Wyddfydd Road, Great Orme 1927

[Hugo]

I'm pleased to say that Kaye and Geoff, the present day Williams family member are now in direct contact with each other and exchanging information about their family.    It's nice the way things have worked out with this request and I wish them both all the best with their family history.

It's a small world too, because Geoff is a really nice guy and we are old friends going back to our teenage years in Llandudno.    He told me last week that his eldest brother once worked for my late father many years ago and now that he has mentioned it I can recall my father talking about his brother.

[Hugo]

On 27th September 2015  I drove to the car park by St Tudno's Church and met Geoff there, he is a present day Williams family member and also an old friend of mine from our teenage years.    We had a good catch up chat before I had the pleasure of meeting Kaye, her husband and two members of Geoff's family who had just attended an open air service at St Tudno's Church.
We all talked for ages and then I left as it was the Williams' time to enjoy the rest of the day.
Geoff told me later that they went to the graveyard and saw the grave of John Williams that I had previously posted and they also found the grave of John's  father,  Owen Williams, his wife Mary and the daughter Elizabeth.
Owen Williams tragically died at the young age of 46 when he was working in the quarry in Happy Valley and a rock fell and hit him on the head.
According to Geoff,  Kaye was so excited by everything that she and her husband extended their stay in Llandudno.   It was so nice to put a face to a name and meeting all those nice people
Kaye had originally contacted the forum for information about her Grandmother but had ended up knowing her G G Grandparents and lots more beside.

[Hugo]

I went to the Archives this week and had a look at some Census records for the family of Owen Williams  ( Kaye's G G Grandfather)
The  1971 Census details are:-
Owen Williams    age 40  Gardener  born Anglesey            living at Old Road shops
Mary        "                 44                   "      Llandudno   
d shopsJohn        "          son 9                      "           "
Catherine            dau  7                     "            "
Owen                  son   5                    "            "
Elizabeth             dau   3                    "            "

Following Owen's tragic death in the mid 1870's  the 1881 Census was as follows:-

Mary  Williams     Widow  age 54  Charwoman                living at Cromwell House Old Road Llandudno
John     "               son            18   Mason's apprentice
Catherine              dau             16   Domestic servant
Owen    "               son             15   Labourer
Elizabeth               dau              12   Scholar

I had a look at the Llandudno Register of Banns of Marriage but could not find an entry for Owen & Mary but on hindsight I should also have looked at the Eglwysrhos Register as Mary may have lived in the Parish of Eglwysrhos.    The Register may have given the town in Anglesey where Owen was born and this would help with further searches

[Hugo]

I visited Old Road after leaving the Archives to try and trace Cromwell House.   Names and places have changed over the years but I think that Cromwell House is either a house called Allandale and is on the Corner of Plas Road or the building where the Chip Shop is now.
Whichever property it is then it's only about 50 yards from where John Williams lived in Llwynon Gardens.

[Hugo]

When I was in the Archives this week looking at the 1881 Census I also noticed another entry at Old Road.    This was for a William Williams aged 38 and his wife Jane aged 36.
William and Jane lived at Myrtle House  Old Road and William was a builder by trade and was born in Anglesey as was Jane.
With a popular name like Williams you get a lot of red herrings while doing any research but this I found interesting although you do need definite evidence to prove the link with Owen Williams.
I'll call at the Archives asap and have a look at the Register of Banns of Marriage for Eglwysrhos and see if I can find anything

[Hugo]

I called at the Archives today and had a look at a few things.    The Street Index for 1939 confirms that Cromwell House is where the Fish & Chip Shop is now.  ( Allendale is listed in it but wasn't in the 1929 Street Index).
The building has been altered over the years but Cromwell House is the bit on the left of the building.
The Archives also has a Marriage Register for Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and I found this item at No 180 in the Llandudno Register.   It seems that Owen and Mary both lived in Madoc Street and as was common in those days the numbers of the properties are not listed.
There was no other entry for an Owen and Mary and I think that this could well be Kaye's G G Grandparents Wedding as the ages are very similar to those on the Census records

[Hugo]

I was looking again at the 1859 record from the Marriage Register and noted that Mary Jones and her father lived at Madoc Street Llandudno. 
Anyone who knows about the History of Llandudno will know about the legal stealing of the common land by Lord Mostyn and his Enclosure Act of 1843.
The squatters on the common land had their land and property "stolen" and they were rehoused by Lord Mostyn in Madoc Street in about 1850
I had a look at a book "Llandudno before the Hotels" by Christopher Draper and in it he lists the people who lived on the Morfa and were evicted by Lord Mostyn and I found an entry for Mary Jones, her father Owen Jones and the names of their large family.
The book is a great read for anyone interested in the history of Llandudno and it even shows where Owen Jones lived on the Morfa.  In actual fact he lived in a prime location near where the Lifeboat slipway is now.

[Kaye]

Hello again to all on the forum and thankyou.Through Hugo and his cousin we were able to establish that my grandmother,Phyllis, has nephews and nieces living in Llandudno currently. These are my mother's cousins  ,that she had no knowledge of. My trip to Llandudno ,originally to carry out more research ,turned into a wonderful,exciting meeting with the sons and daughters of Phyllis' two brothers, and two of their children plus of course,Hugo.We were taken to all the addresses with which I'd become familiar through the censuses and saw the Great Orme's Head by car ,tram, and cable car.The weather played its part to show it off at its best with clear views of the coastline.The open air service at St.Tudno's was the last of the year and a fitting place to start as we were able to visit the grave of my great grandparents, and also my great great grandparents  afterwards.It is a place of great peace and beauty.These gravestones gave valuable family information and we are very grateful to those who recorded the inscriptions and to those who look after the churchyard.
We had a very enjoyable and memorable stay in Llandudno.As well as getting to know my new relatives I visited the archives and the registry office.All the staff were extremely helpful.One document I was particularly pleased to find was Phyllis'sister's marriage which revealed that Phyllis was a witness and we have her signature-Something I am excited to show my mother.
I have explained who everyone is to my mother with charts and photos etc as it has been a lot to take in and now she is in a position to be able to be in touch and hopefully visit herself one day.
The Great Orme is a wonderful historical place of natural beauty and I am proud that my ancestors
were part of it .
Thank you again to the forum and especially to Hugo for his kindness in sharing his local knowledge.
I have just seen he has been posting more and so I am going to study that now!

[Kaye]

Hugo,you have found so much interesting material   that although I said I was going to have a short break from the research while I assimilate and consolidate all I have learned,I shall just have to carry on!
I felt a great affinity with the Great Orme's landscape as it reminded me of the terrain of Dartmoor and the coast where I grew up,so I would be delighted to find that our family was one of the originals through Mary,my great,great,grandmother.
When I was in the archives I found an interesting entry.It was a baptism for John Williams,son of Owen,a carter and Mary for June 14th 1862.The abode was just Cwlach.
I was also given some information for the 1861 census which showed an Owen and Mary Williams living in the Back of Pengiven(?) House.Owen is an agric.labourer  and is from Anglesea,although I can't make out the district.(RG9 4359)
I shall see if I can pinpoint John's marriage and birth as certificates may help to check on Owen.I think John and Annie may have had a civil marriage so there won't be a parish record.
I notice Owen and Mary Jones were married by licence which I think is why there were no banns.There may be a document for the licence.
It's interesting that in 1891 Mary is at "Northern Grove" in the census but I think this was at Bodyfryd Road between no.3 and Claremont House.(You mentioned this address previously as mentioned in the G.O.Explorer's journal) This is the name used later in Maelgwyn Tce by John and Annie . Myrtle Grove was also used at Maelgwyn Tce.In 1901 Mary is back at Old Road.

[norman08]

Hello Kaye I am Hugo's cousin ,I got reading your this topic between yourself and Hugo things started to ring a bell and I started getting interested asked questions when I asked Jeff things well with Jeff and Hugo working hard it all come good , Jeffs wife has said how exciting it was and the way you all had a lovely catch up ,so glad you enjoyed the Orme and as Jeff said you extended your stay ,hope you find out lots more . Norman

[Hugo]

Hi Norman, hope that you are keeping well and thanks again for everything that you have done to make this happen.    As an old Ormeite you'll know a lot about the Orme and it's history.
Like Kaye has said it also reminds me of Dartmoor too.  My wife's relatives lived in Tavistock near the Moors and we have been there a few times.   Her relatives  then moved to Plymouth.
Llandudno's population in 1801 was only 318 and increased to 1131 by 1851 so there may be ways through Church Records etc to go further back in time.
As for the Williams side of the family,  Owen Williams' father was also called Owen Williams but at present we don't know the name of the village or town where they lived.
A lot of the copper miners and builders came to Llandudno from Amlwch  so it'll be interesting to see if they lived there.
Our Nain Ellen (Grandmother) also came from Amlwch as did her mother whose maiden name was Ellen Williams, now that would be some coincidence.     

[Hugo]

I went to the Archives again and had a look at the Marriage Registers for Llandudno and Eglwysrhos.  I was hoping to find an entry for Owen Jones and his wife Cathrine   aka  Kitty as they were both born in Llandudno and were one of the first squatters on the Morfa.
Unfortunately I couldn't find any entry for them in the Church records but they may have got married in a Chapel instead and Chapel records are not always available
I then went on Ancestry and looked at the Census records for 1841.    There are hundreds of Owen Williams' in Anglesey in the 1841 Census so I took his age and year of death into account and it would appear that he was born in 1831.
Assuming that year to be correct there were only two entries that had a father and son called Owen Williams.:-

Owen Williams aged 65 shopkeeper of Tyn Llidiart   Rhosybol in the Parish of Amlwch
Margaret Williams   wife aged  42
Owen Williams    son aged 10

Owen Williams aged 50  farmer     of    fawr    Llaneugrad
Catherine  Williams   wife aged  45
Owen Williams    son  aged  10

Unfortunately there is no evidence to prove that either of the above are your Owen Williams but it's something to think about.   If we knew for certain the year of Owen's birth then it would make the search easier

[Hugo]

I've looked at this again and am a bit confused.  The year of 1831 given to me,  was arrived from info in the Burial Index for Owen Williams who died in the Happy Valley quarry.
Looking back at the copy of the entry from the Marriage Register on the 7th October 1859  however ,  Owen's age was 30 so if that was correct then Owen would have been born either in 1830 ( up to 6th Oct 1830) or the tail end of 1829.
Research can be enjoyable but also frustrating, so back to the Archives next week to look at the 1851 Census.
In the 1851 Census  Owen Williams the father will be there, so may Owen Williams the son born C1830 but it will be interesting to see if there is a William Williams  born C1843 there.  He may be the one in Myrtle Grove Old Road  ( later the section called Bodhyfryd Road)

[Hugo]

I went to the Archives this afternoon but couldn't find a grave for Owen and Cathrine Jones at St Tudno's Church or at St Hilary's in Llanrhos the burial Indexes I looked at only show the graves with headstones.
The Register of Banns of Marriage only start from 1853 so there was no point in looking at those.

I then had a look at the Llandudno Baptism Register for 1813 to 1862 ( ref CEP17/1/2)  and this showed the Baptisms of all the children listed in Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the Hotels)  apart from Ellinor.   I had a photo copy done of Mary's Baptism only because she is the direct line ancestor of the Williams family.    All the Baptism details I saw are shown below:-

No          Date                Child's name                  Parents name                                             occupation                               address
145      13/4/1823         John                         Owen & Catherine  Jones                                     Miner                                Llwyn Helig

171      17/4/1825         Catherine                                  "                                                             "                                               "

207       13/2/1825        Mary                                         "                                                               "                                   Y Storws

231        31/1/1830        Anne                                        "                                                              "                                          "

277         13/12/1834     Ann                                         "                                                               "                                          "

336         1/9/1839          Gaynor                                   "                                                               "                                          "

435          13/5/1849       Ellen                                        "                                                               "                                     Y Morfa
                                        aged 27 and a half years

531          6/10/1854       Anne                                       "                                                             Butcher                             Ty Popty

538          17/12/1854     Elizabeth                                  "                                                          Miner                                 Pen Y Ffrith


658          3/12/1858       Catherine          naughty boy of Gaynor Jones                                        no entry                                   New Cottage


From what I've found above Owen Jones' daughter Gaynor No338  must have had an illegitimate daughter when she was about 19 and named her after her own mother

There are three Ann or Anne's recorded but I've found in the past that parents often named their next child after one that had died previously and that may be the case here.

No 531  has Owen Jones as a Butcher and living at Ty Popty on 6/10/1854 which is the only entry with a different occupation although we know that Owen was a pig slaughter man.   Ty Popty as it's Welsh name suggests was the bakery  and was in Cwlach Street

Just for your info Kaye,  Llwyn Helig was on the Great Orme where the copper mine is now (opposite the half way tram station.
Y Storws  (The Store house)    I'm not sure where that was but on the Orme somewhere
Y Morfa     that's where the modern day promenade is now and near the life boat slipway.  They lived in a Ty Unnos and were one of the first squatters there
Ty Popty  (  Bakery house) Cwlach Street
Pen Y Ffrith   on the great Orme just past Cyll Terrace
New Cottage   It'll be on the Great Orme but not sure where although there is a Ty Newydd (New House) in Old Road opposite Llwynon Gardens                                               

[Hugo]

I can see that the entry No 658 has been edited because of the B word, sorry about that but I copied it exactly as it stated in the Register.  In modern day English it would have read " illegitimate daughter"