Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961

[Hugo]

That 1911 Census is still a mystery Helig,  I can't find it in the records I've seen that were centred just on Anglesey.    I wonder if they are on an English Census record for Lancashire?
It does seem that there were no sisters, just the 5 brothers for John Jnr so it's probable that the witness to the marriage Rosetta Jones is Grace Ellen's  sister and could be Mull's Aunty Rose

[Helig]

I wonder if they may have had more children and they died. There are some gaps in between the births and it is unusual not to have a girl. The 1911 census would give us more information on tjis if only we could find them! 

I think I have found Alfred and Eliazer in the 1911. They are living in 15 Houlson St, Pen y Wern, Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil. The household comprises:

Alfred Jones, head, age 22, married (1 year) Collier Haulier, Welsh nationality, born Anglesey.
Margaret Jones, wife age 21, House keeping, born Dowlais, Glamorgan. Welsh nationality.
Elizear Jones, brother, single, age 20, Collier, assistant repairer, Welsh nationality, born Anglesey.

Helig.

[Helig]

This could be Zachariah Jones in the 1911 census:

Boscawen, Llangystenin, Conwy.

Jane Jones, Head, widow, age 69, born Conwy.
Mary Ann Jones, daughter, age 27, married (2 years), born Llangystenin.
Zachariah Jones, son in law, age 32, married, General Labourer, born Anglesey.
Evan Edward Jones, son, age 4 months, born Llangystenin.

There is a Civil Marriage registered in Conwy in 1909 for Zachariah Jones and Mary Jane Jones.

Helig.

[Helig]

There is a death registered in 1963 Conwy Registration District for Zachariah Jones born 1879.

Another death for Eleazer Jones, born 22 February 1891, in March 1976 in Merthyr Tydfil.

Helig.

[Hugo]

I wonder if they may have had more children and they died. There are some gaps in between the births and it is unusual not to have a girl. The 1911 census would give us more information on tjis if only we could find them!  :

One Census year and it could be 1911 asks a question how many children born?  and next to it is another asking how many are alive.  That would be interesting to tie in with the other children that we know of.

You have been really busy Helig and have found out a lot about the family.   There are a number of things that you have found out that can be followed up in the Conwy Archives too.   Such as in the marriage Register for Llangystennin,  Burial Indexes and local papers in order to find more about Zachariah

[Helig]

I have tried Find My Past for John Jones and found a baptism for him in Llandegfan in 1882. It shows him as the son of John and Margaret Jones. Date of baptism appears to be 17 December 1882. Their address was Beudy Newydd, not totally certain of the first word. Father's occupation was Labourer. This is taken from an image of the baptism register online.

They also have the army service records for John Jones, it is the right person as his wife is shown as Grace Ellen Jones. There is a considerable amount of information on these records which can be seen online. John Jones served in the Royal Engineers. It shows his civil occupation as a Seaman. elsewhere in the records his occupation is shown as Dock Gateman. On 28/05/1918 he arrived in Alexandria. His home address was: 38 Longfellow St, Bootle. He was aged 32 years on enlistment in 1915. There was a child of the marriage, Margaret Myfanwy Jones born 29/07/1916, Bootle. John Jones was 5 feet and 4 inches high.

There is more information but it would be best to view this on Find My Past which is available in some libraries. I am looking at this there as I don't have access to it otherwise.

The actual parish registers of Llandegfan are on the site.

John Jones senior, b1855, appears to have died in 1930. There is a burial for a John Jones, 11 January 1930, age 75. The address shows: Tan y fynwent, Llandegfan.

I found them in the 1901 census on FMP and the address for them then agrees with the address in the burial register.

Helig

[Hugo]

That address is correct Helig, Beudy Newydd or New Shippon in English is where they lived in the Census before moving to Tan Y Mynwent.
It seems from all the info that you have gathered that John Jones Snr was still living in Tan Y Mynwent when he died so I presume that he is buried in the Cemetery next to his house.

The daughter of John Jnr and Grace that you were able to find that was born in Bootle, I wonder if Margaret Myfanwy is Mull's mother?   
Mull hasn't been posting for a few days so I hope that he hasn't been snowed in up there on the island.

The 1911 Census is still a mystery and the web site I looked at had all the John Jones' in Anglesey listed but I couldn't find Mull's relation on it and there is no explanation as to why he didn't appear on it.   The only thing I can come up with is that on the day of the Census John Snr and Margaret were not staying at the Llandegfan address, they could have been staying in Bootle with John Jnr or any of their other sons addresses.

[Helig]

I was pushed for time today but will look at Find My Past again to find more details. I did see a burial in Llandegfan for a Margaret Jones in c1918. The address given for her was in Liverpool. There were some others buried there from other areas, eg Bangor, plus another from Liverpool. Like you, I wonder if they stayed in Liverpool for a time and returned to their home in Llandegfan?

There must be a huge amount of information on Mull's family in the parish registers for Llandegfan. I wonder which direction he would like us to take in his family research?

Helig.

[mull]

Thanks again Helig for all your hard work. It looks like you have got the right man he is the father of my mother, Margret Myfanwy Jones.
Just one or two discrepancies eg  Seamans Discharge Book gives his height as 5 feet 1 inch, but army record is correct. His fathers death in January 1930 fits in with the notes he made at the time. Unable to explain the reason for the 2 addresses on either side of Llandegfan Church.
After discharge from the army the family moved to 69 Clare road ,Bootle and he was promoted to Head Gateman at Langton Dock.
Still no sign of my Aunty Rose, was she from Llandudno or Llandegfan ? I will see if I can turn up more clues this weekend. Will not be going far in this weather. Hope North wales is less Baltic than here.
All being well will visit Llandudno early January and be able to make some enquiries myself. Any recomendations for hotels ,will have  a well behaved search dog with us. Looking up Trip Advisor it seems some hotels need to be avoided.

Been a busy week up here.

[Helig]

The army service records run to about 7-8 pages on Find My Past. some of them are difficult to read quickly as they need magnifying. It would be worth your while trying to look at these. Also, the parish registers for Llandegfan are going to hold a huge amount of information on your family.

Do you want us to trace your ancestors further back, or to try and track their descendants down to more recent times?

do you have any information on Aunty Rose? Do you know if she was a blood relation, or related by marriage? I have had a look for her but didn't succeed in finding anything.

It is freezing where I am in The Southern Uplands. There is snow on the hills all round and though pretty, it doesn't get above freezing day, or night.

I am a bit out of date on the decent hotels in Llandudno. There is another board on this site which may be helpful to you if you post on it.

Helig

[Helig]

After saying Aunty Rose was a mystery, I found a birth registration for a Rosetta Elizabeth Jones in the September quarter of 1898 in Conwy Registration District. There is also a marriage of Rosetta Elizabeth Jones to Arthur H Williams in the March quarter of 1918 in Conwy Registration District.

Rosetta is in the 1901 census living in Conwy with her parents, William Jones, age 28, a Miner, born Birkenhead and his wife Rosey Jones, age 28, born Conwy. There is a sibling, Richard, age 6 months. In the household is Rosey Williams, mother in law, age 63, widow and a Dressmaker. She was born Conwy.

Do you think this may be your relative?

Helig

[Hugo]

PhilMick found a Census record for Grace in 1901 and in that record there was no one called Rose.   Grace's mother was then aged 50 so it's extremely unlikely that Rose was born later in that family.  What do the earlier Census records show?

Helig, you've found a number of Census records for John Jones Snr and there were no daughters on the Census records so who is Rose?

I found a Rosetta  Jones as a witness to the marriage of John Jnr and Grace, is she the Aunty Rose?   Sometimes and I know from experience that we often called very close family friends Aunts or Uncles, perhaps that's the case here.

One clue we have is that Mull in his first posting mentions Rose and Emlyn Thomas of Beach Road Bangor, perhaps that info will help in a search.     Another mystery is the relationship between the people in Tyn Llan and  John Jones Snr who we know for certain lived in Tan Y Mynwent but Census records, Rate Books and the Register of Electors can sometimes help.

PS    Helig, I think that you are on to something with your last posting as it ties in with what has been found already.  Perhaps Mull will no more about the Conwy connection.   

 

[mull]

Have just spent all afternoon going thriugh my papers again and have come up with the following.
Just for now I do not want to go back beyond 150 years and would like to concentrate on more recent times.
Aunty Rose connection :-

She was married to Emlyn Thomas and lived in Beach Road Bangor overlooking  the Crosville bus garage. In the 1950s Emlyn had 2 vans and ran a carrier service between Bangor and Anglesey. I believe at that time he had the newspaper contract and used to meet the newspaper train in Bangor each morning.
Emlyn and Rose had 2 children, Ronald and Viviene. Both would have been born in the 1920s. Ronald served in the RAF in WW2 and was shot down, finishing the war in a POW camp. My last contact with Ronald was in the 1980s, at that time he was living in Tregarth.
Viviene after her marriage moved to live in Darlington and died sometime in 1960/70s.
I have a photo of Ronald and Viviene as young children and my father has written on the back that they were my mothers cousins. This should rule out my fathers side of the family.
Sometime in the 1970s Rose moved into an Abbeyfield Home in Bangor.
I can not find any connection for Rose in Conway.
My family connection to Conway is on my fathers side.
My father had started to look into his ancestry before he died and I have a copy of his Nain and Tieds marriage certificate :-

17 Jan 1880, Robert Williams, 25,Labourer, Sea view Terrace Conway.
                    Sarah Ellen Evans,25,Domestic Servant, Temperance Hotel Conway.

Roberts birthplace Llangelynin
Sarahs  Birthplace Llangernyw

Their daughter_ Catherine Jane Williams. DOB 28 Oct 1883. Seaview Terrace, Conway was my Nain.

I have a Photo of Robert and Sarahs  grave in Llanrhos cemetery. If I can get the IT to work I will attach it on the end.

Going forward with Grace Ellen Jones. After her husband died she moved back to Llandudno in 1937, to "Eirianfa" 21 Council Street.
Sometime towards the end of WW2 she then moved to Tan Y Wal, Penrhynside as housekeeper to Hugh Hughes, and remained there until 1959 when she became ill and came to live with us in  Liverpool until she died in 1961.

A while ago someone put on this werbsite a copy of the history of properties in Penrhynside. Tan Y Wal is very interesting and I wonder if the Pierce and Jane who moved away sometime in the 1880s were my Nains mother and father.

I can recall going to a memorial service for my nain in the chapel next door to the Cross Keys. Uncle Hugh was then very elderly and had moved into a house opposite the chapel in Pendre Road.

[Hugo]

Mull,  I've a couple of ideas but will check them out asap but in the meantime I think the reference to Tan Y Wal may be found in a booklet written by the late Kenneth Dibble.   He has written a few books on the local area one of which features Penrhynside.  It's a fascinating book describing the people and property in the village and a reference to Tan Y Wal may be found there.

The Conwy Archives have the booklet there so it's well worth a look through if you visit the Archives.    I have a walking book by Chris Draper and he mentions Tan Y Wal and Huw Hughes the cobbler.  Huw had a notorious habit of chewing tobacco and waiting customers had to be alert so as to avoid the soggy projectile of ejected tobacco.   I hope that Grace never got in the way of any!

[Hugo]

Mull,  I went to the Archives and had a look at the books written by Kenneth Dibble and I was very impressed by them.  They are the most comprehensive books I've read on Penrhynside.     I'm not going to comment too much on them, other than to say you must have a look at them when you come here to the Archives.
There are 3 books and the 1st book is about the History and survey of the village,   Part I and 2 are about Houses and families.

In the 1st book people are named in alphabetical order and Pierce and Jane Owen Jones were at Tan Y Wal from 1881 to 1889.  Grace was there from 1946- 1953.
You need to look at pg 54 & 55 of Part 2 to see what it says about the house and families that lived there.

One sad thing I read was that Pierce and Jane had a daughter Jane who died aged 14 months and a son Joseph William who died aged just over 1 year old