Three Towns Forum
Members' Lounge => Hobbies and Interests => Topic started by: Pendragon on April 12, 2011, 12:32:39 am
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I've been reading loads of old books lately and found some really interesting references to the local area. Some are ancient like Braich Y Dinas in Penmaenmawr or in the times of Llewelyn and Conwy Castle or more recent things like old pubs in Conwy and the building of the Conwy tunnel. So I'll put all the snippets in here.
Unable to cross the river Conwy, Henry III and his army were forced to make camp at Deganwy Castle which lay in ruins having been destroyed by Henry's enemy Edward. A courtier describes sleeping in houses of canvas and having no winter clothes. He goes on to say they are employed in "Watchings. Fastings, and Praying"
This is an extract taken from a letter written by a young courtier on September 24th 1245.
There is a small arm of the sea which ebbs and flows under the aforesaid castle, and forming of a sort of harbour, into which during our stay here, ships have often come from Ireland and from Chester bringing provisions. This arm of the sea lies between us and Snowdon where the Welsh quarter themselves and is at high tide about a crossbow shot wide. On the Monday next before Michaelmas in the afternoon, a ship from Ireland bringing provisions to us for sale was coming up towards the entrance to the harbour, but, being incautiously steered, as the sea receded it remained aground under our aforesaid Castle (Deganwy) but on the opposite bank towards the Welsh who immediately rushed down and made an attack on it as it lay on the dry ground. We therefore seeing this preceding from the bank on this side we sent 300 Welshmen our Borderer's from Cheshire and Shropshire across the water in boats together with some crossbow men to defend the said ship, on seeing which the Welshmen hurriedly retreated to their accustomed and well known hiding places in the rocks and in the woods. Our Knights attended by their followers pursued them for a distance of two leagues and although they were on foot (for they had not bought their horses across the water with them) they wounded and slew many of the Welsh.
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the Welshmen hurriedly retreated to their accustomed and well known hiding places in the rocks and in the woods
In 1245, of course, Snowdonia and the Carneddau were heavily forested, so there would have been plenty of cover for the hiders.
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the Welshmen hurriedly retreated to their accustomed and well known hiding places in the rocks and in the woods
In 1245, of course, Snowdonia and the Carneddau were heavily forested, so there would have been plenty of cover for the hiders.
Extremely apt at Guerrilla Warfare were the Welsh.
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Plas Isa, Twthill and Marine Walk
Plas Isa was a large Mansion on the site of the Library. Rev Hugh Williams occupied the house in 1805. He was a Magistrate and very decrepit however "he was held in such respect that he was carried seated in a chair, to quell any disturbance in the town"
Up until the early 19th century the stocks were situated just outside Plas Isa. When the stocks were to be used there was a custom that whoever had been married last would have to run up to Pen Twthill and "cry stocks" the proceedings were watched over by a "Corporation Official with a large staff in his hand to see that the culprits were not molested"
Pen Twthill was a public highway which began at Town Ditch through the grounds of Bodlondeb and lead out on the Morfa Drive.(probably the same path that runs through it today.)
Bodlondeb was owned by Mr Albert Wood and in 1876 an agreement was made with the then Surveyor of Highways to close the Pen Twthill highway in exchange Mr Wood was to build an alternative route skirting Bodlondeb. That new highway is the Marine Walk.
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Bodlondeb and the Council
The population of the Borough had increased from 7,964 in 1921 to 10,500 by 1936.
The following was written for the Official Opening of the New Civic Center (Bodlondeb) booklet in July 1937.
The official opening was performed by the Right Hon David Lloyd George.
During the last few years this rate of progress has not only been maintained but has increased to such an extent that the Council realised that with the necessary additions to the staff more adequate office accommodation must be provided for the efficient administration of the affairs of the Borough. Two years ago a Committee was set up for this purpose and various schemes were prepared and examined, but owing to the difficulties that wee encountered, such as suitable site, etc these were not proceeded with.
During the early part of 1936 the Trustees of the late Mr Albert Wood decided to dispose of the Bodlondeb estate.
A special Committee of the Council consisting of the Mayor Alderman Arthur T S Smith, JP. Councillor R D Parry (Chairman of the Councils Estate and Harbour Committee) the Town Clerk Mr Arthur L Ralphes and the Borough Engineer Mr E O Foulks were appointed to negotiate for the purchase. Unfortunately the Committee were unsuccessful in their negotiations with the trustees and the only course left to the Council was to make an Order under the provisions of the Public Works Facilities act 1930 for the compulsory purchase of the Estate to ensure its preservation as an open space for all time.
After all the requirement of the Act had been carried out the Minister of Health confirmed the Compulsory Purchase Order on the 5th August 1936. An official Arbitrator was appointed to determine the price to be paid for the Estate by the Council.
The fact that the Minister approved of the steps taken by the council is significant when it is borne in mind that no Public Inquiry was directed to be held prior to the confirmation of the order.
It goes on to say what an asset Bodlondeb will be to the Council over the coming years. Judging what you've just read you can see why there are those in Conwy Town that are under the impression that Bodlondeb was basically and very cleverly snaffled by the Council.
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Good stuff! $good$ If the Council hadn't of bought it, of course, the house would probably have been demolished and the entire area would be a housing estate now. So I'm still thinking it was the best outcome for Conwy.
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I was having a look on the web
last night this morning, and came across this diary written by Rev Peris Williams, army chaplain, 1914-16. The letter is held at The University Bangor.
I always find words like these really touching.
Translation: 'Tuesday, Oct 27th This morning after awaking I was uncertain that I would be of any use here to the boys. After coming down I opened the Bible and the first words that my eyes fell upon were these: 'Fear not, for I am with you, I am your God, be not dismayed: I will strengthen, I will support you, I will uphold you with my trusty hand' - Esiah 41.10. After breakfast I went as far as the 2nd RAMC [Royal Army Medical Corps] Hospital Congregational Schoolrooms Abington Avenue, to look for a young man called Robert Evans from Cefnmawr whom the Rev E. K. Jones had written to me about. I was given directions in order to find him by the men at the gates, but having gone to the department where he was, I was told that his health had improved to the extent that he had been allowed to leave and return to his accommodation. I went around the patients, asking them questions and trying to cheer them up; among them were men from Caernarfon, Conwy, Penmaenmawr, Cardiff, Tredegar, Chirk, New Broughton &tc. The poorliest of those I saw was a young man, about 19 years old, who had been brought to the hospital the previous night suffering from pneumonia. He was very ill. Poor fellow. 'Somebody's darling so young & so fair'.
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I'm always intrigued by the inventions of the Victorians below is an advert for an anti-poaching device invented and produced by John Morris, a Welshpool gun-maker. A series of trip wires would set off flares which would enable the land owner to identify the intruder.
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Some of the landowners set up trip wires that fire blank cartridges! Available for under £20.00.
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Some interesting photos of people from Llandudno that I've not seen before:
pic 1 Native Americans in the Cottage Hospital llandudno.
pic 2 The owner of the Camera Obscura Llandudno.
pic 3 William Evans in 1902 delivering the milk with his trusty steed Donkey
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This photograph shows the engineer and manager of the Llandudno Gas Works closing down the valve on the exhausters when the Works finally ceased production, over a century after the original works commenced production. The supervisor of the works is also shown in the photograph. The year is 1955.
The workers in the Gas Mask factory in Llandudno, I have no idea where this was?
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This is a map of Conwy drawn by A Bowdler in 1776 on behalf of Owen Holland of Plas Isa, Conwy.
Look at the difference in the town. Most of the land within the walls is gardens. Berry Street is called Burial Street. Rose Hill Street is called Mill Oate Street and the High Street is named Great Street. Fascinating.
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I've been looking through our local Court Quarter Sessions papers recently. Quarter Sessions were local courts held every 3 months in the local Boroughs. Each Quarter Session had a title:
Epiphany, Easter, Midsummer and Michaelmas sessions.
They were notoriously unfair trials and blatantly bias towards offenders. Quite often the court proceedings were not recorded sufficiently or in any depth and dates, names and offenses were not accurately recorded. Chairmen of these courts were gentlemen and did not require any other qualifications to pass harsh and lengthy sentences at the time. Quarter Sessions were abolished in 1972 in England and Wales and replaced with Crown Courts built specifically for the purpose. Where it says offenders went to prison or were issued with hard labour it seems prisoners were sent to Caernarfon or Beaumaris gaols (jails).
One such case has nothing to do with Conwy or Llandudno to be fair but I thought I'd tell you as it's quite funny. In 1806 A Mary Williams of Deneio (Deneiolen) Bangor was charged with "pretending knowledge of Crafty Powers" with the intent of obtaining by deception £3.10s from Richard Hughes who was a Husbandman (butler). Crafty Powers seems to suggest Mary Williams was pretending she knew Palmistry or Fortune Telling. Unfortunately I can't find out what her sentence was in this instance.
On the 15th August 1853 Catherine Grey assaulted Lydia Mclellan at an Alms house for the poor, owned by Isaiah Davies. The case was heard on the 2nd September and Catherine Grey recieved a fine of 5s and 11s costs or 3 days imprisonment also the sum of 5s to be paid to Mr Davies of Llandudno keeper of the Alms house where the assault took place.
In1869 on Nov 22 Ann (Tanny) Jones was charged with stealing a teapot from Margaret Tosdevine a licensed victualler. The witnesses against Ann Jones were Mary and William Williams. Ellen and William Owen and Elizabeth and John Williams all licensed victuallers in Conwy and the Superintendant of Police John Evans. They all gave evidence against Ann Jones and William Jones. Ann was charged with stealing the teapot worth seven shillings and William Jones was charged with receiving and harboring said teapot.
Ann Jones was found Guilty and received six weeks imprisonment with hard labour and William Jones was found not guilty.
This is just a few of the cases.
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Exciting stuff in those days by the look of things! ZXZ
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I know this isn't really in the Three Towns area but every now and again your told something that's really interesting. Gail was telling me the other night about Little Venice in Rhyl, built as a tourist attraction in the Victorian era under the Queens Palace Hotel. Gail say's she has been down there years ago, at that time all the plaster work and ornate arches were still intact. The place sounds amazing, they should open it up again for the public. It was only when I looked for pictures of Little Venice did I stumble on old postcards and photos of Rhyl. It really was a fantastic tourist destination in the early 1900s. Below is an extract from a blog on the Daily Post, I am unsure of the date. The full version is on the link.
The Queens Palace accommodated a large theatre and a super ballroom. In the dome was a zoo above which was a small observation tower. Below ground level was a small lake designed to look like a Venetian scene complete with gondolas. Admission to this unique attraction was a mere 2d and an extra 1d for a trip on the gondola. The walls of the building were the likeness of present day Venetian scene, but even the eight doubled arches that span the walled-in water, on which gondolas were manned by picturesquely attired Italians. The Queens entrance to little Venice still exists today and at the heart of the entrance in the East Parade of the promenade is the swan and the pale blue heart. Also said to exist is two gondolas from 1907 when it was closed off.
http://forums.dailypost.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=45945 (http://forums.dailypost.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=45945)
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This has fascinated me for years--I would love to see it. The Queen's Market always has a faintly dank smell, I bet the water is pretty iffy by now if it is still there !
I had also heard that the only surviving photo is in Rhyl Library !
Wonder if we could get in there somehow?
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The Rogark Manufacturing Company was founded in the 1950s by a local Penmaenmawr gentleman called Mr G. Rogers. When he died in 1955 his wife Mrs G E Rogers took over the business. My Nain used to dress these little dolls in traditional Welsh costume. She would sit for hours gluing bits of felt and sewing tiny clothes for them. I remember once going to meet her from a disused church on the Esplanade where she carried out this work. Boxes of half finished dolls everywhere and little bits of cloth. I only ever saw the Welsh Ladies and so wonder if the other dolls were dressed at different locations?
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This is the only photo I could find Nem.
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I've looked for the entrance to Little Venice a few times and never found it. I believe it must be somewhere on this corridor linking the Prom with the Market:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4229363014_b7d690e8a2.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4229363014/)
Entrance Arcade - Queens Market, Rhyl (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4229363014/#) by davidrobertsphotography (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
The whole Queens Building is a fascinating place, like going back in time many years. Naturally, a building with such character is currently threatened with demolition!
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/90/265039874_c34216ff0b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/265039874/)
Queen's Building, Rhyl (former Queen's Palace) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/265039874/#) by davidrobertsphotography (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4229390338_4dc5176dc2_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4229390338/)
Ornate Plasterwork - Queens Building, Rhyl (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4229390338/#) by davidrobertsphotography (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2621/4231083661_bda8ebb60f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4231083661/)
Interior - Queens Market, Rhyl (formerly Queens Ballroom) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4231083661/#) by davidrobertsphotography (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5001993739_b49a9d839e_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/5001993739/)
Inside Queen's Market, Rhyl (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/5001993739/#) by davidrobertsphotography (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/sets/72157594317884963/show/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/sets/72157594317884963/show/)
I have had this on my Favorites list for a long time-- presume it must be you Dave !!
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/sets/72157594317884963/show/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/sets/72157594317884963/show/)
I have had this on my Favorites list for a long time-- presume it must be you Dave !!
Guilty as charged! ;D
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/99/263764561_d3078fe89f_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/263764561/)
Queen's Building, Rhyl (former Queen's Palace) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/263764561/#) by davidrobertsphotography (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
The Queen's Palace opened on the 1st August 1902 and contained a ballroom with room for 2,000 couples, a theatre, a winter garden, 40 shops, a zoo, a waxworks, a native village and 'under the ballroom, an imitation Venice with real canals, gondolas and Italians'. The Queen's Palace burnt down in 1907 and was replaced by the present Queen's Building, with the Queen's Hotel, Theatre etc.
Nowadays, the Queen's Building is filled with a large indoor market (in the former Ballroom), amusement arcades, cafes, shops and bars/clubs. Compare this exterior shot with the one in this postcard from 1906:
www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/259957737/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/259957737/#)
The left-hand portion of the building is unchanged, however the right-hand portion was completely rebuilt following the fire in a more bland style. The section with the raised roofline to the right housed the Queen's Theatre, which closed in 1960. Laurel & Hardy played the Queens Theatre in the 1950s!
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Rhyl Eh?
I was taken on holiday to Rhyl in the 1970's and I thought it was great.
Fountains to play in on the sea front, good quality hotels...lots to do.
But I didn't go back until 2007, and when I did I was appalled. I never venture there now.
Attractions such as Little Venice should be cherished and preserved, all over Britain, wherever they exist.
You see it would give such a focal point for a town such as Rhyl, and a pleasant place to visit and talk about for people from far and wide.
I believe that Colwyn Bay Pier falls into this category.... once they are gone...they are GONE FOREVER.
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This is a photo of a Cursing Pot found in Holyhead in 1871. (pic 1) The pot is called a Pipkin and the piece of slate is inscribed with the words NANNY ROBERTS, you can also see pins in the picture. If you wanted to curse someone you’d take a live frog, stick some pins in it, place it in the Pipkin and having scratched the name of your intended victim on a piece of slate you would bury it somewhere, the curse was said to last until the Pipkin was found. Some even burnt the frog as a sign the curse could never be broken.
This stone was found in (Eilian's Well) Llaneilian (pic 2) also believed to be a cursing stone. In this example a wax effigy is nailed to a piece of stone with a lattice pattern scratched round the sides and RF written in the middle, RF being the initials of the person to be cursed. This Cursing Stone was found in a Well. Some Wells were said to have healing powers others were said to be Cursing Wells. How handy would that be, there you are on your way to work someones peeved you, simple... scratch their name on a piece of slate and hurl it down the Cursing Well. Brilliant, bring them back I say.
Note to self.....................find frog
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Here's a scary looking group of women the Llandudno Women's Temperance Society, c.1890s. Is it me or do they look like they could do with a large sherry.
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While these meetings were on, I bet their husbands were all out having a jar! L0L ZXZ ZXZ
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Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf ('Llywelyn, Our Last Leader') was the first Welsh speaking play licensed by the Lord Chamberlain and was performed at the Princes Theatre Llandudno on the 28th May 1903. Beriah G Evans was the producer of the show.
Dear Mr Ballinger,
You may be interested to learn - if you are not already aware of the fact - that my Llewelyn Ein Llyw Olaf is the first Play written in the Welsh language ever licensed as a Stage Play by the Lord Chamberlain. Some difficulty was experienced in getting the license for this reason. I have had photos taken of three of the Chief tableaux in the play, and enclose herewith a reproduction of one of them. I do not know whether, having regard for the fact that this is absolutely the first Welsh Play ever licensed you would care to have for the Free Library a set of the original photographs. In years to come they might prove interesting. Should you care to have them I shall have much pleasure in presenting the Free Library with a set - the only condition I would make being that each photo should have attached to it by you a notice ...' giving the name of the Play & the scene & stating the fact that it is the first of its kind ever licensed as a stage play. I should add that the particular photo from which the enclosed was reproduced does NOT do justice to the actual scene. For photographic purposes the actors had to be crowded together. With very kind regards, Ever faithfully yours,
Beriah G. Evans.'
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Here's a scary looking group of women the Landmine Women's Temperance Society, c.1890s. Is it me or do they look like they could do with a large sherry.
Now you have set me off again !
This photo has been back and forth across the pond like a you ! The archive dept have a few names on the back of the original, but not the two ladies I was looking for . Two of these ladies are the spinster sisters who lived in our house for a very long time at the turn of the last century. Myself and a lady from America have been tracing her family tree and the history of our house and have been unable to ascertain which two are her relations!
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A few weeks ago I took a look around the Cockpit (up the ginnel by Alfedos) The Cockpit was purpose built in 1760 as cock fighting was very popular 300 years ago, this example remains the only standing Cockpit in Wales apart from one in a South Wales Museum.
I stood on a barrel placed on a chair (not safe I know and I wouldn't mind but I was still too vertically challenged to see in myself) and put my camera through the window. It's basically held together by scaffolding such a shame. This could be another tourist attraction in Conwy but there are calls to demolish it now.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/01/17/call-to-save-last-cockpit-in-conwy-as-its-falls-into-decline-91466-27998186/ (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/01/17/call-to-save-last-cockpit-in-conwy-as-its-falls-into-decline-91466-27998186/)
I took a few more photos round the back....I didn't realise it was so big.
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The rear of the Cockpit. Only boards cover the roof now.
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Pendragon, well done for your daring and dedication to get those photos of the cockpit. :o
I didn't know anything about it before but what a shame that it's in such a state. :( I do hope that it gets rescued.
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I can't help wondering what else the building was used for, perhaps in the early part of the 20th Century.
It looks a little like a market hall, I hope cock fighting didn't continue up until recently?
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The Cockpit was or maybe still is owned by Margaret Williams and her family. It was used by Margarets father who was an undertaker as a chapel of rest, then a storage space for coffins apparently. Margatrets father "Bobby Box" as he was known sold the business to Lambert and Son years ago and as far as I know the Cockpit remained in Margarets possesion. I know that she owns the access to it.
This was on the Georgian Group website inc the photo.
Grade II* eighteenth century cylindrical cockpit, later converted to a chapel of rest and now redundant. Original slate conical roof and later sash windows.
Grant offered: £1000 towards emergency protection for the roof, including marking and storing surviving roof timbers and slates and erecting a temporary corrugated steel sloping roof, pending permanent repairs.
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Robert the Undertaker.... Bobby Box, I love it!! :laugh: :laugh:
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Fester, Llandudno still has its very own Peter Box and Em the Crem.
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Fester, Llandudno still has its very own Peter Box and Em the Crem.
Ha ha... I assume that is Emlyn Roberts? Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day Bri! :laugh: :laugh:
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Gwrych Castle shown in its former glory in rare archive photos
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/gallery/im-celebrity-property-gwrych-castle-19315159 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/gallery/im-celebrity-property-gwrych-castle-19315159)