Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

Members' Lounge => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: DaveR on February 22, 2016, 11:09:34 AM

Title: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 22, 2016, 11:09:34 AM
As most members will know, the U.K. is holding a Referendum on the 23rd June to determine whether we remain in the European Union. What is your opinion on this and which way will you be voting?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 22, 2016, 03:20:37 PM
I am still on the fence, not keen on the EU as it is, being part of a trading group without all the rules and regs would be fine, will not happen though, some means of controlling imigration robustly would be great too!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2016, 04:45:57 PM
Completely open minded at present but Cameron's dismal attempt at renegotiating with the EU doesn't help.    Britain seems to have to abide by all the EU rules yet Germany can openly invite millions of immigrants into Europe without discussion or arrangements with any of the other EU countries and blatantly ignores the Schengen Treaty
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 22, 2016, 05:14:27 PM
I was shocked at Germany letting that lot in, I imagine most German people were against that!  &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2016, 05:50:26 PM
The few German people I have spoken to said exactly that.    There has been no thought whatsoever to integrating that many people in Germany or transporting them from the point of entry into Europe to Germany.
Now Germany are trying to back track on what they have promised to these Asian people and in addition they are backing Turkey's entry into the EU.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on February 22, 2016, 08:07:35 PM
This EU membership issue polarises opinion, and I fear that when we get to the referendum, most of the questions we have will remain unanswered.
Such is the problem with weighty political matters.
There will be many heated debates on the TV, but the clarity will be lacking as it always is.

One politician will tell us that it disaster will ensue if we leave the EU, the next will pick on the same point but tell us that paradise awaits if we vote to leave.
There will be a lack of hard facts for us to base our opinions on, therefore fear (and greed) is likely to sway most people's decision.
As it stands at the moment, I am likely to abstain.... because I genuinely don't KNOW what will happen, who does?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on February 22, 2016, 11:30:20 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35635438 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35635438)

This 3 minute clip sheds some light on Norway's relationship with the EU, despite being a non-member
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on February 23, 2016, 06:43:59 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35635438 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35635438)

This 3 minute clip sheds some light on Norway's relationship with the EU, despite being a non-member


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/16/eu-exit-norway-option-costs-thinktank (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/16/eu-exit-norway-option-costs-thinktank)

They estimate the Norway option would cost us 94% of what it costs us now but we would have no vote.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on February 23, 2016, 08:12:48 AM
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   Britain seems to have to abide by all the EU rules yet Germany can openly invite millions of immigrants into Europe without discussion or arrangements with any of the other EU countries and blatantly ignores the Schengen Treaty

Not entirely sure Germany 'invited' them all, Hugo.  They were already walking there anyway, and Germany simply offered them a place to stay, as it were. The mass migration we've seen over the past 12 months has largely been unstoppable - unless countries use methods generally seen as unacceptable in a civilised society. 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on February 23, 2016, 08:15:16 AM
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This EU membership issue polarises opinion, and I fear that when we get to the referendum, most of the questions we have will remain unanswered. Such is the problem with weighty political matters.
There will be many heated debates on the TV, but the clarity will be lacking as it always is.

One politician will tell us that disaster will ensue if we leave the EU, the next will pick on the same point but tell us that paradise awaits if we vote to leave. There will be a lack of hard facts for us to base our opinions on, therefore fear (and greed) is likely to sway most people's decision.
As it stands at the moment, I am likely to abstain.... because I genuinely don't KNOW what will happen, who does?

I rarely quote anyone's post in full, but Fester's comment is worthy of very wide distribution. Sadly, I agree with every single word.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 23, 2016, 09:08:24 AM
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Not entirely sure Germany 'invited' them all, Hugo.  They were already walking there anyway, and Germany simply offered them a place to stay, as it were. The mass migration we've seen over the past 12 months has largely been unstoppable - unless countries use methods generally seen as unacceptable in a civilised society.
If the flow of economic migrants continues, then we will no longer have a civilised society to worry about....
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on February 23, 2016, 09:24:21 AM
Firstly they are not economic migrants, but either way that's scarcely relevant as to why you don't think they are civilised?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 23, 2016, 09:38:35 AM
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Firstly they are not economic migrants, but either way that's scarcely relevant as to why you don't think they are civilised?
I didn't say that they weren't civilised? The point I was making was that the civilised society Ian refers to will not remain in place for long if millions of migrants arrive and swamp already overstretched housing, hospitals and education services. It doesn't matter what nationality/colour the migrants are; it's the sheer weight of numbers that will present the problem.

As regards them being economic migrants, if they were merely escaping the war in Syria (and who could blame them for this?), they would just go over the border into Turkey and wait there until the war ended. Why would they need to travel any further?

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on February 23, 2016, 11:03:08 AM
Perhaps because there is already 2 million of them in Turkey? Where is the proof anywhere that migration leads to an uncivilized society?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 23, 2016, 11:59:10 AM
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Perhaps because there is already 2 million of them in Turkey? Where is the proof anywhere that migration leads to an uncivilized society?
There are many other safe countries between Syria and Germany (Romania, Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary, Austria), why would they not simply head for the nearest safe country?

Perhaps you can explain how already overstretched public services can cope with yet more people?  In the UK, for example, we are already short of housing, the NHS is in crisis, education is struggling...how would we cope with yet more people and who would pay for them all?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on February 23, 2016, 12:16:17 PM
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Perhaps because there is already 2 million of them in Turkey? Where is the proof anywhere that migration leads to an uncivilized society?
There are many other safe countries between Syria and Germany (Romania, Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary, Austria), why would they not simply head for the nearest safe country?

Perhaps you can explain how already overstretched public services can cope with yet more people?  In the UK, for example, we are already short of housing, the NHS is in crisis, education is struggling...how would we cope with yet more people and who would pay for them all?

They pay for themselves, most of them are younger and thus work and contribute to the economy. What would we do without foreign doctors?

As for your other question this is a good read - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/ten-myths-migration-europe (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/ten-myths-migration-europe)

‘Basic services such as hospitals and schools collapse’
This is one of the arguments that people who are hostile to immigrants take refuge in. If they come to Europe as citizens with rights, won’t they end up abusing our most valuable benefit, the welfare state?

“There hasn’t been any study showing this link between immigration and the abuse of social services,” says Sergio Carrera, a researcher at the Centre for European Policy Studies, one of the most influential thinktanks in Europe.

Some experts have tried to take the complex task on, of calculating the difference of what immigrants bring to public budgets and what they consume. A recent study by the Migration Policy Centre, using figures from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, shows that foreigners are net contributors (they add more to the state than they spend), across almost the whole continent, apart from in seven countries (with Spain among them).

Still, surveys in Spain show that immigrants are net contributors for health; they get ill less frequently because they tend to be younger and have a more urgent need to be fit for work than the native population.

El País
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 23, 2016, 12:59:39 PM
The article doesn't explain how the severe lack of affordable housing in this country will be helped by thousands upon thousands of migrants coming to live here? How will the 1.7million people who are already unemployed in this country get a job when all these extra people are entering the country looking for work? Where will their children go to school when schools are already overcrowded?

It comes down to those pragmatic questions in the end...where will all the extra houses come from? Where will all the extra jobs come from? Where will all the extra school places come from?

Your answers, please.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on February 23, 2016, 01:41:52 PM
Quote
where will all the extra houses come from?


Figures released by the DotE last year suggested there was adequate housing for everyone in the UK and even enough to account for a 5% increase in population. The problem is not insufficient housing: it's the selfish and greedy who have more than one house, or who sit on large numbers of houses, hoping their value will accumulate. There's a lot of that going on.

Quote
Where will all the extra jobs come from?

Polish immigration to the UK brought over more than three-quarters of a million Poles, yet very few are without work. IME, Poles work  very hard, are more or less keeping the hospitality industry afloat and are generally very pleasant individuals. Obviously, we're not talking about absorbing the entire population of Syria but these things have a way of working themselves out. It's worth remembering, however, societies become richer and more productive from absorbing migrants of all types, and not isolating themselves and excluding them.

Quote
Where will all the extra school places come from?

The DofE maintains a five year rolling plan which accounts for the variations in birthrates. UK citizens born in the UK produced an increase of 25% in the birthrate last year alone, and school places are planned to correspond with those variations.  UK birthrates have a long-term cycle, and the current phase is upward.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on February 23, 2016, 02:12:57 PM
Although these things might have a way of 'working themselves out', it is not usually without a cost, some pain, or a deterioration in the quality of service.
For example, in Stoke, they are short of Maths teachers, so the council will pay off the student loan of any newly graduated Maths teachers. (BBC News today), this is many thousands of pounds being spent by council tax payers as a direct result of a lack of teachers.

A more parochial example; my niece embarked on a 2 year teacher training course, to teach 7-11 year olds in Leeds.
However, after 6 months, they have 'found a way' to make her 'qualified' more quickly, and she and several of her colleagues have been fast-tracked in order to teach children where English is not their first language.

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2016, 02:36:31 PM
Ian,  I wouldn't pay too much attention to statistics from the DotE as statistics can be manipulated in many ways by Goverment Departments or by policies imposed on them by the Government in power.
Take for instance "where will all the extra houses come from?"     If there is already sufficient housing for the needs of the population then why does the Government insist on Councils having a local development plan and making sure that the local authority sticks to the plan?

where will all the extra jobs come from?        It's strange how the UK has such a high amount of unemployed people yet there seems to be a lot of work available for the migrants until you look further into the matter.   You've mentioned the Poles as an example and I can only reiterate that the Poles I know are very hard working.    When the Poles set up in business in the UK they start advertising for employees, but not here in Britain but back home in Poland.    Why is that allowed by the UK?
I'm  no fan of David Cameron, far from it, but he gave an example of a certain type of Benefit being claimed in the UK and of the 28 counties in the EU,  Poland was claiming 41 per cent of the total benefit.  The remaining benefit of 59 per cent was claimed by the other 27  countries.   What he was saying was a fact, yet the Polish Prime Minister had a go at him for saying the truth.
Since the Polish workers have come over here they can claim like any other EU country for child benefits even if the child is not living in the UK.     Perhaps it's no more that a coincidence but the request for child benefits in Poland has risen by 500,000 in that period which does seem strange

where will all the extra houses come from?   Well I can't even begin to think about that one as we are always told that the classrooms are overcrowded and there is a shortage of teachers.   In the inner cities, some with about 72 different languages spoken, how can they possibly cope with all that
.


   
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Neil on February 23, 2016, 05:19:46 PM
Independence Day, 23rd June 2016  $uk
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2016, 06:58:12 PM
Just a correction to the last paragraph in my previous posting, it should of course have read " Where will all the extra school places come from?"         
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on February 28, 2016, 12:07:37 AM
Mr Farage has been strutting his stuff in Llandudno for the last 2 days, staying at the Llandudno Bay hotel, and holding court outside The Albert holding a pint.
I'm surprised no one mentioned it on here?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: bigbadhenry on February 28, 2016, 09:16:21 AM
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Mr Farage has been strutting his stuff in Llandudno for the last 2 days, staying at the Llandudno Bay hotel, and holding court outside The Albert holding a pint.
I'm surprised no one mentioned it on here?

Why would we, he isn't worth bothering with
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on February 28, 2016, 11:06:14 AM
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Mr Farage has been strutting his stuff in Llandudno for the last 2 days, staying at the Llandudno Bay hotel, and holding court outside The Albert holding a pint.
I'm surprised no one mentioned it on here?

Why would we, he isn't worth bothering with

Well, neither are most of the things we chunter on about on here, but it doesn't usually stop us?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2016, 09:47:18 PM
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Mr Farage has been strutting his stuff in Llandudno for the last 2 days, staying at the Llandudno Bay hotel, and holding court outside The Albert holding a pint.
I'm surprised no one mentioned it on here?

Why would we, he isn't worth bothering with

I didn't even realise he was here nor did I know about Jeremy Corbyn being here either.      That's makes two then that are not worth bothering with.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 29, 2016, 10:37:12 AM
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Mr Farage has been strutting his stuff in Llandudno for the last 2 days, staying at the Llandudno Bay hotel, and holding court outside The Albert holding a pint.
I'm surprised no one mentioned it on here?
We saw lots of UKIPers about on Friday night, they seemed to be composed of two main types of people:

1) Short men in cheap suits
2) Nutters
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on February 29, 2016, 11:39:41 AM
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Mr Farage has been strutting his stuff in Llandudno for the last 2 days, staying at the Llandudno Bay hotel, and holding court outside The Albert holding a pint.
I'm surprised no one mentioned it on here?
We saw lots of UKIPers about on Friday night, they seemed to be composed of two main types of people:

1) Short men in cheap suits
2) Nutters

But I am a nutter and had a cheap suit on, which category must I be included in?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 29, 2016, 12:38:22 PM
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Mr Farage has been strutting his stuff in Llandudno for the last 2 days, staying at the Llandudno Bay hotel, and holding court outside The Albert holding a pint.
I'm surprised no one mentioned it on here?
We saw lots of UKIPers about on Friday night, they seemed to be composed of two main types of people:

1) Short men in cheap suits
2) Nutters

But I am a nutter and had a cheap suit on, which category must I be included in?
Both, I imagine?  ;D
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Jelly Baby on March 02, 2016, 04:01:33 AM
I'm a bit confused how someone doing a 2-year teachers training course being "fast-forwarded" to completion within 6 months is a good thing?  ???
Also, from what I've read in the Daily Mail online (and we all know they would never lie to us, would they?!  :-*) there are already schools where entire classes are being held back because most of the children don't even speak English. How is that good for education?  ???
Just saying....
Oh, and now that there's a Cease Fire in place, can't you send those FIT, YOUNG men back home to help with the rebuilding? Even though they seemed awfully reluctant in the first place to defend their own homeland, they would surely be anxious to be a part of its restoration?  :roll:
If I were still a resident in the UK, I know I'd be wanting my country's borders secure, so my vote would be for Brexit, only right now!!
(And I do know about secure borders, we've got them in Oz because our pollies developed backbones! Only for a while, sure, but it was better than the NOTHING your lot are doing!!!)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 02, 2016, 10:00:36 AM
It's not a good thing JB, it's a terrible thing, borne out of desperation.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 02, 2016, 12:01:10 PM
You only have to see the news on TV to realise how desperate those people are but the situation is in a mess.     You don't hear of any mass migration eastwards to the rich Arab countries, it's all into Europe.
Last night on TV it showed the Macedonian border that has been closed and is guarded by troops of various European nationalities.  A large group of people were sat either side of the railway track leading into Macedonia and chanting for the border to be opened.   
Nothing wrong with that some do gooders might say but I noticed that there was not a single woman present in that group.  If those Muslims cannot integrate with their own people how on earth can they integrate with a country that has a different culture, different values and speaks a different language?
Greece now has over a 100,000 illegal immigrants to look after and the number is increasing daily, yet it has it's own financial problems and the Greek tourist industry for 2016 will definitely feel the backlash this Summer.
I believe that Australia's policy is correct for them and I just wish that the UK would introduce a points system for immigration just like Australia has done.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on March 02, 2016, 03:05:41 PM
In my mind their is only one sensible policy to adopt. The migrant / refugees call them what you will, are all making dangerous boat journeys to get to Europe. Thousands of desperate ones have died making the attempt because we have no coherent policies in place to deal with them. We must keep the Navies out in the Mediterranean carrying out their humanitarian rescue duties but instead of landing the rescued in Europe, land them back in North Africa or instead of a Ferry to Athens, a trip back to Bodrum or Marmaris should be the result of any illegal attempt to circumvent our visa requirements. Only then will the message get through and the flood stemmed.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 02, 2016, 04:20:37 PM
From Amnesty International:


    Gulf countries including Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Bahrain have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees.
    Other high income countries including Russia, Japan, Singapore and South Korea have also offered zero resettlement places.
    Germany has pledged 35,000 places for Syrian refugees through its humanitarian admission programme and individual sponsorship; about 75 % of the EU total.
    Germany and Sweden together have received 47% Syrian asylum applications in the EU between April 2011 and July 2015
    Excluding Germany and Sweden, the remaining 26 EU countries have pledged around 8,700 resettlement places, or around 0.2% of Syrian refugees in the main host countries.

So yes: rather a lot of questions for the UAE...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 02, 2016, 05:13:57 PM
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In my mind their is only one sensible policy to adopt. The migrant / refugees call them what you will, are all making dangerous boat journeys to get to Europe. Thousands of desperate ones have died making the attempt because we have no coherent policies in place to deal with them. We must keep the Navies out in the Mediterranean carrying out their humanitarian rescue duties but instead of landing the rescued in Europe, land them back in North Africa or instead of a Ferry to Athens, a trip back to Bodrum or Marmaris should be the result of any illegal attempt to circumvent our visa requirements. Only then will the message get through and the flood stemmed.

I agree with everything that you've said and this present situation must be stopped. It can't be argued where they have sailed from so it's sensible to return them to the country that they came from.
There are a reported number of 6,000 migrants in the jungle in Calais and the French authorities are now clearing the jungle and relocating them to a better camp some distance away and yet the migrants are complaining about that.   The reason for the objections  being that they may have to have their finger prints taken and may have to seek asylum in France!
It's a bit of a cheek really, because finger printing, dna  and photographs should have been done at the point of entry into Europe.   If they are genuine asylum seekers rather than economic migrants they would have sought asylum in the first safe place they landed in and that would have been Greece or Italy
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 03, 2016, 08:54:40 AM
Statistics can be manipulated in many ways and it is often done by Governments in power to make it appear that the situation is better than it actually is.    The UK official  net migration estimate for the year ending (YE) September 2015 is 323,000 and has a 95% confidence interval of +/-37,000   ??

The other night I caught the tail end of the news and wish that I had listened to it properly.    In the news there were a number of MP's who had written to various Government Departments, including the NHS and were asking for information under the Freedom of Information Acts and they had not been supplied with the information and alleged that the present Government were trying to withhold the info they were seeking.

As we are aware Cameron pledged that he would get net migration  down to the tens of thousands whereas we now know that the latest official figure is well over 300,000.      What the MP's on TV were saying was that the real net migration figures could be nearer 900,000   and they needed the figures from the FOI Act to prove it.
It may be that the Government are deliberately withholding this info with the forthcoming reforendum being so near.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on March 03, 2016, 09:22:20 AM
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From Amnesty International:
Gulf countries including Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Bahrain have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees.
It's interesting how they won't offer any assistance to their Muslim brothers.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on March 04, 2016, 08:37:28 AM
It's good to see the European Council President, Donald Tusk, finally stating what has been obvious to most people for the last year. The idea that groups of people can illegally and forcibly enter Europe just because they want to have a better life at the European peoples' expense is obviously not acceptable.

EU's Tusk warns illegal economic migrants: Do not come here

European Council President Donald Tusk has warned illegal economic migrants against coming to Europe, during a new push to solve the EU migrant crisis. He said illegal economic migrants were risking "lives and money" for nothing. Mr Tusk visited Greece and Turkey on Thursday to discuss ways to reduce the flow of migrants travelling west.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35714087 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35714087)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 04, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
It's not before time either and it should be made clear to the illegal migrants that if they do try to enter Europe they will be returned to the country they sailed from. 

On 8 August 1991, several ships carrying approximately 15,000 Albanian migrants succeeded in entering the port of Bari, Italy.  The Italian government’s response was harsh.  Most of the Albanians were detained in a sports stadium without adequate food, water, or access to bathrooms.  Italian authorities dropped supplies to the detained migrants by helicopter.  Within several weeks most of the migrants were deported to Albania.  Their harsh treatment was criticised by human rights organisations and the Pope, but was justified by the Italian government as necessary to deter further irregular migration from Albania.
Now Albania wasn't in the EU at the time and Italy was within it's rights to return the migrants to the country they came from.  These illegal migrants are not from the EU either so why doesn't the EU do it now?
The photos may have Libya on them but the ships actually sailed from Albania
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on March 05, 2016, 03:11:24 PM
Allowing unfettered migration into another Country could lead to unproportional and devastating consequences for the indigenous local population:- 1492 on the native peoples of North and South America or a couple of more modern examples:- 1948 on the illegal occupiers of Palestine. 2008 Serbia lost its historic province of Kosovo because of uncontrolled immigration of Albanian Muslims.

I could have been a bit more controversial and added Wales to the list but as we were made a part of England by the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1543, I'll leave you to make up your own minds on that one.  Something for you to think about. ?{}?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 14, 2016, 08:06:39 PM
Well, the exit camp is increasingly loud and increasingly negative in its approach. Every time someone speaks up in favour of remaining (and a lot of very high achieving individuals have done so) all we hear from the exit camp are cries of 'Rubbish'.  I can't remember hearing one constructive or positive thing from them since the campaign started.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on May 14, 2016, 09:51:48 PM
That's right Ian.   
Remember my post from a few months ago?  I am still no nearer to getting a shred of information that I can base my decision on.   But as I said back then, I was never going to get any was I?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 15, 2016, 07:38:16 AM
Very true...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: peterh on May 15, 2016, 11:11:00 AM
My problem is simply one trust.
Do I trust the elected and non elected members of the EU council?
Unfortunately I do not.

Do I believe that once the referendum is decided will there will be a raft of new regulations that will have a significant impact into our freedoms ,democracy and our way of life generally?
Unfortunately yes I do irrespective of how the vote is decided.

I also believe if the vote is to leave the there are a number of top EU council members who are petty enough to make things very difficult for us for the foreseeable future.

What is correct however is our elected government can be changed every five years if we do not agree with them whereas the EU officials are there to stay and no doubt with time there power will increase significantly. 

In essence I do not trust the EU nor our politicians so my view is I will vote as our sons and there families vote because at my age it is there future I care about and there children who will grow up in what I fear will be a very different life to one I have enjoyed - so let them decide and I will vote as they vote.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on May 15, 2016, 04:17:49 PM
In any election / referendum you should only ever vote for what you think is right for you, never mind what's right for your wife, sons, daughters, parents, friends or neighbours. They have there own vote and that way, democracy should prevail.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: joanne.c on May 15, 2016, 06:44:28 PM
I like the idea of the EU but it does need reform to bring it back to the original purpose it was formed. I worry that many people see this vote as a vote for or against immigration as the many posts before me prove. I vote IN because of the women's and workers rights they have engaged the union in, I am also aware of all the great funding this country (Wales!) gets towards roads, local communities,  small businesses, farming etc. If anyone thinks this government will invest in their communities as the EU have done, they will be sorely disappointed. I think we are safer in the EU to be protected from the TTIP, a very real and frightening prospect. The big guns coming out to support Brexit- Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, hardly the most honest or intelligent of people. No, I'll vote IN whilst under this government, I don't trust the Tories to protect all the rights the EU have given us over the next 4 years. A different government my decision may be different.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 16, 2016, 12:26:54 PM
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In any election / referendum you should only ever vote for what you think is right for you, never mind what's right for your wife, sons, daughters, parents, friends or neighbours. They have there own vote and that way, democracy should prevail.

So by your logic. There are 10 million pensioners in the UK. The 50 million younger people should all gang up and vote to scrap or severely reduce the pension?
Likewise the 57 million working people should all vote to scrap unemployment benefit for the 3 million or so who need it?

 &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on May 16, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
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In any election / referendum you should only ever vote for what you think is right for you, never mind what's right for your wife, sons, daughters, parents, friends or neighbours. They have there own vote and that way, democracy should prevail.

So by your logic. There are 10 million pensioners in the UK. The 50 million younger people should all gang up and vote to scrap or severely reduce the pension?
Likewise the 57 million working people should all vote to scrap unemployment benefit for the 3 million or so who need it?

 &shake&

If only there were 57m working people B2R.....   things might not be so bleak.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 16, 2016, 03:27:21 PM
You're right - forgot about pensioners and children - 38 million working people
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 16, 2016, 04:08:23 PM
Quote
    In any election / referendum you should only ever vote for what you think is right for you, never mind what's right for your wife, sons, daughters, parents, friends or neighbours. They have there own vote and that way, democracy should prevail.
Quote
So by your logic. There are 10 million pensioners in the UK. The 50 million younger people should all gang up and vote to scrap or severely reduce the pension? Likewise the 57 million working people should all vote to scrap unemployment benefit for the 3 million or so who need it?

One big problem with that strategy is that we don't live in a true democracy. Remember, in any General election the parties that win almost invariably have fewer votes than the losers.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on May 16, 2016, 08:45:44 PM
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In any election / referendum you should only ever vote for what you think is right for you, never mind what's right for your wife, sons, daughters, parents, friends or neighbours. They have there own vote and that way, democracy should prevail.
So by your logic. There are 10 million pensioners in the UK. The 50 million younger people should all gang up and vote to scrap or severely reduce the pension?
Likewise the 57 million working people should all vote to scrap unemployment benefit for the 3 million or so who need it?

No way BTR, as the 10 million Pensioners in the UK who mostly have paid their full N.I. contributions into the system are fully entitled to their Pension, as it has been earned and paid for by them. If each successive Government over the years did not make provision to pay what is rightfully ours, that's not the fault of the Pensioners.

If the 3 million unemployed had to report for local council work from 8 to 5 Monday to Friday to get their free and mostly non cotributed unemployment benefit that would be a very good start.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 16, 2016, 10:56:20 PM
I'm still very much undecided about the EU vote as both sides are supplying  misleading information to the public.   There is definitely something wrong with the free movement of people within the EU when it allows unemployed people  to come  and claim unemployment benefit here that is in some cases four times greater than they were receiving in their home country.
On the other hand if we opt out of Europe, would we do anything like the valid point Blongb has suggested   "If the 3 million unemployed had to report for local council work from 8 to 5 Monday to Friday to get their free and mostly non contributed unemployment benefit that would be a very good start."
I very much doubt if it would be done, but it's wrong when a section of society that is physically and mentally capable of work refuses to  work but expects to receive something for nothing


Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 17, 2016, 08:48:59 AM
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You're right - forgot about pensioners and children - 38 million working people
Afraid not, there are 31.41 million people in work, as of February 2016.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/april2016 (http://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/april2016)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 17, 2016, 08:57:34 AM
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In any election / referendum you should only ever vote for what you think is right for you, never mind what's right for your wife, sons, daughters, parents, friends or neighbours. They have there own vote and that way, democracy should prevail.
So by your logic. There are 10 million pensioners in the UK. The 50 million younger people should all gang up and vote to scrap or severely reduce the pension?
Likewise the 57 million working people should all vote to scrap unemployment benefit for the 3 million or so who need it?

No way BTR, as the 10 million Pensioners in the UK who mostly have paid their full N.I. contributions into the system are fully entitled to their Pension, as it has been earned and paid for by them. If each successive Government over the years did not make provision to pay what is rightfully ours, that's not the fault of the Pensioners.

If the 3 million unemployed had to report for local council work from 8 to 5 Monday to Friday to get their free and mostly non cotributed unemployment benefit that would be a very good start.

I totally agree! But you said "In any election / referendum you should only ever vote for what you think is right for you"
Paying all our money out to pensioners doesn't benefit me in the slightest but I support it because I know it's right.
That's where you were wrong in saying that you should only ever vote for things that benefit yourself.

As for your last point if all the jobless go and do council work from 8 till 5 for free! What are all the council workers going to do? They won't need there jobs anymore so they will be unemployed so they will have to go back and do their own council job...for free!
Not the best logic I'm afraid ££$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 17, 2016, 09:11:37 AM
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As for your last point if all the jobless go and do council work from 8 till 5 for free! What are all the council workers going to do? They won't need there jobs anymore so they will be unemployed so they will have to go back and do their own council job...for free!
Not the best logic I'm afraid ££$
I suspect Blongb means doing work additional to that currently carried out by under resourced Council staff - there are certainly many public areas  that would benefit from a tidyup etc.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on May 17, 2016, 11:44:52 AM
Spot on Dave.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 17, 2016, 12:09:02 PM
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As for your last point if all the jobless go and do council work from 8 till 5 for free! What are all the council workers going to do? They won't need there jobs anymore so they will be unemployed so they will have to go back and do their own council job...for free!
Not the best logic I'm afraid ££$
I suspect Blongb means doing work additional to that currently carried out by under resourced Council staff - there are certainly many public areas  that would benefit from a tidyup etc.

Then it sounds like there are jobs that should be created if the council doesn't have enough people to do them. That means jobs iwth a minimum wage, annual leave, sickness benefits etc I think that would be preferable than the slavery Blongb is suggesting.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 17, 2016, 12:14:28 PM
Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me.  &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 17, 2016, 12:48:38 PM
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Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me.  &shake&
But, on the other hand, you're suggesting it is fair for them to receive the money in exchange for doing nothing at all...?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on May 17, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
I think that Blongb touches on a point here that many feel feel uneasy with, money for nothing for economic migrants and for those who choose not to work. The balance between benefits and work is difficult, I have had part time staff that refuse to do more hours because it affects their benefits, and people who came for interviews because if they didn't attend, it jeopardises their 'job seekers allowance', and they don't want the job anyway because it not worth working when they can get money for nothing from the state topped up by cash in hand work when they feel like it. 

I personally believe that claimants should put something back into society, perhaps by doing some kind of community work a couple of days a week and I also believe that everyone, not just immigrants, should have a five year proven work record before they should be able to access benefits and social housing.     
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 17, 2016, 03:36:53 PM
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Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me.  &shake&
But, on the other hand, you're suggesting it is fair for them to receive the money in exchange for doing nothing at all...?

Quite simply yes. If they didn't have that money they would have three options.

1) Starve to death
2) Go to a food bank (which WE also pay for)
3) Rob people

I prefer option 4) receive a paltry hand out (£57) to keep them alive until they find work. That is what the welfare state is and it's something Britain should be proud of.

   
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on May 17, 2016, 04:47:04 PM
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Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me.  &shake&
But, on the other hand, you're suggesting it is fair for them to receive the money in exchange for doing nothing at all...?

Quite simply yes. If they didn't have that money they would have three options.

1) Starve to death
2) Go to a food bank (which WE also pay for)
3) Rob people

I prefer option 4) receive a paltry hand out (£57) to keep them alive until they find work. That is what the welfare state is and it's something Britain should be proud of.

   

5) Work.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 17, 2016, 05:05:23 PM
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Just before anyone chimes in and suggest it wouldn't be slavery

Jobseekers allowance for under 25s is £57.35 - you're suggesting they work from 8 until 5 - (lets give them an hour unpaid lunch break why not) that's working 8 hours a day -  you want them to do it 5 days a week  - that's 40 hours a week so their hourly wage would be £1.43 per hour.

That doesn't sound like a fair wage for a fair work to me.  &shake&
But, on the other hand, you're suggesting it is fair for them to receive the money in exchange for doing nothing at all...?

Quite simply yes. If they didn't have that money they would have three options.

1) Starve to death
2) Go to a food bank (which WE also pay for)
3) Rob people

I prefer option 4) receive a paltry hand out (£57) to keep them alive until they find work. That is what the welfare state is and it's something Britain should be proud of.

   

5) Work.

Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability


^^ what so you suggest we do with these people?

Because I think the welfare state has pretty much covered it and that's why we need it.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on May 17, 2016, 05:18:02 PM
Message from planet earth to B2R:

1.  Talk to any employer in the UK about the problems with obtaining staff.

2.  Why to you think that we have so many economic migrants? It's because we have plenty of jobs, but our benefits system makes them unattractive to many that are in receipt of welfare payments. 

Of course we have a welfare system for those who deserve it, but the discussion was about those that could work but choose not to.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 17, 2016, 05:25:43 PM
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Message from planet earth to B2R:

1.  Talk to any employer in the UK about the problems with obtaining staff.

2.  Why to you think that we have so many economic migrants? It's because we have plenty of jobs, but our benefits system makes them unattractive to many that are in receipt of welfare payments. 

Of course we have a welfare system for those who deserve it, but the discussion was about those that could work but choose not to.

So how exactly do you separate those who deserve it from those who choose not to? Making people work for five years before they get anything doesn't work because of the reasons I've explained above. Have you got any other ideas?

and in response

1) - thousands of people turn up at job fairs all the time (http://www.expressandstar.com/business/2014/05/15/thousands-turn-out-for-molineux-jobs-fair/imgid3345966/ (http://www.expressandstar.com/business/2014/05/15/thousands-turn-out-for-molineux-jobs-fair/imgid3345966/)) one example but there are many, many more

2) We don't have so many economic migrants who come justfor benefits - most come to work and do work and make our economy better (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/18/mass-eu-migration-into-britain-is-actually-good-news-for-uk-economy (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/18/mass-eu-migration-into-britain-is-actually-good-news-for-uk-economy))
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 18, 2016, 07:59:40 AM
As a long time believer in the welfare state, I do have one question for B2R: in that 6-point list you provided, how many of those items are through choice or self-inflicted?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 18, 2016, 09:06:51 AM
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Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 18, 2016, 09:08:50 AM
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As a long time believer in the welfare state, I do have one question for B2R: in that 6-point list you provided, how many of those items are through choice or self-inflicted?

Through choice, possibly 1 - Self inflicted - again possibly, up to 3
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 18, 2016, 09:10:27 AM
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Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.

No DaveR we are talking about benefits in general in response to the post by Bosun.

"I also believe that everyone, not just immigrants, should have a five year proven work record before they should be able to access benefits and social housing"
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 18, 2016, 09:35:10 AM
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Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.

No DaveR we are talking about benefits in general in response to the post by Bosun.

"I also believe that everyone, not just immigrants, should have a five year proven work record before they should be able to access benefits and social housing"
I think you've confused things a little, as you quoted your own comment about Jobseekers Allowance and not Bosun's post about a 5 year work record in your reply at 5.05pm yesterday.  aaa.gif
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: pkevin on May 18, 2016, 10:04:28 AM
The Spectator Debate: Should Britain leave the EU?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYTJGBBjkGo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYTJGBBjkGo)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 18, 2016, 11:17:03 AM
And there's always Brexit - the Movie,  by the same bloke who produced the controversial (and comprehensively debunked) 2007 documentary The Great Global Warming Swindle, and somewhat less well known for an episode of NASA's Unexplained Files titled "Did We Nuke Jupiter?"?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 18, 2016, 12:45:28 PM
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Had a bet with myself I would get that reply! The following circumstances would rule out option 5

1) No Jobs available - If you think anyone can walk into a job these days you are living in a cloud cuckoo land.
2) Disability so severe the person is unable to work
3) Mental illness so severe the person is unable to work
4) Newly born child
5) severe drug or alcohol addiction
6) caring for someone full time with a disability

I thought we were talking about Jobseekers Allowance? Numbers 2 - 6 of your reasons would not apply in that case. And, if 'no jobs are available', then how did the 31,410,000 currently in UK employment get work?!

Certainly, getting a job isn't easy. But, as we all should know, nothing worthwhile in life is easy.

No DaveR we are talking about benefits in general in response to the post by Bosun.

"I also believe that everyone, not just immigrants, should have a five year proven work record before they should be able to access benefits and social housing"
I think you've confused things a little, as you quoted your own comment about Jobseekers Allowance and not Bosun's post about a 5 year work record in your reply at 5.05pm yesterday.  aaa.gif

Then that was a user error  :rage: Although I don't think people should have to wait 5 years to get jobseekers allowance either.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 18, 2016, 01:03:09 PM
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Message from planet earth to B2R:

1.  Talk to any employer in the UK about the problems with obtaining staff.

2.  Why to you think that we have so many economic migrants? It's because we have plenty of jobs, but our benefits system makes them unattractive to many that are in receipt of welfare payments. 

Of course we have a welfare system for those who deserve it, but the discussion was about those that could work but choose not to.

I agree completely with everything that you have said and the benefit system is in need of immediate reform.     It's morally wrong and financially unsustainable to have a system in place that allows:-
Unemployed immigrants to enter the UK for the sole purpose of remaining unemployed and yet receive up to four times more money in benefits in the UK than they had received in their own country
For those immigrants that do work, why should the UK be paying benefits for a wife and child who live abroad, shouldn't the wife and child be claiming those benefits from the country that they actually live in.

As for the argument on those people who are able to work but refuse to work, just what is wrong with expecting them to be made to do some form of work.   It's not taking jobs away from others, it could be jobs helping the community because of the financial limitations of local authorities.
No one should be encouraged to think that they can get through life without working and just living off the backs of those  that are prepared to work.
What I find inconceivable and just annoying are people who support the minority who don't want to work and also refuse to work.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 18, 2016, 02:34:15 PM
Thing is I doubt much of that would change if we left the EU.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on May 18, 2016, 06:44:03 PM
Here, I write from experience; not quoting some stringer journalist whose aim in writing is to lend support to some party or another or to make headlines to sell newsprint, but from my own experience of over 30 years of voluntary work with the handicapped and disabled, and many more years than that of working within the inner city environs. And, as Fawlty said 'at the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious', the welfare state is there for the disabled and handicapped. But, the Welfare State has created an adverse effect; a social group, now in some cases of several generations, that completely and honestly believe that they have a god given right to money, housing and healthcare without having to contribute a thing in return. They are more than happy to live on the verges of society, on smuggled cigarettes and alcohol, who see crime as acceptable and producing children as an income. Prison to them, is, in the words of Dick Clement and Ian La Frenais, 'an occupational hazard'. I have seen countless initiatives where money has been thrown at the problem with new housing, schools and social projects, but that hardcore bring it all back down to their level. And whilst they can have money and housing without giving anything back in return, nothing will change.

No-one can rightly have anything against migrants that come here to work, it's the migrants that come here, through Greece, then Italy, then Germany, then France because our benefits system and healthcare is generous and available that are the issue. It's why the Calais camps exist. They are not the working migrants that add to our cosmopolitan society, they are the ones that add to the pressures on the welfare state, housing and health care.

And I should add, I'm the son of a penniless refugee who landed on these shore in 1940, soaking wet with only the clothes he stood up in. After five years in the Armed Forces, he was naturalised British and adored his adopted home. He worked until he dropped and never recieved a penny in state benefits. So, it would be difficult for anyone to convince me that migrants and refugee's don't add anything to British society.

It's the type of migrant and refugee that counts. In the same way we currently have undesirable members of society who are a relentless drain on ever more scarce social resources.

 

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on May 18, 2016, 08:41:49 PM
Bosun,  one of the best posts I've ever read on this Forum  $good$ $good$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 18, 2016, 10:57:08 PM
I was thinking exactly the same Fester and all Bosun's comments are sincere and based on his own experience.   His last paragraph saying  "It's the type of migrant and refugee that counts. In the same way we currently have undesirable members of society who are a relentless drain on ever more scarce social resources."  is especially relevant in this day and age.
The UK has an outstanding reputation for helping refugees in the past and as Bosun has said it's the type of refugee that counts.   I have a friend who was one of the last of the Winton children to be rescued and he integrated into society, learnt English and has worked all his wife.  In the primary school I was in there was a nice young girl there from Hungary who was a refugee from the Hungarian uprising in 1956 and she too easily integrated into society and quickly learnt English. 
I hope that the UK continues to accept genuine refugees and immigrants but it should be able to have more control over its borders than it does have now





Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 19, 2016, 07:45:53 AM
One thing that I find dispiriting is the way the Brexit camp keeps reporting immigration figures but never emigration. A surprisingly large number leave the UK every year but that figure is never quoted. As an aside, Hugo, the UK has control over its borders and can refuse entry to anyone, if it so wishes. It's a dangerous myth that we have to let anyone - EU citizens included - into the UK. There are numerous grounds on which entrance to the UK can be refused to anyone and the EU’s 2004 citizenship directive makes it clear that the free movement of people within the EU is not an unqualified right and can be restricted on grounds of “public policy, public security or public health”.

So if we're letting people in that we ought not to it's not the fault of the EU: it's almost certainly ours. Since the current administration slashed the numbers of border control officers and custom officers, of course, it's a lot easier for miscreants to gain entry.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 19, 2016, 08:04:27 AM
In terms of resource abuse, which is the main concern of many, I'm unsure as to how much if that goes on. Certainly, the gutter press, led by the DFM, delight in screaming headlines but the Glasgow Media Group has found that a very high proportion of those headlines were uncorroborated, misleading or - in some cases - simply made up. And that's one huge danger when we're dealing with a privately owned press, who seek only to sell papers through sensationalised reporting. The Guardian and Observer are the only two papers owned by a Trust, so can reasonably be expected to be free of the need to fabricate in order to make a profit (neither does, in fact).

I suspect most system abuse takes place with UK born and bred individuals. There's a proportion of the working-age population who prefer not to work, and whose social service case files make for fascinating, if depressing, reading. Every city has some of these people and unless society acts to break the vicious spiral of bad parenting producing amoral children who then become, in turn, bad parents the problem is only going to get worse. But we need an intelligent and considered approach to dealing with the problem and not a hysterical, knee-jerk reaction to more DFM headlines.

But it's also intriguing the way Farage's party never discusses the resident UK population who leech on the system. Could that possibly be because UKIP's entire persona is aimed at that group? From shots of the privately-educated Farage downing a pint to the various statements from party activists designed to engender hatred the entire UKIP machine is reminiscent of a more subtle version of the National Front.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 19, 2016, 09:24:17 AM
Both Ian and Bosuns last posts were excellent. Can't argue with either  $good$


Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 19, 2016, 12:14:19 PM
Ian, the statistics that the Government release are usually net migration figures and that will include people coming into the UK and people also leaving the UK.
The statistics for Sept 2015 show a net migration of 323,000  of which 172,000 is net migration from within Europe and 191,00 net migration outside of Europe.
Now 323,000 net migration is far greater than the tens of thousands that Cameron promised some time ago.   These figures are disputed anyway by MP's who believe that the true net migration figure is nearer one million and some MP's are obtaining information  under the FOI Act to enable them to disprove these Government figures.
As for control of our own Borders then you only have to watch TV programmes like Border Force UK to see how much control we actually have.  It would be unwise of me to say anything about the situation other than that it is dire.
We should be able to pick and choose who we want to come to the UK and should have a points system similar to Australia.   The UK will benefit from having  skilled English speaking immigrants and also keeping the doors open to genuine asylum seekers.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 19, 2016, 04:03:02 PM
We do have the Australian points system (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29594642), Hugo. This link (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjrvJrysebMAhWEJhoKHao-A3MQFgg3MAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F517630%2Fggfr_sec2_v26_0_ext.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF5YiO6YXeTb8btHaZE-KBmnrkn7A&sig2=WOgxfGNQh9Gf3aPMc9lgdg&bvm=bv.122448493,d.d2s) is to a pdf which forms the basic manual for border control officers. But one thing is interesting: rather like accident lawyers there are lawyers who specialise in aiding immigrants to enter the UK.

Looking at the ONS stats for immigration it would appear that the sectors increasing the most are long term immigration for study and asylum seekers. But none of that changes the fact that we can refuse anyone. There may be many reasons why we don't, but we can if we wish to, and I seriously doubt that leaving the EU would make things any better in that regard.

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 20, 2016, 08:45:23 AM
Express, Telegraph and DFM censured (http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/may/19/three-newspapers-to-be-reported-to-ipso-over-inaccurate-eu-stories?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Media+Briefing+new+v2&utm_term=172957&subid=2664260&CMP=ema_546) for publishing lies regarding Brexit.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 20, 2016, 08:49:41 AM
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Express, Telegraph and DFM censured (http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/may/19/three-newspapers-to-be-reported-to-ipso-over-inaccurate-eu-stories?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Media+Briefing+new+v2&utm_term=172957&subid=2664260&CMP=ema_546) for publishing lies regarding Brexit.
Somewhat ironically, your post is inaccurate as well, Ian! The newspapers have not been censured, but merely reported to IPSO by a Pro-EU organisation - the complaints against them have not even been investigated yet, let alone concluded.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 20, 2016, 09:00:05 AM
The group reporting them is doing the censuring, Dave:  "It cites each one as failing to adhere to the clause about accuracy in the editors’ code of practice. InFacts argues that the papers have breached the code by failing to “take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information or images, including headlines not supported by the text.”  According to the group’s editor-in-chief, Hugo Dixon, if the papers had taken care, they would have known that they were contravening the code.

He is also calling on Ipso to fast-track the InFacts complaint because, if it is dealt with in the normal manner, there is a strong likelihood that any ruling would occur after the 23 June EU referendum vote.  For example, it took two months before Ipso announced its adjudication on the Buckingham Palace complaint about the Sun’s “Queen backs Brexit” front page."

IPSO often takes a long time to respond to complaints, despite that very often the evidence is pretty clear cut.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 20, 2016, 09:55:09 AM
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The group reporting them is doing the censuring, Dave:  "It cites each one as failing to adhere to the clause about accuracy in the editors’ code of practice. InFacts argues that the papers have breached the code by failing to “take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information or images, including headlines not supported by the text.”  According to the group’s editor-in-chief, Hugo Dixon, if the papers had taken care, they would have known that they were contravening the code.

He is also calling on Ipso to fast-track the InFacts complaint because, if it is dealt with in the normal manner, there is a strong likelihood that any ruling would occur after the 23 June EU referendum vote.  For example, it took two months before Ipso announced its adjudication on the Buckingham Palace complaint about the Sun’s “Queen backs Brexit” front page."

IPSO often takes a long time to respond to complaints, despite that very often the evidence is pretty clear cut.
But they are openly a Pro-Eu group and, as such, hardly objective in the matter!

"InFacts is a journalistic enterprise making the fact-based case for Britain to remain in the European Union. "
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 20, 2016, 10:06:26 AM
Very true, but the Express and DFM in particular have a long track record of printing misleading stories. The Telegraph is pro-brexit, but offers substantially more objective reporting on the issue. But I'd always be wary of any privately-owned newspaper purporting to print the objective facts and nothing else.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 20, 2016, 10:08:21 AM
The in-built delay IPSO has for ruling is also interesting: it would mean that a paper was free to print anything it wanted about the EU, secure in the knowledge that it wouldn't be picked up until after the vote.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on May 20, 2016, 11:40:01 AM
I watched BBC Question Time last night, in an attempt to garner some real facts to help me, if (and it's a massive IF), I decide to cast a vote in the EU referendum.

It was an absolute shambles as every time an audience member asked a perfectly reasonable question, it was met by one of the panel members roaring back with what each of them described as FACTS.  These 'facts' were diametrically opposed and should not be allowed to be represented as such.
At one point, the UKIP panel member even said 'well, we will have to agree that we are using different facts'.   Unbelievable.

The most venerable Mr Dimbleby, presiding, seemed incredibly frustrated with what he was being asked to deal with.  He must be looking around the table at this shower, wondering what happened to the real 'statesmen' that he used to rub shoulders with.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 20, 2016, 12:18:39 PM
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I watched BBC Question Time last night, in an attempt to garner some real facts to help me, if (and it's a massive IF), I decide to cast a vote in the EU referendum.

It was an absolute shambles as every time an audience member asked a perfectly reasonable question, it was met by one of the panel members roaring back with what each of them described as FACTS.  These 'facts' were diametrically opposed and should not be allowed to be represented as such.
At one point, the UKIP panel member even said 'well, we will have to agree that we are using different facts'.   Unbelievable.

The most venerable Mr Dimbleby, presiding, seemed incredibly frustrated with what he was being asked to deal with.  He must be looking around the table at this shower, wondering what happened to the real 'statesmen' that he used to rub shoulders with.

(http://epguides.com/NewStatesman/cast.jpg)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 20, 2016, 12:24:40 PM
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We do have the Australian points system (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29594642), Hugo. This link (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjrvJrysebMAhWEJhoKHao-A3MQFgg3MAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F517630%2Fggfr_sec2_v26_0_ext.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF5YiO6YXeTb8btHaZE-KBmnrkn7A&sig2=WOgxfGNQh9Gf3aPMc9lgdg&bvm=bv.122448493,d.d2s) is to a pdf which forms the basic manual for border control officers. But one thing is interesting: rather like accident lawyers there are lawyers who specialise in aiding immigrants to enter the UK.

Looking at the ONS stats for immigration it would appear that the sectors increasing the most are long term immigration for study and asylum seekers. But none of that changes the fact that we can refuse anyone. There may be many reasons why we don't, but we can if we wish to, and I seriously doubt that leaving the EU would make things any better in that regard.

On paper it seems that we do already have the powers to accept and deport immigrants but in the real world this is far from straight forward.  If you take the extreme examples of Abu Hamza al-Masri and Abu Quatada it took many years and millions of pounds before they were extradited.    Then again if you see the TV programme Border Force UK many nationalities get arrested by the Customs Officers but are not detained for deportation simply because those UK officers cannot find documentation for those people arrested,   Surely it is up to those arrested individuals to prove their identity to the UK Government rather than vice versa,
What simply happens is that details of the individuals are taken and then those individuals are released in to the community but given instructions to report to Police Stations or similar at set intervals.
It doesn't take a genius to work out what will happen next and the illegals just abscond.  This process just continues if that individual gets caught again which seems to be a pointless exercise.
Like you I don't believe that anything will change even if we leave the EU
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on May 20, 2016, 04:53:57 PM
I have always regarded Jeremy Paxman as a thoroughly decent journalist, (especially after his wonderful demolition of the pompous Michael Howard) and watched his programme 'Paxman in Brussels - Who Really Rules Us' with interest. There is no doubt that the aim of the EU is to make a 'Federal State of Europe' and I think that the real decision on 23 June is whether we want to be part of that Federal State, and governed by it, and it would be more honest of the 'Remainers' to be clear about that.

That having been said, there are advantages to a FSE, but I personally have huge reservations about going in that direction, the Euro is a precarious currency and the 'EU' is becoming unwieldy with Eastern European and middle eastern countries lined up to join with all the issues they bring, for example, Turkey's appalling record on human rights, including genocide, lack of free speech, blatant official corruption etc. Having spent time in Turkey, it has to be said that it has nothing in common with EU countries. Also, I don't like being threatened by Francois Hollande that Britain would face 'consequences' if we left the EU, that to me was a step too far. However, I do love Europe, for example, the Dutch are lovely, Spain is great, French wine is superb, we can learn a lot from European countries, but do we want to be part of them, and ruled by them?

I consider this referendum to be the most important national vote in my life time, and the result will effect generations to come.

Slowly, I am coming to the conclusion that a 'Remain' vote will bolster the advent of a Federal State of Europe and embolden the EU's power to crush member nations sovereignty and I don't like what the additional proposed EU states would bring to the table.

I think that you can guess where my x is going........       

 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: pkevin on May 21, 2016, 10:48:20 AM
I agree with Bosun, this is about sovereignty.  We had a civil war hundreds of years ago so we could have elected representatives to make laws, not an unelected commissioners who can't be removed from office.     I am worried about the direction the Eu is going, it's more interested in expansion by bringing in new members, has it's own flag and anthem, a currency that could crash, talk of an EU army and has not had it's finances audited and signed of in 11 years.  The EU as it stand at the moment is not fit for purpose the EEC was, it needs reform and maybe leaving could make this happen.  It would be good for Britain and good for the rest of Europe.  If we vote to stay it may be a good idea to put into legerslation that we hold a referendum on membership every 10 years or so just in case thing go wrong with the EU in the future.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 21, 2016, 10:58:50 AM
It's be an even better idea if we could vote on laws passed by the UK Parliament.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: pkevin on May 21, 2016, 11:00:36 AM
With today's tech that could be possible
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 21, 2016, 11:03:20 AM
That is a very good summing up of the situation Bosun and I just wish that I had seen that programme.   We do get on with our European neighbours and will continue to do so in the future as we have so much in common with them.
It's Governments that cause the problem and as the EU expands it will create more problems here.   It will be like history repeating itself as eventually all Empires implode on themselves and often with dire consequences.
I'm afraid that Angela Merkel has started the decline of the EU by openly inviting unlimited migration into Eorope and as for Turkey being invited to join the EU then that would be the final straw for Europe.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on May 21, 2016, 12:57:03 PM
I found this article interesting.......

We pay, but have no say: that’s the reality of Norway’s relationship with the EU

"As a former foreign minister of Norway, I am following Britain’s debate about its future relationship with the European Union with great interest. I have been struck by how a group of politicians hold my own country, Norway, aloft as a model to which to aspire. However, the way the Norwegian relationship with the EU is portrayed does not necessarily correspond to reality as I have experienced it. "
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 21, 2016, 02:14:31 PM
That's very interesting. I still haven't decided but I accept Bosun's well-reasoned argument about Federalisation; that's clearly the way the EU itself is going. However, since I've been delving deeply (over the past couple of weeks) into all things EU I have discovered, for instance, that we retain all the rights many of the tabloids are suggesting we don't. We can deport, we can refuse entry on several grounds, we're not signed up to Schengen and - in short - our own governance is pretty much as it's always been. We may not choose to exercise all those rights, as Hugo suggests, and the mass migration over the past year or so has been exceptional in many ways. But the fact is that modern societies and cultures have become significantly interdependent over the past 50 years and it's likely that even if we leave we'd have to continue trading with our neighbours and we'd still be reliant on them for many things.

The article above does seem to suggest that countries remaining outside the EU still sign up to many EU treaties, trade agreements and so forth, but the problem is that we would no longer have any say in what the EU decides. But one paragraph in the article is particularly concerning:

"Those campaigning for Britain to leave the EU and chose the Norwegian way can hence correctly claim that a country can retain access to the single market from outside the EU. What is normally not said, however, is that this also means retaining all the EU’s product standards, financial regulations, employment regulations, and substantial contributions to the EU budget. A Britain choosing this track would, in other words, keep paying, it would be “run by Brussels”, and it would remain committed to the four freedoms, including free movement."
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Cambrian on May 21, 2016, 03:23:41 PM
Federations rarely last if one component is profoundly unhappy with what they see as undemocratic arrangements eg Nyasaland (Central African Federation) and Jamaica (West Indies Federation). Singapore simply left the Malaysian Federation and has done very well for itself ever since.



Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Jelly Baby on May 22, 2016, 09:11:53 AM
I've read with interest all of the comments and one thing has become clear, at least to me: the majority of contributors to this topic have been concerned with border control and immigration, especially that part that impinges on benefits, housing, schools, etc. I wonder if any part of the Govt, whether it be pro-EU or pro-Brexit, has been listening to a word we've said?  ??? Figures have been thrown about at random, but in reality, the figures don't matter so much as the concern that lies behind it all. There must be many other items that need to be addressed before a true picture can emerge, but the pro and anti people are instead using anything they can to force people onto their "side", irrespective of what's really good for Britain.  >>> That should be the only "side" in this whole debate: What is best for Britain's future?
But there again, that's a bit too simplistic, innit?! :roll:
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 22, 2016, 12:16:09 PM
What is best for the UK's future is the important thing but you can't trust the present day Politicians who are feeding us with speculation and misinformation.
Cameron has said that Turkey will not be allowed into the EU for decades but on the Andrew Neil show today, Lord David Owen, who I believe to be a  good politician said that Cameron had signed a document nine weeks ago that would accelerate Turkey's entry into the EU.
Cameron also recently made a statement in which he said that Muslim women will be given five years to improve their ability to speak English or else they will be returned to their home country.    It's a stupid statement to be made by a PM as he knows by past experience that he can't do it because of EU rules.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on May 23, 2016, 12:31:30 PM
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I've read with interest all of the comments and one thing has become clear, at least to me: the majority of contributors to this topic have been concerned with border control and immigration,

Amazing isn't it? Considering Wales has such a tiny amount of migration

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/press-releases/changes-migrant-population-wales-2001-2011 (http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/press-releases/changes-migrant-population-wales-2001-2011)

These figures are only up to 2011 but this report is a little more recent

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/latest-migration-stats-show-rise-5803534 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/latest-migration-stats-show-rise-5803534)

I really don't see what all the fuss is about  $walesflag$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 04, 2016, 11:04:57 AM
This is what the polls tell us about the EU referendum.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/eu-referendum-polls-divided-age-11418114 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/eu-referendum-polls-divided-age-11418114)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 04, 2016, 11:16:14 AM
Yes... Seems about right.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 07, 2016, 10:03:13 AM
I'm not a Daily Mirror reader, I dislike the paper on several levels, but I came across this article by Martin Lewis who I do have time for and it does make a sensible non-partisan view on the debate. It's well worth reading for it's factual financial content.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255#ICID=sharebar_facebook (http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255#ICID=sharebar_facebook)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 07, 2016, 12:05:01 PM
I agree.  It's a very fair summary of the issues.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 07, 2016, 12:29:31 PM
It's a shame that there is so little impartial information available.
As it stands, I still cannot bring myself to vote at all.
It appears that if we leave the EU, it will spell the end of the world,  but if we stay in we face Armageddon.   I don't want my vote to be responsible for either of those eventualities.

Yesterday, I watched with deep dismay, the Victoria Derbyshire debate, where a large group of 'Remain' voters, and a large group of 'Leave' voters lambasted each other for an hour, and it got completely out of control.
The 'undecided' people invited along can have made no progress whatsoever.
So heated have I seen some debates getting, that I am surprised they haven't yet come to blows, maybe it will nearer the time?

I wonder what will happen if we we leave the EU, and the young generation who want Brady to stay in feel aggrieved?  There's no going back,  we could see some serious backlash.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 07, 2016, 04:31:04 PM
Which ever side you are on in the in or out referendum on Europe,  I don't think anyone can argue that we do have absolute control on our borders at present.
We are not part of the Schengen Agreement  and Albania is not part of the EU yet 18 Albanians arrived on our shores recently and as far as I am aware are still here.
They are not asylum seekers or otherwise they would have claimed asylum in Greece, Italy or any other country that they have passed through.  They are simply illegal migrants.
Australia would simply put them on the next plane back home so why can't we?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 08, 2016, 07:40:24 AM
That specific issue won't be changed one way or another, though. The odd thing is that we do have the instruments to control immigration;  it's simply that no government has chosen to use them.

Quote
Yesterday, I watched with deep dismay, the Victoria Derbyshire debate, where a large group of 'Remain' voters, and a large group of 'Leave' voters lambasted each other for an hour, and it got completely out of control. The 'undecided' people invited along can have made no progress whatsoever.

I've noticed the worrying tendency for folk to ally themselves, strongly, to one side or another and become increasingly unpleasant and vociferous in stating their convictions. What makes it even stranger is that there's little real information on which to base their seemingly entrenched views, although I have a feeling that the pro-leave press, mostly owned by the egregious Murdoch and other expats, such as the Barclay Brothers, and of course the DFM owner, Viscount Rothermere Baron Rothermere, whose tax affairs have been contrived to see him pay almost no tax on the hundreds of millions of pounds in DMGT dividends channelled over the years through Bermudan-registered Rothermere Continuation Ltd into the trust of which he and his family are beneficiaries, may be having some influence.

And here's a thought: if the ex-pat or tax-dodging segment of the press are pushing so hard to Leave, perhaps that can only be because they hope to gain something out of it? I doubt it's from the goodness of their hearts...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 08, 2016, 11:09:05 AM
Now, now Ian,  don't let the affection you have for the DFM cloud your judgement on this issue, try and stay focused.   
 I'm still undecided and the only thing I know for certain is that there are a lot of liars in Parliament.  To say they are economical with the truth is an understatement.
As regards your comment  that we do have the instruments to control immigration then why hasn't any UK Government had the nerve to do what the Australian Government does and put them back on the next available plane.
We need to toughen up our rules on immigration and get the resources out there to deal with the problem
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 08, 2016, 01:58:09 PM
 _))* _))*

On immigration, if you really look into it you'll find that successive governments have held back from implementation on several grounds including (but not limited to) skills shortage, commonwealth reciprocal relationships, University funding and a lot more. As I say the issue is not the EU but rather expediency. The other factor is that the Tory government some years ago virtually demolished Customs when they introduced the Border force, slashed jobs in HMRC and Customs and then sat back and wondered how that had worked out for themselves.

On In or Out there are no facts on which you can depend. All we know for certain is how it works at the moment, and that changes, and that leaving will produce significant uncertainty. And we have no idea how it will work out if we choose to leave. But at the moment we're part of a big club and I suspect a lot of the Tory leavers still harbour the illusion that we're a great world power.  I don't think we are any more, and going it alone will be a risk. Yes - we'll still be part of NATO, still a voice on and a permanent member of the Security Council but we'll no longer have unfettered access to our largest trading bloc. Things might work out, but there are two aspects that concern me.

The most important in my mind is that if it becomes a mess, it's not a mess we'll have to sort out: it will affect our children. We have two boys and they both travel around Europe a fair bit. They also have a lot of foreign friends and I suspect it might be rather selfish to vote in a way that could leave them to pick up the pieces.

I think the second factor is that - like it or not - the world is shrinking. No country these days can pursue a policy of isolationism. We depend on Europe and other countries in a multitude of ways, and I suspect that dependence won't suddenly disappear if we vote to leave. Since we have this interdependence I think it makes sense to ensure we're part of a larger group. There is strength in numbers.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 08, 2016, 03:24:59 PM
Interestingly after many years of wanting out, mainly because of all the stories of EU regulations being blamed for problems here (mostly untrue stories it seems!), I am just on the side of staying in! I regard all of the comments from the remain and leave groups as being similar to the extremes of Tripadvisor reviews, ie the truth is somewhere in the middle. I regard the EU in it's present form as far from ideal, but I believe that we are better off in it and helping to reform it, if we leave we will still be very much influenced by the EU with no means of changing anything. So, I will be voting to remain, if you had told me that a few years ago, I would have laughed out loud! I hope I have come to the right logical decision!  :)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 10, 2016, 01:19:22 PM
This is going the rounds:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/what-is-in-brexit-mystery-box.html (http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/what-is-in-brexit-mystery-box.html)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 10, 2016, 07:42:08 PM
intetesting to see that one of Labour's few plain speakers, Dennis Skinner, has joined the Leave side. I suspect many Labour voters also harbour anti-EU sentiment.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 11, 2016, 08:08:57 AM
They do, indeed. But Skinner sees himself as a performer rather than an MP. And the continuing issue is that there are no categorical or precise figures for what will happen if we leave. The only thing we know is that we don't know.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 11, 2016, 08:55:00 AM
That's all true Ian and that is why it's so difficult to decide what to do for the best for the UK.    Immigration is the thing that worries me the most, we need migrants for our economy but preferably skilled English speaking ones.
It's also the fact that we have no control over the numbers of migrants we allow in from the EU and despite what you say about having controls over non EU migrants they still flood in.
Take the case of the 18  non EU economic migrants from Albania that arrived on our shores in May, what has happened to them?     There must have been a plane already available to deport them but I don't think it has happened,
I suspect that this Government has deliberately suppressed any Press releases for fear of the effect that it may have on the outcome of the EU referendum.
As for renegotiating our deal with Europe, hasn't Cameron tried it and he was about as much use as a chocolate tea cup
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 11, 2016, 10:42:18 AM
It's curious: we can refuse entry to anyone, but we never seem to use that.  Or - which I suspect is more likely - the anti-EU media only tell us about those that stay.

I know I've said it before but I feel the strongest argument for remaining is to look at the people advocating we leave. The Murdoch media, the Barclay brothers - if it helps them for us to leave then there's  clearly an agenda many of us aren't privy to.

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Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 11, 2016, 12:21:58 PM
Just for balance....
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 11, 2016, 12:23:22 PM
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It's curious: we can refuse entry to anyone, but we never seem to use that.  Or - which I suspect is more likely - the anti-EU media only tell us about those that stay.

I know I've said it before but I feel the strongest argument for remaining is to look at the people advocating we leave. The Murdoch media, the Barclay brothers - if it helps them for us to leave then there's  clearly an agenda many of us aren't privy to.

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The truth is that the inability to evict illegal or unwanted migrants from the UK is down to the EU.    The European Court of Human Rights blocks most of the UK's potential deportation cases.
Such is the stupidity of the system that if an illegal immigrant is caught and volunteers to be deported we can then immediately deport them but we give them between £500.00 to £3000.00 so that they can rehabilitate themselves in their home country.
Now if that illegal immigrant returns to the UK illegally and is caught again then it is their Human Rights to to go through  the same procedure again.
It's just crazy.

As for the Murdoch media and Barclay brothers I wouldn't pay too much attention to their bluff, it's just hot air.     I can remember back to the days just prior to when Labour had a landslide victory in the General election,   there were dozens of rich Tory sympathisers threatening to leave the UK and go abroad to places like Barbados and other countries but sadly when Labour did win the election not one of them went.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 11, 2016, 10:34:23 PM
I tried to find out what had happened to the illegal immigrants from Albania that came here recently but couldn't find anything and I can only assume that the Government are not releasing the details until after the EU vote.
I did come across this article from March 2016 and nothing has changed since then proving that we do not realistically have control over our borders

  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12183475/Asylum-seekers-arriving-in-Europe-doubled-to-1.2-million-last-year.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12183475/Asylum-seekers-arriving-in-Europe-doubled-to-1.2-million-last-year.html)

Britain cannot deport asylum seekers who have 'no place to go', says minister
Admission comes as official European Union body says asylum claimants across Europe doubled to 1.2 million last year
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 08:39:34 AM
Hugo, the European court of Human Rights isn't a part of the EU as such: even if we left the EU we'd still be a signatory to the EU Human Rights convention so we'd still be bound by their deliberations and decisions. And while I grant you may have a point about deportation it's also important to remember that many of the things on which the court has ruled in the past were and are to the benefit of protecting UK citizens.

What is more interesting is that 96% of cases are rejected as being either inadmissible or as having existing law to cover them. Judges are also elected by majority vote in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe from the three candidates nominated by each contracted country, so in that sense the court is far, far more democratic that our own courts. But of course, thanks to the Barclay Brothers and Murdoch you wouldn't know that from reading the papers, since they only print what sells papers and makes them money and power, so they print, for instance, every application to the court, no matter how barmy, in order to whip up anti-EU feeling.

The court is criticised frequently by those who argue its rulings are both too narrow and too wide ranging (!) but there are some extremely important factors to consider: we as the UK are signatories to the convention and have agreed to abide by its rulings. Of course we might not like its rulings at times, but folk complain about UK legal rulings all the time. The judges are forced to retire at 70 yet UK judges can go on as long as they wish. Don't forget that the media are frequently found to have 'embellished' the truth of cases, yet retractions are rare and, if done, are printed in minute typefaces on page 25 or thereabouts. Frankly, the ECHR is a huge protection for every one of us and I wouldn't want to see us leave that, despite the fact that they take decisions which we don't always like.  But that's what the law is about, surely? And, let's face it, you only have to look at the shenanigans about Colwyn Bay pier to see how protracted legal systems are and yet how they also protect the individual. We may think the Law is an ass, but if we need it ourselves then it's a different matter. 

The European Court of Justice is the body to which many object, yet that has no connection whatsoever to the ECHR.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 10:14:11 AM
In fact, I suspect our legal system is possibly much better than many, but the ECHR has obliged the UK to take greater care of vulnerable prisoners, regulate the monitoring of employees' communications, protect the anonymity of journalists' sources, bring the age of consent for gay people in line with that for heterosexuals and force local councils to observe proper safeguards in evictions. Now, many of those won't be popular with Tory voters, I agree, but it does tend to demonstrate that even the UK has some discrepancies in its legislation. Which raises one puzzling point: although members states are supposed to be obliged to stick to ECHR rulings, they can apparently resist and appeal. This is currently happening in Ireland, where parliament is resisting calls from the ECHR to revise its abortion law which it said treated women as "a vessel, nothing more" and here, where the Government has (rightly, In my humble opinion) refused to allow serving prisoners the vote.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Cambrian on June 12, 2016, 12:48:27 PM
Just a factual point.  British judges do not hold office for life.  They retire at 70 or, in exceptional cases, 75. (Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993).  The Judicial Pensions Act 1959 stopped them serving beyond 75 an exception was Lord Denning who carried on and on as he was appointed Master of the Rolls before that Act came into force.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 12, 2016, 02:03:28 PM
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........... Now, many of those won't be popular with Tory voters, ...............

Ian, I have to say that comment is beneath you.

(And no, I'm not a Tory voter.)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 02:36:53 PM
Quote
   
Quote
Now, many of those won't be popular with Tory voters,
Ian, I have to say that comment is beneath you.

Why, if it's the truth? As a matter of record it was Tory MPs who refused to even consider making the age of consent for all genders equal. In 1994 (Cons Govt) Conservative MP Edwina Currie brought forward an amendment to a Bill to equalise the age of consent at 16.

Large numbers of Labour MPs supported Ms Currie, including the then shadow home secretary, Tony Blair. Outlining the position of the pro-16 camp, Mr Blair said "People are entitled to think that homosexuality is wrong, but they are not entitled to use the criminal law to force that view upon others. A society that has learned, over time, racial and sexual equality can surely come to terms with equality of sexuality." The move failed.

It took the ECHR and Tony Blair's government, which said that they would do everything possible to change the law. Labour MP Ann Keen introduced an age of consent amendment to the Crime and Disorder Bill. It sailed through a free vote in the Commons with a majority of 207 MPs.

But in July 1998, the Lords (Cons Majority) threw it out with a majority of 168. Amid bitter exchanges, the amendment's opponents insisted that they were not anti-gay, but seeking to protect children.

Even worse, the opponents of the bill, Led by the former Conservative minister Baroness Young, pledged to scupper future attempts to amend the law.

Interestingly, then, legislation voted through by our own democratically elected MPs can be defeated by a non-elected group: the Lords. Wonder if the anti-Europeans ever stop to consider that?

Sources and quotes: Hansard / BBC / Guardian
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 02:41:20 PM
Quote
Just a factual point.  British judges do not hold office for life.

The Lord Chancellor, however, can serve at any age.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 12, 2016, 02:59:35 PM
I had the TV on this morning and wasn't paying too much attention to it but then heard about David Cameron's attempts to renegotiate terms for the UK  within the EU.
It said that Cameron didn't see why the UK should be paying out child benefits for children who had never ever been to the UK.     The reply was that it was written in the EU constitution and couldn't be changed.
It's stupidity like that, that makes the ordinary person unsure of which way to vote in the EU election.
 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 12, 2016, 03:09:40 PM
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Quote
   
Quote
Now, many of those won't be popular with Tory voters,
Ian, I have to say that comment is beneath you.

Why, if it's the truth?
Sources and quotes: Hansard / BBC / Guardian

Not EVERY voter who votes for a party agrees with EVERYTHING the party does, even Jeremy Corbyn himself has defied his party over 500 times. Condemn the party for action's it takes, but to blame EVERY voter of a party for the party's ills is extreme. No-one would suggest that every Labour voter approved of their leaders sharing a platform with terrorists.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 03:12:57 PM
I agree. But I don't believe it's part of the EU constitution as such. As far as I can see it's all to do with the EEA (The European Economic Area) which is larger than the EU.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 03:16:57 PM
Quote
Not EVERY voter who votes for a party agrees with EVERYTHING the party does, even Jeremy Corbyn himself has defied his party over 500 times. Condemn the party for action's it takes, but to blame EVERY voter of a party for the party's ills is extreme.

I didn't actually say 'Every' voter, Bosun, although perhaps I ought to have added a limiter: 'most'. But the facts do speak to Tory voters in general being the more reluctant of all to change certain issues. That's predicated on the Tory MPs in question following what they believe their voters want them to follow, of course.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 03:29:13 PM
I suppose what worries me most is that many voters will become obsessed with the minutiae of the EU arguments, and not even try to see the bigger picture.  But I do know that if we believe that leaving the EU will somehow magically save the NHS, make houses suddenly affordable and prove the answer to all our ills we're deluding ourselves. 

A lot of European voters want out of the EU: many it would seem, are watching to see what we do and the illegal immigration issue over the past couple of years could prompt them to make the leap if we vote to leave. But throughout the world there's a political shift towards extreme stances taking place. The far right is growing at a rate faster than pre-WWII and I doubt that's especially good news. We all know how each country likes to feel it's somehow special, somehow different. The twin factors of religion and language fuel that sense of difference and - as we saw from Serbia not that long ago - war can break out a little too easily. My own gut feeling (no evidence whatsoever) is that if the EU remains together it can at least give the younger generation some sort of aspiration as they grow. Youngsters do seem to feel more 'European' than many of us do, and I think we should afford them a chance to grow up in a multicultural society, relatively free of hatred, bigotry, war and Genocide. It's never going to be easy - sometimes the best things never are - but it could be worthwhile.   
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 12, 2016, 03:39:07 PM
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I had the TV on this morning and wasn't paying too much attention to it but then heard about David Cameron's attempts to renegotiate terms for the UK  within the EU.
It said that Cameron didn't see why the UK should be paying out child benefits for children who had never ever been to the UK.     The reply was that it was written in the EU constitution and couldn't be changed.
It's stupidity like that, that makes the ordinary person unsure of which way to vote in the EU election.

Hugo, I "Liked" your post and it got me thinking, so I questioned Google, and one of the articles in particular surprised me, see what you think...........

This is the last part of the article which makes a lot of sense.
“It’s obvious that EU citizens should use the freedom of movement to travel where they can find work,” Thorning-Schmidt said last year. “They shouldn’t use it to travel where they can receive the best welfare benefit.”

Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

There are not only far more Britons drawing benefits in these countries than vice versa, but frequently the benefits elsewhere in Europe are much more generous than in the UK. A Briton in France receives more than three times as much as a jobless French person in the UK.

The research is being published after the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, visited London this month (2015) for talks with the prime minister, David Cameron, who is campaigning to “reform” EU freedom of movement as part of his attempt to rewrite the terms of Britain’s EU membership before putting the issue to a referendum in 2017, if he is still in power.

In Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, France and Ireland the number of Britons banking unemployment cheques is almost three times as high as the nationals of those countries receiving parallel UK benefits – 23,011 Britons to 8,720 nationals of those nine countries in the UK........

MORE.......https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 12, 2016, 04:13:05 PM
My biggest concern about the EU debate, is how CERTAIN, everyone is that they are right.
Everyone I speak to (and the vast majority are voting leave), are unshakeable in their assertion that the borders will be closed, immigration will be 'solved' overnight, wages will rise, housing will be cheap, fantastic jobs will come cascading down for all.
Everything is going to be Utopia,  the trouble is, they might be wrong.... no one is considering that their firmly held views (from both sides) might be wrong.
I've never known anything like this.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 12, 2016, 04:53:13 PM
Yep;  that's the problem in a nutshell.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 12, 2016, 05:22:06 PM
Steve,   Statistics are only believable if you can compare like for like.   Unless a country has a benefit system similar to ours then exact comparisons cannot be made.
Take  Ireland as an example, does anyone believe that there are only 2,620 Irish people claiming JSA  in the UK?     I would imagine that there are that many in Liverpool alone.
In addition JSA  is only one benefit and various Governments of the UK have altered the goal posts on benefits to give a false impression of actually how many people are not working.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 12, 2016, 07:19:45 PM
A rather wise man said to me today, 'a vote to leave is a vote to have that muppet Boris Johnson as PM immediately, if that's not enough reason to vote stay, I don't know what is'

I reflected about that and thought, Boris as PM, Trump as US President and Putin in the Kremlin, might as well just blow the world up now!
But if this happens, WE let it happen!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 13, 2016, 08:51:32 AM
This is just a single example of how the DFM is attempting to manipulate the voters and why I detest the rag:

DFM reporting (http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/jun/13/daily-mail-downplays-orlando-massacre-in-favour-of-pearl-earrings?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Media+Briefing+new+v2&utm_term=177031&subid=2664260&CMP=ema_546)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 13, 2016, 09:39:56 AM
Interesting to see how lacklustre Jeremy Corbyn has been about staying in the EU. He's barely been visible during the campaigning and any utterances have the feel of 'going through the motions' to them.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 14, 2016, 11:29:08 AM
This is one of the biggest questions on which any of us will ever get to get to cast a vote.
Together, we will decide whether this country will break away from the EU or stay part of a community of more than 500 million people.
WalesOnline and our sister paper the Western Mail believe that Wales' future will be far better served by the UK remaining a member of the EU.

Here are nine reasons why:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/nine-reasons-wales-better-vote-11457573 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/nine-reasons-wales-better-vote-11457573)

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: hollins on June 15, 2016, 03:33:04 PM
I empathise with this reader of the Telegraph.....



"SIR – On June 23 I intend to vote for whichever side irritates me the least.

It will be a damn close-run thing."

Dr Paddy Fielder
Woodbridge, Suffolk
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 15, 2016, 04:02:27 PM
That is probably why I am still unlikely to vote.
Unless my loathing of Boris Johnson forces the issue...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 15, 2016, 05:01:56 PM
Like it, H :-))
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on June 16, 2016, 09:00:29 PM
The money we send the EU certainly comes back to us......how can we possibly live without the help and guidance they so generously give us in spending our own money?
Well, here are a few reasons below to consider.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, We used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't.

Still want to stay? Well it must be some consolation that you have Cameron to negotiate in Europe on your behalf.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 17, 2016, 07:35:58 AM
Blongb: if you're going to quote entire Facebook posts then please credit the original source and show clearly that what you're saying is a quote and not your own research. Especially when so much of it is actually wrong...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 17, 2016, 11:28:26 AM
That is a real problem, and a massive problem in the run up to the actual vote.
I have seen these things on Facebook too, several times a day, and everyone I speak to are 100% unshakeable in these 'facts'
I have never known a situation where such entrenched positions are being taken by the vast majority, without even considering that their facts 'could' be wrong.
I have hardly met a soul who is voting to remain, plus I have hardly met a soul who is 'undecided' but the 'facts' that they use to base this decision on are questionable at best, or just plain propaganda.

So, assuming we leave the EU, and the new Govt doesn't immediately create 10 million cushy jobs at £100k a year (for Brits only), kick every foreign person out within a month and make Britain into a paradise, there are going to be a lot of bitterly aggrieved 'Leave' voters wondering what the hell is going wrong.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 17, 2016, 12:01:48 PM
Well, no doubt the Leave campaign will blame everyone but themselves when it all goes wrong. I still can't quite understand why anyone would vote for a group that lies openly about the cost of EU membership.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 17, 2016, 12:08:07 PM
It's got momentum I will say that - it's turning into the old 'novelty' protest vote. Protest votes are fine for a bit of fun like when Rage against the machine were Christmas number 1  :P

But a 'protest' vote to leave is like cutting off your ears and nose in protest at your bad haircut  :rage:
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 17, 2016, 12:14:13 PM
What I can't understand is that everybody who is anybody advocates we should remain and a bunch of failed Tory MPs trying to secure cabinet positions with BoJo as PM say we should leave by stating a load of lies and promises they can't hope to keep YET they appear to be winning.
Trump is also lying his way to US president with seemingly the same result.
What has the world come to???
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 17, 2016, 12:35:51 PM
Well George Osborne has already told us what will happen if the UK votes to leave the EU.       He said he's going to increase taxes and make  cuts to all our services, but hey isn't he doing that already and we are still in the EU.     
He'll increase taxes for the working person but not for the rich and famous who will still be able to avoid paying their fair share of tax, just like Osborne has done himself.
MP's at worst, are telling lies about the facts that they are spouting and at best are just being economical with the truth.
They are not giving us the correct figures on immigration which are much higher than the official figures and our Border Force is in a dire situation.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 17, 2016, 12:59:11 PM
I am still on the fence, but will probably vote to remain, lots about the EU that I do not like, but leaving seems risky to me! I saw on the BBC yesterday that if we vote leave it will take 2 years to negotiate the terms of leaving. I saw this graph on Facebook which sums the whole thing up well!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 17, 2016, 01:00:34 PM
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What I can't understand is that everybody who is anybody advocates we should remain and a bunch of failed Tory MPs trying to secure cabinet positions with BoJo as PM say we should leave by stating a load of lies and promises they can't hope to keep YET they appear to be winning.
Trump is also lying his way to US president with seemingly the same result.
What has the world come to???

Anyone who has ever been PM or Chancellor, ( that is still alive) is urging us to stay in the EU.
They know something I don't know, and they are not given to throwing money and sovereignty away, so what are they privy to?

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 17, 2016, 02:49:41 PM
It's not easy because just about the only thing of which we can be certain is that if we leave we won't know what will happen. We do know what we have at the moment and, while I totally agree it's far from perfect, at least it's something of a known quantity.
If it helps anyone, this is a summary by CNN, who have no vested interest in either side:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/16/europe/brexit-britain-immigration-referendum/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/16/europe/brexit-britain-immigration-referendum/)

And on immigration, the high figures last month revealed something interesting: slightly less than 50% of the immigrants came from the EU...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 17, 2016, 03:21:58 PM
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What I can't understand is that everybody who is anybody advocates we should remain and a bunch of failed Tory MPs trying to secure cabinet positions with BoJo as PM say we should leave by stating a load of lies and promises they can't hope to keep YET they appear to be winning.
Trump is also lying his way to US president with seemingly the same result.
What has the world come to???

Anyone who has ever been PM or Chancellor, ( that is still alive) is urging us to stay in the EU.
They know something I don't know, and they are not given to throwing money and sovereignty away, so what are they privy to?

What are the dead ones urging us to do?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 17, 2016, 05:50:24 PM
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What I can't understand is that everybody who is anybody advocates we should remain and a bunch of failed Tory MPs trying to secure cabinet positions with BoJo as PM say we should leave by stating a load of lies and promises they can't hope to keep YET they appear to be winning.
Trump is also lying his way to US president with seemingly the same result.
What has the world come to???

Anyone who has ever been PM or Chancellor, ( that is still alive) is urging us to stay in the EU.
They know something I don't know, and they are not given to throwing money and sovereignty away, so what are they privy to?

What are the dead ones urging us to do?

I intend to conduct a seance to ascertain this information.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 19, 2016, 07:05:03 AM
This piece was written by a friend of mine, well done Mike....:

Tory MP Dr Sarah Wollaston has quit the Brexit campaign over what she says is the false claim that, outside the EU, the UK would be able to spend an extra £350 million per week on the NHS. I also find this claim frustrating because it is inaccurate on so many levels that it gives the Remainers an easy target.
The actual figures can be found on the BBC’s website and what they show is that the UK’s dues amount to some £19 billion (£360 million per week) but when you subtract the rebate (£4.4 billion)  that is reduced to £276 million per week. Then there is the money we receive in farm subsidies, Objective 1 and the rest (£6 billion) and we’re down to £161 million per week, net. Why use a figure that is patently false?

The problem is that what started out as a referendum on the EU has become a battle for the future leadership of the Tory party and as the old Greek Aeschylus is reputed to have said: “”In war, truth is the first casualty”.

It’s not as if the Remain side are beacons of truthfulness, though they seem to have given up on the one about 3.5 million UK jobs depending on our membership of the EU. The truth is that these jobs depend on our exports to the EU and, as we have a £60 billion trade deficit with our European partners, it follows that more than 3.5 million EU jobs depend on their exports to us. So, unless they want to cut off their noses to spite their faces, they will be as anxious to protect these trade-related jobs as we are.

This is especially so given that average EU unemployment (11%) is twice that of the UK (5.5%) with black spots in Greece (25.2%) Spain (22.2%) Portugal (12.4%) Italy (11.9%) and France (10.8%). (Source Eurostat) with only Germany, Czech Rep and Malta having unemployment lower than the UK, whilst Italy’s economy is still 8% smaller than it was before the financial crash of 2008.

So anyone who can can keep a straight face while claiming that the EU is good for jobs and growth deserves an Oscar.

But that hasn’t stopped George Osborne from bobbing up at regular intervals to tell us with deadly precision how this or that think tank has calculated how much Brexit will cost us in lost wages, increased mortgages, cuts in pensions etc, etc, etc.

The commentator Martin Lewis has pointed out that these predictions are based on assumptions fed into computer models and to present them as facts is a form of deception. As the great Danish physicist Niels Bohr said: “Predictions are tricky- especially when they are about the future” and the American economist J K Galbraith claimed that “Economic forecasting was invented to make astrology look respectable.”

So forget all these scare stories, whether about the country being swamped with immigrants if we remain , or we poor UK citizens grubbing about in the hedgerows for berries and roots if we leave. These are trivial issues compared to what really matters: sovereignty and democracy.

Much has been made of the amount of cash we receive back from the EU in farm subsidies, structural funds and other goodies. But what should be remembered is that this was our money originally and it comes with strings attached – we are not allowed to spend it on our own priorities.

In a speech earlier this week, Jeremy Corbyn claimed that the EU protected workers’ rights from the wicked Tories. He may be right about this, but, by the same token, EU competition rules would prevent a future Labour government from giving state aid to the steel industry. And, if it wanted to protect the industry against cheap Chinese imports by imposing tariffs, it would need to seek the agreement of our European partners.

These should be decisions for a government elected by the British people not the European Commission.

Unfortunately, the Labour Party has fallen into the trap described by the late Tony Benn as “preferring a good King to a bad Parliament”. But, as Benn was fond of pointing out, the thing about bad Parliaments is that the electorate has the power “to kick the blighters out”. In answer to this line of attack, Labour spokesman Chuka Umunna told the Today programme that the EU was democratic because all decisions have to be agreed by the elected heads of government who make up the Council of Ministers. This analysis flawed. First the Council meets in secret and, second, Mr Cameron can sign up to measures that he couldn’t possibly get through Parliament.

Conversely, if he is outvoted, the EU can impose a law on the UK even if it was opposed by every single member of our elected Parliament.

The undemocratic nature of the EU is no accident. Having witnessed the destruction visited on the continent by populist movements in the 1930s and 40s the EU’s founding fathers were determined not to let it happen again – hence the system of rule by elites, or as Tony Benn would have put it, a good King.
No doubt if we vote for Brexit there will be volatility on the markets because the whole EU edifice would be in danger.

Former Bank of England Governor Lord King has predicted the collapse of the Eurozone under the weight of its own contradictions and a Brexit vote will provide a handy scapegoat for what may be inevitable anyway. If Lord King is right, we Brexiters will eventually get the desired result without being saddled with the blame.

But the final word must go to Sajid Javid, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in Mr Cameron’s government. In an article in the Daily Mail last month, Mr Javid wrote:  It’s clear now that the United Kingdom should never have joined the EU. In many ways, it’s a failing project, an overblown bureaucracy in need of wide-ranging and urgent reform.

And he’s campaigning for Remain......
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 19, 2016, 07:49:13 AM
I saw this on the Old Grumpy website  - http://oldgrumpy.co.uk/ (http://oldgrumpy.co.uk/) (oldgrumpy.mike@virgin.net) - and it's an interesting piece but I think it fails to deal fully with what he claims "really matters: sovereignty and democracy".

When he says: "EU competition rules would prevent a future Labour government from giving state aid to the steel industry." on the face of it, that would appear to be accurate, but last year the Government had the opportunity to subsidise the Redcar plant and then seek approval retrospectively. It didn't, and a lot of people wanted to know why, since France has a long record of doing what it wants in that regard. It seems the current government's belief in the absolute sanctity of the capitalist system was such that it believed buyers from the private sector would come flocking in. 

So the UK government can subsidise plants if it wishes. The real problem, of course, is that the Chinese steel industry is very heavily subsidised by the Chinese government. Makes the playing field a bit uneven.

But the democratic argument is one that reappears time and again. In theory - yes; it's possible that an unpopular law could be foisted on the UK, although I'm not sure we need to go the EU for unpopular laws being foisted on the populace in the UK, but the reality within the EU is one of pragmatic acceptance of the UK status as a powerful economy, and the UK has a veto over anything it doesn't really want.

I think his summary is fair, however. He says :"Having witnessed the destruction visited on the continent by populist movements in the 1930s and 40s the EU’s founding fathers were determined not to let it happen again" and that's true, of course. But he sneaks in "hence the system of rule by elites", which is a little naughty, since I suspect he knows that isn't the real truth.

But there's no doubt that the campaign's vitriolic nature (not in this piece, I hasten to add) has played a part with the unstable elements in society. Jo Cox's killer gave his name as "Death to Traitors - Britain first". Is this what we're really coming to?


Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 19, 2016, 08:23:43 AM
I think that overall, Mike wrote quite a reasonable piece; to fully answer 'really matters: sovereignty and democracy' would take possibly more column inches than are available here. France, and for that matter numerous other EU countries have a track record of doing what they want (including ignoring legislation) then seeking retrospective approval.

It's interesting that Mike and Jacob Williams are in the Bexit camp, I have to admit some surprise at that.

I'm saddened and sickened in equal degrees by this campaign and I suspect that like many others, I'm still not entirely sure which way I'll vote, however, looking at those in the 'Leave' camp as opposed to those to the 'Remain' camp is beginning to persuade me. 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 19, 2016, 11:44:54 AM
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I saw this on the Old Grumpy website  - http://oldgrumpy.co.uk/ (http://oldgrumpy.co.uk/) (oldgrumpy.mike@virgin.net)

But there's no doubt that the campaign's vitriolic nature (not in this piece, I hasten to add) has played a part with the unstable elements in society. Jo Cox's killer gave his name as "Death to Traitors - Britain first". Is this what we're really coming to?

Ian, there are more and more examples of unstable individuals in every day life, I see them in my working life several times a day.  I am amazed how many of the people I see can actually function and get through the day.   
Internet trolls and stalkers too, how many of these have been reported to the police, multiple times , only for them to murder their victims and it become a controversy?  (One which quickly fades from the headlines)
There are so many unbalanced morons about, coupled with the aggressive political campaigning we have seen, that this mindless and savage act was becoming inevitable.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 19, 2016, 02:48:37 PM
We already have more than our fair share of dysfunctional people without having any more from outside the UK.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on June 19, 2016, 11:12:10 PM
We have to ask why the old mental institutions were shut down and all the poor Patients released in their thousands, into society, to try and function mostly without any adequate supervision or help.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 20, 2016, 12:04:20 AM
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We have to ask why the old mental institutions were shut down and all the poor Patients released in their thousands, into society, to try and function mostly without any adequate supervision or help.


Yet another one of Thatcher's policies (Care In The Community) that took a generation to evolve into what we have today.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 20, 2016, 08:43:14 AM
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We already have more than our fair share of dysfunctional people without having any more from outside the UK.

What about the very large proportion of mental health doctors and nurses (as well as other health professionals) tha are born outside the UK and give much needed care?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 20, 2016, 08:57:39 AM
It seems the Brexit camp like censorship:

"The official Brexit campaign excluded Channel 4 News from its rally on Sunday amid complaints from its chief spin doctor that he was unhappy with the tone of the programme’s coverage.

Vote Leave’s head of press, Robert Oxley, criticised Channel 4 News political correspondent Michael Crick and refused to admit him and his colleagues to the event at the Old Billingsgate fish market in London, at which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove spoke. Oxley told the programme’s political team that the rally, which ended up being sparsely attended, was oversubscribed. “Furthermore, all Michael Crick does is take the piss,” he told one of the programme’s producers.

It is not the first time Crick has had a run-in with the Brexit campaign. At an event in Salford in April, Boris Johnson – who was giving a speech – urged supporters to interrupt Crick’s live broadcast because it was distracting him.

Speaking to the Guardian, Crick said he had been in the wrong to do the broadcast and said he had privately apologised to the former London mayor and his staff.

In a separate incident, the journalist said he upset Brexit campaigners when he ignored their instructions not to attempt to ask Boris Johnson any questions at a campaign event. “That’s not taking the piss, that’s doing my job,” Crick said.

And, in a third incident, he claimed that Brexit supporters were unhappy when he pointed out that the business hosting an event at which the campaign sought to highlight immigration, itself employed Polish immigrants.

On Saturday, event organisers told a Channel 4 News producer that the news team had not been properly accredited and that there was no room for them. While the journalists had spoken to the Brexit campaign about attending on the phone, they had not sent a request via email, they were told.

Vote Leave said: “Michael’s team were informed that they had failed to accredit for the event thus they were not granted entry.”
Oxley said that Crick had “certainly been disruptive at events, talking over speakers for example”, but insisted he was denied entry because he was not properly accredited."
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 22, 2016, 11:21:12 AM
Rather than abandoning Europe, I think it is time we make Europe work for us.

Professor Dylan Jones-Evans on the EU Referendum debate.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Jones-Evans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Jones-Evans)

Over the last few weeks, there have been many claims of what a vote to stay in or exit the Europe Union will do to this nation.

Regardless of the noise being generated on both sides, the outcome will be decided predominantly by whether the strong economic arguments over remaining in Europe will trump the fears that some are expressing over high levels of immigration.

In terms of the impact of the EU referendum on the future of the UK economy, the main consideration for businesses is that of stability over the medium term.

It is accepted by both sides that there would be considerable economic turmoil if the UK votes to leave and great uncertainty over what would happen over the next few years to the economy.
MORE   http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-opinion/abandoning-europe-think-time-make-11507926 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-opinion/abandoning-europe-think-time-make-11507926)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 22, 2016, 09:38:29 PM
If you're still undecided , this may help.  It's 24 minutes long but worth it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y&app=desktop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y&app=desktop)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 23, 2016, 08:08:21 AM
I've watched part of it and will listen to the whole 24 minutes before voting but there are always two sides to any argument such as:-

The one thing professor Michael Dougan, of Liverpool University, seems less than keen to reveal is that he is holder of a Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's not that he keeps it a secret – just that he doesn't make a point of declaring it.

However, that means his post is supported by EU funds, typically worth €50,000 over three years. And, while post-holders deny bias, they are in effect paid agents of the EU.

Dougan's recent intervention in the EU Referendum debate, therefore, is of some significance, and especially when he is accusing the leave campaign of "dishonesty on an industrial scale".
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 23, 2016, 09:06:57 AM
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I've watched part of it and will listen to the whole 24 minutes before voting but there are always two sides to any argument such as:-

The one thing professor Michael Dougan, of Liverpool University, seems less than keen to reveal is that he is holder of a Jean Monnet chair at the university. It's not that he keeps it a secret – just that he doesn't make a point of declaring it.

However, that means his post is supported by EU funds, typically worth €50,000 over three years. And, while post-holders deny bias, they are in effect paid agents of the EU.

Dougan's recent intervention in the EU Referendum debate, therefore, is of some significance, and especially when he is accusing the leave campaign of "dishonesty on an industrial scale".
There's always an agenda, isn't there?

Interesting how all the big banks, the ones that Ian constantly reminds us were responsible for landing us all in big trouble a few years ago, desperately want to REMAIN in the EU.

I think it's time to say goodbye to this failed attempt at a socialist superstate...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 23, 2016, 10:51:40 AM
Quote
Interesting how all the big banks, the ones that Ian constantly reminds us were responsible for landing us all in big trouble a few years ago, desperately want to REMAIN in the EU.

Yep - along with Rupert Murdoch, Baron Rothsmere and the Barclays who want us out. The only thing they have in common is that none pays Tax in the UK and all own some of the biggest national daily newspapers. As you say, there's always an agenda.


Well, there is one major point: if we leave it's irrevocable. They certainly wouldn't welcome us back in. But if we remain then we can always pull out at another point if the wheels come off.

I think it's time to stay in but really change the EU from inside.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 23, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
Say NO!   To Boris Johnson.  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 23, 2016, 12:06:42 PM
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Well, there is one major point: if we leave it's irrevocable. They certainly wouldn't welcome us back in. But if we remain then we can always pull out at another point if the wheels come off.

I think it's time to stay in but really change the EU from inside.

I think both your statements above are extremely important ... we can leave anytime but getting back in ? ? ? ?
and I think we have frightened Europe and maybe this will give us a stronger voice for the future.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 23, 2016, 12:21:42 PM
Like many on this forum I have followed this election and the debates with worry and concern. The repercussions, right or wrong, will last for generations and we are voting for the future of the UK. I have been saddened by the tone of some of the arguments and the Brexit campaign appealing to the lowest common denominators of our society, as I have by the fear tactics of the Remain campaign. I am appalled by both the xenophobic rhetoric and the bureaucratic nightmare of the EU. 

I really did think long and hard about which way to vote, and listened intently to the possibilities of the UK as a 'stand alone' trading nation, and the future within the EU. One person who I have met and who is a wholly decent, honest, hugely experienced politician (not words often heard together) is John Major and I was influenced by what he has had to say. And, the longer that this campaign has gone on, the less convinced I became by Boris Johnson, and I have to say, his motley bunch of cohorts. (Kate Hoey might have been an excellent athlete, but she's a rubbish politician.)

I think that you can guess where my X went......  let's change things from the inside, not shout through the letterbox.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Big Alan on June 23, 2016, 12:57:27 PM
IN. Boris as the PM would screw the A*** out of Liverpool!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 23, 2016, 01:08:51 PM
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if we remain then we can always pull out at another point if the wheels come off.
Hardly the most compelling argument to remain!  8)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 23, 2016, 01:55:24 PM
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if we remain then we can always pull out at another point if the wheels come off.
Hardly the most compelling argument to remain!  8)


It's good enough for me!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 23, 2016, 02:15:53 PM
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if we remain then we can always pull out at another point if the wheels come off.
Hardly the most compelling argument to remain!  8)


It's good enough for me!

If we leave, and the EU works, do you think that they will let us in again as easily as we can leave it goes t*ts up?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2016, 03:13:50 AM
I'm up all night watching the referendum results flooding in, it's thrilling and worrying in equal measure.
It's amazing how Wales as a majority (55%) want out, nearly 63% of English voters want out, BUT, the massive amount of voters in inner London want to remain. So that skews the running total to a huge degree.
The close result , and it's nearly 50/50 at the moment with 40% of the votes in, conceals a massively divided UK, geographically and socially.
It's edging toward a LEAVE result as I write this, but I can't help wondering what the new leadership will do to heal these deep divisions which have been unleashed by all this.
Not going to bed til this is concluded.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: poppy on June 24, 2016, 03:44:10 AM
Has me hooked too. Leave edging ahead with 52%  >>>
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2016, 03:48:24 AM
I'm also watching the Forex and stock markets, massive falls, really scary stuff.
With exchange rates plummeting like this, we can expect everything from foreign holidays to food on supermarket shelves to start costing more!
Be careful what you wish for, you 'Leavers'
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: poppy on June 24, 2016, 04:03:51 AM
Early victory speech from Farage  ???
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 24, 2016, 07:28:09 AM
Well, it's settled. A 4% margin in favour of leave, apparently by mainly older voters, a dramatic drop in the Pound against the dollar (great for anyone planning a trip there in the next few months) and the B of E marshalling its contingency plans for a rapid interest rate rise. What'll happen when the markets open is anyone's guess but we're sailing into uncharted waters, now.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 24, 2016, 08:04:57 AM
The public have had their say, that's democracy, so when the dust settles we have just got to get on with it.   
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2016, 08:39:10 AM
The markets opened Ian, and this is what happened... $fan$ $fan$ $fan$ $fan$ $eu
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 24, 2016, 08:45:19 AM
A great result for democracy, I feel, as voters (both Labour & Conservative) ignored their political masters and big business. Jeremy Corbyn didn't exactly sound disappointed about the result this morning when interviewed on Radio 4...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2016, 09:25:00 AM
I rather think that a large amount of those voting LEAVE did so because they are disillusioned with political parties, and they dislike 'Johnny Foreigner'
I base this on what my customers tell me day in, day out.
I think this will be a very expensive exercise in misguided 'nationalism'
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 24, 2016, 09:34:49 AM
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The public have had their say, that's democracy, so when the dust settles we have just got to get on with it.   


MOST of the public have but because 28% couldn't be bothered to vote we end up with 37% of the electorate deciding our future. That means 63% didn't vote for this outcome, just like the last general election ironically!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 24, 2016, 09:44:47 AM
Within an hour of Brexit, Farage admitted on national television that there won't be an extra £350m for the NHS.....   he said "It was a mistake......"
..........after 17.5 million people voted.

Why didn't he say that before? How many people decided their vote on that oft repeated statement? I can guarantee that there will be more lies exposed in the coming days, but it's too late now.

How many of those Leave votes were simply protest votes, by people who will slowly wake up and emerge into reality over the coming weeks and regret their error.

And in this referendum, Jeremy Corbyn has been able to categorically prove to even his most devoted disciples that he is an utterly abysmal and ineffectual leader of the Labour Party, certainly not in anyway fit to lead an Opposition..... thus creating even more problems for the country.

This signals the beginning of the break-up of the UK and as for the comment 'we have just got to get on with it', I'm aghast. Most sensible people see the possible outcomes of their actions and act accordingly to prevent problems, yesterday, protest votes and a lack of common sense tipped this country into the mire. And it won't be those that did that who will be struggling to get us, and generations to come, out of the problem.   

 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 24, 2016, 10:09:50 AM
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This signals the beginning of the break-up of the UK and as for the comment 'we have just got to get on with it', I'm aghast. Most sensible people see the possible outcomes of their actions and act accordingly to prevent problems, yesterday, protest votes and a lack of common sense tipped this country into the mire. And it won't be those that did that who will be struggling to get us, and generations to come, out of the problem.   

Why are you aghast?   It's happened and we have no alternative now other than to do the best we can for the UK.     It's a democracy and everyone is entitled to their opinion, perhaps the majority do not have the benefit of your common sense and experience.
The old saying if something is working don't fix it, is common sense,  whereas if it is not working and you are not allowed to fix it shows a lack of common sense.
Cameron gave  us the referendum so if anyone is to blame then it must be him and his Tory friends who are not so smug anymore.
I voted to remain in but it's a democracy and I'll abide by the decision made.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Cambrian on June 24, 2016, 10:19:25 AM
Maybe Mr Corbyn should not be held solely to blame.  In Wales, Mr Carwyn Jones and Ms Wood were leaders of the "In" campaign; he seems to have held on to Islington whereas they did not in Bridgend and RCT respectively.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 24, 2016, 10:32:14 AM
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I rather think that a large amount of those voting LEAVE did so because they are disillusioned with political parties, and they dislike 'Johnny Foreigner' I think this will be a very expensive exercise in misguided 'nationalism'

That seems to be the case.  We're living in an era which is becoming significantly anti-politics. But more worryingly, few institutions permit such a relatively small margin in any major vote to bring about such a sweeping change. The most immediate effect, however, will be for anyone who buys fuel.  As oil is priced in dollars, expect immediate rises at the pumps...

Wonder what the leave campaigners will blame that on?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2016, 11:18:12 AM
On the BBC I watched an interview with 6 (youngish) voters,  3 from Leave, 3 from Remain.
The Leave 'winners' were strangely sombre in mood, and two said that they didn't expect their vote to count, and were upset by the outcome!  WTF??
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 24, 2016, 11:26:07 AM
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Maybe Mr Corbyn should not be held solely to blame.  In Wales, Mr Carwyn Jones and Ms Wood were leaders of the "In" campaign; he seems to have held on to Islington whereas they did not in Bridgend and RCT respectively.

Unfortunately Cambrian, whereas Jeremy Corbyn has been happy to share a platform with terrorists, notably the IRA and Hammas, he refused to share a platform with other party leaders in this referendum to show a united opposition to the 'leave' campaign, despite 80% of Labour MP's backing 'Remain'. 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 24, 2016, 12:35:07 PM
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Maybe Mr Corbyn should not be held solely to blame.  In Wales, Mr Carwyn Jones and Ms Wood were leaders of the "In" campaign; he seems to have held on to Islington whereas they did not in Bridgend and RCT respectively.

Unfortunately Cambrian, whereas Jeremy Corbyn has been happy to share a platform with terrorists, notably the IRA and Hammas, he refused to share a platform with other party leaders in this referendum to show a united opposition to the 'leave' campaign, despite 80% of Labour MP's backing 'Remain'.

By your 'standards' the Queen is also happy to share a platform with terrorists?

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/27/article-2165320-13CFA685000005DC-734_634x474.jpg)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 24, 2016, 12:37:38 PM
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On the BBC I watched an interview with 6 (youngish) voters,  3 from Leave, 3 from Remain.
The Leave 'winners' were strangely sombre in mood, and two said that they didn't expect their vote to count, and were upset by the outcome!  WTF??

I said it before when it's a 'protest' vote to get Rage against the machine to number 1 instead of X factor it's all good fun. This is a protest of chopping off our heads because we aren't happy with our haircut  >>>
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 24, 2016, 12:59:32 PM
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Maybe Mr Corbyn should not be held solely to blame.  In Wales, Mr Carwyn Jones and Ms Wood were leaders of the "In" campaign; he seems to have held on to Islington whereas they did not in Bridgend and RCT respectively.

Unfortunately Cambrian, whereas Jeremy Corbyn has been happy to share a platform with terrorists, notably the IRA and Hammas, he refused to share a platform with other party leaders in this referendum to show a united opposition to the 'leave' campaign, despite 80% of Labour MP's backing 'Remain'.

By your 'standards' the Queen is also happy to share a platform with terrorists?

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/27/article-2165320-13CFA685000005DC-734_634x474.jpg)
In your photograph, I don't actually see the Queen promoting the IRA's core values and ideals, as Corbyn did with both the IRA and Hammas.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 24, 2016, 01:34:38 PM
I voted Remain, leaning towards the economic rather than the immigration aspect, although it was on my mind especially with the prospect of Turkey (pop. 80 million) joining, now we are out, and assuming in time we will sort out the economics, I am now thinking in terms of immigration, and I am concerned about future decisions that will be made regarding "free movement" which in effect could nullify todays  "Leave" vote.

Quote from previous post.......
"As an EEA member, we do not participate in decision-making in Brussels, but we loyally abide by Brussels’ decisions. We have incorporated approximately three-quarters of all EU legislative acts into Norwegian legislation – and counting. We have legally secured access to the single market, and we practise the free movement of people,"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model)

This quote from BBC article today........
"It is possible that the UK will accept the continuation of free movement in order to retain preferential access to the single market, in which case we will continue to be able to travel freely in the EU."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619817 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619817)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 24, 2016, 02:00:14 PM
MPs submit Corbyn no confidence motion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777)

Why has it taken so long?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 24, 2016, 02:20:48 PM
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I voted Remain, leaning towards the economic rather than the immigration aspect, although it was on my mind especially with the prospect of Turkey (pop. 80 million) joining, now we are out, and assuming in time we will sort out the economics, I am now thinking in terms of immigration, and I am concerned about future decisions that will be made regarding "free movement" which in effect could nullify todays  "Leave" vote.

Quote from previous post.......
"As an EEA member, we do not participate in decision-making in Brussels, but we loyally abide by Brussels’ decisions. We have incorporated approximately three-quarters of all EU legislative acts into Norwegian legislation – and counting. We have legally secured access to the single market, and we practise the free movement of people,"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model)

This quote from BBC article today........
"It is possible that the UK will accept the continuation of free movement in order to retain preferential access to the single market, in which case we will continue to be able to travel freely in the EU."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619817 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619817)

What a farce - so if they accept the continuation of free movement then the main reason most people voted OUT is obsolete.  $good$

Well played nit wits, well played
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 24, 2016, 02:23:11 PM
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I voted Remain, leaning towards the economic rather than the immigration aspect, although it was on my mind especially with the prospect of Turkey (pop. 80 million) joining, now we are out, and assuming in time we will sort out the economics, I am now thinking in terms of immigration, and I am concerned about future decisions that will be made regarding "free movement" which in effect could nullify todays  "Leave" vote.

Quote from previous post.......
"As an EEA member, we do not participate in decision-making in Brussels, but we loyally abide by Brussels’ decisions. We have incorporated approximately three-quarters of all EU legislative acts into Norwegian legislation – and counting. We have legally secured access to the single market, and we practise the free movement of people,"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model)

This quote from BBC article today........
"It is possible that the UK will accept the continuation of free movement in order to retain preferential access to the single market, in which case we will continue to be able to travel freely in the EU."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619817 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619817)

What a farce - so if they accept the continuation of free movement then the main reason most people voted OUT is obsolete.  $good$

Well played nit wits, well played


This was fully explained by the Remain side but the Leavers chose not to listen.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2016, 03:19:43 PM
From the BBC News just now.

Drivers could face higher petrol and diesel prices as a result of the vote to leave the EU, retailers suggest.
Brian Madderson, chairman of the Petrol Retailers Association, said that a rise of 2p-3p a litre was on the cards.
He said the plunge in the value of the pound against the dollar would have an immediate impact, as wholesale fuel prices are quoted in dollars.
The rises were likely to be implemented on forecourts next week, he said.

So, nice work everybody!
That simply pushes more cost into the supply chain too, higher prices for everything on the way!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 24, 2016, 04:15:41 PM
Sources within Morgan Stanley say it has already begun the process of moving about 2,000 of its London-based investment banking staff to Dublin or Frankfurt. And it has a taskforce in place.
The jobs which would be moved from the UK would be in euro clearing but also other investment banking functions and senior management.
The American investment bank needs to avail of the passporting system which allows banks to offer financial services in all countries in the EU without having to establish a permanent base in that member state.
The president of Morgan Stanley, Colm Kelleher, told Bloomberg two days ago that Brexit would be “the most consequential thing that we’ve ever seen since the war”.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 24, 2016, 04:20:13 PM
This quote from BBC article today........
"It is possible that the UK will accept the continuation of free movement in order to retain preferential access to the single market, in which case we will continue to be able to travel freely in the EU."

Correct me if I'm wrong but that is not a definitive statement, it is nothing more than speculation.    It may not happen but if it does then you can say you were correct all along
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 25, 2016, 08:21:57 AM
Rhuddlan passed this e-mail on to me this morning so I'm posting it on here in case anyone is interested


Petition
EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 25, 2016, 10:44:14 AM
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Rhuddlan passed this e-mail on to me this morning so I'm posting it on here in case anyone is interested


Petition
EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Does anyone know if that is genuine????
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 25, 2016, 11:01:05 AM
It's genuine, but I'm not entirely clear what it's saying. Do they want the government to retrospectively introduce such as rule? That's pretty unlikely, but the petition has garnered around half a million signatures since breakfast time.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 25, 2016, 11:27:59 AM
I think it's calling for a second referendum with new criteria so there is a clear decision rather than this last one where I pointed out only 37% of the electorate had actually voted to leave. This second one would call for a larger amount which I must be honest seems fairer seeing as it's such an important change to the country. Doubt it will succeed though, sadly.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 25, 2016, 11:45:16 AM
Over one million now........
1,141,077 Signatures

EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum

Parliament will consider this for a debate
Parliament considers all petitions that get more than 100,000 signatures for a debate

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 25, 2016, 12:17:48 PM
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This quote from BBC article today........
"It is possible that the UK will accept the continuation of free movement in order to retain preferential access to the single market, in which case we will continue to be able to travel freely in the EU."

Correct me if I'm wrong but that is not a definitive statement, it is nothing more than speculation.    It may not happen but if it does then you can say you were correct all along

Hugo, I would rather be wrong, than saying "I told you so" but I genuinely think this could happen, a lot of what I am reading today is hinting at this subject, as I mentioned above  " I am concerned about future decisions that will be made regarding "free movement" which in effect could nullify todays  "Leave" vote."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36575186 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36575186)
"The Remain camp said full access to the EU single market - the world's biggest free trade area with 500 million consumers - was crucial for the UK. But free movement of workers, payments into the EU budget and acceptance of the EU rulebook are conditions for that access.
The EU is unlikely to bend on those conditions, because it does not want more members to leave the club. The UK might well sign up to those conditions, but it would not be able to influence EU rules, as it would lack a vote."

Reading the BBC online news today is depressing......I can not find one good bit of news about this choice  $angry$   $angry$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 25, 2016, 12:32:49 PM
Now they come clean...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 25, 2016, 01:37:27 PM
It just gets better. Say hello to BREGRET, I kid you not!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 25, 2016, 02:00:53 PM
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It just gets better. Say hello to BREGRET, I kid you not!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html)

This is not the only example of "BREGRET" I am hearing a lot more .......

Someone has suggested a second poll alongside the 2nd referendum poll, .........How many of the leave voters have changed there mind and would vote remain now, that would be interesting.


Regarding the poll in Hugo,s post   
EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215)
There may be some confusion, the confirmation comes into your E mail account and is showing up in junk mail
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 25, 2016, 02:15:48 PM
"We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie,” she wrote.

Ha ha, well, if she had read this forum, she would have been warned about that very thing!!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 25, 2016, 02:31:53 PM
Seems to be an awful lot of near hysteria about. Probably from the same people that said it would be a disaster if we didnt join the Euro...  ;D

The people made their decision, that is what democracy is all about. Talk of a second referendum is just sour grapes ftom bad losers.  &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 25, 2016, 03:31:15 PM
And you really don't think the Leave camp wouldn't be screaming 'Fixed!' if they'd lost?  No, it was won through repeated lying, which they're now starting to admit. 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 25, 2016, 03:49:51 PM
Quote
The people made their decision, that is what democracy is all about.

Well, yes, but ought such a vital and crucial decision be taken by only two thirds of the voting population? Almost 16 million failed to vote.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 25, 2016, 04:24:00 PM
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Quote
The people made their decision, that is what democracy is all about.

Well, yes, but ought such a vital and crucial decision be taken by only two thirds of the voting population? Almost 16 million failed to vote.
Part of being a democracy is that people have the choice whether to vote or not. It doesnt make the result any less valid if they choose not to participate.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DVT on June 25, 2016, 04:37:40 PM
I'm sure I didn't just dream that Cameron said that if only three people voted and it was 2-1 to Leave then he would support that and get on with the job.

Some time ago he said that he had negotiated a deal whereby benefits for immigrants would not start for a few months, also if they were still unemployed after a few years they'd be sent back.  Yet last week he was saying that if Remain won then he would be able to put that proposal through to the EU for consideration and possible implementation.

So Cameron (a Remainer) was lying in suggesting that the deal re immigration had been done - it hadn't - only agreed that he could submit the proposal.  Now that he's lost he's thrown in the towel and expecting someone else to do the work he was elected to do.

A General Election now would throw up an interesting result as the main opposition party also do not have someone strong to carry out the wishes of the electorate!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 25, 2016, 06:25:16 PM
If it has shown up nothing else, it has exposed a lot of our MP's as liars, some more blatant than others and others being economical with the truth does not make them worthy of representing the people who have elected them.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 25, 2016, 07:59:13 PM
The campaign was a shambolic and divisive affair, it got more vitriolic as it went along.
The polarised views of both camps left no room for any sensible debate, just name calling and extreme, outlandish threats or promises.
We were bound to be lied to due the polarised nature of the single question.
All concerned should be ashamed of themselves.
I started this thread off saying it would be a poor show, but I never imagined it could have been as bad as it was.
Hell, it even resulted in the savage murder of an MP!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 25, 2016, 10:37:28 PM
I've been thinking about this, I don't actually want another referendum, I couldn't bear the shame of living in a country where more than 50% of the population were either too lazy to vote, or too stupid to understand a simple question and its implications. 
By the way, I am NOT calling LEAVE voters those things, it's just how the whole of Britain will look to the rest of the world.  If there is another one, I'll vote LEAVE just to protest !!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 26, 2016, 07:43:26 AM
If we weren't in the middle of it, it would be fascinating to watch from afar as the two main parties have become so utterly divided and chaotic that what happens next is anyone's guess. Talk about a general election isn't that far from what might well happen. The interesting conundrum is what DaveR said earlier:

"The people made their decision, that is what democracy is all about."


However, the truly curious aspect is that Dave's both right and wrong. Yes - the majority of those who could be bothered to make the effort to vote did indeed choose out, but that same electorate also democratically chose 650 MPs to take major decisions for them, and the vast majority of those democratically elected MPs are for Remaining within the EU. The House now has to debate the fastest growing petition ever, demanding a second referendum, and the paradox they face is in resolving their democratically elected mandate with the democratically determined result. The only feasible option for many will be the calling of another general election, but it remains to be seen how many MPs will be prepared to jeopardise their comfy and well-paid jobs by going to the country.

We truly live in interesting times...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 26, 2016, 07:47:28 AM
From the Guardian comments:

"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign."
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 26, 2016, 09:46:13 AM
I see that those Leave voters who work for Tata Steel have shot themselves in the foot.

3 of the bidders for Tata Steel have pulled out due to the Brexit decision.
They can't say they weren't warned!  &shake& &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 26, 2016, 11:18:49 AM
"The fastest growing petition ever"
Petition
EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum

3,065,391 signatures


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 26, 2016, 12:02:26 PM
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I see that those Leave voters who work for Tata Steel have shot themselves in the foot.

3 of the bidders for Tata Steel have pulled out due to the Brexit decision.
They can't say they weren't warned!  &shake& &shake&

Just arguing against myself for a moment, the above decision is quite illogical really.
The falling sterling, making exports cheaper, would make Tata more viable, not less.
So, perhaps we are seeing a convenient way of getting out of those talks, because Tata was even more of a lame duck than they thought before they looked at the books?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 26, 2016, 12:46:36 PM
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"The fastest growing petition ever"
Petition
EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum

3,065,391 signatures


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


It has now gone up to  3,159,446
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 26, 2016, 12:59:13 PM
What a mess for the Labour Party


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36632956 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36632956)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 26, 2016, 02:27:47 PM
More referendum deceit......

National embarrassment, humiliating, sickening, there can't be many unused adjectives to describe the mess we are in......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238)

For the first time ever since the creation of the earth, I heard Nicola Sturgeon say something useful, in that she suggests that the SNP and Scottish Parliament could veto the UK exit of the EU.... clutching at straws springs to mind, but at this time, any glimmer of hope helps. I'm certain that the NI parties will back her as well.   
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 26, 2016, 03:06:40 PM
Breakdown of the voting patterns by multiple factors:

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ (http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 26, 2016, 06:18:01 PM
According to the BBC News  ten members of the shadow cabinet have now resigned,           Jeremy Corbyn is the greatest asset the Tory party has ever had and if he remains as leader of the Labour party then the Tory government, as bad as it is,  will continue in power for many years to come.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 26, 2016, 06:43:12 PM
This is fascinating:

http://keithharris.org/petition/ (http://keithharris.org/petition/)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 26, 2016, 07:28:34 PM
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This is fascinating:

http://keithharris.org/petition/ (http://keithharris.org/petition/)

I thought Orville was taking the ****       ;)     but it appears to be genuine, as you say fascinating, I estimate 1000 votes every 2mins.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 26, 2016, 08:07:30 PM
It's not really fascinating, it has zero chance of success.
Apart from (apparently) there being more than 30,000 names from The Vatican, i.e. loads of fictitious names,  it is calling for retrospective legislation.
You can't change the rules of the original referendum.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on June 26, 2016, 09:25:59 PM
Ironically, it was set up by a LEAVE campaigner a month ago when it looked like REMAIN were going to win!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fears-new-brexit-vote-petition-8286529 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fears-new-brexit-vote-petition-8286529)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 27, 2016, 07:28:31 AM
Yes - the only difference it's likely to make is to turn the pressure up on the Tories.  I imagine the Remain camp wanted there to be a significant majority either way but were almost certainly shouted down by the Leave people.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 27, 2016, 08:09:08 AM
Osborne says that UK is in a position of strength.           ???


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36637732 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36637732)


Will the tax avoiding Osborne be the next Tory to go?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 27, 2016, 08:42:07 AM
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Yes - the only difference it's likely to make is to turn the pressure up on the Tories. 
I can't see how an online petition where anyone can vote as often as they like by making up new email addresses is remotely worth taking notice of?  8)

Speaking of Corbyn...I don't remotely agree with his politics, but I think he's a decent and honourable man who is being treated shamefully at present by members of his own party.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 27, 2016, 08:45:04 AM
Quote
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For the first time ever since the creation of the earth, I heard Nicola Sturgeon say something useful, in that she suggests that the SNP and Scottish Parliament could veto the UK exit of the EU.... clutching at straws springs to mind, but at this time, any glimmer of hope helps. I'm certain that the NI parties will back her as well.
Unfortunately, she is completely deluded. She was talking on Andrew Marr yesterday about Scotland remaining a member of the EU. She apparently isn't aware that Scotland isn't a member of the EU at present, only the United Kingdom is.

Apparently, it's a complex web of Scottish legislation that might allow her to scupper Brexit. I have no idea of the legal intricacies involved, though.

Edit: sorry, Dave;  no idea how I've just done that :-))  It ought to have been a new post
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 27, 2016, 08:58:47 AM
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Yes - the only difference it's likely to make is to turn the pressure up on the Tories. 
I can't see how an online petition where anyone can vote as often as they like by making up new email addresses is remotely worth taking notice of?  8)

Speaking of Corbyn...I don't remotely agree with his politics, but I think he's a decent and honourable man who is being treated shamefully at present by members of his own party.

The online petition in question requires an active email address and you have to verify that by clicking on a link in an email they send you.

On the matter of Corbyn, I would argue it's the other way around. But no doubt we shall see in due course. After his sterling performance in the Scottish Parliament elections one wonders what the UK result might be.  And I suspect a general election isn't that far off.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 27, 2016, 09:32:29 AM
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The online petition in question requires an active email address and you have to verify that by clicking on a link in an email they send you.
Anyone can set up 20 or 30 email addresses in an hour if they want to, even if they have to verify the address to activate it.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 27, 2016, 10:36:10 AM
Ha!  Boris Johnson back peddling like mad this morning, suddenly 'Immigration isn't the big problem',  'no rush to trigger article 50',  'period of stability needed', plus loads more. I thought I was listening to David Cameron.
Leave voters already being sold down the river?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 27, 2016, 10:50:13 AM
Immigration was the main reason I and many others voted leave, especially after the idiot Merkel let that lot in to Germany! I was on the fence until the last minute with voting, I want the points system so only those useful to the UK are allowed in.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 27, 2016, 10:54:14 AM
The petition now stands at 3,653,323 signatures

You can see how many people where you live have signed the petition for a second EU referendum.
http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=131215 (http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=131215)


2,869 signatures from Abercopnwy
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 27, 2016, 11:04:33 AM
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Immigration was the main reason I and many others voted leave, especially after the idiot Merkel let that lot in to Germany! I was on the fence until the last minute with voting, I want the points system so only those useful to the UK are allowed in.

Well, they've changed their minds now mate, but you can't   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Noticed the impact on your shares ME?  Down 80p in 2 weeks.   &shake&
It was all so predictable.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 27, 2016, 11:51:01 AM
It just gets worse with Jeremy Corbyn


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36638041 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36638041)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 27, 2016, 11:54:11 AM
Yes have noticed the GVC share price, not good, but so many said you must vote, blah, blah, I would have liked a 3rd option for remain but with many reforms! As it was we did not know who to believe so thought, let's have a change! I'm sure the share price will recover!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 27, 2016, 11:57:36 AM
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It just gets worse with Jeremy Corbyn


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36638041 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36638041)

It's a bizarre situation, with Corbyn having overwhelming support form the party members, yet pretty much no support from his own MPs.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 27, 2016, 12:09:41 PM
... and the list of possibilities for next Prime Minister is even worse!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 27, 2016, 12:10:33 PM
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Yes have noticed the GVC share price, not good, but so many said you must vote, blah, blah, I would have liked a 3rd option for remain but with many reforms! As it was we did not know who to believe so thought, let's have a change! I'm sure the share price will recover!

Shares go up and down so just hold tight ME.       You are luckier than I was,  I had ordinary shares in Bradford and Bingley and when they went bust and the Government bailed them out I was told by the Government that those shares were worth nothing.
I bet the Chairman of the B &B Bank got a fat bonus despite the damage caused, myself I'd have liked to have given him a fat lip.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 27, 2016, 02:07:04 PM
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The online petition in question requires an active email address and you have to verify that by clicking on a link in an email they send you.
Anyone can set up 20 or 30 email addresses in an hour if they want to, even if they have to verify the address to activate it.

But 3000? Lot of trouble to go to for what seems a very little reward.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 27, 2016, 03:50:49 PM
Will of the people, will of the people, waaaaah waaaaah waaaah   :-[

This is all I hear about from the leavers!

The will of the 'people' was misguided and plain wrong. It shouldn't have been put in their hands in the first place.
What exactly do we pay politicians for?

If something goes wrong with my Gas supply I get an expert out to fix it, that's because that's the safest thing to do. What I don't do is get everyone in my street together and do a survey on how best we all think it should be fixed and then plough right ahead with whatever decision we collectively make.

Forget a 2nd referendum the so called government need to have the footballs to do what they know is best and forget this idiotic vote ever happened.  $good$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 27, 2016, 03:56:27 PM
It’s not over yet. A law that passed last year to set up the EU referendum said nothing about the result being binding or having any legal force. “Sovereignty” – a much misunderstood word in the campaign – resides in Britain with the “Queen in parliament”, that is with MPs alone who can make or break laws and peers who can block them. Before Brexit can be triggered, parliament must repeal the 1972 European Communities Act by which it voted to take us into the European Union – and MPs have every right, and indeed a duty if they think it best for Britain, to vote to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 27, 2016, 04:07:31 PM
Yes - we certainly do live in interesting times...  Z@@
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 27, 2016, 08:27:42 PM
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Will of the people, will of the people, waaaaah waaaaah waaaah   :-[

This is all I hear about from the leavers!

The will of the 'people' was misguided and plain wrong. It shouldn't have been put in their hands in the first place.
What exactly do we pay politicians for?

If something goes wrong with my Gas supply I get an expert out to fix it, that's because that's the safest thing to do. What I don't do is get everyone in my street together and do a survey on how best we all think it should be fixed and then plough right ahead with whatever decision we collectively make.

Forget a 2nd referendum the so called government need to have the footballs to do what they know is best and forget this idiotic vote ever happened.  $good$

At last, some has had the backbone to write what we are all thinking, believing and longing for.

I'm impressed.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 27, 2016, 10:45:35 PM
I'm surprised at you Born to Run,  always a man of democracy and of 'the people'
The People have spoken, and even though I agree it's a travesty, it is what it is, and must be managed to its conclusion.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on June 28, 2016, 06:44:48 AM
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I'm surprised at you Born to Run,  always a man of democracy and of 'the people'
The People have spoken, and even though I agree it's a travesty, it is what it is, and must be managed to its conclusion.

As it was in 1930's Germany?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2016, 08:04:51 AM
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I'm surprised at you Born to Run,  always a man of democracy and of 'the people'
The People have spoken, and even though I agree it's a travesty, it is what it is, and must be managed to its conclusion.

As it was in 1930's Germany?


They had Nietzsche, which changed the playing field a bit... And B2R has a valid point, really, in that far fewer than should be needed bothered to vote, so it wasn't really true democracy - merely a representative faction - a bit like Parliament. But I suspect what I find so depressing is that so many clearly swallowed the lies the Leave camp told, and which - of course - they're now rapidly retracting. So we must wait and see what happens.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 28, 2016, 09:02:38 AM
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And B2R has a valid point, really, in that far fewer than should be needed bothered to vote, so it wasn't really true democracy - merely a representative faction - a bit like Parliament.
72% of the electorate voted, which seems a decent enough level to me. 100% of the electorate had the ability to vote, which is the important thing. If the result had gone the other way, I suspect you wouldn't be complaining about it?  :laugh:

I suspect what annoys B2R most of all is that his beloved Jeremy Corbyn is the man most responsible for delivering a LEAVE result, as he made no effort whatsoever to persuade Labour voters to vote REMAIN and it was the Labour heartlands of NE England that delivered the largest LEAVE vote.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2016, 09:34:03 AM
 :D

I've long wondered if we should adopt the Aussie system of compulsory voting. On a matter as serious as this, it might have been a good idea. But the really big danger is in the whole concept that major decisions can be put to referenda. Once you've done that for one thing the question becomes how you determine the next.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on June 28, 2016, 10:08:32 AM
Jeremy Corbyn latest

Up to 150 Labour MP's expected to vote against Corbyn



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiH9aebr8rNAhWlJ8AKHZySBtEQqQIIHTAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F06%2F28%2Flabour-crisis-vote-jeremy-corbyn-leadership-david-cameron-brexit%2F&usg=AFQjCNF-rRQ2w9i8gH4xZf2PYk7_Q3FAFQ&bvm=bv.125596728,d.ZGg (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiH9aebr8rNAhWlJ8AKHZySBtEQqQIIHTAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F06%2F28%2Flabour-crisis-vote-jeremy-corbyn-leadership-david-cameron-brexit%2F&usg=AFQjCNF-rRQ2w9i8gH4xZf2PYk7_Q3FAFQ&bvm=bv.125596728,d.ZGg)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 28, 2016, 10:19:11 AM
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And B2R has a valid point, really, in that far fewer than should be needed bothered to vote, so it wasn't really true democracy - merely a representative faction - a bit like Parliament.
72% of the electorate voted, which seems a decent enough level to me. 100% of the electorate had the ability to vote, which is the important thing. If the result had gone the other way, I suspect you wouldn't be complaining about it?  :laugh:

I suspect what annoys B2R most of all is that his beloved Jeremy Corbyn is the man most responsible for delivering a LEAVE result, as he made no effort whatsoever to persuade Labour voters to vote REMAIN and it was the Labour heartlands of NE England that delivered the largest LEAVE vote.

It seems that most traditional Labour voters are fed up about immigration, they see EU migrants coming in and taking there jobs, even second generation Asians here do not like the EU migrants coming in and taking jobs and lowering wages. Then they see Corbyn endlessly waffling on about fighting racism, so they voted out, in large numbers, Corbyn does not represent in any way the views of the British working class, the world he wants will never exist.  &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 28, 2016, 11:15:06 AM
Merddin, I'm looking forward then to seeing all these 'working class' leave voters rushing over to the east of England to start picking crops and planting seeds for 10 hours a day.
The term working class is a misnomer now, there is no such thing.
At the base of the structure is a 'benefits' class, a massive group of folk who either can't work, have never worked or see themselves as above work.
We all know who they are, and these folk will not do the jobs that puts the food on the shelves in the supermarket.
Hardly any of them are physically fit enough to even try.
We are about to see massive changes to our cushy lives.  I believe it will revolve around availability of goods, much higher prices than now for imported or home grown goods, and problems with foreign travel.
Why should the French now hold back any migrants on their way to Britain?  Wave them straight through is what they will do. They are a massive drain on French resources.
I expect to see a lot of 'useful' migrants, (your words), replaced by hordes of somewhat different ones.
Rumblings of social unrest, which I warned about on this forum in connection with cutting police numbers, has already started to bubble up.



Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 28, 2016, 12:44:12 PM
I have never been a Labour voter, just repeating what I saw on the tv news, I have no problem personally with useful migrants,  Just do not want the bad ones! Everyone kept saying you have to vote, can't complain if you don't vote etc, seems that some people do not like it when you do vote either. I tend to think that a good shake up to the politicians could be a good reminder of what people think.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 28, 2016, 12:44:29 PM
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Merddin, I'm looking forward then to seeing all these 'working class' leave voters rushing over to the east of England to start picking crops and planting seeds for 10 hours a day.
There would be nothing to stop anyone staying in the UK to work for a few months, then returning home. That has always happened, long before we joined the EU. What would be removed would be the right of abode in the UK.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 28, 2016, 02:01:27 PM
An elderly customer of mine today recounted a tale from her stay in The Marlborough Hotel this week, where she enquired of the 'nice Lithuanian girl that's been there for years' .... (her words)

'So you've been voted out now love, how long before you have to go home'

She said, 'I think I upset her, but I didn't mean to, she's quite nice that one, I always giver a tip every time I come here'

I had my palms on my face.  &shake& &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2016, 02:04:02 PM
Quote
There would be nothing to stop anyone staying in the UK to work for a few months, then returning home. That has always happened, long before we joined the EU. What would be removed would be the right of abode in the UK.

Just a pity that so many (the majority) come from India and Pakistan. They then live here, because they already have family here. I'm a little unclear how leaving the EU will change that.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2016, 04:23:25 PM
And so it continues...

http://www.theguardian.com/media/mediamonkeyblog/2016/jun/27/regrets-ive-had-a-few-kelvin-mackenzie-and-the-great-brexit-u-turn (http://www.theguardian.com/media/mediamonkeyblog/2016/jun/27/regrets-ive-had-a-few-kelvin-mackenzie-and-the-great-brexit-u-turn)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 28, 2016, 04:56:21 PM
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Just a pity that so many (the majority) come from India and Pakistan. They then live here, because they already have family here. I'm a little unclear how leaving the EU will change that.

Your post made me think who can come into the UK, started Googling as I do, still looking, but thought you might find this site interesting, .........
http://immigrationmatters.co.uk/uk-border-agency-rules-for-bulgarian-and-romanian-nationals.html (http://immigrationmatters.co.uk/uk-border-agency-rules-for-bulgarian-and-romanian-nationals.html)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2016, 08:12:00 PM
And now the yobs, inspired by the leave vote, are starting to harass the Polish.  In many ways Britain's greatest allies, who gave their all during the war and put up stiffer resistance to the Nazis than any occupied country. Hope the Leave camp are proud of what they've achieved.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 28, 2016, 08:35:39 PM
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And now the yobs, inspired by the leave vote, are starting to harass the Polish.  In many ways Britain's greatest allies, who gave their all during the war and put up stiffer resistance to the Nazis than any occupied country. Hope the Leave camp are proud of what they've achieved.

Well said.   $good$

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_contribution_to_World_War_II

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Big Alan on June 29, 2016, 05:34:50 AM
I predict a riot.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 29, 2016, 07:59:56 AM
Sadly, I think you may well be right about that.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 29, 2016, 08:48:17 AM
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And now the yobs, inspired by the leave vote, are starting to harass the Polish.  In many ways Britain's greatest allies, who gave their all during the war and put up stiffer resistance to the Nazis than any occupied country. Hope the Leave camp are proud of what they've achieved.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales)
Yes, because there were never any racist incidents in the UK before last Friday...

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 29, 2016, 09:10:46 AM
But are they now being given a legitimacy they didn't have before? And against the Polish? And, now the Leave leaders have backtracked on all the Lies promises they made, what wonderful things can we expect from our exit?  Apart, that is, from a divided Britain, soon to be a divided England and Wales...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 29, 2016, 09:48:40 AM
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But are they now being given a legitimacy they didn't have before? And against the Polish? And, now the Leave leaders have backtracked on all the Lies promises they made, what wonderful things can we expect from our exit?  Apart, that is, from a divided Britain, soon to be a divided England and Wales...
What legitimacy? The vote was on whether the UK would remain a member of the European Union or not, nothing else. Trying to blame any racist incident that occurs now on the result of that vote is pure sophistry.  &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 29, 2016, 10:20:27 AM
You might think that, but you can't deny that the central plank of Leave's campaign was immigration and I believe they played on the (perhaps) subconscious fears of many. It's long been believed that UKIP, whose rise has always been regarded as the initiator of the Tories' eventual acquiescence to a referendum, is essentially a racist party, although it professes not to be so. The referendum result is very likely to be viewed by those already predisposed to racism and all its connotations to be almost a 'green light' for more open racist behaviour. I really hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we may be moving into an era of xenophobic-inspired politics, where fear will be seen as the biggest vote-winner.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DVT on June 29, 2016, 12:13:33 PM
Surely it's wrong to say that UKIP is a racist party ... from what I've heard they are happy for immigrants to come into this country - but they have to be ones that will be good for the country (as most of the ones we have are, whether they work for the National Health or any of the more menial jobs).

What we don't want is the dross that is coming over by the boatloads, into Europe from north Africa and the middle east, along with the eastern Europeans.  The various mainland countries just pass them through until they reach us - and they have nowhere to go unless they find a bigger boat that can carry them across the Atlantic.

But once they're here we happily hand them the financial and residential help to make them want to stay, and even contribute to their families back home.

Cameron said that he had negotiated a deal whereby they get no benefit handouts for a few months, then are sent "home" if they don't get a job.  That was one (not the only one) of the reasons I voted Leave.

Turns out he hadn't secured a deal - only an agreement that he could put that proposal forward after the referendum.  Lies from Cameron the Remainer - surely not.

We have enough UK home-grown dross without getting any more.



Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 29, 2016, 12:16:30 PM
DVT, spot on!  $good$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 29, 2016, 12:39:07 PM
This article goes some way to explaining my concerns for the future, in or out, it is the deal we make that is important, covering everybody's concerns, if we do not get this right...........

Give voters the final say on Brexit .
A Welsh MP is leading a bid to ensure the people of Britain get to have their say on a future Brexit deal struck between the UK Government and the EU.

Swansea West Labour MP Geraint Davies is calling for the package to be put to the country in a referendum – with the chance to stay in the EU if it is rejected.

Mr Davies said: “The fundamental issue at stake now is that the British people get a say on whether they accept the terms of leaving the EU and, if not satisfied, the opportunity to stay; 4 million people have petitioned to say they want another referendum.”

Article 50 is triggered, there should be a Bill requiring the Government to call a referendum on the terms of the UK exit package from the EU, and associated constitutional changes, and an option to remain on current terms if this is not agreed.”

Stressing the need for a deal to be ratified by voters, he said: “It’s crucial that UK citizens agree on the terms of leaving the EU and, if not satisfied, have the opportunity to opt for the UK to remain an EU member. Therefore, the Government must ensure that there be a referendum allowing UK citizens to agree on the terms of the UK EU exit package and associated constitutional changes or the option to remain and that this referendum should be called before Article 50 is triggered.”

MORE  http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/give-voters-final-say-brexit-11537951 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/give-voters-final-say-brexit-11537951)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 29, 2016, 01:39:48 PM
I think Hunt suggested the same thing.

DVT: I don't fundamentally disagree with you. We do need to control immigration, although the service industry around here would be in a pretty dire state without EU workers. But I do feel the campaign played on fear far too much - in both directions.  What wasn't given sufficient coverage was the risk to the UK - which now stands a better than evens chance of disintegrating and at least of losing Scotland - but another aspect which is, to my mind, anyway, important.

We're a wealthy and powerful economy. We're always being told we're the fifth largest economy in the world, we already have the tools to control immigration as I've shown before, and it seems to me that if we're that wealthy and that powerful (so the Leave campaign keep telling us) not only do we have nothing to fear from immigration but we do, in fact, have a degree of responsibility to help out the dispossessed of other countries. Despite what the DFM would have us believe, I don't really believe the vast majority of those risking their lives to get to Europe did so simply because they fancied a holiday.

Mass migrations of people throughout history have proved impossible to contain but perhaps our role should be one of exerting political and diplomatic pressure on the wealthy gulf states to take many of their fellow Arabs in, in addition to providing non-financial aid to those still in their own countries to allow them to remain. I realise this may not be a popular suggestion but we're not isolated from world events.  We're part of them, and I seriously doubt leaving the EU will make any difference whatsoever to our migration levels and might, if the French wash their hands of the Calais camps, actually aggravate the situation.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 29, 2016, 01:57:06 PM
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And now the yobs, inspired by the leave vote, are starting to harass the Polish.  In many ways Britain's greatest allies, who gave their all during the war and put up stiffer resistance to the Nazis than any occupied country. Hope the Leave camp are proud of what they've achieved.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales)

I don't think anyone. Polish, or otherwise has the right to be harassed because of their nationality!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 29, 2016, 02:48:39 PM
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What we don't want is the dross that is coming over by the boatloads, into Europe from north Africa and the middle east, along with the eastern Europeans.  The various mainland countries just pass them through until they reach us -

Ha ha, DVT, they certainly will NOW!
The ignorance involved in that statement is breathtaking,  didn't you know that the EU rules state that migrants must now register for asylum in the country in which they arrive (say Greece), and not the EU country they want to get to? (say UK)
This is why Greece and other countries have been absorbing the Syrian migrants and Italy has absorbed the N African one's.
But from now on, they will indeed wave them through.
What has been unleashed here is disastrous, and the Leave politicians have no plan, no strategy of how to deal with it.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 29, 2016, 03:18:25 PM
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I think Hunt suggested the same thing.

Thanks Ian, I had missed that.    The Jeremy Hunt article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/after-brexit-we-can-no-longer-ignore-fears-about-immigration/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/after-brexit-we-can-no-longer-ignore-fears-about-immigration/)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DVT on June 29, 2016, 09:02:41 PM
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What has been unleashed here is disastrous, and the Leave politicians have no plan, no strategy of how to deal with it.

It also seems that the Remain camp had no real plan if they won (which they didn't), and certainly no contingency plan if they lost (which they did).  Faced with that DC spat his dummy out and there seems to be no-one capable of doing the best for (Great) Britain.

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 30, 2016, 08:02:33 AM
But if they'd won they wouldn't have needed a plan, surely?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 30, 2016, 09:11:13 AM
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didn't you know that the EU rules state that migrants must now register for asylum in the country in which they arrive (say Greece), and not the EU country they want to get to? (say UK)
This is why Greece and other countries have been absorbing the Syrian migrants and Italy has absorbed the N African one's.
But from now on, they will indeed wave them through.
So you're saying that EU Countries just ignore EU rules when they feel like it? Doesn't sound like the greatest organisation to be a member of!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on June 30, 2016, 09:17:00 AM
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perhaps our role should be one of exerting political and diplomatic pressure on the wealthy gulf states to take many of their fellow Arabs in, in addition to providing non-financial aid to those still in their own countries to allow them to remain.
I'm wondering why the Gulf States are able, by your own admission,  to successfully say no to migrants entering their countries, yet you're saying we can't do the same thing?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 30, 2016, 11:14:00 AM
Here we go again, "Free Movement" keeps creeping into the news, and no one seems bothered.      &shake&

Brexit: Freedom of movement 'on the table' for forthcoming talks.

Freedom of movement will be "on the table" when the UK negotiates its withdrawal from the EU, French Finance Minister Michel Sapin says.
EU leaders have warned Britain that it would have to accept the free movement of EU citizens, if it still wanted to have access to the single market.
But Mr Sapin told the BBC's Newsnight that everything - including free movement - was up for discussion.
He added that the UK should now leave the EU "as quickly as possible".
But he said this was not to punish the UK, as he believed the country would "encounter real difficulties" and there was no need to "amplify" them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36669252 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36669252)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 30, 2016, 11:35:44 AM
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perhaps our role should be one of exerting political and diplomatic pressure on the wealthy gulf states to take many of their fellow Arabs in, in addition to providing non-financial aid to those still in their own countries to allow them to remain.
I'm wondering why the Gulf States are able, by your own admission,  to successfully say no to migrants entering their countries, yet you're saying we can't do the same thing?

I suspect the EU accepts them on compassionate grounds.  The UK can refuse them, but might accept them on similar grounds. What would you do?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 30, 2016, 11:44:39 AM
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didn't you know that the EU rules state that migrants must now register for asylum in the country in which they arrive (say Greece), and not the EU country they want to get to? (say UK)
This is why Greece and other countries have been absorbing the Syrian migrants and Italy has absorbed the N African one's.
But from now on, they will indeed wave them through.
So you're saying that EU Countries just ignore EU rules when they feel like it? Doesn't sound like the greatest organisation to be a member of!

No, what I'm saying is that while we are in the EU, the French have been 'persuaded' to hold back the hordes at Calais, but going forward,after Brexit, they have been quite open about saying that the arrangement is no longer a firm one.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on June 30, 2016, 12:16:58 PM
Boris out.......

“I have concluded that person cannot be me” says Boris Johnson ruling himself out of Conservative election race. ref BBC


And another petition just passed on to me.

https://www.change.org/p/last-and-only-option-left-to-keep-the-uk-in-eu-stop-article-50-from-being-invoked?recruiter=229670901&utm_source=share_petition&utm_ (https://www.change.org/p/last-and-only-option-left-to-keep-the-uk-in-eu-stop-article-50-from-being-invoked?recruiter=229670901&utm_source=share_petition&utm_)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on June 30, 2016, 02:19:33 PM
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But are they now being given a legitimacy they didn't have before? And against the Polish? And, now the Leave leaders have backtracked on all the Lies promises they made, what wonderful things can we expect from our exit?  Apart, that is, from a divided Britain, soon to be a divided England and Wales...
What legitimacy? The vote was on whether the UK would remain a member of the European Union or not, nothing else. Trying to blame any racist incident that occurs now on the result of that vote is pure sophistry.  &shake&

I've just received an e mail from Unite's head office that begins

"I am sickened as a union officer to be receiving reports form our members in Wales of increased racism being directed at Unite members in our workplaces and communities."

Coincidence? Yeah cause it is  &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 30, 2016, 02:47:25 PM
I keep hearing people say that no one intervenes when racist incidents flare up on trains etc.
Well, I'm waiting for the inevitable example of someone who does grab hold of one of these thugs and either get their head kicked in, or get prosecuted for aggravated assault.
The law is not on the side of the 'have a go hero'
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 30, 2016, 04:02:45 PM
No, it isn't.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 01, 2016, 08:47:02 AM
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perhaps our role should be one of exerting political and diplomatic pressure on the wealthy gulf states to take many of their fellow Arabs in, in addition to providing non-financial aid to those still in their own countries to allow them to remain.
I'm wondering why the Gulf States are able, by your own admission,  to successfully say no to migrants entering their countries, yet you're saying we can't do the same thing?

I suspect the EU accepts them on compassionate grounds.  The UK can refuse them, but might accept them on similar grounds. What would you do?
If they're escaping a war torn country (and no-one can blame them for doing so), they should go to the nearest safe country. Why do they need to travel through 8 or more safe countries to come to the UK?

Furthermore, large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place. Do you believe they should be allowed to come and live in the UK?

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 01, 2016, 08:50:36 AM
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But are they now being given a legitimacy they didn't have before? And against the Polish? And, now the Leave leaders have backtracked on all the Lies promises they made, what wonderful things can we expect from our exit?  Apart, that is, from a divided Britain, soon to be a divided England and Wales...
What legitimacy? The vote was on whether the UK would remain a member of the European Union or not, nothing else. Trying to blame any racist incident that occurs now on the result of that vote is pure sophistry.  &shake&

I've just received an e mail from Unite's head office that begins

"I am sickened as a union officer to be receiving reports form our members in Wales of increased racism being directed at Unite members in our workplaces and communities."

Coincidence? Yeah cause it is  &shake&
Can we see real real facts please, rather than tittle tattle?

How about this..

"Ch Insp Daniel Howe, of South Wales Police, said: "Since the referendum result last week, there has been no noticeable increase in reports of hate crime to South Wales Police in Cardiff.""

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36640447 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36640447)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on July 01, 2016, 10:58:18 AM
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perhaps our role should be one of exerting political and diplomatic pressure on the wealthy gulf states to take many of their fellow Arabs in, in addition to providing non-financial aid to those still in their own countries to allow them to remain.
I'm wondering why the Gulf States are able, by your own admission,  to successfully say no to migrants entering their countries, yet you're saying we can't do the same thing?

I suspect the EU accepts them on compassionate grounds.  The UK can refuse them, but might accept them on similar grounds. What would you do?
If they're escaping a war torn country (and no-one can blame them for doing so), they should go to the nearest safe country. Why do they need to travel through 8 or more safe countries to come to the UK?

Furthermore, large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place. Do you believe they should be allowed to come and live in the UK?

How can the nearest safe country contain all of them? The nearest safe country is not a TARDIS!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 01, 2016, 11:20:39 AM
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perhaps our role should be one of exerting political and diplomatic pressure on the wealthy gulf states to take many of their fellow Arabs in, in addition to providing non-financial aid to those still in their own countries to allow them to remain.
I'm wondering why the Gulf States are able, by your own admission,  to successfully say no to migrants entering their countries, yet you're saying we can't do the same thing?

I suspect the EU accepts them on compassionate grounds.  The UK can refuse them, but might accept them on similar grounds. What would you do?
If they're escaping a war torn country (and no-one can blame them for doing so), they should go to the nearest safe country. Why do they need to travel through 8 or more safe countries to come to the UK?

Furthermore, large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place. Do you believe they should be allowed to come and live in the UK?

On your first point they have to make land in one country, obviously, and that's where they have to register.  After that they might well choose to move to a country where they have relatives or - because your forebears attempted to eliminate them in genocidal attacks and, many years later, attempted to exploit them once they discovered the value of oil and essentially occupied them for many years - they speak English and wanted to choose a country where English is spoken.  Those from ex-colonies tend to head back to the occupying country.  That's why France has so many.

More interestingly, do you really believe the country in which they first arrive should be the only one that accepts responsibility for them?

On the second point you say "large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place." but are they claiming asylum? I also dispute your claim they're a 'Large number', certainly from the Far East. And being in or out of the EU will make absolutely no difference to those seeking to get into the UK.

And describing Africa and the Far East as places "where there is no conflict taking place" is incorrect. Islamic insurgencies and terrorism have always been an issue in the Far East while Africa was where ISIS was almost certainly formed and is gradually becoming a battleground between ISIS and moderates in Islam.

And your argument regarding immigration fails to even mention that the country from which the most migrants arrive is India. Nothing to do with the EU, then.

Finally, I will answer your question, despite the fact that you've dodged mine. I do believe the UK has a global responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves. If we're such a wealthy country, as the Leave camp kept telling us throughout their campaign, then obviously we could easily cope with a several million.  Unless of course, the Leave campaign was telling porkies...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 01, 2016, 11:50:35 AM
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On your first point they have to make land in one country, obviously, and that's where they have to register.  After that they might well choose to move to a country where they have relatives or - because your forebears attempted to eliminate them in genocidal attacks and, many years later, attempted to exploit them once they discovered the value of oil and essentially occupied them for many years - they speak English and wanted to choose a country where English is spoken.  Those from ex-colonies tend to head back to the occupying country.  That's why France has so many.
So all these people from Syria and Afghanistan attempting to enter the UK speak English...really?  :laugh:
Quote
More interestingly, do you really believe the country in which they first arrive should be the only one that accepts responsibility for them?
But isn't that the EU policy now? Hasn't the EU done a deal with Turkey for them to contain all the migrants there? Hasn't Donald Tusk told migrants they are not welcome in Europe?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/donald-tusk-economic-migrants-do-not-come-to-europe (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/donald-tusk-economic-migrants-do-not-come-to-europe)
Quote
On the second point you say "large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place." but are they claiming asylum? I also dispute your claim they're a 'Large number', certainly from the Far East. And being in or out of the EU will make absolutely no difference to those seeking to get into the UK.

And describing Africa and the Far East as places "where there is no conflict taking place" is incorrect. Islamic insurgencies and terrorism have always been an issue in the Far East while Africa was where ISIS was almost certainly formed and is gradually becoming a battleground between ISIS and moderates in Islam.
Well, approx 175,000 migrants came to Europe from Afghanistan alone in 2015, so I suppose it depends upon what you'd call a large number. Seems pretty large to me.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911)

Quote
And your argument regarding immigration fails to even mention that the country from which the most migrants arrive is India. Nothing to do with the EU, then.
Not according to this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911)

Quote
Finally, I will answer your question, despite the fact that you've dodged mine. I do believe the UK has a global responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves. If we're such a wealthy country, as the Leave camp kept telling us throughout their campaign, then obviously we could easily cope with a several million.  Unless of course, the Leave campaign was telling porkies...
No-one is saying that we shouldn't help people less fortunate than themselves. But surely it's better to help them in their own country or one nearby than expecting them to trek thousands of miles across unfamiliar countries to somewhere where they have no home, job, family?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 01, 2016, 11:51:52 AM
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perhaps our role should be one of exerting political and diplomatic pressure on the wealthy gulf states to take many of their fellow Arabs in, in addition to providing non-financial aid to those still in their own countries to allow them to remain.
I'm wondering why the Gulf States are able, by your own admission,  to successfully say no to migrants entering their countries, yet you're saying we can't do the same thing?

I suspect the EU accepts them on compassionate grounds.  The UK can refuse them, but might accept them on similar grounds. What would you do?
If they're escaping a war torn country (and no-one can blame them for doing so), they should go to the nearest safe country. Why do they need to travel through 8 or more safe countries to come to the UK?

Furthermore, large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place. Do you believe they should be allowed to come and live in the UK?

How can the nearest safe country contain all of them? The nearest safe country is not a TARDIS!
But that's EU Policy now, B2R. They've done a deal with Turkey for them to contain all of Syria's migrants. You'd better phone Donald Tusk up and tell him he's made a terrible mistake!  :laugh:
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 01, 2016, 02:28:56 PM
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On your first point they have to make land in one country, obviously, and that's where they have to register.  After that they might well choose to move to a country where they have relatives or - because your forebears attempted to eliminate them in genocidal attacks and, many years later, attempted to exploit them once they discovered the value of oil and essentially occupied them for many years - they speak English and wanted to choose a country where English is spoken.  Those from ex-colonies tend to head back to the occupying country.  That's why France has so many.
So all these people from Syria and Afghanistan attempting to enter the UK speak English...really?  :laugh:

Is that what I said? "All these people"? Come on, Dave; no need for straw men.  You're better than that :-))

Quote
Quote
More interestingly, do you really believe the country in which they first arrive should be the only one that accepts responsibility for them?
But isn't that the EU policy now? Hasn't the EU done a deal with Turkey for them to contain all the migrants there? Hasn't Donald Tusk told migrants they are not welcome in Europe?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/donald-tusk-economic-migrants-do-not-come-to-europe (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/donald-tusk-economic-migrants-do-not-come-to-europe)

Indeed, the EU is attempting to stem the tide of migrating Arabs and we have no idea as to how effective that policy will be.  The problem is that the EU's leaders had no coherent policy whatsoever at the outset. It's that lack of forethought that's created so many issues.

Quote
Quote
On the second point you say "large numbers of migrants are from countries in Africa and the Far East, where there is no conflict taking place." but are they claiming asylum? I also dispute your claim they're a 'Large number', certainly from the Far East. And being in or out of the EU will make absolutely no difference to those seeking to get into the UK.

And describing Africa and the Far East as places "where there is no conflict taking place" is incorrect. Islamic insurgencies and terrorism have always been an issue in the Far East while Africa was where ISIS was almost certainly formed and is gradually becoming a battleground between ISIS and moderates in Islam.
Well, approx 175,000 migrants came to Europe from Afghanistan alone in 2015, so I suppose it depends upon what you'd call a large number. Seems pretty large to me.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911)

Er... they're not actually in the Far East. The Far East is generally considered to include China, Hong Kong, Macau, Japan, Mongolia, Noprth and South Korea, Taiwan, Brunei, Cambodia, E Timor, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Burma - well, you get the drift.

Quote
Quote
And your argument regarding immigration fails to even mention that the country from which the most migrants arrive is India. Nothing to do with the EU, then.
Not according to this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911)

But the official statistical return shows "Net migration of EU citizens was estimated to be 184,000.  Non-EU net migration was 188,000. The largest number of applications for asylum, including dependants, came from nationals of Iran (4,811; +2,324), followed by Pakistan (3,511; -1), Iraq (3,374; +2,367), Eritrea (3,340; -270) and Afghanistan (3,133; +1,423). There were 2,235 (+680) Syrian nationals granted asylum or an alternative form of protection in the YE March 2016 and a further 1,667 Syrian nationals granted humanitarian protection under the Syrian Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme.

But the reality is making sense of the statistics on immigration is a mammoth task.  But this is a summary:
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Quote
Quote
Finally, I will answer your question, despite the fact that you've dodged mine. I do believe the UK has a global responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves. If we're such a wealthy country, as the Leave camp kept telling us throughout their campaign, then obviously we could easily cope with a several million.  Unless of course, the Leave campaign was telling porkies...
No-one is saying that we shouldn't help people less fortunate than themselves. But surely it's better to help them in their own country or one nearby than expecting them to trek thousands of miles across unfamiliar countries to somewhere where they have no home, job, family?

On that we're in complete agreement. I suspect the problems have arisen because of the ISIS threats, the randomly-imposed imposition of their brand of Sharia law and the rather dissolute nature of the previous Arab governments.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 01, 2016, 08:53:29 PM
This web-site was drawn to my attention a day or so ago, I'm embarrassed to say that I had no idea of it's existence until then -

https://fullfact.org/

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 02, 2016, 08:09:10 AM
Yes;  it's not always accurate, but it seems better than many.  But it's been open to a lot of criticism - not only because it's owned by a leading Tory donor:

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg (http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 02, 2016, 02:03:46 PM
From the Guardian yesterday:

"There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported, as migrants are taunted on the street, told to pack their bags and get out – as if 23 June were a permission slip to every racist and bigot in the land."

Pure sophistry? I don't think so.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on July 02, 2016, 03:07:18 PM
https://www.rt.com/uk/349077-hate-crime-increase-brexit/ (https://www.rt.com/uk/349077-hate-crime-increase-brexit/)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on July 04, 2016, 10:36:24 AM
Another one doing a runner before the s**t hits the fan!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-resigns-as-ukip-leader-a7118626.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-resigns-as-ukip-leader-a7118626.html)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 04, 2016, 10:57:12 AM
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From the Guardian yesterday:

"There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported, as migrants are taunted on the street, told to pack their bags and get out – as if 23 June were a permission slip to every racist and bigot in the land."

Pure sophistry? I don't think so.
Sounds impressive..until you actually read the original article it quotes, where it clearly states...

"It is important to remember that this is only one reporting mechanism and extensive focus on this issue in the last few days will have influenced these numbers by making hate crime and the site more visible and encouraging people to report.  We also cannot determine how many of reports are linked to the referendum."

http://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/sara-thornton-blog-unity-and-respect-needed-not-hate-crime-30-june-2016 (http://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/sara-thornton-blog-unity-and-respect-needed-not-hate-crime-30-june-2016)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 04, 2016, 11:41:59 AM
Sound advice that any reader of an article should follow, but I'm not sure how it changes the pertinent and essential fact: "There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported"
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on July 04, 2016, 12:32:33 PM
coincidence

 _))*
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 04, 2016, 01:13:22 PM
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Sound advice that any reader of an article should follow, but I'm not sure how it changes the pertinent and essential fact: "There has been a 500% increase in the number of hate crimes reported"
How can it be a fact when no numbers are quoted as to the actual number of incidents?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on July 04, 2016, 01:19:44 PM
The actual numbers were quoted in the link I posted after Ian's initial post.

“Since last Thursday, 331 hate crime incidents have been reported to the national online reporting site True Vision compared to the weekly average of 63 reports,” Sara Thornton, head of the NPCC, wrote, adding that, although “many people are reporting hate crime than ever before,” it remains “significantly under reported.”
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 04, 2016, 02:39:29 PM
On other forums people are reporting a lot of low-level (but nevertheless highly upsetting) incidents of anti-European abuse.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Big Alan on July 04, 2016, 03:39:47 PM
Have a look at 'worrying signs' group on Facebook. Some nasty stuff on there.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on July 04, 2016, 04:17:10 PM
Some disturbing examples on there Big Al!  :o :o :o
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 04, 2016, 06:47:02 PM
One thing has been a real puzzle to me; if Farage knew on the morning after the vote that the £350m to the NHS was 'a mistake', apart from the obvious conclusion that it was a lie by ommission of monumental proportions, what other reason could there be for him not saying this earlier? .........
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 05, 2016, 07:44:29 AM
Is that a serious question?  _))* _))* _))* They all knew perfectly well it was a lie. They knew that it was almost certainly going to be the votes of the less well informed that swung the election, which is why Farage produced that infamous and widely condemned poster of the immigrants queuing. He used a classic fear tactic, with no evidential basis.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on July 05, 2016, 09:17:04 AM
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Is that a serious question?  _))* _))* _))* They all knew perfectly well it was a lie. They knew that it was almost certainly going to be the votes of the less well informed that swung the election, which is why Farage produced that infamous and widely condemned poster of the immigrants queuing. He used a classic fear tactic, with no evidential basis.

"Less well informed"

 _))*
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 05, 2016, 10:59:59 AM
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Is that a serious question?  _))* _))* _))* They all knew perfectly well it was a lie. They knew that it was almost certainly going to be the votes of the less well informed that swung the election, which is why Farage produced that infamous and widely condemned poster of the immigrants queuing. He used a classic fear tactic, with no evidential basis.

Yes, it was a serious question, out of sheer incredulity that it actually happened. The verdict of the referendum is so desperately important to this country that it should be put on hold and the conduct of those involved in the campaign, (especially by those receiving government funding) should be the subject to some form of a Public Enquiry, and if it was found that the misinformation swayed voting decisions to a degree larger than the winning margin, the referendum should be re-run. The costs of which should be borne by those found to have lied and they should be barred from public office.

I think that you may have gathered that I'm furious about it......
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on July 05, 2016, 12:08:25 PM
Wales would now vote to REMAIN in the European Union, says new poll.

Wales would vote to Remain by a majority of 53% to 47%, excluding don’t knows, according to research undertaken by YouGov for ITV Wales and Cardiff University.

Welsh voters were split in favour of Leave by 52.5% to 47.5% in last month’s referendum.

Professor Roger Scully, of Cardiff University’s Wales Governance Centre, said: “In short, there is not much overall change.
"But that which has occurred is in the direction of growing support for the idea of the UK remaining in the EU – roughly a six percentage point swing in this direction since the referendum.

More and Poll.............. http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/wales-would-now-vote-remain-11567780# (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/wales-would-now-vote-remain-11567780#)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on July 05, 2016, 12:45:51 PM
Charlotte Chhurch 'slammed' U kipper Nigel Farage in a tweet here are some of the most popular DFM comments about this

"It seems the Welsh are collectively a great deal more intelligent that this fat windbag. She would rather vote for anarchy which is the other side of democracy.

Would she take her kids for an afternoon out at a German or Swedish swimming pool?

Churchy have you donated your millions to the refugees you claim to support? She's thicker than her waistline.

Silly washed-up mare. if you love the place so much, just move there, you`ve got the money even if the talent has long, long gone.

Nigel Farage is a patriot who has done huis country a great service. Church on the other hand... fill in your own description.

Silly little girl. We dont want YOU in Wales. Pack up and ship out.

ya mean little fat girl she has been at the pies again

that's not Charlotte Church, it looks like she's eaten Charlotte church!!! shall i tell you how easy it would be to get her into bed? PIECE OF CAKE!!!

More brains in a cow."

Sometimes I despair at this country and the people in it.  :'(
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 05, 2016, 01:51:32 PM
I've always despaired of the DFM...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 06, 2016, 08:55:29 AM
Ultimately, the vote to leave the EU occurred because attempts to reform the EU (notably led by the UK) failed. Cameron went off to Brussels recently to negotiate a package of reforms and came back with pretty much nothing.

As Tony Benn once said..."When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected.".

 Even the head of the liberal group in the EU parliament, former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt, lambasted the European Council, the forum where EU governments decide policy. He said the Council's reaction to Brexit was "we shouldn't change anything, just implement existing European policies". "I find this shocking and irresponsible," he said angrily. There had been warning signs for the EU from previous referendums in Denmark and the Netherlands, he said. "What are you waiting for? When will the Council recognise that this type of EU - you cannot defend it any more. Europe needs to be reformed... European citizens are not against Europe, they're against this Europe."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36712550 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36712550)
https://semipartisansam.com/2016/03/03/tony-benn-and-the-left-wing-case-for-brexit/ (https://semipartisansam.com/2016/03/03/tony-benn-and-the-left-wing-case-for-brexit/)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 06, 2016, 09:04:04 AM
There's no doubt the EU has huge issues and, in fact, I think it's developed far too rapidly. The vote in the UK might ignite an EU-wide impetus towards change, which would be wonderful, were we to remain part of it and benefit from a dramatically restructured institution.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 06, 2016, 09:39:08 AM
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There's no doubt the EU has huge issues and, in fact, I think it's developed far too rapidly. The vote in the UK might ignite an EU-wide impetus towards change, which would be wonderful, were we to remain part of it and benefit from a dramatically restructured institution.
You're sort of missing the point, Ian. I believe the reason the LEAVE vote was successful was purely because successive attempts by various countries to reform the EU have got nowhere. The fact that you believe it will take the UK leaving the EU to bring about any real change only illustrates that very point.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 06, 2016, 10:49:37 AM
Well, I don't think I said 'believe' anywhere at all, merely 'might', which differs not only in meaning but in intent. The Leave vote was successful for several reasons, almost none of which has anything whatsoever to do with previous attempts at reform. Detailed exit polls suggest the vote split on Educational and age grounds, in fact, and detailed reasons given tended to focus on immigration, which Farage in particular played on with that appalling poster.

But New Scientist did an interesting article:

 "By Simon Oxenham

To many, the rise of Donald Trump in the US and the UK’s vote to leave the European Union have come as a shock. It is feared that right-wing movements may now rise across Europe, including Marine Le Pen’s Front National in France. Why is the face of global politics changing so quickly, and could we have predicted this rightwards shift?

Some studies suggest so. Over a period of nearly 150 years, we have seen that every financial crisis was followed by a 10-year surge in support for far right populist parties, as shown by a recent analysis of more than 800 elections by German economists. Interestingly, they did not see the same right-shift reaction in response to recessions or macroeconomic shocks that formed part of the normal cycle of economic rises and falls and weren’t explicitly sparked by a financial crash. The UK is now eight years on since its last financial crisis – although it should be returning to pre-2008 levels of far-right support around about now.
Bad decisions

Public-health researcher Christopher Simms of Dalhousie University in Halifax, Canada, argued last month that when people are anxious, not only do they fail to make good decisions, but they also seem to make particularly bad ones. He cited recent research showing that anxiety suppresses neurons in the pre-frontal cortex region of the brain, which is involved in decision-making.

This may help to explain a lot of what is happening in the world right now. The Global Risks Report 2016 details a worldwide rise in catastrophic events, ranging from involuntary migration to natural disasters. When such crises occur, people look for someone to blame, and often immigration and minorities become an easy scapegoat for a problem that is far less visible in origin – as is the case with financial crises.

Immigration itself has been shown to have an effect on right-wing views – but not in the direction you might expect. The two show a negative correlation: in the places where immigration is the highest, support for right-wing parties is lowest. For example, it has been shown that it is the perception of immigration levels in a local area, rather than the actual change in numbers, that is linked to votes for UKIP.

This effect may be explained by the contact hypothesis – the theory that, in the words of psychologist Thomas Pettigrew at the University of California, Santa Cruz, “all that’s needed for greater understanding between groups is contact”. Pettigrew has authored a meta-analysis of more than 500 studies on this subject.
Emotion and autonomy

Never before in history has so much deception been unmasked so quickly and with so little shame,” says Stephan Lewandowsky, a researcher on misinformation at Bristol University in the UK, in regards to the UK’s referendum on membership of the EU.

Campaigns to leave the EU ultimately depended on stoking fears of migrants, echoing Donald Trump’s campaign in the US. What has made these fear campaigns so effective?

According to the influential behavioural economist Daniel Kahneman of Princeton University, the leave campaigns used arguments that were based on emotion rather than rational analysis – a triumph of System 1 over System 2 thinking, as described in his book Thinking, Fast and Slow.

Another psychological explanation is that the leave campaigns capitalised on a person’s fundamental need for autonomy, says psychologist Paul Redford of the University of the West of England in Bristol, UK. Leave voters typically have less wealth and power, so their vote to leave the EU may have been an attempt to increase their scope for self-determination.
Showing support

Since the referendum result, the National Police Chief’s Council has reported a rise in reports of hate crime in the UK. In the week following the vote, an online reporting site received 331 reports of hate crime, a fivefold increase from the weekly average of 63.

A wealth of psychological research into conformity has shown that this could be a dangerous situation. A widely replicated study in 1955 by Solomon Asch showed that when people were asked to judge whether lines of the same size were really the same length, most people could be led to profess the belief that the lines were actually different lengths. All it took to persuade people was having a group of actors all say that the lines were of different lengths. The study shows how easily people can be pushed to change their views to match those of the people around them.

In the wake of the rise in hate-crime reporting, a viral campaign has sprung up to express opposition to racism. By wearing a safety pin attached to their lapels, some people are hoping to express their support for the people in the UK who are now feeling victimised or under threat. Clinical psychologist Miriam Silver says that showing solidarity in such a way, and connecting with those who are experiencing hostility, are small steps that people can take to support those under threat.

As for media reports of “Bregret” – leave voters who now regret their choice – Kahneman has argued that most won’t regret their decision, because regret is rare. Instead, people find ways to explain what is happening around them that lay the blame with someone else."
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on July 06, 2016, 11:49:42 AM
 &shake&                &shake&

Pound at a new 31-year low against the US dollar.
The pound remained in post-Brexit freefall as it tumbled to a fresh 31-year low against the US dollar amid mounting fears over the impact of the vote to leave the EU.

Sterling slumped below $1.28 at one stage, more than 15% below levels seen on referendum day, while it also dropped against the euro, falling 1% below Tuesday's closing figure to €1.16, its lowest level since 2013.

Concerns over a Brexit hit to the UK's property sector saw housebuilding shares remain deep in the red on the London market, although the FTSE 100 Index lifted 24.3 points to 6570.3
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pound-new-31-year-low-11573937 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pound-new-31-year-low-11573937)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 06, 2016, 03:26:07 PM
I wonder how many people like us, UK born citizens, who having lived and worked in this country all our lives, are now wondering and considering the options of moving abroad.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on July 06, 2016, 06:15:01 PM
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I wonder how many people like us, UK born citizens, who having lived and worked in this country all our lives, are now wondering and considering the options of moving abroad.

I was thinking of it Bosun, (6 months here, 6 months abroad), but that was before....
Now, I expect it will be less easy, less welcoming and MORE costly to contemplate.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 07, 2016, 09:18:15 AM
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&shake&                &shake&

Pound at a new 31-year low against the US dollar.
The pound remained in post-Brexit freefall as it tumbled to a fresh 31-year low against the US dollar amid mounting fears over the impact of the vote to leave the EU.

Sterling slumped below $1.28 at one stage, more than 15% below levels seen on referendum day, while it also dropped against the euro, falling 1% below Tuesday's closing figure to €1.16, its lowest level since 2013.

Concerns over a Brexit hit to the UK's property sector saw housebuilding shares remain deep in the red on the London market, although the FTSE 100 Index lifted 24.3 points to 6570.3
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pound-new-31-year-low-11573937 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pound-new-31-year-low-11573937)
A low Pound is great news for both British Exporters and for British Companies that have significant business interests abroad.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on July 07, 2016, 09:49:48 AM
Hanging is good for people who make ropes, but I don't want to try that either  $good$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 07, 2016, 11:25:12 AM
Nice analogy.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on July 07, 2016, 12:14:53 PM
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&shake&                &shake&
Pound at a new 31-year low against the US dollar.
The pound remained in post-Brexit freefall as it tumbled to a fresh 31-year low against the US dollar amid mounting fears over the impact of the vote to leave the EU.

Sterling slumped below $1.28 at one stage, more than 15% below levels seen on referendum day, while it also dropped against the euro, falling 1% below Tuesday's closing figure to €1.16, its lowest level since 2013.
Concerns over a Brexit hit to the UK's property sector saw housebuilding shares remain deep in the red on the London market, although the FTSE 100 Index lifted 24.3 points to 6570.3
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pound-new-31-year-low-11573937 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pound-new-31-year-low-11573937)
A low Pound is great news for both British Exporters and for British Companies that have significant business interests abroad.

What concerns me, reading into this article is the effect on the City, the business generated there contributes £34m in taxes to the economy, and the importance of the UK in the finance world is now under threat.


Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 07, 2016, 02:51:13 PM
A letter in this week's Private Eye suggests that the UK should now be known as:

   Free United Kingdom (With Independent Trading Status.)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on July 08, 2016, 01:01:25 AM
This sums it up nicely for me.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on July 08, 2016, 08:49:50 AM
What's hilarious is how some people on here are now complaining bitterly about the result, yet only a few weeks ago were saying they would vote to Leave themselves or were saying they wouldn't bother voting.

Is that bandwagon nice and comfortable, boys???  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

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I consider this referendum to be the most important national vote in my life time, and the result will effect generations to come.

Slowly, I am coming to the conclusion that a 'Remain' vote will bolster the advent of a Federal State of Europe and embolden the EU's power to crush member nations sovereignty and I don't like what the additional proposed EU states would bring to the table.

I think that you can guess where my x is going........       

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That is probably why I am still unlikely to vote.
Unless my loathing of Boris Johnson forces the issue...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 08, 2016, 09:23:50 AM
Dave R, in reply to your sanctimonious post, firstly, the country is in political turmoil, mainly because of the lies and deceit told by campaigners that to me, verge on criminality and I am extremely concerned for the future of this country and the young people that will have to pick up the remains of this deception.

Secondly, having considered the referendum to be the most important national vote in my lifetime, I very, very carefully considered the implications and eventually realised that the Leave campaign had could not substantiate it's major arguments and that it's reasoning was based on misconceptions. As facts change, so should the decision, and the credibility of the facts of the leave campaign were, in my view, wholly destroyed. I therefore voted Remain.

I actually rather prefer the bandwagon that I'm on to one of smugness and conceit.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on July 08, 2016, 10:02:15 AM
But Dave, you've just proved my point for me.
I started the the thread off by saying that I expected the politicians to lie and for there to be no impartial information on which to base a sensible voting decision.
It turns out I was spot on.
Then my intense dislike of politicians made me focus on that most clownish of the species, Boris.
So I voted accordingly.

Now, along with every other major Leave figurehead, he has fled the scene after pulling the pin from the grenade.
I'm not often right, but I think I called this whole sorry episode pretty much correct all the way.
Apart from the politicians fleeing the scene, the other common theme I am hearing is that the claims of BOTH campaigns were either misleading or damn lies.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: born2run on July 08, 2016, 10:19:09 AM
I think we're all on the same page here. My view has always been there should have been no referendum. The fact that politically minded people like Bosun and Fester were unsure of what to vote only substantiates that fact.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 08, 2016, 10:46:14 AM
I'm wondering if the Leave leaders can be prosecuted for wilful misconduct in a public office. I think something needs to be done to prevent a repeat of the entire saga.

The news this morning was that our economy - proclaimed as the 5th largest in the world by those very people - has now slipped to 6th, with France moving above us.  Yet another victory for deception and mendacity.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on July 08, 2016, 11:20:28 AM
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I'm wondering if the Leave leaders can be prosecuted for wilful misconduct in a public office. I think something needs to be done to prevent a repeat of the entire saga.

The news this morning was that our economy - proclaimed as the 5th largest in the world by those very people - has now slipped to 6th, with France moving above us.  Yet another victory for deception and mendacity.

Ian, not a single chance of such a prosecution.
Where would they draw the line?  They would have to lock up 95% of all politicians that are still alive, and exhume all the others as far back as 1970, in some grotesque 'Jimmy Savile like' post-mortem witch hunt.
No, call it 'spin', call it deception, politicians have always been economical with the truth.
I'm only surprised that any is surprised! 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 08, 2016, 12:11:06 PM
I suspect this case is different.  They told lies.  Not exaggerated, not omitted some fact but lies - pure and simple. Most politicians are economical with the truth but this was a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 08, 2016, 02:47:40 PM
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Is that a serious question?  _))* _))* _))* They all knew perfectly well it was a lie. They knew that it was almost certainly going to be the votes of the less well informed that swung the election, which is why Farage produced that infamous and widely condemned poster of the immigrants queuing. He used a classic fear tactic, with no evidential basis.

Yes, it was a serious question, out of sheer incredulity that it actually happened. The verdict of the referendum is so desperately important to this country that it should be put on hold and the conduct of those involved in the campaign, (especially by those receiving government funding) should be the subject to some form of a Public Enquiry, and if it was found that the misinformation swayed voting decisions to a degree larger than the winning margin, the referendum should be re-run. The costs of which should be borne by those found to have lied and they should be barred from public office.

I think that you may have gathered that I'm furious about it......

I repeat my call for a Public Enquiry and (as much good as it will do...) I have written in that vein to my MP.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on July 08, 2016, 03:08:04 PM
Who is your MP?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on July 08, 2016, 03:28:22 PM
Ha ha,  they will be hauled before the very scary Commons Select Committee, just like Mike Ashley and Philip Green recently.
This is a place which gets lots of TV and media coverage,  you lie your ass off, and nothing further is ever said on the matter.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 08, 2016, 05:17:15 PM
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Who is your MP?

Guto Bebb MP
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on July 08, 2016, 05:38:53 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/legal-attempt-prevent-brexit-preliminary-hearing-article-50 (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/legal-attempt-prevent-brexit-preliminary-hearing-article-50)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 08, 2016, 11:27:08 PM
A rather brilliant piece by Ian Hislop, who states quite correctly, that having lost a general election doesn't stop the opposition asking questions for five years, and having lost the referendum doesn't stop those opposed questioning the rationale and way forward. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36742691 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36742691)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 12, 2016, 08:12:37 AM
Charlie Hebdo paints a fascinating picture of the situation:



https://charliehebdo.fr/edito/racists-go-home/
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 12, 2016, 10:57:08 AM
Quote

I repeat my call for a Public Enquiry and (as much good as it will do...) I have written in that vein to my MP.

I have recieved a reply today from Guto Bebb MP who states that he has recieved a large amount of correspondence on the Referendum result and agrees that the Leave campaign lied, but states that 'Yes, the Leave campaign lied, but all these lies were highlighted during the campaign. The people opted not to listen. We now have a huge mess to address and we must work to mitigate the damage done'. He makes no mention in his letter of my call for a public enquiry.

Having read his letter, I actually think that as he said, he has had a great deal of correspondence on the matter and I have simply recieved his standard 'photocopy' reply.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on July 18, 2016, 01:31:25 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/greenpeace-bus-nhs-brexit-vote-leave-350-million-repainting-messages-outside-parliament-a7142451.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/greenpeace-bus-nhs-brexit-vote-leave-350-million-repainting-messages-outside-parliament-a7142451.html)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on July 23, 2016, 12:25:27 PM
Some interesting comments in this piece ...... &shake&

What will Brexit mean for Polish 'ghost towns'?

"With close to a million Poles living and working in the UK, and sending back more than a billion euros each year, many in the country were hoping that Britain would vote to remain a member of the EU."

"The Polish government, Mr Wojnarowski predicts, "will not be trading freedom of movement for access to the common market"
"The powers that be will have to listen to the "voice of the ordinary people," whose wives, sons and daughters are working in the UK, he believes."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36854272 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36854272)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on July 27, 2016, 04:38:42 PM
This piece is really worrying...

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.sjulbyirw
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on July 27, 2016, 05:02:02 PM
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This piece is really worrying...

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.sjulbyirw

The scenario's are similar to those in 'Prisoners of Geography' by Tim Marshall. It's not 'really worrying', it's very frightening.......
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on July 27, 2016, 05:05:10 PM
Interesting and scary read, it hits a bit to close to home.     &shake&
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on August 06, 2016, 09:11:38 AM
The news doesn't really get any better, either...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/05/brit_scientist_exclusion_from_eu_funding/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/05/brit_scientist_exclusion_from_eu_funding/)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on August 06, 2016, 11:05:22 AM
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The news doesn't really get any better, either...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/05/brit_scientist_exclusion_from_eu_funding/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/05/brit_scientist_exclusion_from_eu_funding/)

I have read recently, exactly the same situation with our universities, being dropped from EU funded research projects.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on August 06, 2016, 11:07:50 AM
That seems unfair, given that we will be paying in to it for the next 3 years at least?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on August 06, 2016, 11:23:13 AM
I agree. But this is probably the 'punishment' some were anticipating.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on August 06, 2016, 04:58:22 PM
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That seems unfair, given that we will be paying in to it for the next 3 years at least?
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I agree. But this is probably the 'punishment' some were anticipating.

I think it's a case of the individual European research projects, distancing themselves from the UK, in case it jeopardises their EU funding.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on August 07, 2016, 08:05:34 AM
Sad that they see it that way, though.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on August 23, 2016, 06:30:31 PM
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The news doesn't really get any better, either...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/05/brit_scientist_exclusion_from_eu_funding/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/05/brit_scientist_exclusion_from_eu_funding/)

I have read recently, exactly the same situation with our universities, being dropped from EU funded research projects.

This is the article I mentioned above, had it bookmarked and forgot all about it.  ???
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jul/12/uk-scientists-dropped-from-eu-projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jul/12/uk-scientists-dropped-from-eu-projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on August 24, 2016, 08:22:48 AM
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From the BBC News just now.

Drivers could face higher petrol and diesel prices as a result of the vote to leave the EU, retailers suggest.
Brian Madderson, chairman of the Petrol Retailers Association, said that a rise of 2p-3p a litre was on the cards.
He said the plunge in the value of the pound against the dollar would have an immediate impact, as wholesale fuel prices are quoted in dollars.
The rises were likely to be implemented on forecourts next week, he said.

So, nice work everybody!
That simply pushes more cost into the supply chain too, higher prices for everything on the way!
I think you were taken in by Project FEAR...

The reality is that petrol prices have fallen since the Brexit vote:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3718385/Asda-Tesco-Sainsbury-s-Morrisons-cut-petrol-diesel-prices.html (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3718385/Asda-Tesco-Sainsbury-s-Morrisons-cut-petrol-diesel-prices.html)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on August 24, 2016, 08:53:37 AM
That's made quite a splash, doubtless as Asda intended :-) But there are many other factors at work, as you know, Dave. This time of the year always sees a glut of fuel, since many factories and businesses are only now starting to return to full operation while the schools are yet to open, so the school run - which sees a 12-fold increase in traffic during the morning and afternoons on roads locally - hasn't yet started and, of course, the weather's been sufficiently warm not to require the heating on all day, so I'd have been extremely surprised,  even astonished, had petrol prices risen during the July - August period. 

Given a colder November, however, I can see a significant rise coming.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on September 05, 2016, 02:35:06 PM
Immigration: May rejects points-based system for EU nationals.

Although Mrs May supported remaining in the EU, she has said that the Brexit vote must be respected and suggested that curbs on the current free movement of EU citizens into the UK would be a red line in future negotiations with the EU.
But speaking to journalists in China she dismissed Vote Leave's proposal of an Australian-style points system for deciding the number of skilled and unskilled workers who could come into the UK every year from the EU and beyond - with numbers to be determined by MPs.
Rather than giving the government control, such a system would allow anybody into the UK if they met the criteria, she said, adding that curbs on student visas had been a more effective measure to reduce immigration.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on September 05, 2016, 03:38:44 PM
But surely that's nonsense.
If you set the criteria of the points system high enough, you only get the number and quality of people you want to enter?
The points system could be revised after a certain number was reached?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on September 05, 2016, 06:51:52 PM
I may be wrong, but I suspect she's thinking of different criteria...not ones that can easily be assessed by points.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on September 06, 2016, 12:16:46 PM
Brexit: The phoney war.

Returning to the UK from North America is to encounter an air of unreality. Britain has embarked on the biggest constitutional change in nearly 50 years - but you wouldn't guess it.
Informed but incredulous Americans ask "you really had no plan?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37278222 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37278222)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on September 06, 2016, 05:51:30 PM
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Brexit: The phoney war.

Returning to the UK from North America is to encounter an air of unreality. Britain has embarked on the biggest constitutional change in nearly 50 years - but you wouldn't guess it.
Informed but incredulous Americans ask "you really had no plan?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37278222 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-37278222)

Somewhat like thier plans for leaving Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. ....
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on September 14, 2016, 09:39:24 AM
Council tax rises, deeper spending cuts and Wales worse off by £500m A YEAR - think-tank's Welsh Brexit warning.

Wales could lose £500m a year after Brexit – and ministers will face even tougher choices about what to spend their dwindling budget on, a new report has warned.

Research by The Institute for Fiscal Studies said the Welsh Government’s pot could be cut by 3.2% in real terms over the next three years - given forecasts set out in the UK Government’s March 2016 budget.

And the study predicts the largest cuts will come in 2018-19 and 2019 - with local government especially facing a particularly tough time.

Among the IFS’s key findings include: increases to the NHS budget of 2% a year, while protecting funding for councils’ education and social services responsibilities, would lead to “unprotected” areas facing cuts averaging 18% over the next three years.

Full article with many comments below.....http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/council-tax-rises-deeper-spending-11883241 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/council-tax-rises-deeper-spending-11883241)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on September 24, 2016, 08:10:37 AM
Some might find this rather good:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXVVCT4Jcs8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXVVCT4Jcs8)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bosun on November 02, 2016, 09:30:35 PM
This is interesting......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/02/prevent-brexit-or-face-political-fallout-german-economists-warn-eu (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/02/prevent-brexit-or-face-political-fallout-german-economists-warn-eu)

Do I detect panic setting in?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on January 04, 2017, 12:09:41 PM
First Minister Carwyn Jones says Wales needs "full and unfettered access" to the European single market, as he flies to Norway to learn more about its relationship with the EU.
The three-day visit comes as UK ministers prepare the way for Brexit negotiations.
Although not an EU member, Norway pays into the EU budget in return for full access to the European single market.

Failure to maintain full access, free of tariffs and non-tariff barriers to trade post-Brexit could make sustaining and securing investment more difficult."
In November, the first minister told AMs that maintaining access to Europe's single market without extra costs was a more important issue than immigration.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-38496904 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-38496904)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on January 06, 2017, 09:19:46 AM
Interesting how the Bank of England has admitted that its dire forecasts for the economy in the event of a brexit vote were...completely wrong.

"The bank has come under intense criticism for predicting a dramatic slowdown in the UK’s fortunes in the event of a vote for Brexit only for the economy to bounce back strongly and remain one of the best performing in the developed world."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on January 06, 2017, 09:54:10 AM
Yessss... Haldane doesn't have a wonderful track record, having completely missed the 2008 crash, so one should automatically question his sudden 'Damascean conversion' where he's now convinced it wasn't his fault, but rather the banks' for not acting predictably, schools for not teaching sums very well and the entire field of Economics for not having adequate models. 

His outstanding comment for me was when he said "...out of that something good spread. It brought us [John Maynard] Keynes and the birth of modern macro-economics.".  There's no one in the world who understands international macro-economics and as for Keynes, it was his policies on which Thatcher relied heavily when essentially eviscerating communities North of Watford.

And yes; the economy as a whole in the UK appears to be doing well, but I wonder how much of that is because we have the core of the world's banking system here?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SDQ on January 06, 2017, 10:08:50 AM
Erm... we haven't left yet! Maybe everyone is getting a lot of business done before we do?
The only way we'll know for sure is a year or two AFTER we have left.
I suspect the economy could be in a very different place then.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on January 06, 2017, 06:33:56 PM
I agree SDQ, we are still in a state of denial, caused by the fact that nothing has actually happened since Brexit day, but it will!
For example, Jamie Oliver has said that the 6 restaurants he is about to close down, is due to the higher cost of imported ingredients from Italy.
Purely and simply due to the terrible exchange rate caused by Brexit.

In a similar vein, petrol prices are creeping up, primarily because oil is priced in dollars, and the sterling v dollar exchange rate has been damaged by Brexit uncertainty.

I think the real effects will be felt in terms of inflation and non availability of goods which were provided by migrant workers, when the supply of those workers is vastly reduced.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on February 02, 2017, 03:43:50 PM
Government sets out Brexit Plan


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38836906 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38836906)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on February 10, 2017, 10:55:23 AM
"Technology giant Apple is "very optimistic" about the UK's future post-Brexit, its boss has told the prime minister. Apple's chief executive Tim Cook met Theresa May at Downing Street and said he thought the UK would be "just fine"' outside the European Union.The company plans to build a new UK headquarters in London."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38920860 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38920860)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on February 18, 2017, 02:30:26 PM
Roses are a Red,
Violets are Blue,
Both will cost treble
When we leave the EU
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on February 18, 2017, 07:37:08 PM
We might move back to a Feudal society. In a democracy it's your vote that counts; in feudalism, it's your Count that votes.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on March 24, 2017, 01:48:10 PM
Deutsche Bank has committed to moving to a new office in London, at a time when banks are assessing their place in the capital ahead of Brexit.
Germany's biggest lender is in exclusive talks for a 25-year lease on a new building.
Garth Ritchie, UK chief executive of Deutsche, told staff the move "underlines the bank's commitment to the City of London".
He said staff would start moving to the new UK headquarters in 2023.
The deal showed "the importance it attaches to being an employer of choice in the capital", Mr Ritchie said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39378521 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39378521)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on April 07, 2017, 02:17:27 PM
Germany's "Mittelstand" of small and medium-sized firms (SMEs) could lose billions of euros if the UK is shut out of the single market, an industry representative has warned.

"Germany exported goods worth 89bn euros to the UK alone in 2015, almost half of it was exported by 150,000 German SMEs," he said, adding that many more companies traded indirectly with the British market, as well as relying on UK research and development.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39522265 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39522265)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on May 15, 2017, 12:06:50 PM
Just read this statement, it made me think, that in these austere times..........

Brexit talks
Britain will not stand in the way of closer EU co-operation on defense following Brexit, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has said.
Mr Johnson was speaking as he arrived for a summit in Brussels .........where foreign ministers are due to discuss plans for a new  (Very expensive and probably unnecessary )  HQ in the Belgian capital for EU military training missions overseas.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 23, 2019, 05:50:29 PM
More than 1,000,000 marched today in London demanding article 50 be revoked. The lady who set up the petition, which has now attracted 4.5m votes, has gone to Cyprus because she's been receiving telephoned death threats.  What a nice bunch the hard line brexiters are.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 23, 2019, 06:17:58 PM
If article 50 is revoked then what's there to stop the Brexiters from having a similar march and petition.    Let's make it the best of 3?

It's the fault of dozy Dave from the Tories for this mess as he should have tried negotiating from within the EU before he put the referendum to the people

It's not a good advert for democracy if the vote of the people is over turned, what next?   If the Tories win the next election will Corbyn and co  start a petition and demand another vote from the people?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 24, 2019, 08:22:17 AM
I suppose it depends on how you define 'democracy'.  What always seems to be ignored is that only a minority of voters voted to leave. The majority - a large majority at that - either voted to remain or didn't vote. I don't view that as a democratic decision.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 24, 2019, 08:46:30 AM
The person who has pushed for Brexit and who chairs the party within a party  - the ERG - is Jacob RFess-Mogg.  This transcript from a recent interview should give everyone pause for thought:

Ress-Mogg was pressed about when we would see any benefits of Brexit:

    Rees-Mogg: “We will know at some point, of course we will. But it’s a question of timescale.”

    Guru-Murthy: “So how long have you got?”

    Rees-Mogg: “We won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time, we really won’t.”

    Guru-Murthy: “Of course not, but I mean we’ll have an indication. We’ll know if there’s been chaos, we’ll know if there have been job losses.”

    Rees-Mogg: “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.”
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 24, 2019, 09:07:36 AM
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I suppose it depends on how you define 'democracy'.  What always seems to be ignored is that only a minority of voters voted to leave. The majority - a large majority at that - either voted to remain or didn't vote. I don't view that as a democratic decision.

You could use the same argument against the last General Election or any General Election for that matter, that's only statistics.    The voting system in the UK, rightly or wrongly is the first past the post is the winner so if anyone changes it now then they should be aware of any future consequences
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 24, 2019, 10:54:27 AM
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I suppose it depends on how you define 'democracy'.  What always seems to be ignored is that only a minority of voters voted to leave. The majority - a large majority at that - either voted to remain or didn't vote. I don't view that as a democratic decision.

You could use the same argument against the last General Election or any General Election for that matter, that's only statistics.    The voting system in the UK, rightly or wrongly is the first past the post is the winner so if anyone changes it now then they should be aware of any future consequences

I don't agree it's 'only statistics'. It is a proven fact.  But when you say "The voting system in the UK... is the first past the post is the winner" that's simply not true. It may be true for general election, but it certainly isn't true for WA elections, or Scottish Parliament elections.  They both use a form of PR.

But the main point is that we do not govern by plebiscite. Our system of National government is through democratically elected MPs, and most of the MPs - except the extremely wealthy ones - see the value of remaining in the EU.

Voting in the Brexit referendum was dominated by older voters, while the young (who overwhelmingly voted to remain) will have to live with the consequences. The European Union has 502 million citizens. Just 109,964 Irish votes prevented them getting a better functioning, more democratically accountable EU. That was the winning margin for the “no” vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum. National referendums on EU questions are fundamentally undemocratic by allowing tiny minorities to dictate to the majority.

Meanwhile, the majority of voters (not statistics, merely fact) will have to live with the consequences of the minority believing the litany of lies and misinformation spread by the Leave brigade.  If it weren't so serious it would make a great basis for a sitcom.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 24, 2019, 12:03:08 PM
The Brexit referendum was a straight forward vote for either leaving the EU or remaining in the EU.       Everyone eligible to vote had a chance to express their choice on the issue, so anyone who did not bother to vote for whatever reason shouldn't be complaining about the result now.
The number of people who didn't vote is irrelevant as they had the opportunity to vote but wasted it.       What is important is the number of votes cast by either side and if the outcome is unacceptable to some then why bother with the referendum in the first course

There were lies and misinformation on both sides but that is nothing new, the political parties are doing it day in day out and we should be aware of it by now.
It's a right mess and unfortunately we haven't got a leader in either of the two main parties that is capable of sorting this out
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 24, 2019, 01:08:41 PM
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What is important is the number of votes cast by either side and if the outcome is unacceptable to some then why bother with the referendum in the first course

We ought not to have had the referendum. I agree with that and Cameron only had it because he was terrified Farage might herald a lot of Tory MPs leaving to join UKIP.

But I've never considered the simplistic notion that it's only the number of votes that counts to be valid; where major decisions of the magnitude of this are taken then it has to be demonstrably the will of the majority of the electorate, not simply those who voted. Otherwise, you're allowing a minority to dictate the future for the majority, and there's no way that can be described as democratic.

There's also the feedback which suggested a lot who voted leave did so because they disliked Cameron - a worrying motive in itself, but certainly not a justifiable foundation for the outcome.

In terms of lies, whom should we hold responsible when the NHS collapses through lack of funds? Because the Leave campaign convinced a lot that  £350m was what it cost per month to stay in the EU - the biggest lie of all.

Politicians don't all lie; I know some (Tory, in fact) personally and they're very open and honest.  They're just not the ones who make the headlines.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 24, 2019, 03:00:23 PM
What ever happened to the principle of changing one’s mind?
We have some, although not a lot, more information than we had 3 years ago.  So why not vote again?
If I saw a car in a showroom 3 years ago and indicated that I wanted to buy it, I wouldn’t be forced to buy it three years later if I subsequently discovered it was crap?
The Brexiteers are terrified of a second referendum, and get very unpleasant about the idea, as the used car salesman would be.
But why should they be?   Surely if Brexit is a good idea then even more folk will turn out and vote for it.
I don’t care if Leave is the outcome of a 2nd referendum, I just think that the people deserve to say whether they still think what they thought 3 years ago.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Robbie G on March 24, 2019, 04:42:09 PM
 Ian And Fester you both seem to be very selective on your second votes ,everyone was given the choice to vote .that you disagree with the result is understandable ,but you seem to suggest that every election should be rerun if you disagree with the result . All the M .Ps agreed to honour the result by a large majority they should respect the voters wishes that's what democracy is , I have not heard any mention of a second referendum for the W.A. that was carried by the slimmest of margins ,but parliament agreed to honour the electorate,  democracy prevailed.   
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 24, 2019, 05:21:04 PM
But Robbie, there is a chance to change my mind every four years or so in a general election, if I decide I don’t like the outcome.
Brexit will be getting on for four years soon.
Why should we be trapped into a crap situation if new facts come to light?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 25, 2019, 07:56:58 AM
Agreed. Fester's summed it up perfectly.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: mull on March 25, 2019, 09:34:59 AM
Well said Fester.
It has taken nearly 3 years to negotiate our way out of the EU. Without sucess during which a lot of information has comev to light that was unknown by most people in 2016,especially the conduct of Mr Banks and co.
We get a chance to vote in General Election every few years.
Why not let people have another vote now all the extra information is out in the open. Time moves on and and does not stand still and peoples views change over time.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 25, 2019, 03:35:54 PM
It's a right mess all right and Teresa May was saying that they will have a third vote on her deal this week. the same deal that has been soundly beaten twice already.
Now that the DUP has said that they may not support her, the deal seems to be off the table.       This Brexit thing should not be about Party politics and they should consider what is best for the UK

Immigration may have been a large factor in the Brexit vote but immigrants have been coming over the English Channel in small boats recently but what is the Government doing to stop them coming over.   They process them and then release them into the community with conditions attached that they are unlikely to keep to.     It won't improve even if Brexit goes ahead they will still be doing the same thing again
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Robbie G on March 25, 2019, 04:36:59 PM
Fester  you miss the point the referendum was a democratic vote all the M. Ps. had a free vote in parliament and they decided to accept the result that's democracy .
The problem as I see it is the establishment never though they would lose the debate or the vote ,to have another vote because people fore what ever reason didn't take the option the first time is undemocratic to say the least , you cannot have a rerun unless you have reason of malpractice or corruption etc .
You can hope that some political party will have a policy in their manifesto to reapply for membership .   
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 25, 2019, 06:59:13 PM
I didn’t miss your point Robbie, I was making a different one, because if we could have made a non damaging clean break from the EU it would have been over and done by now.
But it couldn’t be done, so the result is now old and stale.
What’s wrong with asking the population if they STILL feel the same?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Robbie G on March 25, 2019, 07:16:47 PM
Fester you can vote again as I suggest in my last post when there is another general election , as for a clean break it was estimated that it would take at least 2years of negotiations to come to some form of agreement , however I can appreciate your point that it has been a long drawn out fiasco , the E.U. where in no mood to let us leave without their pound of flesh . 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 25, 2019, 08:02:03 PM
I'm not sure the EU are the villains of this piece. Britain is currently the laughing stock of Europe; the in-fighting in all the main political parties would be comical if it weren't tragic and the sheer deceit used by the leave campaigners, with absolutely no facts to back them up, was a travesty of Democracy.

We don't govern by plebiscite.  The Referendum was simply advisory and in the past three years a lot has changed.  The real democratic course now would be to return to the people and ask them if this is what they want, now a lot more is known about the consequences.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 25, 2019, 11:45:22 PM
I would ask the Average person what they now think, but I can’t because the average person is ... Chinese!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Robbie G on March 26, 2019, 02:53:45 PM
IAN you quote that the referendum was simply  advisory . on that basis we became members of the E. U. on the result of a referendum ( a trade pact not a political union) therefore we should have no reason to accept that result , on the deceit of the leavers it is a mater of opinion who where the most deceitful the establishment and the B.B.C. with their biased comments  have not been anything but deceitful ,things change over a period of time as you say you cannot have another referendum on that basis , you are of the opinion that it will be a catastrophe if and when we leave that is all conjecture ,I would rather be ruled by our politicians however inept they appear to be than some unelected official from the E.U.     
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 26, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
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IAN you quote that the referendum was simply  advisory . on that basis we became members of the E. U. on the result of a referendum

No;  we became members because the MPs agreed it was the best course of action.

Quote
on the deceit of the leavers it is a mater of opinion who where the most deceitful the establishment and the B.B.C. with their biased comments  have not been anything but deceitful

Well, I know for certain that the Leaver bus was emblazoned with a direct lie. The Leave campaign has also just been fined £40k for misleading in 200K spam emails, and deleting the evidence in the hope they wouldn't be found out. And last month Brexiter Arron Banks’ insurance biz Eldon was fined £120k for dodging direct marketing rules. So not exactly a clean track record.

Quote
you are of the opinion that it will be a catastrophe if and when we leave that is all conjecture ,I would rather be ruled by our politicians however inept they appear to be than some unelected official from the E.U.     

Well, here's the thing.  You're not "ruled by some unelected official from the E.U."  Nothing can become EU law unless we agree to it. So by saying you prefer our MPs over unelected officials reveals a somewhat distorted version of reality.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 26, 2019, 09:08:42 PM
I see these accusations about the BBC being biased all over the Internet.
I view that as being one of the most paranoid and disappointing opinions I’ve ever heard.
The lengths that the Beeb go to to be impartial are extreme.
They are regulated to death....
Where are these examples of bias?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 26, 2019, 09:09:23 PM
.... and without the BBC there would be no Match of the Day.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on March 27, 2019, 12:40:22 PM
Revoke Article 50 petition - What the Government is telling Brexit protesters who signed it
A record-breaking 5.8million people logged-on and signed.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/revoke-article-50-petition-what-16034618 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/revoke-article-50-petition-what-16034618)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 27, 2019, 07:26:36 PM
So..... Jacob Rees Mogg can change his mind and change his vote on the Brexit situation.
But, the rest of the U.K. population can’t? 
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Robbie G on March 27, 2019, 07:27:46 PM
Ian there was a referendum on 5th June 1975 asking if we should continue to be members of the EEU which was duly passed by parliament , there fore I see no reason why the result of the last referendum should not stand as all MPs pledged to honour the result .
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 27, 2019, 08:21:24 PM
Things change. That's why we have elections every few years but what I find curious is the way those who voted Leave seem utterly terrified about a second referendum. Wonder why that is?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on March 27, 2019, 10:10:06 PM
So, all eight of the Parliament votes were defeated.
Hence there is no majority for any of the ways out of the mess they are in.
Just when I thought it couldn’t get any more absurd!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on March 27, 2019, 10:37:30 PM
I voted to Remain in the EU and was surprised to see that Brexit had won the referendum, however as  the majority of the people who voted, voted for Brexit then Parliament should abide by the result.
The mess that we are in at the moment could have been avoided if Cameron had thought it all through before making the announcement about a referendum
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on March 28, 2019, 08:44:47 AM
It's little consolation that Cameron will go down in history as one of the worst PMs the UK has ever had.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bri Roberts on April 08, 2019, 04:51:50 PM
 $donald$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2019, 05:29:03 PM
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Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2019, 05:29:21 PM
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Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2019, 05:29:39 PM
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Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2019, 05:30:09 PM
An Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman walk into a bar.
The Englishman wanted to go so they all had to leave.


“People were confused by the arguments either way – they interviewed people the next day on the news, one bloke was like ‘I voted leave but I didn’t really want to leave Europe’ – there were two options on the form, how did you screw that up? Another bloke said ‘I just voted Leave to get the Muslims out’ – he’s in for a shock when he finds out Muslims don’t come from Luxembourg.”


VOTERS: we want to give a boat a ridiculous name
UK: no
VOTERS: we want to break up the EU and trash the world economy
UK: fine


Have we tried unplugging 2016 waiting ten seconds and plugging it back in?


“‘In and out’, it’s a very hard decision. It’s like the other day, my flatmate was making me a peppermint tea, and he said ‘would you like bag leaving in, or taken out?’ If you leave the bag in, on the whole the cup of tea itself will get stronger, and it might appear that the bag is getting weaker, but it’s now part of a stronger cup of tea. Whereas if you take the bag out, the tea’s now quite weak, but the bag itself goes directly in the bin.”


How did the Brexit chicken cross the road?
"I never said there was a road. Or a chicken".


I know it's not very "politically correct" to say it out loud but in the wasteland of ruined Britain I am going to hunt and eat old people


“Michael Gove’s right, we don’t need expert analysis. Especially now, they’re all saying we’re screwed.”
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on April 11, 2019, 10:10:26 AM
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An Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman walk into a bar.
The Englishman wanted to go so they all had to leave.
Don’t forget the Welshman - he voted to leave, the result in Wales was 52.5% in favour of leaving. The result in Aberconwy was 54% in favour of leaving, a majority of over 5,200 people.

If you believe in democracy, then you accept the result of a democratic vote.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on April 11, 2019, 01:00:26 PM
But it wasn't a democratic vote, in that the majority of eligible voters didn't vote to leave.

And I have to wonder why the Leave campaign people are so terrified of another referendum. Don't they believe in democracy?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on April 24, 2019, 12:15:41 PM
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But it wasn't a democratic vote, in that the majority of eligible voters didn't vote to leave.

And I have to wonder why the Leave campaign people are so terrified of another referendum. Don't they believe in democracy?
That’s a really weak argument and not one I suspect you would have used in the event of a Remain victory by the same amount?  ))*

I was interested to see the Daily Post’s recent Poll on voting intentions in the event of a European Election. 3,800 people have voted:

Brexit Party 45%
Liberal Democrats 17%
Change UK 8%
Plaid Cymru 7%
Labour 7%
UKIP 5%
Conservatives 1%

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/asked-3800-people-who-theyd-16154673 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/asked-3800-people-who-theyd-16154673)

I’ve seen the comment made more than a few times lately that, if you believe in democracy then it will be necessary to vote for the Brexit Party, regardless of your normal political views.

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on April 24, 2019, 02:26:03 PM
 $donald$

If you believe in democracy then we need another referendum.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 17, 2019, 09:36:45 AM
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Quote
If you believe in democracy then we need another referendum.
...and if someone doesn’t like the result of that one, we just have another and another and another?

That's an outmoded argument and you know it :-) The reason we need another referendum is that the facts - such as they were - were not given to the voters prior to the vote, massive lies were told by the Leave campaign (remember the £350m claim?), the Vote Leave organisers have already be fined thousands over misrepresentation and breaking electoral law and we now have a much clearer idea of what Leaving would mean.

And here's the thing: Why are leavers so terrified of another vote? Doesn't seem rational, given they're so sure they'd win...

Quote
I see every poll has the Brexit Party leading by a significant majority - perhaps they’re just asking the wrong people though, Ian?

If I were a betting man I'd expect the only party with 'brexit' in its name to win, if only on the basis of statistical probability. The remain parties - just about all the others - will inevitably split the vote.

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 27, 2019, 06:42:09 AM
Er...I think you’ve edited my post rather than replying to it, Ian?  ))*
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2019, 06:55:41 AM
Yikes!  Dave - only just seen this.  I'm so sorry.   ))*  $booboo$ And here was I about to observe that not only did the Brexit party fall far short of the predicted voting percentages but that their overall vote was around 33% whereas the percentage total votes for the other parties was around 67% - and that genuinely surprised me.

A single issue party with no manifesto other than leaving the EU would - I'd have imagined - scored significantly higher.

However we look at it, though, it's incredibly bad news for the Tories but far, far worse for Labour.  Well done the Lib Dems and the Greens.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 27, 2019, 10:15:50 AM
Really? If you count together all the parties who are pledged to deliver Brexit as part of their manifesto (Brexit, UKIP, Conservatives, Labour), that gives you about 57% of votes cast.

Unless you are about to say that a Remainer would vote for a party pledged to deliver Brexit?  $yes$
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2019, 12:49:07 PM
The other parties are split, as you will know. A single issue party with no manifesto should have scooped the board - but it only managed around 33% of the votes. However, the chance of a second referendum is now looking increasingly likely, so I imagine that will sort the issue once and for all.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2019, 03:15:31 PM
The picture is becoming a little clearer:

Pro-remain 40.4% (LD, Green, SNP, Change, Plaid)
Pro-Brexit 34.9% (Brexit and UKIP)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Blongb on May 27, 2019, 03:45:44 PM
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The picture is becoming a little clearer:

Pro-remain 40.4% (LD, Green, SNP, Change, Plaid)
Pro-Brexit 34.9% (Brexit and UKIP)

What about the % who didn't bother to vote because we're leaving Europe, if they were factored into the equation. it would paint a far more realistic picture on what the majority of the people want.  $uk
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
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The picture is becoming a little clearer:

Pro-remain 40.4% (LD, Green, SNP, Change, Plaid)
Pro-Brexit 34.9% (Brexit and UKIP)

What about the % who didn't bother to vote because we're leaving Europe, if they were factored into the equation. it would paint a far more realistic picture on what the majority of the people want.  $uk

Well, that's the problem with any vote. Unless we had compulsory voting, as the Aussies do, then it's impossible to say anything with precision, other than note the final figures.  But I can't remember a time when both the so-called main parties have been in such a mess.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on May 27, 2019, 10:49:09 PM
I’m glad you’ve now ignored the Labour and Conservative parties votes, because they have a lot of traditional voters who will stick with them, despite their stance on Brexit being impossible to understand.
So yes, there is a slight remain majority in the final analysis.
But I can’t get away from the fact that only a third of eligible people voted in what was essentially a pseudo referendum... and only a third of them voted for a strident Leave or Remain party.
So in reality only one in 9 of the U.K. population declared a firm view either way!

Talk about a small minority of folk making a LOT of noise!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2019, 08:58:43 AM
More figures:

The Brexit Party - 5,248,533
UKIP -                      554,463

Total - 5,802,996


Lib Dems -  3,367,284
Greens    -  2,023,380
SNP -             594,553
Plaid Cymru - 163,928
Change UK  - 571,846

Total - 6,720,991
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2019, 09:04:49 AM
Yes; the low voting figures are worrying. Short of bringing in the Aussie model and making it compulsory, I'm not sure how that can be changed.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2019, 10:14:45 AM
I must admit that I'm one of those people who didn't vote in the election.    For the first time ever, I didn't know who to vote for and after 3 years this Brexit business should have been sorted out by now.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: norman08 on May 28, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
I had a message just before the polling station closed and just over 550 voters had bothered out of about 2.000 + able to vote. I think people are so fed up of the lot of them.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2019, 11:11:23 AM
Overall the turnout was 36%. Ironic, really, given that so many complained about the EU's apparent lack of democracy...
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: BrianP on May 28, 2019, 02:11:21 PM
Never mind making voting compulsory, what about making it compulsory for politicians to tell the truth.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2019, 02:42:00 PM
Well, you have to start with what's possible...   _))*
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2019, 02:43:17 PM
Some more facts:

Brexit Party (UKIP version 2)     + 29 seats
UKIP (version 1) lost                  - 24 seats

So, Brexit won 5 new seats: somewhere from the pool of Labour who lost 10 seats and Conservatives who lost 15. Overall, there's little doubt; the country favours a second referendum.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: DaveR on May 28, 2019, 02:53:49 PM
You seem a bit perturbed, Ian, that a significant proportion of the electorate are sick of an arrogant, self serving political elite in this country and have had the temerity to vote for something else.

Who did you vote for, btw, don’t think you said? I voted for the Brexit Party.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2019, 03:47:02 PM
I voted Plaid Cymru. They're one of the Remain parties. I suspect had Change UK made its name Remain they might have done better. Used to vote Labour, but JC worries me.

Quote
You seem a bit perturbed, Ian, that a significant proportion of the electorate are sick of an arrogant, self serving political elite in this country and have had the temerity to vote for something else.

Interesting. You know, Dave, "arrogant, self serving and elite" describes the ex-Tory, privately-schooled, Enoch Powell admirer Nigel Farage, rather well. 

Leave voters are very energetic, terrified of a second referendum and determined in every way possible to achieve their aim. With only a single party openly representing nothing but Brexit, I've already stated that I expected them to sweep the board.  The only surprise was that they didn't do a lot better, frankly.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 29, 2019, 12:47:32 PM
It's one heck of a mess and these matters should have been sorted out in the EU long before Cameron suggested a referendum for the UK.
At the moment both Tory and Labour are just looking after their own interests instead of doing what's best for the UK as a whole.
Teresa May, a remain voter, said that she was carrying out the will of the people to leave the EU  and Jeremy Corbyn also said that the will of the voters should be carried out.
Now in the papers today it said that Corbyn would be seeking a 2nd referendum despite many labour controlled areas voting to leave.
Neither of the two main parties are doing themselves any favours by their behaviour.   It would be a joke if the matter wasn't so serious
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 29, 2019, 02:00:33 PM
We also voted Brexit, but it seems if you tell people you voted Brexit a lot of them don't seem to like it!
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 29, 2019, 03:26:13 PM
I voted remain but accept that the majority voted for Brexit so that is what the government should deliver.    To suggest a second referendum just makes a mockery of the whole thing
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 29, 2019, 03:58:12 PM
There  is no doubt that what was written on the side of that red double decker bus certainly influenced the way many voters voted.

After the impending Boris court case has been concluded, I can already see a stronger case for a second referendum looming on the grounds of another mis-selling scandal.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 29, 2019, 05:55:14 PM
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I voted remain but accept that the majority voted for Brexit so that is what the government should deliver.    To suggest a second referendum just makes a mockery of the whole thing

But we don't run the country through plebiscite;  it's done through representational democracy. Bri is spot on: it's currently tantamount to a mis-selling scandal.  Another referendum is the only realistic option for several reasons:

1. Misinformation on an industrial scale influenced the first one.
2. A second one would put the matter to bed - for a decent while, at any rate.
3. This is the important one, IMV: since the original referendum 2.1m more people have become eligible to vote. Denying the current 18-21 year olds their opportunity to take part in a final say is little short of criminal.

If it's such an obvious course of action, then why is Leave so terrified of a second referendum?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: mull on May 29, 2019, 06:08:28 PM
Why are the leavers so scared of another vote ?

Having said that. The country should not be run this way. Things do not stand still , time moves on, views change. There has been over 3 years trying to disentangle over 40 years of EU membership and it has not been possible.

Have another vote with the extra knowledge we all have, what have we got to lose ?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on May 29, 2019, 10:51:41 PM
I actually don’t think there is a mechanism to end up at a second referendum.  I honestly can’t see a pathway to it.
I don’t understand why the Brexiteers are so antagonistic to anyone suggesting a 2nd vote though, because they seem to be convinced that they won by a mile.
If so, why fear a second vote?   Wouldn’t that shut us re MOANERS up for good?
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Hugo on May 29, 2019, 11:01:27 PM
I saw on the news that Marcus Ball is taking out a private prosecution against Boris for telling lies during the Brexit Referendum.   Isn't that the practice for most MP's?
     
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 30, 2019, 08:38:34 AM
Mmmm...MPs' comments are usually reasonably bland and say almost nothing of substance, which is why they can't be called out for outright lying. Johnson (I refuse to call him 'Boris';  he's not a pal) actually lied in some of his many off-the-cuff comments he made. And the Vote Leave campaign organisers have already been fined substantially for breaches of electoral law, but the specific lies told were:

    We send £350m a week to Brussels
    We can’t stop Turkey joining
    We can’t stop a European army
    We are still liable to pay eurozone bailouts
    The UK rebate can be changed against our will
    Our VAT exemptions will be ended
    Cameron’s deal was not legally binding
    EU law is adopted by unelected bureaucrats
    We can’t control our borders in the EU
    Criminals arriving in Germany can get EU passports and come over here
    Health tourism costs us billions
    EU needs UK trade more than vice versa
    Past referendum results have been ignored
    Auditors still refuse to sign off the accounts
    CAP adds £400 to British food bills
    British steel suffers because of the EU
    Irish border will be unaffected by Brexit
    UK can’t deport EU criminals
    UK is always outvoted
    60-70% of laws come from EU
    Renationalisation of industries is impossible
    We get no veto on future treaty change or integration
    The budget ceiling can increase without our consent
 


Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on May 31, 2019, 06:08:36 PM
Jacob Rees-Mogg is complaining about Boris Johnson being taken to court for lying during the Referendum campaign.

“It is trying to use the courts to achieve a political end which, I think, is neither right or proper. "

Of course when his father took the government to court to try to block the Maastricht Treaty, a course of action to which Rees-Mogg happily subscribed,  that was an entirely different thing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/rees-moggs-maastricht-plea-rejected-legal-challenge-may-continue-despite-defeat-in-high-court-1488238.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/rees-moggs-maastricht-plea-rejected-legal-challenge-may-continue-despite-defeat-in-high-court-1488238.html)

Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Fester on June 02, 2019, 12:12:18 AM
I met a very pleasant elderly Belgian couple in Spain this week, and they asked what the heck Brexit was all about.   They thought that Britain had basically imploded.   It was hard to disagree.
I summarised Brexit thus, in my pidgin English.....

About 35% of Brits turned out to vote in a referendum.  Lots of old people voted Brexit, when asked why, few of them really knew why, other than they liked Britain better 50 years ago.
Lots of young people apparently wanted to stay in Europe,  but they were too lazy to vote.
So we are where we are.
Embarrassing really, on many levels.
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: Ian on June 06, 2019, 05:54:14 PM
This is worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HDFegpX5gI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HDFegpX5gI)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on July 29, 2019, 10:50:58 AM
The chief executive of Vauxhall-owner PSA says it could move all production from its Ellesmere Port factory if Brexit makes it unprofitable.

Carlos Tavares told the Financial Times that the car maker has alternatives to the plant which it could use.

The move would probably lead to the closure of the site, the FT said, threatening 1,000 jobs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49146645 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49146645)
Title: Re: European Union Vote
Post by: SteveH on September 12, 2019, 10:08:09 AM
Operation Yellowhammer: Government's Brexit forecast shows shocking impact no-deal could have on UK
The 'worst case' scenario document has been released following a vote by MPs
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/operation-yellowhammer-governments-brexit-forecast-16904817 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/operation-yellowhammer-governments-brexit-forecast-16904817)

Shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer said the Yellowhammer document confirms there are "severe risks" if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49671566 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49671566)