European Union Vote

[born2run]

I watched BBC Question Time last night, in an attempt to garner some real facts to help me, if (and it's a massive IF), I decide to cast a vote in the EU referendum.

It was an absolute shambles as every time an audience member asked a perfectly reasonable question, it was met by one of the panel members roaring back with what each of them described as FACTS.  These 'facts' were diametrically opposed and should not be allowed to be represented as such.
At one point, the UKIP panel member even said 'well, we will have to agree that we are using different facts'.   Unbelievable.

The most venerable Mr Dimbleby, presiding, seemed incredibly frustrated with what he was being asked to deal with.  He must be looking around the table at this shower, wondering what happened to the real 'statesmen' that he used to rub shoulders with.

[Hugo]

We do have the Australian points system, Hugo. This link is to a pdf which forms the basic manual for border control officers. But one thing is interesting: rather like accident lawyers there are lawyers who specialise in aiding immigrants to enter the UK.

Looking at the ONS stats for immigration it would appear that the sectors increasing the most are long term immigration for study and asylum seekers. But none of that changes the fact that we can refuse anyone. There may be many reasons why we don't, but we can if we wish to, and I seriously doubt that leaving the EU would make things any better in that regard.

On paper it seems that we do already have the powers to accept and deport immigrants but in the real world this is far from straight forward.  If you take the extreme examples of Abu Hamza al-Masri and Abu Quatada it took many years and millions of pounds before they were extradited.    Then again if you see the TV programme Border Force UK many nationalities get arrested by the Customs Officers but are not detained for deportation simply because those UK officers cannot find documentation for those people arrested,   Surely it is up to those arrested individuals to prove their identity to the UK Government rather than vice versa,
What simply happens is that details of the individuals are taken and then those individuals are released in to the community but given instructions to report to Police Stations or similar at set intervals.
It doesn't take a genius to work out what will happen next and the illegals just abscond.  This process just continues if that individual gets caught again which seems to be a pointless exercise.
Like you I don't believe that anything will change even if we leave the EU

[Bosun]

I have always regarded Jeremy Paxman as a thoroughly decent journalist, (especially after his wonderful demolition of the pompous Michael Howard) and watched his programme 'Paxman in Brussels - Who Really Rules Us' with interest. There is no doubt that the aim of the EU is to make a 'Federal State of Europe' and I think that the real decision on 23 June is whether we want to be part of that Federal State, and governed by it, and it would be more honest of the 'Remainers' to be clear about that.

That having been said, there are advantages to a FSE, but I personally have huge reservations about going in that direction, the Euro is a precarious currency and the 'EU' is becoming unwieldy with Eastern European and middle eastern countries lined up to join with all the issues they bring, for example, Turkey's appalling record on human rights, including genocide, lack of free speech, blatant official corruption etc. Having spent time in Turkey, it has to be said that it has nothing in common with EU countries. Also, I don't like being threatened by Francois Hollande that Britain would face 'consequences' if we left the EU, that to me was a step too far. However, I do love Europe, for example, the Dutch are lovely, Spain is great, French wine is superb, we can learn a lot from European countries, but do we want to be part of them, and ruled by them?

I consider this referendum to be the most important national vote in my life time, and the result will effect generations to come.

Slowly, I am coming to the conclusion that a 'Remain' vote will bolster the advent of a Federal State of Europe and embolden the EU's power to crush member nations sovereignty and I don't like what the additional proposed EU states would bring to the table.

I think that you can guess where my x is going........       

 

[pkevin]

I agree with Bosun, this is about sovereignty.  We had a civil war hundreds of years ago so we could have elected representatives to make laws, not an unelected commissioners who can't be removed from office.     I am worried about the direction the Eu is going, it's more interested in expansion by bringing in new members, has it's own flag and anthem, a currency that could crash, talk of an EU army and has not had it's finances audited and signed of in 11 years.  The EU as it stand at the moment is not fit for purpose the EEC was, it needs reform and maybe leaving could make this happen.  It would be good for Britain and good for the rest of Europe.  If we vote to stay it may be a good idea to put into legerslation that we hold a referendum on membership every 10 years or so just in case thing go wrong with the EU in the future.

[Ian]

It's be an even better idea if we could vote on laws passed by the UK Parliament.

[pkevin]

With today's tech that could be possible

[Hugo]

That is a very good summing up of the situation Bosun and I just wish that I had seen that programme.   We do get on with our European neighbours and will continue to do so in the future as we have so much in common with them.
It's Governments that cause the problem and as the EU expands it will create more problems here.   It will be like history repeating itself as eventually all Empires implode on themselves and often with dire consequences.
I'm afraid that Angela Merkel has started the decline of the EU by openly inviting unlimited migration into Eorope and as for Turkey being invited to join the EU then that would be the final straw for Europe.

[SteveH]

I found this article interesting.......

We pay, but have no say: that’s the reality of Norway’s relationship with the EU

"As a former foreign minister of Norway, I am following Britain’s debate about its future relationship with the European Union with great interest. I have been struck by how a group of politicians hold my own country, Norway, aloft as a model to which to aspire. However, the way the Norwegian relationship with the EU is portrayed does not necessarily correspond to reality as I have experienced it. "
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

[Ian]

That's very interesting. I still haven't decided but I accept Bosun's well-reasoned argument about Federalisation; that's clearly the way the EU itself is going. However, since I've been delving deeply (over the past couple of weeks) into all things EU I have discovered, for instance, that we retain all the rights many of the tabloids are suggesting we don't. We can deport, we can refuse entry on several grounds, we're not signed up to Schengen and - in short - our own governance is pretty much as it's always been. We may not choose to exercise all those rights, as Hugo suggests, and the mass migration over the past year or so has been exceptional in many ways. But the fact is that modern societies and cultures have become significantly interdependent over the past 50 years and it's likely that even if we leave we'd have to continue trading with our neighbours and we'd still be reliant on them for many things.

The article above does seem to suggest that countries remaining outside the EU still sign up to many EU treaties, trade agreements and so forth, but the problem is that we would no longer have any say in what the EU decides. But one paragraph in the article is particularly concerning:

"Those campaigning for Britain to leave the EU and chose the Norwegian way can hence correctly claim that a country can retain access to the single market from outside the EU. What is normally not said, however, is that this also means retaining all the EU’s product standards, financial regulations, employment regulations, and substantial contributions to the EU budget. A Britain choosing this track would, in other words, keep paying, it would be “run by Brussels”, and it would remain committed to the four freedoms, including free movement."

[Cambrian]

Federations rarely last if one component is profoundly unhappy with what they see as undemocratic arrangements eg Nyasaland (Central African Federation) and Jamaica (West Indies Federation). Singapore simply left the Malaysian Federation and has done very well for itself ever since.

[Jelly Baby]

I've read with interest all of the comments and one thing has become clear, at least to me: the majority of contributors to this topic have been concerned with border control and immigration, especially that part that impinges on benefits, housing, schools, etc. I wonder if any part of the Govt, whether it be pro-EU or pro-Brexit, has been listening to a word we've said?  Figures have been thrown about at random, but in reality, the figures don't matter so much as the concern that lies behind it all. There must be many other items that need to be addressed before a true picture can emerge, but the pro and anti people are instead using anything they can to force people onto their "side", irrespective of what's really good for Britain.  That should be the only "side" in this whole debate: What is best for Britain's future?
But there again, that's a bit too simplistic, innit?!

[Hugo]

What is best for the UK's future is the important thing but you can't trust the present day Politicians who are feeding us with speculation and misinformation.
Cameron has said that Turkey will not be allowed into the EU for decades but on the Andrew Neil show today, Lord David Owen, who I believe to be a  good politician said that Cameron had signed a document nine weeks ago that would accelerate Turkey's entry into the EU.
Cameron also recently made a statement in which he said that Muslim women will be given five years to improve their ability to speak English or else they will be returned to their home country.    It's a stupid statement to be made by a PM as he knows by past experience that he can't do it because of EU rules.

[born2run]

I've read with interest all of the comments and one thing has become clear, at least to me: the majority of contributors to this topic have been concerned with border control and immigration,

Amazing isn't it? Considering Wales has such a tiny amount of migration

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/press-releases/changes-migrant-population-wales-2001-2011

These figures are only up to 2011 but this report is a little more recent

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/latest-migration-stats-show-rise-5803534

I really don't see what all the fuss is about 

[SteveH]

This is what the polls tell us about the EU referendum.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/eu-referendum-polls-divided-age-11418114

[Ian]

Yes... Seems about right.