The Welsh Assembly

[Merddin Emrys]

So I shall vote NO.    Just to annoy Dave and cancel his vote out.

Then I'll ask my wife to do likewise,  just to annoy DWSI.     L0L L0L L0L

yes but you've forgotten that me and er indoors will vote yes, which will cancel your two votes
meaning that Dave and Dwsi's votes will count  D) 
The conclusion of that is that the 4 of us might as well not bother voting and go for a drink instead  ZXZ
Is'nt democracy a wonderful thing 

[Ian]

The Tudors were of Welsh decent Ian........but I expect you actually knew this all alon

 :twoface:

How well you're getting to know me...


 

[DaveR]

The Druid gives his thoughts on the Referendum tomorrow...

I will be voting 'yes' for four main reasons:

1) No matter which party (or parties) are in power in Westminster, UK-wide one-size-fits-all legislation will by definition not be equally optimum for all parts of the United Kingdom. Accordingly the Welsh Assembly is the ideal vehicle for developing and implementing differentiated policies which are specific to the needs of Wales alone. The referendum on March 3rd merely allows for the Assembly to be able to pass laws in the areas it already has competence quicker.

2) I fully subscribe to the principle that laws which exclusively apply to one region are decided exclusively within that region. During the previous Labour administration in Westminster we all became accustomed to the sight of legislation which exclusively affected England (and in some cases England and Wales) only being passed due to the support of Scottish Labour MPs representing constituencies which would be entirely unaffected by said legislation. Known as the West Lothian Question, it remains a constitutional abomination. Although the situation whereby Measures passed in the Assembly are scrutinised by MPs and Peers in Westminster is not a direct parallel to the West Lothian Question, the principle of those unaffected by the law in question being removed entirely from the lawmaking process is sound.

3) A yes vote on Thursday will merely put Wales on almost equal footing with the other devolved governments in Scotland and Northern Ireland, which already do not need to have their laws scrutinised by Westminster. As a proud Welshman I personally have never seen any good reason why Wales should be treated any differently from Scotland or Northern Ireland.

4) I instinctively believe in Localism. Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy. This, for example, is why I am so keen to preserve the integrity of Anglesey County Council and not see it submerged within a Greater Gwynedd.

[Ian]

I instinctively believe in Localism. Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy. This, for example, is why I am so keen to preserve the integrity of Anglesey County Council and not see it submerged within a Greater Gwynedd.

And, curiously, that's the very thing that worries me. I don't see devolution or devolved governments as being 'good things'. I see wars throughout history, massacres, genocide and barbarism being committed always in the name of only two things: religion and language.  As a Welsh person, you're no different from a Swedish person, or a German person , or a Russian person, ad infinitum.  We're all members of the human race and that which unites us is far, far stronger than that which divides us,  yet getting us to think, act and take decisions as a single species seems to be impossible, because of the myriad tiny nationalisms we have. 

Lest we forget the worst wars in history were started because one group wanted more of what other groups already had. We think that's in the past, and it couldn't happen again. But it is.  The Serbian issues were comparatively recently, and it's not that long ago that the Irish were shooting, bombing and slaughtering each other and those they perceived as 'oppressors'.

Where does it end? If we say "Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy." what size is the eventual political unit?   Is it a county? A town? A village? A single street?

As people we're stronger together than factionalized, yet we seem hell-bent on propagating the mythical uniqueness of every tiny group no matter how small.

On top of all that, of course, is the cost. Every time we add yet another layer of bureaucracy, in the form of Assemblies, County councils, Town councils, community councils - they have to be financed, and that money can only come from one group of taxpayers: us.

[Merddin Emrys]

is that a 'no' then?

we still have had no 'blue booklet' through the letterbox and the vote is tomorrow, currently I'm just slightly in the yes camp, any other opinions, anyone? is any doom forcast either way?

[Fester]

Everyone is correct in their own way...because human nature can't be ignored or fully suppressed.

There has been much talk of Britain being a successful mulicultural society for the last 20 years.
But in reality, that is just a facade. A facade that remained intact whilst the economy was relatively strong.
But as soon as resource starts becoming scarce, then people turn and point at each other....'he's got more than me''  and its always because said person is Jewish, Indian, Muslim, Chinese... or whatever 'he' happens to be.
Recently, the German Chancellor Angela Merkel has announced, ''the multicultural society is dead''

In reality, there is no such thing as a multicultural society.  The human race is just not ready for it.
Place a group of Catholic families in a Protestant area of Belfast....they will not get on.
Place a group of Liverpool fans into a Manchester housing estate, they will not get on.

They never have, they never will,   its just the way it is.... sadly.

Vote NO, or vote YES....there will still be a raft of beaurocrats getting rich at your expense.
Your life will not change at all.

[DaveR]

Where does it end? If we say "Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy." what size is the eventual political unit?   Is it a county? A town? A village? A single street?

We can only look at what has happened locally. Llandudno's best years were when it was run by the Urban District Council. When that was replaced by first the larger Aberconway area, and then the far larger Conwy Council, the standard of services has undoubtedly declined. Without local control, the people in charge, not to mention the staff, just don't care as much.

Why should English MPs care about what happens in Wales - I wouldn't expect them to, and that's why they should play no role in Welsh decision making.

[Fester]

Let them spend a couple of weekends in Llandudno, then they'll care.....!

Llandudno gets you that way!   

[Quiggs]

I'm inclined to agree with Dave, My father served with LLUDC. as a councillor, and as far as I can recollect, was not paid for his services but could claim expenses, which did not cover his loss of earnings from his employment. Once they got paid for their their involvement things seem to change. !

[Fester]

Thats as may be.... but believe you me, a YES vote on Thursday will not move things one inch back towards that happy time.

In fact the referendum is largely a waste of time and money.
Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.

[Trojan]

Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.

Rubbish Fester, I'm voting for Pedro.

[DaveR]

Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.

You didn't until I told you!    L0L

[Ian]

Llandudno's best years were when it was run by the Urban District Council. When that was replaced by first the larger Aberconwy area, and then the far larger Conwy Council, the standard of services has undoubtedly declined. Without local control, the people in charge, not to mention the staff, just don't care as much.

But they were also the years when local tourism was thriving, people were still coming to Llandudno for one week and two week holidays and the world didn't have satellite TV, cell phones or personal computers. But the changes came after 1974, the Miners' strikes and the winter of discontent, when foreign travel became affordable, house prices began to rise rapidly and the economy generally, picked up.

I agree that local, unpaid councillors probably did the job to the best of their ability, and it was an arrangement which had the benefit that they could be dealt with, directly and easily. But as things became more difficult, would these same people have been able to cope as well?

My experience of local authorities in general is that I'd hesitate to trust any of them with anything more than filling in the odd pothole. As Fester says, people are people, and you'll inevitably get the same scroungers, work-shy, agenda-driven rascals in any elected office.  However, people being people, the most able will also seek the highest positions that afford the most power, and that usually means they'll head towards parliament, eventually, which is why I have greater confidence in MPs than local councillors.  Unfortunately, the same cannot always be said of non-elected officials, and I suspect that's where a lot of problems originate.

[Fester]

Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.

You didn't until I told you!    L0L

Ha ha..correct...but you didn't know how to tie your laces, until someone told you!   Thats how life works!

[DaveR]

Looks like there could be a clean sweep of YES votes across North Wales, and possibly across the whole of Wales. Even the most anglicised county, Wrexham, voted decisively in favour of law making powers for the Welsh Assembly.

1519 NATIONAL RESULT Wales votes Yes. Yes: 517,132. No: 297,380

1517 RESULT Cardiff votes Yes. Yes: 53,427. No: 33,606
1434 RESULT Gwynedd votes Yes. Yes: 28,200. No: 8,891. Achieved on a comparatively healthy 43% turnout.
1424 RESULT Monmouthshire votes No. Yes: 12,381. No: 12,701.
1418 RESULT Rhondda Cynon Taf votes Yes. Yes: 43,051. No: 17,834.
1407 RESULT Ceredigion votes Yes. Yes: 16,505. No: 8,412
1403 RESULT Bridgend votes Yes. Yes: 25,063. No: 11,736. A thumping majority for the Yes camp in Bridgend.
1400 RESULT Torfaen votes Yes. Yes: 14,655. No: 8,688. Torfaen voted No - just - with a 50.2% majority in 1997.
1354 RESULT Flintshire votes Yes: 21,119. No: 12,913 - that is a whopping 24% swing towards Yes since 1997.
1350 RESULT Vale of Glamorgan votes Yes. Yes: 19,430. No: 17,551
1345 RESULT Caerphilly votes Yes. Yes: 28,431. No: 15,751
1333 RESULT Neath Port Talbot votes Yes. Yes: 29,959. No 11,079 - a 7% swing to Yes since the 1997 referendum
1331 RESULT Merthyr Tydfil votes Yes. Yes: 9,137. No: 4,132.
1326 RESULT Powys votes Yes. Yes: 21,072. No 19,730 - that's a 9% swing to Yes since 1997.
1323 RESULT Swansea votes Yes. Yes: 38,496. No: 22,409.
1315 RESULT Pembrokeshire votes Yes. Yes votes: 19,600. No votes: 16,050
1315 RESULT Conwy votes Yes. Yes votes: 18,368. No votes: 12,390
1315 RESULT Newport votes Yes. Yes votes: 15,983. No votes: 13,204
1309 RESULT Ynys Mon/Anglesey votes Yes. Yes: 14,011. No: 7,620
1237 RESULT Wrexham votes Yes. No: 9,863. Yes 17,606
1159 RESULT Denbighshire votes Yes. No: 9,742. Yes: 15,793.
1150 RESULT Blaenau Gwent votes Yes. No: 5,366. Yes: 11,869.

Results are coming in here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/9413995.stm