Hugo,

Thank you for checking things in the archives.

I wonder if you could enquire about chapel records after 1837. The children of John Williams were born 1839 onwards and it would be interesting to see if their baptisms are in the non conformist chapel.

It hadn't occurred to me about the other children of John Williams in census returns after 1851. I know that Edward was working elsewhere in Llechan in the 1861 but I cannot trace him in the 1851.

It is difficult to say whether the marriage of William Thomas to Ellin Parry is the same William Thomas, father of John Williams. It looks to be a strong possibility it is him but in the absence of more information on the parish records, it is impossible to be certain.

Helig.

[Helig]

I think I have found Edward Williams in the 1851 after a place search of the census in Llangelynin.

The household is as follows;

Mary Roberts, Head, widow, age 75, Farmer 14 acres, born Llangelynin.
Mary Roberts, Daughter, age 37, unmarried, Farmer's daughter, born Gyffin.
Edward Roberts, son, age 40, Unmarried, Farmer's Son, born Gyffin.
Edward Roberts, grandson, age 11, born Llangelynin.

On the census itself the children have "ditto" under their surnames. This is the same Mary Roberts, wife of John Roberts, as they are living in the same place as the 1841 census. This is called Pwllyrnoch (I think it is as the writing is hard to decipher.)

I wonder whether Edward was illegitimate. He was born in 1839, the same year as John Williams and Jane Roberts married.

Helig.

[Hugo]

I did check on anything after 1837 but could find nothing.      Strangely though when I looked at the Llangelynnin Baptism Register there were two entries that may have been for John and Jane's children and the details are:-
No 213     24th November 1844
John    son of John & Jane Williams
Gelli   Parish of Llanbedr
No 254       3rd March 1850
William son of John and Jane Williams
Pen Y Gadair    Parish of Caerhun

As the family moved from one place to another the Baptisms could have been carried out in a different Parish


In the 1851 Census it would appear that the children have all left home and even William who was only 11 was living and working elsewhere locally

In the Census of 1851 that you have found all the surnames are Roberts so we cannot be certain that the Edward Roberts Grandson born in Llangelynin is actually Edward Williams.    That's the frustrating part of Census records that they are not always accurate

[Helig]

Morning Hugo,

That looks to be a good find. The dates fit in with the ages of the children in the 1851 census. John Williams was shown as age 6 and born Llanbedr, William Williams was age 1 and born Caerhun. See my post of 24 February 2019.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Thanks Helig,   I've just noticed that part of my last posting viz  " In the 1851 Census it would appear that the children have all left home and even William who was only 11 was living and working elsewhere locally"
This should of course be the 1961 Census

I had a look at the Burial Index for the children and couldn't find a record of their death prior to 1861 so after checking William out and finding out that he was living and working elsewhere at the tender age of 11,   I can only assume that the others were also living and working elsewhere

In the records I have looked at already the surname Williams has cropped up in a number of places within the Parishes of Caerhun and Llangelynin so it is a possibility that they are all related in some way but then the problem of course is linking them together.

The weather has been bad here so I've spent a bit of time on FreeREG  but couldn't find any Baptism record for Edward Williams in the Caerhun & Llangelynin are but there was one in 1838 at St Benedicts in Gyffin.       The Parish of Gyffin I think bordered Llangelynin so there could be a connection there although the is no evidence to prove it
I've also had a look at my own family on FreeREG  and found my G G Grandfather so it's a good site to use and best of all it's completely free

Going back to the DNA that you had an interest in,  I often get e-mails from My Heritage giving links to me and this week alone I've been told about two possible relations in the USA.      I've not followed any up because I was only curious about my own DNA background