Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: Osian on November 17, 2019, 03:21:22 pm
-
Good Afternoon!
Thank you for allowing me to join the Site.
I'm looking for help to confirm the location of an address in Llandudno in 1875, please. I have the Birth Certificate of my Granfather, Edward Jones. It states that he was born on the "Sixteenth May 1.20 a.m. 1875 Back George's Crescent Llandudno". The Certificate shows the Birth in the Sub-District of Creuddyn. I have taken it - rightly or wrongly - that "Back of George's Crescent' refers to 'Somerset Street'. Could anyone help me to prove or disprove that, please? Perhaps in those days, it referred to another area behind George's Crescent and that I've assumed wrongly that it refers to Somerset Street.
Any help and/or hint would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you.
Osian
-
Hi Osian we have a very good member on here, Hugo I'm sure will help you with this good luck Norman.
-
Osian
Back of George's Crescent is a literal description of what is now Somerset Street. However, between 1876 and 1910 it was formally known as Back Mostyn Street. The 1881, 1891 and 1901 Census returns should show this latter name if you are trying to find a specific property. Hope this helps.
-
Thank you for that very helpful response. Mostyn Street and George’s (or St George’s) Street both run parallel with Somerset Street - but I’ll have to dig much deeper in order to try to identify the actual address of the birthplace! Thanks again for your time and trouble.
-
Hi Osian, it can be quite confusing finding an address when the street name has changed like Cambrian has pointed out but in the Conwy Archives is a booklet giving the old street names of Llandudno and what the present street name is called.
To find out the exact property of your Grandfather it may be possible to trace it from the Rates Book or even the Census records. Some of the cottages in the back streets have retained their original Welsh names and you can trace it that way
Your Grandfather's name was interesting because in the back street behind South Parade lived another Edward Jones AKA Ted Yr Ogof by any chance was Ted in any way related to your Grandfather eg son or nephew? The reason I ask is that Ted's son Eddie is also a forum member and may be able to help you in your search
-
I'm moving this to Genealogy and Research.
-
Thanks again Hugo. I’m currently at the Dentist. Will respond later.
-
That’s an intriguing piece of information about Ted yr Ogof!! My Grandfather died in 1948. He married Jane Griffiths. His parents were John and Mary Jones (Jones being Mary’s maiden surname too).Wouldn’t it be quite something if Ted’s son and I are related?!!! Thanks again for such valuable and helpful assistance.
-
To add to what has been said, there was also another small lane, which no longer exists, between the back of St Georges Crescent and Somerset Street. My wife told me that in the early 1950's there was still a small holding located there. That being said on the Abstract of Title to our cottage dated 4th January 1890 it does refer to the street as being Somerset Street but on an attached plan of the plot it's marked as Back Mostyn Street.
-
Thank you for that piece of very useful information. I have seen Census Returns with the address listed as "Back of St George's Crescent' - but the people who lived in the properties don't appear to have a connection with my Grandfather. His Birth Certificate has the address hand-written (in beautiful script!) - but it's so frustrating no knowing any more. I'll keep on looking though. Thanks again for your time and trouble.
-
Osian, I tried to locate Edward Jones on the 1881 Census but couldn't trace him at all. Perhaps I was unlucky with my search but had John and Mary Jones moved from the back of St Georges Crescent by then?
If you look on the Census records they were done in some type of order although it is not always obvious, When you do find the person you are looking for you can scroll forwards or backwards on the Census and make a note of the house names or numbers and that may help to locate the house's present day location.
As Blongb has said Somerset Street has changed considerably over the years with properties demolished and M & S's warehouse etc being built. I drove slowly down the street when I was in Llandudno today but I could only see one cottage that had a name on it and that was called appropriately Y Bwthyn
Osian, regarding your last comment. what years have you got for Census records that show your Grandfather living there and is it possible to put them on here?
-
The Census Records that I refer to in my previous post were those that I found when trawling through sheets and sheets of records in Llandudno for circa 1875. I have not found one that shows either of his parents (John and Mary Jones) living there. Frustrating!! His mother, Mary, was from Llansannan and my Grandfather eventually moved
- and he is clearly shown as living there in 1891 (but with his Grandmother and Aunt) and again in 1901 (with his Aunt, his wife, Jane) and a younger John Jones.
Perhaps his parents died when he was quite a young boy/man. I have another Census return showing a John Jones, Mary Jones, Edward Jones nad another John Jones living in Taineyddion, Llanddulas. It confirms that the Mary Jones listed was born in Llansannan. Maybe they were in transit from Llandudno to Llansannan?!!
I genuinely appreciate your thoughts and input - they are invaluable to me. Thanks again.
-
Osian, do you know the name of Edward's Grandmother and Aunt who were living in the rear of St Georges Crescent as it may make it easier to find the census record for him?
I'll pop back to the Library asap and have another pop at finding the records
-
All I currently know is that Edward was born in Llandudno - at back of George’s Crescent. His parents, John and Mary Jones had to have resided there at the time of Edward’s birth - for it to be recorded on his birth cert. When he lived with his grandmother - Jane Wynne and his Aunt, Eleanor/Elin/Elen Jones - it was in what became my own home in Llansannan. Perhaps they moved to Llanddulas (I’m speculating here) and then both parents passed away and he was raised by his Granny and his Aunt.
Thank you again for trying so much to help me. Your efforts are truly appreciated.
-
Hi Osian, I have been in the Conwy Archives today and had a look at a number of records but I'm stumped
First of all I looked at the earliest street index they have for Llandudno and that was for 1911. Neither Jane Wynne or Elinor Jones was listed but it is possibly that they had died by then
Next I had a look at the 1881 poor rates book as it was called. It had the tenants and owners of all the properties listed in it for what is now Somerset Street but again Jane Wynne or Elinor Jones was listed in it
There were some Jones' living there but only the men's names were listed
There was no trace of Jane Wynne in the St Tudno or Llanrhos Church graveyards, but there was an Ellen Jones of 4 St George's Crescent who died on 27th Oct 1928? aged 84. She had been married to a John Jones and they had previously lived at Ty Draw
They were both buried in St Tudno's Church at grave A056, John died 10th April 1992 aged 48
I had a look at the Llandudno Baptism records from 1875 to 1883 and there was no entry for Edward Jones in the Register
After looking at the paper records I tried on Find My Past and I could not trace Edward Jones on any Census at all and for that matter couldn't trace Jane Wynne or Elinor Jones either so it's a mystery Perhaps someone may be able to trace them but crucially you want the 1881 Census for Jane Wynne or Elinor Jones at the Llandudno address
-
I have tried to find both Elinor Jones and Jane Wynne, living in Llandudno in 1881, but not successful .
-
Thanks Brian for having a go at tracing both of those people, I had tried numerous ways without any luck and I was starting to think that I was missing something.
Perhaps Osian can post those Census records he has and it may help in the search
-
Thank you for all that time and effort. As I stated in my previous post, Jane Wynne and Eleanor Jones lived in Llansannan not Llandudno. The only people that I’m interested in that lived Back of George’s Crescent are John and Mary Jones and their baby son, Edward. His father was a Butcher.
One or both parents must have died - because Edward was raised with his Grandmother (Jane) and his Aunt (Eleanor) in my family home in Llansannan. There is a Census record showing people with same names and matching dates living for a time in Llanddulas - but, thus far, I’ve not been able to find if they are my relatives nor why they’re living in Llanddulas. Finding Death Certificates for people named John and Mary Jones produces reams and reams of possibilites!!
-
The Census Records that I refer to in my previous post were those that I found when trawling through sheets and sheets of records in Llandudno for circa 1875. I have not found one that shows either of his parents (John and Mary Jones) living there. Frustrating!! His mother, Mary, was from Llansannan and my Grandfather eventually moved
- and he is clearly shown as living there in 1891 (but with his Grandmother and Aunt) and again in 1901 (with his Aunt, his wife, Jane) and a younger John Jones.
I am a bit confused about a previous posting you made Osian as it says that he ( Edward ) was living with his Grandmother (Jane Wynne ) and Aunt ( Eleanor Jones ) in Llandudno in 1891 but I can't find any of them there and by the sounds of it neither can BrianP.
There were four Jones families living in the street, Evan, Frederick, David and a John Jones who lived at Burlington Cottage. I am not 100% certain that Burlington Cottage was actual in the back of St George's Crescent.
Before I do any other searches it would be appreciated if you could post on here the Llandudno Census records that you have so that it makes it easier for me to look in certain records
The town of Llandudno in those days had two parishes Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and the rear of St George's Crescent is only less than 200 yards away so it is possible that some records may be in the Parish of Eglwysrhos
-
A million and more thanks for all your endeavours in this regard. I'm extremely impressed with the effort that has been made to try and help me find my Great, Great Grandparents and to locate the actual property where my Grandfather, Edward Jones, was born in 1875.
When I referred to Census Records for Llandudno, I was merely confirming that I had actually seen the address "Back of George's Crescent" listed - none of them had any connection whatsoever with my search. This was just to show that my Grandfather's birthplace could have been listed as "Back of George's Crescent' and not as "Back of Mostyn Street".
The 1891 Census shows Edward Jones living in Llansannan - with his Grandmother and with his Aunt. What happened to his parents since his birth in Llandudno? Did they move to Llanddulas - as a Census Return shows a Mary, John, Edward and another John (my Grandfather's brother) living in Tai Newyddion, Llanddulas. This Return also confirms that this Mary Jones was born in Llansannan - which got me thinking that, perhaps, John and Mary Jones sadly passed away shortly afterwards and that Edward was brought up in Llansannan by his Grandmother, Jane Wynne, and by his Aunt, Eleanor Jones.
All that I am trying to do is to uncover the journey and its circumstances that my Grandfather undertook from his birthplace in Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno, to Llansannan. To accomplish that task, I need to find a record of him and his parents living in Llandudno circa 1875 - a record of his Birth Certificate in the County Archives and on 'Ancestry' and/or 'Find my Past' would be a great start (even though I have his Birth Certificate!).
Again, thank you most sincerely for what you've done. Please don't let me take any more of your valuable time. I'll visit the County Archives again next week and will also check records for John and Mary Jones too. I'll visit the Church in Llanddulas - to see if I can locate graves for a John and Mary Jones.
Cheers to you all. You are first calss at what you do.
-
Osian if you are going to the Archive next week give them a ring first, as they are preparing to move to the Conwy Culture Centre in Conwy Town & it's opening early next month, they have cut the normal opening days to prepare for the move.
-
Meleri, it's only open now on Wednesdays and Thursdays and they are having a "leaving do" on the 13th December 2019. Unfortunately I'm unable to go there on that date
-
Osian, it's nice to try and help someone but apart from that I do enjoy looking at old records so if you want any help or advice then please do not hesitate to post anything on here
You have mentioned visiting the Church in Llanddulas to try and locate the graves but an easier option would be to visit the Conwy Archives first of all. They have burial records for each Church in the Conwy County and the Indexes list all the people who have been buried and have headstones. The indexes are good, the names of the people are listed alphabetical so are easy to find, they also list places where the deceased lived and give a grave number and location so it could save you a lot of time.
When I go back again to the Archives I'll have another look and if anything turns up then it'll be posted on here. When I had a look at the rates book there were a number of stables in the street but now the stables have gone and been replaced by car parks
-
Osian, I went to the Library this morning to have a go on Ancestry and Find My Past ( it's free there ) and found those Census records for 1881 and 1891 that you refer to and I also found the 1871 Census for Jane Wynne. Mary Jones was listed there as a niece aged 18 ( born C1853 )
In the 1881 Census John and Mary are married and living at 2 Tai Newyddion with Edward and John. Unfortunately I didn't make a note of the town as I had to dash off before the Traffic Warden came around. You mentioned that it was in Llanddulas but I haven't been able to find that address on Google but as John was born in Eirias I did find an address there, that old Township of Eirias is now Old Colwyn and the cottages are in Tan Lan.
I'll have to go back to the Library to check on that
In 1871 Mary was single so she must have married John sometime between 1871 and 1875 but I haven't found out when. After the date of marriage they must have been living in Llandudno at that time and then moved on to Tai Newyddion
What happened to the family after that, that resulted in Edward being with his Grandmother is a mystery but I did a lot of various searches online and the name John Jones bricklayer of Eirias came up on the other searches I did, but which one it was I'm not sure so I'll go back again to check
-
There are street directories, plus trade directories of Llandudno going back for some years. It might be worth having a look at those when you visit the archives. They usually have a name index as well as a street index. I know they used to keep some in the library in Llandudno too.
There would be some for Colwyn Bay area but as that is under Denbighshire, they would be in the archives for Denbighshire I presume. There may be some in the library in Colwyn Bay.
Helig
-
Hi Helig, those street indexes are good but they only have a small number of them and the earliest is 1911. In fact the indexes cover the Three Towns area Colwyn Bay, Llandudno and Conwy and as you have said are usually an easy way to trace people and property
I've looked at the rates book for 1882 but Edward was living in Tai Newyddion by 1881 by then and the earlier rates book is for 1872 so unless John and Mary had married before then they won't appear in that earlier rates book either.
I'm going to look at a couple of things again to try and help Osian put the pieces together
-
Osian, I've been back to the Library and had a look at some Census records, you may be aware of them but I'll post the info on here in any case. What can be confusing is the fact that names of places have changed over the years, especially the area from Rhos on Sea to Old Colwyn.
What I looked at first was the 1881 Census that you know about and 2 Tai Newyddion is in Old Colwyn and not Llanddulas. The Church near there is St Catherine's
I looked at the 1871 Census for John Jones and found him living with John Davies aged 30 and his wife Elizabeth. They lived at 6 Church Walks Llandrillo yn Rhos and that is where the confusion sets in. Nowadays Llandrillo Yn Rhos is Rhos On Sea but the Parish Of Llandrillo covered a vast area. I think that this Church Walks was in Old Colwyn and very near to Tai Newyddion
Anyway John Jones then aged 16 and from Eirias was working and living as a butcher with John Davies
I then had a look at the 1891 Census and found John Jones, Mary Jones and John T ( may be Thomas ) who was aged 7. They lived at 17 Ivy Street Colwyn Bay and John was a Butcher
In the 1901 Census I found Mary Jones who was then aged 46 and a widow. She had moved back to Llansannan and was working as a housekeeper at home
At the Chapel address of Mount Pleasant Llansannan was Robert Vaughan a widower aged 80 and retired farmer born in Llansannan. Also there was Robert's son William Vaughan, a single man aged 46 and he was born in Llansannan too. According to the Census records all three just spoke only Welsh. There was no John Thomas Jones who would have been 17 then at this address
Now all that info doesn't help to solve Osian's original request about " Rear of St George's Crescent" but it would be interesting to find out when John and Mary got married because the only other rate book available in the Archives was for 1872. If Edward was born there in 1875 then most families of that time had their child Baptised and usually that was quite soon after the birth. They lived in the Parish of Llandudno and I couldn't find any entry there but it is possible that the Baptism was done in Llanrhos Church instead so I'll have a look at that register when I next go there
-
There is a marriage on Freereg, St Tudno, Llandudno, John Jones married Mary Jones on 26/09/1874. John was aged 20 and Mary was 22. I don't know if that fits with their ages on the census returns. Looking at Hugo's last post, I doubt this is right.
Another marriage in Colwyn St Catherine, 06/04/1869, John Jones to Mary Humphreys. No other details given.
I see that Mary Jones was born Llansannan, so it would be possible they married in her parish.
Is it possible their marriage was in a non conformist chapel? Likewise a baptism for Edward Jones? That would explain why his baptism couldn't be found. From the details on Genuki, is appears that there are no records for the non conformist chapels in Llandudno in the archives.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandudno (https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandudno)
Helig
-
Thanks very much for your search Helig, it is really appreciated and may be very helpful.
We can discount the marriage at St Catherine's Church Old Colwyn in 1869 as both people were single in the 1871 Census also Mary's maiden name was Jones as was her married name
However the marriage in Llandudno in 1874 looks promising. The ages are very similar to those on the Census records and are worth following up. We know that John was younger than Mary and Census ages are really just a guide as they can be out by a year or so
If they married at St Tudno's that would explain the Llandudno connection and it would mean that there are records of Banns etc there. The dates also correspond possibly with the birth of Edward. :-[
Anyway it'll be worth another trip to the Archives
Thanks again
-
Thanks Helig for your previous post and as a result of it I was able to find the entry in the Marriage Register.
It's not the definite proof of the marriage between Osian's relatives but it looks positive and it is certainly something to work on. I made more searches and found that Southerland House where John was living was in Mostyn Street Llandudno. Now Mary's address is not so easy to pinpoint as there were a few houses of that name in various Streets but the most probable is at Penmaen View, 38 Mostyn Street Llandudno as it was a business address but with rooms over the place ( that was also the former address of Mostyn Estates )
I looked at the Baptism records for Eglwysrhos and there was no entry for Edward in that Register
-
Just noticed a spelling mistake and it should be Sutherland House not Southerland House
-
Sutherland House is 155 Mostyn Street.
-
Thanks very much for finding that out Cambrian $good$
-
I am pleased the information was useful. There are a few things that make it a possible marriage for Osian's ancestors. The fact that both their fathers were named Edward and, what appears to be their first born son, was named Edward. John Jones is shown as a butcher and I recall his occupation was given as butcher in one of the census returns. In a post dated 22/11/2019, Osian said that Edward Jones, father of John, was also a butcher.
The two witnesses to the marriage were Edward Jones, presumably father of either John, or Mary, plus Mary Jones. I imagine Mary Jones would have been the mother of one of them, does Osian know if that is correct?
Helig.
-
Helig, the more I think about it the more certain I am that it is Osian's relatives. Apart from all the points that you have raised, the age of John could easily agree with his age of 20 stated in the marriage register.
In the 1871 Census John's age was given as 16, but as the Census was taken on the 2nd April 1871 there is a 75 per cent chance that his birthday in 1871 was after that date.
So assuming that it is correct, if John's birthday was anywhere in between the 3rd April 1871 and the 26th September 1871 then he would have been 20 when he married.
I'm had found John's entry in the 1861 Census but couldn't get the info I wanted as I don't subscribe to any of the Ancestry sites. The key word in tracing him was Eirias. I'll look again next week but finding the house in Somerset is going to be very difficult indeed
-
Hugo
In the 1860s there was a Burlington House in Mostyn Street roughly in the area backing onto Somerset Street. I'm not sure what exactly it was or when the name changed but it could well be that Burlington Cottage was either behind it - parallel in Somerset Street - or formed an extension off the house itself. A similar case is the Somerset Hotel which has Somerset Cottage immediately behind it.
Its a shame that the names of so many of the properties in Mostyn Street are now disused and forgotten. One of the few which still seems to carry its name is WH Smith - Penrhyn House.
-
Thanks Cambrian, that's interesting to know
I found out from the Rates Book of 1882 that a John Jones was living at Burlington Cottage but from the Census records of 1881 that Osian's John was living in Tai Newyddion in Old Colwyn so that John in Llandudno could not be Osian's relative
I don't know where else to look now as the rates books for 1875 to 1880 are missing and I remember that Mostyn Estates had a big fire some time ago and a lot of records were lost in the fire
The address in Somerset Street mat have to remain a mystery but at least Osian knows that the street is Somerset Street as you have posted previously
The layout in Bodafon Street is similar to the way you have described in Somerset Street
-
Hello Hugo,
I have struggled to find John Jones in the census returns up to now. Ancestry is having a spell of giving people from everywhere but the place put in the search. I think I have him in the 1861 census, the family is living at 3 High St, Colwyn, the household is as follows:
Edward Jones, head, married, age 34, Labourer, born Llanelian yn Rhos, Denbighshire.
Ellinor Jones, wife, age 32, born Llansantfraidd Glan Conwy
Edward Jones, son, age 12, scholar, born as above.
Elisbeth Jones, daughter, age 10, scholar, born Llandrillo, Caerns.
John Jones, son, age 6, born as above.
David Jones, son, age 3, born as above.
Do I have the right person? Can you let me know please?
I have found him in the 1871 now too. I note that in the 1881, John Jones is shown as a Bricklayer.
Helig
-
Thanks Helig, that looks very much like the right person. The age is correct, where he was born is too and he lived in the area where we found him in 1871,
As I have mentioned before, Llandrillo Yn Rhos covered a big area from Rhos on Sea to Old Colwyn and a bit more too. Norman Tucker wrote a book called Colwyn Bay and its origins and tells everything about the area and the history Some of the old boundaries go back to the time of Edward 1
-
As Hugo says, Llandrillo was once a very extensive Ecclesiastical Parish. Over the years bits were hived off to form other parishes. More recently, in 1844 and 1872 Colwyn, Eirias, and part of the township of Cilgwyn were transferred to the new parish of St Catherine (Old Colwyn). In 1893 the parish of Colwyn Bay was created from Rhiw, Llwydgoed (Bryn y Maen) and the rest of Cilgwyn. At that point all that was left of the original Llandrillo were the townships of Mochdre and Dinerth - and even Mochdre was eventually subsumed into Llanrhos.
Hugo - good to hear Norman Tucker's name mentioned. In addition to his scholarly works - mainly on the Civil War - his historical novels, centred on North Wales, are worth a read and so better written than modern novels.
-
I had a look in the Library today and the Census records for 1861 and after looking at all the possibilities I have come to the same conclusion as you Helig
Osian seems to have disappeared but although we haven't been able to find the house Edward lived in we have confirmed the correct street and found relatives in the 1861 Census up to the 1901 Census
-
This is the trouble when you have a date to go on but it is in between the census returns and the people have moved away. I think that it is going to be impossible to find any more here.
Helig.