European Union Vote

[born2run]

Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me. 

But, on the other hand, you're suggesting it is fair for them to receive the money in exchange for doing nothing at all...?

Quite simply yes. If they didn't have that money they would have three options.

1) Starve to death
2) Go to a food bank (which WE also pay for)
3) Rob people

I prefer option 4) receive a paltry hand out (£57) to keep them alive until they find work. That is what the welfare state is and it's something Britain should be proud of.

   

[Bosun]

Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me. 

But, on the other hand, you're suggesting it is fair for them to receive the money in exchange for doing nothing at all...?

Quite simply yes. If they didn't have that money they would have three options.

1) Starve to death
2) Go to a food bank (which WE also pay for)
3) Rob people

I prefer option 4) receive a paltry hand out (£57) to keep them alive until they find work. That is what the welfare state is and it's something Britain should be proud of.

   

5) Work.

[born2run]

Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me. 

But, on the other hand, you're suggesting it is fair for them to receive the money in exchange for doing nothing at all...?

Quite simply yes. If they didn't have that money they would have three options.

1) Starve to death
2) Go to a food bank (which WE also pay for)
3) Rob people

I prefer option 4) receive a paltry hand out (£57) to keep them alive until they find work. That is what the welfare state is and it's something Britain should be proud of.

   

5) Work.

Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability


^^ what so you suggest we do with these people?

Because I think the welfare state has pretty much covered it and that's why we need it.

[Bosun]

Message from planet earth to B2R:

1.  Talk to any employer in the UK about the problems with obtaining staff.

2.  Why to you think that we have so many economic migrants? It's because we have plenty of jobs, but our benefits system makes them unattractive to many that are in receipt of welfare payments. 

Of course we have a welfare system for those who deserve it, but the discussion was about those that could work but choose not to.

[born2run]

Message from planet earth to B2R:

1.  Talk to any employer in the UK about the problems with obtaining staff.

2.  Why to you think that we have so many economic migrants? It's because we have plenty of jobs, but our benefits system makes them unattractive to many that are in receipt of welfare payments. 

Of course we have a welfare system for those who deserve it, but the discussion was about those that could work but choose not to.

So how exactly do you separate those who deserve it from those who choose not to? Making people work for five years before they get anything doesn't work because of the reasons I've explained above. Have you got any other ideas?

and in response

1) - thousands of people turn up at job fairs all the time (http://www.expressandstar.com/business/2014/05/15/thousands-turn-out-for-molineux-jobs-fair/imgid3345966/) one example but there are many, many more

2) We don't have so many economic migrants who come justfor benefits - most come to work and do work and make our economy better (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/18/mass-eu-migration-into-britain-is-actually-good-news-for-uk-economy)

[Ian]

As a long time believer in the welfare state, I do have one question for B2R: in that 6-point list you provided, how many of those items are through choice or self-inflicted?

[DaveR]

Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.

[born2run]

As a long time believer in the welfare state, I do have one question for B2R: in that 6-point list you provided, how many of those items are through choice or self-inflicted?

Through choice, possibly 1 - Self inflicted - again possibly, up to 3

[born2run]

Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.

No DaveR we are talking about benefits in general in response to the post by Bosun.

"I also believe that everyone, not just immigrants, should have a five year proven work record before they should be able to access benefits and social housing"

[DaveR]

Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.

No DaveR we are talking about benefits in general in response to the post by Bosun.

"I also believe that everyone, not just immigrants, should have a five year proven work record before they should be able to access benefits and social housing"

I think you've confused things a little, as you quoted your own comment about Jobseekers Allowance and not Bosun's post about a 5 year work record in your reply at 5.05pm yesterday. 

[pkevin]

The Spectator Debate: Should Britain leave the EU?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYTJGBBjkGo

[Ian]

And there's always Brexit - the Movie,  by the same bloke who produced the controversial (and comprehensively debunked) 2007 documentary The Great Global Warming Swindle, and somewhat less well known for an episode of NASA's Unexplained Files titled "Did We Nuke Jupiter?"?

[born2run]

Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.

No DaveR we are talking about benefits in general in response to the post by Bosun.

"I also believe that everyone, not just immigrants, should have a five year proven work record before they should be able to access benefits and social housing"

I think you've confused things a little, as you quoted your own comment about Jobseekers Allowance and not Bosun's post about a 5 year work record in your reply at 5.05pm yesterday. 

Then that was a user error  :rage: Although I don't think people should have to wait 5 years to get jobseekers allowance either.

[Hugo]

Message from planet earth to B2R:

1.  Talk to any employer in the UK about the problems with obtaining staff.

2.  Why to you think that we have so many economic migrants? It's because we have plenty of jobs, but our benefits system makes them unattractive to many that are in receipt of welfare payments. 

Of course we have a welfare system for those who deserve it, but the discussion was about those that could work but choose not to.

I agree completely with everything that you have said and the benefit system is in need of immediate reform.     It's morally wrong and financially unsustainable to have a system in place that allows:-
Unemployed immigrants to enter the UK for the sole purpose of remaining unemployed and yet receive up to four times more money in benefits in the UK than they had received in their own country
For those immigrants that do work, why should the UK be paying benefits for a wife and child who live abroad, shouldn't the wife and child be claiming those benefits from the country that they actually live in.

As for the argument on those people who are able to work but refuse to work, just what is wrong with expecting them to be made to do some form of work.   It's not taking jobs away from others, it could be jobs helping the community because of the financial limitations of local authorities.
No one should be encouraged to think that they can get through life without working and just living off the backs of those  that are prepared to work.
What I find inconceivable and just annoying are people who support the minority who don't want to work and also refuse to work.

[Ian]

Thing is I doubt much of that would change if we left the EU.