Poll

What should be done with Colwyn Bay Pier?

Demolish it
Carry out basic renovation (spend up to £5m)
Carry out comprehensive renovation, including all buildings (spend up to £10m)

Author Topic: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier  (Read 385869 times)

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Offline Fester

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #600 on: October 26, 2014, 09:37:41 pm »
Fester must have a better idea about the financial viability of piers than most of us and I agree, I think entrance fees would be a disastrous move for all the businesses there that's why they scrapped them in the first place.
I would like to pose this question to Fester though.
I haven't a clue how much you pay to have a concession on the pier and don't need to know, however, if Colwyn Bay's pier was renovated and you were offered the opportunity of have a retail outlet there at the same price as Llandudno's would you take it ?
In addition,if it's going to cost upwards of £5,000,000 to renovate and still in all probability remain within the councils ownership, do you think the rents from potential rentals would provide enough income to service the loan debt ?

Dave, when you see any kiosk on Llandudno Pier that is vacant, on application you will find that they are between £6000 and £9000 per annum to rent. 
There are more becoming available each year, which is an indication that the owners have now gone too high with the rents, and hence many are not viable.
The selling season has also become much shorter, (May to September), and each selling day has become shorter. (Noon to 4pm if you are lucky)
A combination of factors have led to this.
So, in direct response to your question, NO, I would not open a kiosk on Colwyn Bay Pier.
In addition, if I did not already have established returning customers, I would not open one on Llandudno Pier either.


Fester...
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Offline Dave

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #601 on: October 26, 2014, 11:20:44 pm »
The article about Hastings Pier makes interesting, inspirational even, reading but when I read it a second time I started to see some unanswered questions, the obvious being once funding from the likes of the Lottery Heritage Fund has been acquired for renovation there isn't a solid plan on how to maintain the pier, no indication where the money is coming from.I think Fester's response illustrates that it might not be that easy making enough from renting out space for retail outlets and the concept of charging for entry won't work either.
When it comes to the justification, is that not another case of manipulating the figures to suit?
69% of Britons have visited a pier in recent years..... recent....how recent ? The UK population is 64m, that means 44m have visited but as only 6m visit piers each year doesn't that mean one visit every 7+ years and that assumes that there are no multiple visits? The reality has to be that the average person probably makes very few visits in a lifetime. Well in my case I think I can say I probably wander on to Llandudno Pier maybe once a year on average but I can also claim to have made a visit to the Colwyn Bay Skip too so you can read in to that statistic what you want.
Not everything in the community has to be justified in monetary terms otherwise we probably wouldn't have many of the arts or even the sports success stories we have in the UK. However, those are backed by government funding.
Ownership by the community is a totally different risk.


Offline BMD

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #602 on: October 26, 2014, 11:57:29 pm »
69% of Britons have visited a pier in recent years..... recent....how recent ? The UK population is 64m, that means 44m have visited but as only 6m visit piers each year doesn't that mean one visit every 7+ years and that assumes that there are no multiple visits?

The actual time period they quote (elsewhere - see link below) is "5 years" ("69% of the UK population have visited a pier within the last 5 years"). I'm not sure how they work out "6 million people a year" from that, but I think they mean at least one visit to at least one pier by a given person in that time period.

It translates into a hell of a lot of visits when you allow for all the people (like me and my friends/relatives) who make multiple repeat visits to more than one pier, but who only count once in the stats.

http://www.uk.coop/pressrelease/seaside-piers-are-threatened-rising-maintenance-costs-and-%C2%A333m-insurance-bill

Offline Ian

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #603 on: October 27, 2014, 08:19:27 am »
Stats are always interesting, more for what they omit than for what they include. Fester's comments about renting are interesting and informative but he's also made a point many times in the past which bears repeating: people who visit holiday resorts for recreation do so in the certain knowledge that whatever funds they choose to allocate for the visit will be removed from them during the visit, usually in return for food and entertainment.

That's the purpose of any holiday destination, after all: to separate the visitor from their money in the most enjoyable and pleasant ways possible. But the total amount of money people bring with them has been in decline for some time, I suspect, so any new projects have to take that into account. For that reason alone, I strongly believe that private investors are the wrong people to run any pier. Companies have as their sole aim the financial return. Trusts, On the other hand , see maintenance and improvement as their duty, and I've seen few examples where the two aims coincide successfully, although there are some. CB's only hope is for a long-term trust to be established, with the hope that it can get the right people on board who are comfortable dealing with a multi-million pound investment for many years to come.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

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Offline SteveH

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #604 on: October 27, 2014, 04:42:36 pm »
I keep re-reading all the comments, but it only throws up more questions......ie after spending the millions on the beach between Porth Eiris and the pier and the new access to C.B. surely it would be better to have an attraction, such as the pier in one form or another.
Is there any history left with the buildings on the pier? ...save the pier worry about what goes on it later?
Would it be better shorter?.... There was an idea of a big wheel?
Colwyn Bay does not have enough accommodation to be a holiday resort at the moment, but with full use of what has been done and a revamped pier I think this would draw visitors to the town.

Offline born2run

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #605 on: October 27, 2014, 04:45:11 pm »
Off topic but sort a decent railway line out from Liverpool and you'd have a lot more day trippers. Over 2 hours for a 50 mile journey is awful!  &shake&

Offline Ian

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #606 on: October 27, 2014, 05:59:30 pm »
Quote
sort a decent railway line out from Liverpool and you'd have a lot more day trippers.

That's exactly why I asked the question about the Halton Curve. That is being restored, so I wanted to know if that meant Liverpool would now only be a single ride away.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline DaveR

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #607 on: October 28, 2014, 10:51:44 am »
I would think that the idea of spending money on the "eye sore" is to restore it to something that the tourest would only be to glad to visit and so bring some more than welcome trade

If you think that spending £10m in that bomb site is money well spent, then so be it.
My partner is about to have her contract cancelled by CCBC, because of all the cut backs, I'm finding any waste of money, whether it be the Skip or the Pier, incredibly frustrating when it could be far better utilised.
I see your point, MM, but pier restoration money would come from the Heritage Lottery Fund, rather than CCBC, so it's not a case of 'either or'.

Perhaps the real question is why are CCBC doggedly determined to demolish the Pier, when they could easily offload it to the Pier Pressure Group/Colwyn Town Council, who are currently preparing a revised HLF bid for funds? Are they afraid that another organisation will get the job done, and further expose their own lack of success is doing ANYTHING properly?

Any news about Bryn's Bistro, btw?

Offline majormellons

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #608 on: October 28, 2014, 12:14:57 pm »
If it can be restored without any cost to CCBC, then it should be restored, no question....but is it really that simple? Unless it is self sustaining, then it well may be another drain on CCBC funds in future.

How can CCBC get funding from the a fore mentioned funds, when the previous owner didn't/couldn't?
Was it due to it being a private enterprise, and any CCBC plan would be a 'not for profit' type scheme?

Offline Dave

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #609 on: October 28, 2014, 12:50:23 pm »
Q. Is the Heritage Lottery Fund a bottomless pit ?

Offline DaveR

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #610 on: October 28, 2014, 12:59:21 pm »
If it can be restored without any cost to CCBC, then it should be restored, no question....but is it really that simple? Unless it is self sustaining, then it well may be another drain on CCBC funds in future.

How can CCBC get funding from the a fore mentioned funds, when the previous owner didn't/couldn't?
Was it due to it being a private enterprise, and any CCBC plan would be a 'not for profit' type scheme?
Yes, private businesses are not eligible for Lottery funding.

It does need to be self sustaining, without a doubt, and I think the right mix of attractions/facilities is absolutely key to this. It will never be a 'goldmine' for a private business, but a Trust might well be able to generate the funds to maintain it. I think they deserve the chance to try.

Offline DaveR

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #611 on: October 28, 2014, 01:01:54 pm »
Q. Is the Heritage Lottery Fund a bottomless pit ?
Pretty much! The Fund is continually topped up through the sterling efforts of Lottery players.  :laugh: It has about £375m to spend every year.

Offline born2run

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #612 on: October 28, 2014, 02:08:05 pm »
As much as I'd like the pier back there are surely better causes for the lottery fund to be spent on than a pier for old people to walk down.

It'll be a boost to local economy therefore it should be locally funded

Offline SteveH

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #613 on: October 28, 2014, 02:53:58 pm »
As much as I'd like the pier back there are surely better causes for the lottery fund to be spent on than a pier for old people to walk down.
it'll be a boost to local economy therefore it should be locally funded
Ask Fester what the ratio is between old and young visiting piers,....during my recent visit, I thought it was a good mix of ages,.... and as for CB pier and the new beach and Porth Eiris , that area is surely gearing up for young families.     

It would be locally funded, by those locals who buy lottery tickets. :)

Offline born2run

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Re: The long running saga of Colwyn Bay Pier
« Reply #614 on: October 28, 2014, 03:01:56 pm »
Apologies - after looking at their website I see compared to some of the other rubbish they fund the pier is quite worthy

http://www.hlf.org.uk/our-projects/gloucester-rugby-football-club-community-heritage-project