Wyddfydd Road, Great Orme 1927

[Hugo]

 

I've only just noticed that I've made a mistake on No 207    Mary Jones.
 The date of the Baptism was 3rd Feb 1828 as shown in the photo and not the 13th Feb 1825 as posted.       

[Hugo]

I was reading Chris Draper's book last night and at page 188 he mentions Y Storws.   The stone warehouse had been erected on the Morfa  by the mining companies.   The first Tai Unnos were erected alongside Y Storws,  using the familiar warehouse name as a reference point for their address.
With this in mind and the information about the Baptism's I found,   Owen Jones and his wife Cathrine were living as squatters on the Morfa in 1828 and Mary,  I believe was born there.
The family would have remained in their Ty Unnos until the Enclosure Act of 1843 was enforced and they were moved by Lord Mostyn to new cottages in Madoc Street that were built to rehouse the squatters.
In the book Chris Draper also mentions that in 1861 Owen Jones & the family were living at 3 Wyddfyd Cottages.   I've actually been inside that house because my brother lived there when he was first married

[Hugo]

This is just another snippet from Chris Draper's book but on page 193 he says "Catherine senior, or Kitty as she was known to villagers , ran a rival bakehouse to Marged Jones' village "Typopty" and used a similar "trumpeting" system" to attract people to her bakery.
When I checked the Baptism records, I found an entry No 531 on the 6th October 1854 for Anne , daughter of Owen And Catherine Jones and their address was given as Ty Popty which was in Cwlach Street Llandudno
Could it be that Marged Jones of Ty Popty  ( The Bakehouse) Cwlach Street is in fact related to Owen Jones either either as a sister or sister in law?

[Hugo]

I was at the Archives today and had a look at the Burial Indexes for St George's Church and Capel Ainon being the other two Cemeteries for the area but could not find an entry for Owen Jones and his wife Cathrine.

I then looked at the Llandudno Marriage Register for Llandudno covering the years 1813 to 1837 and could find no entry for Owen and Cathrine there either.

I also had a look at an old Baptism record for Llandudno to see if I could find an entry for Owen Jones who was born in Llandudno and found two entries:-
One was on 3rd November 1793 for Owen Jones son of Hugh Jones by his wife Elizabeth and the other entry was:-
                  14th March 1801 for  Owen  Jones son of Hugh Jones by Elizabeth his wife

There were no other entries for an Owen Jones but it's a mystery why  Hugh and Elizabeth Jones had two sons Baptised called Owen Jones.   When this happened in the past it was usually because the first Owen Jones had died and the second Owen Jones was named in honour of the first one.   I didn't check the Burial Register between 1703 and 1801 due to lack of time

[Hugo]

The entire population of Llandudno was only 318 in 1801  but you can't assume anything without having definite proof that people are who you think they are.
They do throw up some interesting things though and make you think.   In the very old Baptism records I looked at yesterday there are two entries for a child called Owen Jones with Hugh Jones being the father and Elizabeth his wife.
What is the explanation there?
I read Chris Draper's book again last night and looked at a list of rented small holdings and their tenants during the early 1800's.  There were two Hugh Jones listed and one entry was for Pen Hwllfa and the other for Rofft both being on the Great Orme.
Could there be two Hugh Jones' with a wife called Elizabeth or is it possible that one person rented both properties?
It's interesting and makes you think a bit.
There was also another Hugh Jones who farmed at Adwy Rhydd and has a descendant on the forum called Jom but I have been able to rule that Hugh Jones out because his wife was called Sarah.

[Kaye]

Hugo,you have managed to find lots of interesting information about the Jones and you are way ahead of me!
I can only add that Owen Williams,John's father has stated he was born in Llanfachreth,Anglesey in one of the censuses.
The 1859 marriage is very possibly theirs and in 1861 a Mary and Owen Williams were living in Llandudno on their own at an address I'm not sure of, which helps to support John's birth being the one recorded in 1862 at Cwlach .However its always good to have more evidence , but I haven't found anything useful online yet.Finding baptisms for John's siblings may help in proving their addresses and dates and also whether there were any others born before him.
It was lovely to see a glimpse of the Great Orme on "Coast and Country" tonight .Happy memories of that last of the summer weather!
 
 

[Hugo]

Hi Kaye,  I haven't been looking at the Census records because I know that you will have busy doing that and I didn't want to duplicate the research.
The records in the Archives go back a long way and the older records on Baptisms and burials are just like entries in a note book whereas the later ones are in a proper Register and show the addresses too.
In the 1861 Census is the address not legible?    If you can make any sense of it put it on here and our local knowledge may help.
That info about Llanfachraeth is a good find too as it narrows the search down.     At the 2001 census the community of Llanfachraeth had a population of 566  increasing slightly at the 2011 census to 589.   so in the 1800's the population would have been much less and so should be easier to trace.
I'm hoping to go to the Archives again soon so I'll look at the Baptism records and see if I can find anything.

[Kaye]

Hello Hugo-This may mean something to you-The address for Owen and Mary Williams in 1861 reads Back P*ngivess* Ho*.The previous entry is for7,Bodafon Row and the next Mostyn Street,Central Library.Owen and Mary are in their thirties.Mary was born in Llandudno and Owen,an ag lab, from Anglesea,Llanfach*th.Owen is the Head with Mary his wife ,and 2 boarders.In the book it says that Owen Jones and family were  in 3,Wyddfyd Cottages in 1861 .I will look  next time in the1861 census and see which children were still living at home with Owen and Kitty.

In 1871 Owen and Mary Williams had 4 chidren and were living at the"Old Road Shops".I will see if I can find an entry for Owen and Kitty.

[Hugo]

I've got a rough idea of where they lived in 1861 but will check it out for myself when I look at the Census.    I'll also look at Owen in Llanfachraeth in the 1841 or 1851 Census records.

I've got a feeling that the "Old Road Shops" are in fact Cromwell House but again no conclusive proof of that.   

[Kaye]

Hugo,if you have time when you are  at the archives to look at these baptism dates which I think are likely to be those of Owen and Mary's children it may help with where they were living between  censuses.
John Williams-14th June 1862,Cwalch(I saw this one when I was there but didn't have time to find the others,parents Owen and Mary Williams.I have now found these dates on FamilySearch:
Catherine Williams 3rd February 1865
Owen Williams 23rd March 1866
Elizabeth Williams 2nd April1873
I'm not sure if they will confirm Mary's maiden name but they seem to correspond with ages in the census so would be useful information
 I have plenty to get on with for now from what you have already done so I will be visiting my library over the next couple of weeks to keep investigating.
It's lovely to see that through the forum Downunder,after lots of detective work has also found living relatives just as happened for me. Thanks again Hugo.

[Hugo]

I was in the Archives today and had a look at the Baptism records and found the 4 that you have listed.  I did go right through the Registers but there were no other children for Owen and Mary listed.  The dates agree with your findings but Mary's maiden name is not listed on the Registers.  The addresses and occupations given were as follows:-

1862   Cwlach       Carter
1863 !     "            labourer
1866    Church Walks     Labourer
1873    Old Road            Labourer


I noticed some interesting entries in the Registers too.   There were entries for a William and Elizabeth Williams and John and Margaret Williams with both families living at Pen Y Ffrith.   Could they be related in some way to this ever increasing Williams family.

With regard to the 1861 Census,  Bodafon Row is a back street between the Promenade and Mostyn Street and in 1910 was renamed Bodafon Street.     Owen and Mary lived at the Back of Pengwern House ( could be hotel?)  and I would imagine that it is somewhere in Bodafon Street.

I found an interesting bit in the 1851 Census and again there is no proof that it is your Owen but it was the only entry in Anglesy for Llanfachraeth and the entry at No 86 for an address at 3  Hafodwen Road  Llanfachraeth is as follows:-

Ann Williams  Head    Widow  age 67      In the Parish Relief Law     born  ( can't make it out)
Owen Williams   inmate    age 22            Old weaver                        born   Mechel    about 1829
Ann    Williams    Grand daughter           With her Grand mother     born   Machraeth
         

[Kaye]

Thank you very much Hugo-With the other information I have I think  that confirms that  group of baptisms are O and M's 4 children and I now have as good an idea of when John was born as I can get.
Owen and Mary certainly moved around a lot in the early years of marriage,but eventually settled in Old Road which must have been convenient for Owen to get to the quarry to work and Mary became a lodging house keeper .
It would take some work to find out how  and if  all these Williams are connected but the fact the parish records are so well maintained is a great resource.The same  Christian names seem to crop up over and again and I had wondered if  a naming  pattern was used similar to that in Ireland.
     That's a very interesting find in 1851 in Anglesey  and thanks for deciphering" Pengwern" .Plenty for me to work on-thanks!

[Hugo]

Just an add on Kaye about Cwlach that was mentioned as their address in the Census.    The street leading off from Llwynon Gardens is Cwlach Street.
 it's quite a narrow street and crosses over Cwlach Road which goes uphill on the right to Haulfre Gardens and Cwlach Street continues straight on for about 200 yards. 
I don't think it was called Cwlach Street in 1861 and the only reason I know that is because my G G Grandfather was living there in the 1861 Census.
There was a property called Cwlach Cottage and another bigger property called Y Cwlach in the area but without seeing the Census for the whole street, I couldn't pinpoint the exact property.
I have a copy of the Census for 1861 showing my G G Grandfather's address but unfortunately Owen and Mary are not on that page so it'll have to be back to the Archives to check it out.

[Kaye]

I have been looking at the Jones family in the censuses and it is confusing and I shall have to look again.
In 1861The  family at 3,Wyddfyd Cottages,East Old Road has Owen Jones,65,copper miner but no other Jones.The others are daughters and 2 grandchildren,Elinor Edwards and Robert Davies.  This seems to relate to an 1851 census at Twll y Mig with Owen Jones,56,Cathrine,52,G*or,10 and Robert Davies,8.I wonder whether you couldn't find Ellinor's baptism because the name could actually be mistaken for Gaynor.
In1841 there is the family at Morfa Upper Township as in the book but 10 years younger.If it is all the same family then Owen Jones came from Pensarn, Anglesey according to the 1861 census.

There are also lots of Owen Williams.He must have been born between 1827 and 1831,I think.We know his father was also known as Owen and that he came from Anglesey but we don't when he arrived in Llandudno so I am looking at the 1851 census to see if he is there but it is quite a task.

[Hugo]

It does sound confusing Kaye and I'll have a look again at your posting.    I'm out all day today so I can't look too closely at it now.